Fair Trade, Organic, Eco-Friendly or Price

[Nineteen Canteen]

Usual debate in the news this morning about fair trade vs. price this time with regard to bananas. Some supermarkets may be selling them as a loss leader at around 7p each and as a result are having a negative impact on producers who can't grow them at that price. Do you care if the supermarket still pays the producer the same price and sells them to us at a loss?

 

The view of the general public in good old BBC fashion is shown as split with those saying who cares as long as they are cheap and they can provide their family with one of their 5 a-day cheaply and easily and those who will not buy bananas unless fair trade ones are available.

 

So where do you stand ethically with regards all your purchases from groceries, white good, cars, houses, energy sources, etc?

 

Personally, and being totally honest about it, I am firstly driven by want and then price and ethical considerations never come into it whatsoever. Surely, the ethical questions are not the concern of 1 consumer but those who have the power to remove the unethical choice namely the producers, retailers, governments and those charged with our technological future.

 

So how many fair trade insistent, allotment owning, cob owning, mortgageless, Prius driving, hunter wearing greenies do we have on the forum?

[Manuel]

Consumers are powerful in these circumstances and can initiate change. Just look at the free range egg market which by most standards you'd describe as booming and now outselling battery eggs. Do you still know anybody who buys battery? Leave it to the government (that you most likely didn't even vote for) if you want, but most sensible people like to make their own decisions where they can about how they live their life morally and I don't see why this stops applying when it comes to the purchase of foods, whether grown nationally or internationally.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Consumers are powerful in these circumstances and can initiate change. Just look at the free range egg market which by most standards you'd describe as booming and now outselling battery eggs. Do you still know anybody who buys battery? Leave it to the government (that you most likely didn't even vote for) if you want, but most sensible people like to make their own decisions where they can about how they live their life morally and I don't see why this stops applying when it comes to the purchase of foods, whether grown nationally or internationally.

 

'Free Range' is that where they removed the cages from the barns? Not sure we even know what that means as it's certainly not half a dozen chickens running around in a garden with a little wooden house. Price is king unless you can afford to be 'ethical' and eggs for me is no different. Taste could be a driver and I have tried one supermarket's silverside joint organically reared in the Uk and their much cheaper Argentinian alternative. There is no discernable difference but I don't have the taste buds of a wine or tea taster but do have the bank balance that needs to smell money.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

but most sensible people like to make their own decisions where they can about how they live their life morally and I don't see why this stops applying when it comes to the purchase of foods, whether grown nationally or internationally.

 

I agree, equally it is about value for money for the product you purchase, so within 19's categories it is a bonus if some or all exist in your chosen product.

In respect of the supermarket making a loss on a particular product, I care not, they will make it up ten fold on other products, in the current climate it is still about price for me, selfish ? perhaps, but sympathy is a luxury I struggle to afford right now.

[TopGun]

I don't buy cheap bananas. However, I'm not keen on bananas anyway.

[Ponty]

Some Fair Trade products taste awful, which doesn't help their cause. For example, the coffee is terrible.

[norwaysaint]

Buying anything fair trade is just more nanny-state, handwringing, treehugging, wishy washy, liberal lefty, politically correct nonsense. But that's new labour for you I suppose.

[View From The Top]

I buy fair trade wherever possible.

 

All Co-op own brand tea is fair trade.

 

I also bank with them due to their fair trade policies.

[Scummer]

Some Fair Trade products taste awful, which doesn't help their cause. For example, the coffee is terrible.

 

There's no one thing called 'fair trade coffee' though is there? There will be loads of coffees that are fair trade.

[Ponty]

Maybe so but I'm sure there is a "Fair Trade" brand.

[Pancake]

Maybe so but I'm sure there is a "Fair Trade" brand.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairtrade_certification

 

Its not a brand, its a certification.

[bungle]

Buying anything fair trade is just more nanny-state, handwringing, treehugging, wishy washy, liberal lefty, politically correct nonsense. But that's new labour for you I suppose.

 

Considering it's got nothing to do with the government, one can only assume you are just an attention-seeking mong.

[Ponty]

Well I can't remember any branding on the packet other than the big FT logo, so I assume it was a store brand then. It would've been from the CoOp.

[aintforever]

I think governments should ensure that all products are fair trade to be honest.

[the stain]

Fair trade where possible. Ought to be across the board but it's hard work as a consumer to do all the research on every product. You've got to give the producer a decent deal IMO, but I'm from farming stock so I probably would say that.

 

Not too fussed about the 'organic' thing. It's such a catch-all term that it's pretty much meaningless, unless the producer can define on each item exactly how the product is and is not 'organic'.

[Guest Dark Sotonic Mills]

Buying anything fair trade is just more nanny-state, handwringing, treehugging, wishy washy, liberal lefty, politically correct nonsense. But that's new labour for you I suppose.

 

What a load of complete nonsense. Unless you are being tongue in cheek I can't see how being humanitarian is any way the reserve of the left of centre. being paid a fair amount for goods and so enabling your own family to eat and allow your children a level of schooling is a basic right.

 

Or maybe, just maybe, a little of the Norwegian mentality is rubbing off on you and you are losing sight of the British sense of fair play.

 

Oh, and the supermarkets could easily pay more for their food and other goods without having to pass on the cost to the consumer. They make obscene amounts of profits anyway.

[Minty]

Oh, and the supermarkets could easily pay more for their food and other goods without having to pass on the cost to the consumer. They make obscene amounts of profits anyway.

 

Indeed. I would heartily recommend the book 'Tescopoly' to anyone with an interest in this kind of thing. It discusses not just the basic issue of price and profit but a whole host of interlinked issues, such a growers and producers being screwed, and the long-term effects of the supermarkets dominance, and how the search for 'cheap' food is a destructive and entirely false economy.

 

On the wider point, I always try to buy local produce first and foremost, from farm shops and high street shops, such as local bakeries, butchers and fruit and veg shops, and then I but fair trade if i need or want something that cannot be bought locally. Some items are neither, but many nowadays.

 

I can afford this, not because I'm particularly rich, but because I'm not greedy and I don't buy things I don't really need. I also don't waste lots of food. In actual fact, my food bill is pretty much the same as it used to be when I used to buy lots of crap from a supermarket, except now I'm supporting the local economy rather than the shareholders of supermarket chains with zero ethical values, eating better quality food, using less resources (packaging, transportation etc) and doing what I think lots more people will need to do in the future, when food security and peak oil become tangible problems to those who prefer to ignore them at present.

 

It's a bit sad that as a result I'll be considered a 'fair trade insistent, allotment owning, cob owning, mortgageless, Prius driving, hunter wearing greeny', especially bearing in mind only one of those statements is actually true. I just consider it common sense if my grandchildren and their children are to inherit a planet that can actually support them, rather than maintaining the greed and consumerism that many selfishly enjoy.

Edited 12 October, 2009 by Minty

[Sheaf Saint]

Well I can't remember any branding on the packet other than the big FT logo, so I assume it was a store brand then. It would've been from the CoOp.

 

That's probably about right because the Co-op do a lot of fairtrade stuff nowadays. But Scummer is absolutely right when he says that there is no one brand. Lots of different brands and supermarkets offer fairtrade coffees now, and some of them are very good indeed. Try the Cafe Direct ones if you can get them (I know Sainsburys sells them).

[Sheaf Saint]

On the point of the main subject, I am pretty much in total agreement with Minty. I try to buy local produce as often as possible, and there is a market within walking distance of my house that allows me to do that thankfully.

 

Price is obviously a big concern to me, especially as I am out of a job at the moment, it's amazing how much I can save on my weekly shopping bill if I realy try. But I certainly do take ethical considerations into account when I buy stuff. For instance, I make it a policy never to set foot in a Shell petrol station due to the shameful and downright inhumane business practises they employ in Africa, and their recent £100m out-of-court settlement which ensured that their involvement in the murder of demonstrators in the Niger Delta would not be exposed in a public legal proceeding. A more unethical corporation you will be hard pushed to find.

[BotleySaint]

Various fair trade products do taste awful. You have to "shop around" to find the good ones. But even they sometimes change, like Geobars. They used to be really nice but they've changed the recipe and now they taste gross.

 

Maybe they should label non-fairtrade products with an "Unfairly Traded" sticker so people can see each time they buy that they are ripping people off... but most people would rather turn a blind eye as long as "i'm alright" .. ?

[St Landrew]

On the point of the main subject, I am pretty much in total agreement with Minty. I try to buy local produce as often as possible, and there is a market within walking distance of my house that allows me to do that thankfully.

 

Price is obviously a big concern to me, especially as I am out of a job at the moment, it's amazing how much I can save on my weekly shopping bill if I realy try. But I certainly do take ethical considerations into account when I buy stuff. For instance, I make it a policy never to set foot in a Shell petrol station due to the shameful and downright inhumane business practises they employ in Africa, and their recent £100m out-of-court settlement which ensured that their involvement in the murder of demonstrators in the Niger Delta would not be exposed in a public legal proceeding. A more unethical corporation you will be hard pushed to find.

 

Tesco runs into second place IMO. Which is why I don't shop there at all. Zero. Nothing. Not even their recycling machine/regime, which is a joke in itself.

 

EDIT: Ah, I've now read up the thread a little more. You obviously all know about Tesco.

[Thedelldays]

I do not buy products that have a fair trade logo. In fact I don't even check.

[bridge too far]

Fair trade / organic for me if it's available. And organic, barn eggs taste so much better than anything else. I try to buy locally where possible (Waitrose devote a section to locally grown produce now).

 

Ethical banking too - with the Co-op - about the only bank not requiring a bail-out from the government and it doesn't invest in dubious regimes / businesses.

 

But I don't hug trees, wear green wellies, have an allotment or drive a Prius.

[badgerx16]

Cafe Direct coffee, FairTrade tea ( 'normal', green, and roibus ), free range eggs ( during the shorter winter days when my own hens don't lay ), and free range chicken meat. Also, my wife won't buy New Zealand lamb due to the fact that a lot of it is butchered in Halal style, which she feels is unnecessarily cruel. If I do buy bananas they will be fair trade also.

 

I also do not hug trees, ( though I have several in my gardens front and rear, hopefully got enough space that I don't need an allotment ), my wellies are black, and I use rechargeable batteries wherever possible - for which I would choose a supplier with hydro-electric generating capacity if I could get it.

( And I drive a diesel; good or bad you can decide, but that was a purely economic decision. Wouldn't have a Prius if they were giving them away ).

 

Wish I did have a ( Welsh ) Cob ( or 2 ), and at the same time wish I didn't have my mortgage.

[nathan]

Fair Trade in itself is a false economy. We should be encouraging these farmers to sell to their local community and not shipping products half way across the world. The damage to the environment and local communities is made worse by exporting these type of goods.

 

...but to be honest, I don't care. If it tastes better (such as free range meat from Farmer's Choice delivery), then I'll buy it. Not simply because it has a little sticky label on the side.

[Seaford Saint]

Fairtrade for anything I buy, always buy free range eggs or chickens that roam around a bitetc. The best for the animals and the best for farmers wherever they may be in the world. Tuna caught by a rod and pole as well, courtesy of Waitrose. I shop at the farmers market whenever we are around on a Sunday. I walk to work....

 

I catch my own trout:)

[benjii]

I like Tesco.

 

Sainsbury's carrier bags are rubbish - you have to double bag everything.

 

Asda is full of fat mothers and their brats.

 

If I had some good local shops selling lovely "The Good Life" produce on my doorstep I would use them. But I don't and I care more about my own personal convenience than a farmer in a far off land.

[Special K]

I'll support locally produced food first. Then i'll use price, convenience and taste before i consider fair trade goods. The world of the ethical consumer is fraught with double standards and hypocrisy so best leave it alone, imho.

[Minty]

Fair Trade in itself is a false economy. We should be encouraging these farmers to sell to their local community and not shipping products half way across the world. The damage to the environment and local communities is made worse by exporting these type of goods.

 

...but to be honest, I don't care. If it tastes better (such as free range meat from Farmer's Choice delivery), then I'll buy it. Not simply because it has a little sticky label on the side.

 

Your first point is quite correct, we should support local food first and foremost, which I alluded to earlier. However, whilst food is imported and exported, and it will be for some time, genuine Fair Trade goods are generally much better than those that are not in those circumstances, for reasons already stated.

 

Supermarkets won't take the lead in this, they'll simply supply the demand, and so whilst some customers want out-of-season fruit and veg that can only be sourced abroad, they will go and get it and pay as little as possible for it. Fair Trade is still better in these circumstances, and it is better to have that option than not-at-all.

 

Special K - you're right, there are double standards and hypocrisy in the world of the ethical consumer, mainly thanks to those who claim to be ethical

but who are not. But it is still better to act as best you can, on the information you have, than not at all IMO.

[Junction 9]

I endeavour to buy fair trade whenever possible but there is still very little choice in this country. It's also impossible to say to what it extent it actually helps those people involved, you just have to trust that is does I suppose.

There will always be a large section of society who really don't give a toss, as this thread proves.

[Patrick Bateman]

I shop in my local farm shop for meat, fruit and veg and therefore tend to stick to what's seasonal. It's not cheap, in fact compared to nipping in to any supermarket it's hideously expensive, but I'd rather keep the local economy going.

 

I do use supermarkets, I'm not brand loyal, but prefer Sainsburys, however I don't really bother with Fair Trade items as I buy what I think tastes nice; Twinings, Yorkshire Tea, Tea Pigs and various other smaller brands.

One of the Co-op Fair Trade wines is nice, but I don't buy it for that reason, I buy it because it tastes nice.

 

I grow my own veg, I have a pair of green wellies and I drive totally the opposite to a Prius. Am I confused, or are stereotypes just boll*cks?

[benjii]

I shop in my local farm shop for meat, fruit and veg and therefore tend to stick to what's seasonal. It's not cheap, in fact compared to nipping in to any supermarket it's hideously expensive, but I'd rather keep the local economy going.

 

I do use supermarkets, I'm not brand loyal, but prefer Sainsburys, however I don't really bother with Fair Trade items as I buy what I think tastes nice; Twinings, Yorkshire Tea, Tea Pigs and various other smaller brands.

One of the Co-op Fair Trade wines is nice, but I don't buy it for that reason, I buy it because it tastes nice.

 

I grow my own veg, I have a pair of green wellies and I drive totally the opposite to a Prius. Am I confused, or are stereotypes just boll*cks?

 

I think you are normal.

[Wiltshire Saint]

I have come round to thinking that Fair trade is not the way forward if the aim is to help producers in Less developed countries (and I can think of no other reason for buying this stuff). What we should be doing is pushing governments of the world tp put their money where their mouths are and practice free trade (that is trade without restriction). If we allow poorer countries to compete with us on a level playing field then their standard of living will rise naturally, as is the capitalist way. Unfortunately, although we, as rich countries, go round telling everyone that capitalism is the way forward and that the free market is the answer, we do not practice this because we actively stop countries from trading on an equal basis. Tariffs and quotas are all designed to stop foreign competition and often target the poor countries in order to keep them subordinate to us.

 

Fair Trade is a conscience salver for individuals but for any real benefit to be felt action must be taken at governmental level.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I have come round to thinking that Fair trade is not the way forward if the aim is to help producers in Less developed countries (and I can think of no other reason for buying this stuff). What we should be doing is pushing governments of the world tp put their money where their mouths are and practice free trade (that is trade without restriction). If we allow poorer countries to compete with us on a level playing field then their standard of living will rise naturally, as is the capitalist way. Unfortunately, although we, as rich countries, go round telling everyone that capitalism is the way forward and that the free market is the answer, we do not practice this because we actively stop countries from trading on an equal basis. Tariffs and quotas are all designed to stop foreign competition and often target the poor countries in order to keep them subordinate to us.

 

Fair Trade is a conscience salver for individuals but for any real benefit to be felt action must be taken at governmental level.

 

Too true, if the common agricultural policy and US farming subsidies were designed more effectively there'd be no need for fair trade for lots of goods.

[bungle]

One of the other great ironies is that you get people in the supermarket who actively go and buy the fair trade coffee, and then they will go and buy a milk produced by a British farmer who is losing 15% on each litre he produces, because the supermarkets just keep shafting our dairy farmers.

[Gemmel]

One of the other great ironies is that you get people in the supermarket who actively go and buy the fair trade coffee, and then they will go and buy a milk produced by a British farmer who is losing 15% on each litre he produces, because the supermarkets just keep shafting our dairy farmers.

 

 

Why would a farmer lose 15% on every litre he produces and carry on trading

[bungle]

Why would a farmer lose 15% on every litre he produces and carry on trading

 

He has no option. The supermarkets decide what the price is, and the farmers have no choice. Supermarkets are destroying the farming industry in this country.