Pards on Goals on Sunday

[benjii]

Are you implying that the dinosaurs were all mad?

 

What about ladybirds?

 

Ladybirds are brilliant. Give them time and leave them to get on with it and they disappear.

 

If there is a God then ladybirds are his greatest achievement.

[Marsdinho]

Sorry Marsdinho, I missed that.

 

Mind you, if he was born four years after Jesus' reputed death he's pretty close to being an eye witness as plenty of people around at the time would have seen him. I was born soon after Hitler died but i don't doubt his existence...

 

 

Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop. He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church [Remsberg]. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings. In his Ecclesiastical History, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Vol. 8, chapter 2). In his Praeparatio Evangelica, he includes a chapter titled, "How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived" (book 12, chapter 32).

[krissyboy31]

Take, for example, Eusebius who served as an ecclesiastical church historian and bishop. He had great influence in the early Church and he openly advocated the use of fraud and deception in furthering the interests of the Church [Remsberg]. The first mention of Jesus by Josephus came from Eusebius (none of the earlier church fathers mention Josephus' Jesus). It comes to no surprise why many scholars think that Eusebius interpolated his writings. In his Ecclesiastical History, he writes, "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity." (Vol. 8, chapter 2). In his Praeparatio Evangelica, he includes a chapter titled, "How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived" (book 12, chapter 32).

 

Great Player! Up there with Puskas an Pele IMO!

[mikec]

I know this is completely off-topic for the forum but may I say how refreshing it is to read an intelligent, well-reasoned and tolerant discussion on this issue from both sides. When religion is discussed on most internet forums it usually degenerates pretty quickly to insults and closed minds - come to think of it, a bit like some of the footy-related discussions on here

[benjii]

I know this is completely off-topic for the forum but may I say how refreshing it is to read an intelligent, well-reasoned and tolerant discussion on this issue from both sides. When religion is discussed on most internet forums it usually degenerates pretty quickly to insults and closed minds - come to think of it, a bit like some of the footy-related discussions on here

 

Maybe that's the key!

 

Football discussion should be reserved for fora on, for example, flower arranging and bell-ringing.

 

Politics should be discussed on fora about children's TV and insects.

 

Things would be a whole lot more civil!

[trousers]

Ladybirds are brilliant. Give them time and leave them to get on with it and they disappear.

 

If there is a God then ladybirds are his greatest achievement.

 

You're conveniently forgetting Chesney Hawkes there, no doubt to promote your ladybird agenda. Talk about vested interests.

[david in sweden]

Seriously though WTF is this still doing on the main board? and how in hell did we get here from Alan Pardew on Goals on Sunday, could understand if he was on 'Songs of Praise'

 

that music still makes me think I should be doing my geography homework

 

 

A good question Sussex, I was in on an early reply to a question about Marcus Liebherr (who is a believing Christian, apparantly ) when CHAPEL questioned whether ML was happy to spend millions on Prem-League players salaries (when we return to Prem, that is )....when his personal BILLIONS could be better spent on relieving Third World poverty. ..except we don't know if he does so already in some form, or other.

 

Since then ...the thread has taken on a life of it's own, and I don't think it's going away....at least I hope not because I for one am enjoying it.

 

You're right that the football element has disappeared from this one, but there are dozens of other topics you can look at if it bothers you. Just ignore this one. I often ignore other threads I have no interest in.

Edited 15 October, 2009 by david in sweden

[david in sweden]

I like the way she says the Hebrew word bara doesn't mean 'to create' but it means 'to seperate'.. then she later says 'bara' does mean 'to create'. ???????

 

This really is down to semantics. Quite often words take on another meaning with different generations. (A simple modern example is the word Gay),

However, it should be remembered that the Bible wasn't written in English, but in two other languages Aramaic (OT) and Greek (NT) then later translated into Latin until we have the King James version (early 1600's) .

Genesis wasn't written as scientific work, but a spiritual one - and Moses certainly wasn't a scientist (though it describes Creation in some real terms).

 

Believers / non-believers alike are equally obsessed with the Creation/Creator and the 6 days mentioned. The emphasis being on the word " day "(which we regard as a period of 24 hours). Aramaic, (like English) had words that were used in several situations. Later, in different texts, it quotes " a day to the Lord is as a thousand years " and in the " Noah's day " (so that the 24hr. time concept obviously isn't used in the same way). " 6 days " might easily be translated as 6 ..million / billion years

- if scientists want to claim that much, but ironically Moses " order " of the Creation is fairly clear. How did he manage that ?

 

Other uses of " day " indicate that in is translated as " a period of time..or " an era, or an age ". If you care to re-read the first chapter of Genesis, and think of the " day " as an era, or period of time, then few scientists would argue against the order of Creation, the " Creation " of the Earth, the parting of the continents, the growth of vegetation, animal life ..etc, before the advent of an " intelligent " creature we call ...MAN. (Adam) if you call him such.

 

Rather as our earlier discussions about the " eye of the needle ", it means different things to different generations. I can recall (as a very young boy) travelling to IOW, expecting to see some sort of strange sewing box ....while travelling down to see ...." The Needles ".

Edited 15 October, 2009 by david in sweden

[Saint Fan CaM]

Ladybirds are brilliant. Give them time and leave them to get on with it and they disappear.

 

If there is a God then ladybirds are his greatest achievement.

 

 

LOL - very good.

[dubai_phil]

This is all well and good, but why did they hide much of what they found in the Dead Sea Scrolls......

 

Gotta be Dan Brown's next book

[RonManager]

This is all well and good, but why did they hide much of what they found in the Dead Sea Scrolls......

 

 

The usual reasons - space, printer's deadlines, distribution costs etc etc..

[up and away]

Originally Posted by mikec

I know this is completely off-topic for the forum but may I say how refreshing it is to read an intelligent, well-reasoned and tolerant discussion on this issue from both sides. When religion is discussed on most internet forums it usually degenerates pretty quickly to insults and closed minds - come to think of it, a bit like some of the footy-related discussions on here

Maybe that's the key!

 

Football discussion should be reserved for fora on, for example, flower arranging and bell-ringing.

 

Politics should be discussed on fora about children's TV and insects.

 

Things would be a whole lot more civil!

 

Looks like you have seen the light and recovered from your uncertainty of being involved, or is this some form of purgatory for diving into the sexual aid debate unreservedly?

[benjii]

Looks like you have seen the light and recovered from your uncertainty of being involved, or is this some form of purgatory for diving into the sexual aid debate unreservedly?

 

I'm not sure. I'm not usually on here during the day but I think the sheer number of additional hours on this board this week has mellowed me.

 

Anyway, I will not be here during the day tomorrow and have a fairly busy weekend coming up so expect my usual slightly grumpy self to be back next week!

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The problem with stating that organised religion is in decline in the western world is both true and false at the same time..

In Britain and Europe the method of establishing religious service attendance had been to simply obtain data from the main orthodox churches. I.e. Church of England (CoE), Roman Catholic (RC), etc. It is true that the attendence to these have been on the decline since the 1960's. However the establishment of many non-denominational and independent churches, makes the collecting of accurate data more problematic. There are many independent churches in this country and world wide that have seen their attendee's (congregations) grow enormously. Sometimes to the thousands.

Therefore the data collection process is questionable, making the resultant data unreliable.

When census are done people have traditionally stated they are CoE, RC, Jewish, etc. when in reality like recently times, they only step inside a chuch/synagoge/temple etc for christenings, marriages and funerals.

In fact recent enquiries into peoples 'spirtitual' beliefs and attitude, show that more than ever people are searching for spiritual guidance and the answer to the question of 'life the universe and everything' (and before you say, I know its 42).

 

Modern science is not contradicting the Bibles account of creation, in some way it is confirming it. If you accept the basic premis that the first 5 books of the Bible (the Jewish Torah) were dictated by Moses to his scibe (secretary), even if you believe they were written much later they are indisputably thousands of years old. Moses (or the writer) was describing events and happenings to a people not as scientifically as knowledgable as us. They had to be explained in a format that could be understood by the people at that time. It would have been useless trying to explain particle physics to a person who had no comprehension of basic elements (not earth.air,fire and water).

I am definately no scientist, but as far as I can see each step in the creation story takes place in the order scientists believe they occurred. The universe first and man last. As far as on the seven days are concerned, how would you explain several million/billion years to someone with a lifetime of may be 70 at best and probably 40 on average. A day is just a method of determining a period of time, or a part of a process.

 

Personally the idea that the 'bleak truth' is that there is no afterlife, and that this is it, if I believed that it would truely be 'bleak'. But the implication that this is a 'truth' is in some way assumptive. I am a Christian, and believe in God, but if you asked me to prove conclussively Gods existance, I could not. It is my own personal belief and experience. Likewise if I asked you to prove there is no God, you could similarly not be able to prove conclussively there was not.

 

I feel like a fraud discussing religion with educated people such as your good self as frankly you've probably forgotten much more about the subject than I'll ever know , suffice it to say I accept your point regarding the difficulty of measuring church attendance without reservation .

As for the Bible using analogies to teach and spread its message there must be much truth in this also , although I have to say that until relatively recently (and to this very day in some fundamentalist communities) when he parish priest preaches to his congregation that God created the world in 7 days for instance I strongly suspect he meant that to be understood as the literal truth without any nuance or interpretation being needed or indeed tolerated .

 

I hope you'll indulge me if I explain how I lost my personal faith in God during childhood without interpreting that as some attack on those who hold their faith close to their hearts .

 

The story goes back to the early 1970's when yours truly was an avid 12 year old history enthusiast engrossed in quite the finest television series ever broadcast - The World at War - the great series came to a sublimely elegant and well made episode dealing with Nazi Germany's 'Final Solution' ...... I can only say it was a moment of revelation for me (an epiphany if you like) I sat there my young mind struggling to cope with the full horror of what was laid before me . I learnt truths about the world that night that have never left me , I learnt (as a concentration camp survivor testified) that in the right circumstances a human being will do anything to live another hour , I saw innocent children being herded into gas chambers , I saw huge piles of discarded shoes and eye glasses stolen from murdered Jews as their emaciated bodies were cast into the oven or the pit and I 'knew' then and there that there was no God - at least no God that intervened in the affairs of men or that cared to answer a desperate child's prayers .

 

I know the Church says that these crimes were the acts of man (how very true) and that God must give us free will , but how could he allow this ? To my mind the answer seemed so obvious - God had abandoned Humanity and we were alone in a universe utterly indifferent to our fate .

 

If there were more people who practised Christ's central message of love and forgiveness then this world would surly be a far better place for us all - I envy the faithful - I just can't share in their faith anymore .

Edited 15 October, 2009 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[david in sweden]

I feel like a fraud discussing religion with educated people such as your good self as frankly you've probably forgotten much more about the subject than I'll ever know , suffice it to say I accept your point regarding the difficulty of measuring church attendance without reservation .

If there were more people who practised Christ's central message of love and forgiveness then this world would surly be a far better place for us all - I envy the faithful - I just can't share in their faith anymore .

 

I hope you don't mind me hopping in - CHAPEL - on this very interesting thread which goes back (I think) to yr.thread and my comment about M.Liebherr and his BILLIONS and the Third World poor (some days ago.) I too, am impressed by Landford Saint's eloquence, and yr. moving testimony especially as I also had a " crisis of faith " at a similar age.

 

If there is a simple answer to the Halocaust question (I've never heard it),or why innocent children are brutally murdered by psychopaths, but a morally -corrupt atheist may live to 99. Although I have, many times, asked God why certain things have happened (to me) or others - I don't feel that I have blamed God because things " went wrong "/ or / didn't turn out the way I'd thought. Curiously, in consideration of the " Halocaust question ", I have seldom heard a Jew "accuse / blame " God ..because of that history, but I am sure that many have questioned ...why?

 

It sounds very bland when people say " God's ways are past finding out " - but I have to say it is a true staement - (if not a very satisfactory explanation.) "Things " happen, and we don't know why and feel the need to " blame someone "...but why do people blame a God that most of them refuse to admit exists in the first place.?

 

I did find faith in God, and Jesus in later life but it was a voluntary act on my part and not the result of outward pressure from anyone. IF God wanted us all to be like " slaves " we'd all be guiltless of any crime - and queue up with Bibles' under arm outside church on Sundays. The world is not like that. We have our free will to choose what we will / not do, but we are also at the "mercy" of circumstances around us.

 

Most interesting of all Jesus' teachings is his view on eternal life. Many people think only of this life and not if there is an afterlife - an eternal life where our soul liveswill dwell. ( I do not refer to /or believe in any sort of reincarnation, but nevertheless a " Heaven " for the want of another name. I cannot say either, what may await those who do not belive in God? nor do I think that a "vengeful "God will caste them all into a " Hell " like place. I was saw a TV interview where a church man was asked for a similar explanation. He said that he had no answer either, except that " those people who may choose not to live with God - will likely die without him, also!

 

Even in the darkest times, I get strength from my belief in God, even if all my " prayers " may not be answered directly, or in the way I expected.

[saintbletch]

I feel like a fraud discussing religion with educated people such as your good self as frankly you've probably forgotten much more about the subject than I'll ever know , suffice it to say I accept your point regarding the difficulty of measuring church attendance without reservation .

As for the Bible using analogies to teach and spread its message there must be much truth in this also , although I have to say that until relatively recently (and to this very day in some fundamentalist communities) when he parish priest preaches to his congregation that God created the world in 7 days for instance I strongly suspect he meant that to be understood as the literal truth without any nuance or interpretation being needed or indeed tolerated .

 

I hope you'll indulge me if I explain how I lost my personal faith in God during childhood without interpreting that as some attack on those who hold their faith close to their hearts .

 

The story goes back to the early 1970's when yours truly was an avid 12 year old history enthusiast engrossed in quite the finest television series ever broadcast - The World at War - the great series came to a sublimely elegant and well made episode dealing with Nazi Germany's 'Final Solution' ...... I can only say it was a moment of revelation for me (an epiphany if you like) I sat there my young mind struggling to cope with the full horror of what was laid before me . I learnt truths about the world that night that have never left me , I learnt (as a concentration camp survivor testified) that in the right circumstances a human being will do anything to live another hour , I saw innocent children being herded into gas chambers , I saw huge piles of discarded shoes and eye glasses stolen from murdered Jews as their emaciated bodies were cast into the oven or the pit and I 'knew' then and there that there was no God - at least no God that intervened in the affairs of men or that cared to answer a desperate child's prayers .

 

I know the Church says that these crimes were the acts of man (how very true) and that God must give us free will , but how could he allow this ? To my mind the answer seemed so obvious - God had abandoned Humanity and we were alone in a universe utterly indifferent to our fate .

 

If there were more people who practised Christ's central message of love and forgiveness then this world would surly be a far better place for us all - I envy the faithful - I just can't share in their faith anymore .

 

Top post.

 

One that I could have written myself - your experiences match my own very closely. Although my road from Damascus came from having a southern Irish catholic mother and a northern Irish protestant father. The hatred and intolerance between the two sides of my parent's families - apparently in the name of their respective views of God, told me that religion wasn't for me.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I respect both your honesty and your faith David - but for me it just doesn't seem right somehow that we have to accept that the purpose and will of God is unknowable to mankind - I find it hard to believe that anything is inconceivable to the human imagination - that may well be my arrogance .

 

I often ask myself what would I have done if I had been a German soldier during World War II and I'd been ordered to take a part in the Final Solution , in my darkest moments I fear (I know) the terrible truth is that I wouldn't have the courage to make a stand and do the right thing - I'd be just another member of that doomed and damned generation 'Hitler's willing executioners' as they were so memorably described . Maybe that why I've no faith in God - because I can't see any divine spark in myself and am I not supposed to be made in his image ?

 

In the absence of faith all I can do is try and be the best person I can based on my own moral code , I struggle daily to contain the dark side of my nature , I support my friends and family as best I can and above all I cherish the children my life is blessed with - if there is a God that believes in me more than I believe in him then I hope he approves .

 

And with that I think I'll leave the subject of religion as I fear I've bored the forum for long enough .

[landford.saint]

I feel like a fraud discussing religion with educated people such as your good self as frankly you've probably forgotten much more about the subject than I'll ever know , suffice it to say I accept your point regarding the difficulty of measuring church attendance without reservation .

As for the Bible using analogies to teach and spread its message there must be much truth in this also , although I have to say that until relatively recently (and to this very day in some fundamentalist communities) when he parish priest preaches to his congregation that God created the world in 7 days for instance I strongly suspect he meant that to be understood as the literal truth without any nuance or interpretation being needed or indeed tolerated .

 

I hope you'll indulge me if I explain how I lost my personal faith in God during childhood without interpreting that as some attack on those who hold their faith close to their hearts .

 

The story goes back to the early 1970's when yours truly was an avid 12 year old history enthusiast engrossed in quite the finest television series ever broadcast - The World at War - the great series came to a sublimely elegant and well made episode dealing with Nazi Germany's 'Final Solution' ...... I can only say it was a moment of revelation for me (an epiphany if you like) I sat there my young mind struggling to cope with the full horror of what was laid before me . I learnt truths about the world that night that have never left me , I learnt (as a concentration camp survivor testified) that in the right circumstances a human being will do anything to live another hour , I saw innocent children being herded into gas chambers , I saw huge piles of discarded shoes and eye glasses stolen from murdered Jews as their emaciated bodies were cast into the oven or the pit and I 'knew' then and there that there was no God - at least no God that intervened in the affairs of men or that cared to answer a desperate child's prayers .

 

I know the Church says that these crimes were the acts of man (how very true) and that God must give us free will , but how could he allow this ? To my mind the answer seemed so obvious - God had abandoned Humanity and we were alone in a universe utterly indifferent to our fate .

 

If there were more people who practised Christ's central message of love and forgiveness then this world would surly be a far better place for us all - I envy the faithful - I just can't share in their faith anymore .

 

CEC no one has ever accussed me of being educated before.

Questions such as mans inhumanity to man, and why does God allow things to happen have been asked by mankind for centuries and the the answers most wise men have given have been inadequate at best and absurd at worst. I have no more answer to these questions than they have. I know its to do with the free will that was given to man, and the devils influence but after that I 'm afraid I haven't any more insight. The only thing I can say is I know that God has not abandoned mankind. Can I prove this scientifically, of course not, but I personally know he is still there. God does not abandon us, we often ignore him, but he does not bear grudges and abandon us.

A verse in the Bible says 'now we see things as if looking through a dark window, but then we will see things clearly'.

 

The problem is religion getting in the way of the spiritual. You would thought after all the wars fought in the name of some religion or other down the centuries that man would have learnt, in fact man seems to be starting morre and more wars using religion as an excuse.

Fudamentalists of all religious persuasions are responsible for too much intolerance. I totally agree love and forgiveness and tolerance would make this world a far better place.

I as a Christian am deeply ashamed by the intolerance and bigotry shown by some people who describe themselves as christians.

[trousers]

And the dinosaurs...? Did "God" abandon them? He couldn't be bothered to write about them in his book, that's for sure.

[dubai_phil]

And the dinosaurs...? Did "God" abandon them? He couldn't be bothered to write about them in his book, that's for sure.

 

Trust you...

 

The Road to Damascus is amazing

 

If you drive down from Crac des Chevaliers coming from the coastal resort of Lattakia

 

No, really, in the context of this thread it IS amazing. It takes you past places that you had "force read" into you during RE at school. Suddenly the whole Story starts to come alive. Just finding for yourself that these places really existed is a shock to the system

 

Could rant on about it, (but I truly cannot add anything to this thread other than praise for the quality of the work on here)

 

humbled

[SFKA South Woodford]

Hi Eric & Phil,

 

You might feel at home next time you back to blighty if the uk ragheads have their way..............

 

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/134080/Now-Muslims-demand-Give-us-full-Sharia-law

 

Well if they've had enough of democracy, lock them all up and throw away the key. They wont complain as they don't want to live in a society that allows them to practice their hate filled brand of religion anyway. While we are at it, can we lock up Mel Gibson on his next visit too?

 

I believe in a higher power and consider myself christian 'although i'm not a practising christian', but to me religion is only a guideline, not in how to be holier than the next person, but to live with each other in peace and harmony and teaches respect for other people. It only becomes dangerous when you get zealots that start putting their own spin on it and start spouting it off as the true gospel of god.

 

In my view these people and their followers are often weak willed and not understanding their life, look to religion as a way of explanation or as a way of having something to blame for their lot in life, rather than going and doing something about it for themselves. If it is a way of making your life better, then surely we'd all be well off as we could all pray for god to see his way to giving us all a few bob and he'd oblige.

[dubai_phil]

Well if they've had enough of democracy, lock them all up and throw away the key. They wont complain as they don't want to live in a society that allows them to practice their hate filled brand of religion anyway. While we are at it, can we lock up Mel Gibson on his next visit too?

 

I believe in a higher power and consider myself christian 'although i'm not a practising christian', but to me religion is only a guideline, not in how to be holier than the next person, but to live with each other in peace and harmony and teaches respect for other people. It only becomes dangerous when you get zealots that start putting their own spin on it and start spouting it off as the true gospel of god.

 

In my view these people and their followers are often weak willed and not understanding their life, look to religion as a way of explanation or as a way of having something to blame for their lot in life, rather than going and doing something about it for themselves. If it is a way of making your life better, then surely we'd all be well off as we could all pray for god to see his way to giving us all a few bob and he'd oblige.

 

 

What a lot of people don't realise is that with Britain's "asylum meal ticket" attitude, many, many people were branded as being extremist "fanatics" down here. Their brand of hate filled bile was too much even for the more strict Wahibi regimes in Saudi.

 

They preached Jihad, they demanded that all the moderate, good local citizens were sheep and must rise up and destroy "The Infidels". So the authorities arrested them, and harrassed them and demanded that they stop.

 

Instead they fled Sauid, Yemen, Iran etc and went to the UK, where you welcomed them with open arms, allowed them to build their own Mosques and if anyone commented that they were preaching hatred and war, those complainers were arrested and harrassed by the British "PC" forces.

 

People down here couldn't understand it, yet it spawned suicide bombers and most importantly it spawned the barriers that led to rise of counter extremist views, the complete opposite of what the "Commission for Racial Equality" was supposed to have done.

 

If somebody preaches hate in a Church or a Mosque they should have been arrested and if they were from abroad they should have been deported. You guys started to react 20 years too late.

 

The damage is done, the Sharia issue is just one more step on the assimilation of the Western Culture to one where the fanatics want us all to live in mud huts and pray 5 times a day while growing drugs to pay for them to retain their power. All in the name of religion.

 

Rant over

[david in sweden]

Trust you...

 

The Road to Damascus is amazing

 

If you drive down from Crac des Chevaliers coming from the coastal resort of Lattakia

No, really, in the context of this thread it IS amazing. It takes you past places that you had "force read" into you during RE at school. Suddenly the whole Story starts to come alive. Just finding for yourself that these places really existed is a shock to the system

Could rant on about it, (but I truly cannot add anything to this thread other than praise for the quality of the work on here) humbled

 

 

I think it is we are humbled Dubai Phil, I think you have been very open in expressing your feelings and (I/we) have done the same. I think you deserve some respect for listening to the opinions of others and have been willing to have a dialogue on " this most unusual thread ", without ranting on about " unbelief ". It may well be that you do not understand our viewpoint, but we are speaking with other experiences which (judging by some responses here) don't go down well with everyone.

MY own personal observation is that, NO - God doesn't show/tell us/ explain everything, but that's where the faith comes in. Although I do believe that God is there for everyone (even the concentration camp guard) - if we choose to acknowledge him. I honestly admit that I have never been a great one for prayer - (sadly) but talking to God is just like talking to anyone else - he listens anyway.

 

The only thing we have in common is impatience for an answer, but I do know that everything in our lives have a timetable in Gods' plan ..and " you can't get on the train - until the time is right for it to arrive " (own quote).

 

*** Hi everyone else...I really think we ought to create a more suitable thread on/in the Lounge - (as almost everyone) else seems to do, otherwise this one will disappear into oblivion after Saturdays game (!).

[david in sweden]

I respect both your honesty and your faith David - but for me it just doesn't seem right somehow that we have to accept that the purpose and will of God is unknowable to mankind - I find it hard to believe that anything is inconceivable to the human imagination - that may well be my arrogance .

 

I often ask myself what would I have done if I had been a German soldier during World War II and I'd been ordered to take a part in the Final Solution , in my darkest moments I fear (I know) the terrible truth is that I wouldn't have the courage to make a stand and do the right thing - I'd be just another member of that doomed and damned generation 'Hitler's willing executioners' as they were so memorably described . Maybe that why I've no faith in God - because I can't see any divine spark in myself and am I not supposed to be made in his image ?

 

In the absence of faith all I can do is try and be the best person I can based on my own moral code , I struggle daily to contain the dark side of my nature , I support my friends and family as best I can and above all I cherish the children my life is blessed with - if there is a God that believes in me more than I believe in him then I hope he approves .

 

And with that I think I'll leave the subject of religion as I fear I've bored the forum for long enough .

 

 

I'm very impressed to read this thread CEC. I'd like to say that I am most impressed by your version of a " moral code " and I would like to think that I try to do the same (though I may fail sometimes).

 

I believe that there is a God, and I'm sure he might well approve.

If you had a closer relationship with him, I think you'd feel that, too. I'm sure.

 

I don't think you've bored people, in fact your contributions have been some of the more stimulating to read - do continue.

[trousers]

FFS....what about the f****** dinosaurs?

 

Jesus Christ Almighty

Edited 16 October, 2009 by trousers

[dubai_phil]

FFS....what about the f****** dinosaurs?

 

Jesus Christ Almighty

 

Strangely getting back to the relevance of the forum

 

Trousers - Oh good grief, you must be the only person on the planet who doesn't know the answer to this,think it is between pages 187 and 204, Lost Symbol, Dan Brown, if not it's somewhere in the pyramid.

 

It believes it answers everything else...

 

Except for 42, which is being published later this week as the 6th part of the Trilogy. Please keep up.

 

You ever been to Alleppo? Some great restaurants in view of the Citadel, home to some of the bloodiest examples of the problems caused by the extreme believers of two intransigent religions who believe their view on Life the Universe and Everything is the right one.

 

View things as a historian in 2200 years time finding an old back up tape from the Forum Server and building a whole new religion based on the teachings of "The Happy Clappy's" and somebody else arguing that the Anti's were right. Hanging non believers from a Bridge coated with Itchen Powder, a whole new take on the legend of Adam and eve(n) the Papa.

 

Why, from here they'd even find a new dark side populated by a new evil Dark Lord, The Muppet (adroitly swerves to avoid offending any posters).

 

Monty Python got stick at the time but they hit a good nail on the head, the world's culture is based upon "What some bloke said", followed by a few loonies insisting their bloke was more right than the other one.

 

Just look at "Fervour" and how it affects people's point of view on here -how the sk*tes fail to see the reality of their current situation despite the facts, or the MLT is the anti-christ, NP vs AP.

 

Understand why that happens and you understand the world. It's sod all use in helping to get us 3 points tomorrow though.

 

Unless it helps you understand the way that the mind works and helps you influence that to gain just that little more "focus, desire and faith".

 

Then things get interesting.

[westofshannonsaint]

b'Jesus, i clicked on last page expecting to read something about Pard's, I really have to lol it's a bit random in all fairness.

 

I know this is completely off-topic for the forum but may I say how refreshing it is to read an intelligent, well-reasoned and tolerant discussion on this issue from both sides. When religion is discussed on most internet forums it usually degenerates pretty quickly to insults and closed minds - come to think of it, a bit like some of the footy-related discussions on here

 

I agree it is really refreshing to read an intelligent, reasoned debate, I was saying to a friend, a diehard Liverpool fan, who claims to be an football fan, that won't watch his country or local team, and will not discuss politics or religion....

 

"football IS religion"

[up and away]

FFS....what about the f****** dinosaurs?

 

Jesus Christ Almighty

 

Just imagine Noah having to two by two that little lot. There's not a ship big enough today so that poor old sod had no chance then. He took the only practical line, just pretend they don't exist, no one will notice after a few years?

 

When you hear all these theories as to why the dinosaurs died out, I just cannot believe this one is not top of the pile! We may need a third helping to incorporate this one.

[Legod Third Coming]

Just imagine Noah having to two by two that little lot. There's not a ship big enough today so that poor old sod had no chance then. He took the only practical line, just pretend they don't exist, no one will notice after a few years?

 

When you hear all these theories as to why the dinosaurs died out, I just cannot believe this one is not top of the pile! We may need a third helping to incorporate this one.

 

I believe that the theory of extinction is primary evidence that, in reality, science is letting us down badly.

 

Let me explain.

 

It would be easy for water lying in a puddle after rainfall to feel secure and comfortable in its surroundings. After all, the hole seems to fit perfectly. As a result, the water in the puddle imagines that so perfect is its sourroundings that the hole must have been designed for it...

 

I don't doubt the theory of evolution, nor do I dispute that there may well be some higher order in the entity we know as the universe.

 

But some things don't quite fit, do they?

 

Be honest, where is the 'missing link'? Why do apes continue to exist if the fittest evoled into man? And why in the evolution of man do we not contibue to see further evolution?

 

Scientists will tell you it is because it takes millions of years for evolution to be seen, ergo we can only see that which occured millions of years before man.

 

Then we have extinction. We know that man causes exctintion, but what happened to this 'evolution'? If life will find a way, why does it not evolve to fight the forces of extinction? Where are the dinosaurs who evolved to fill the void left by their forebears?

 

Science continues to create theories based on evidence a little like the water decides the hole existed for it to fill. Why? Because science does not always comprehend the rain. We must find theories that support the evidence we can see, but only as we can see it and only as we can comprehend it.

 

But let's consider another theory.

 

What if man simply arrived here on this planet? Or indeed planets?

 

Would that not explain the variety in culture ? Would it not explain why so many religions actually have their basis in the same set of values - virgin birth, father God, etc?

 

How, for example, can we explain the knolwedge of the Pharoahs? Where did this knowledge 'evolve' from? The capacity to engineer, architecture and mathematics?

 

And what if, all the rest is simply bunkem to keep you from knowing the reality?

[Saint Fan CaM]

I believe that the theory of extinction is primary evidence that, in reality, science is letting us down badly.

 

Let me explain.

 

It would be easy for water lying in a puddle after rainfall to feel secure and comfortable in its surroundings. After all, the hole seems to fit perfectly. As a result, the water in the puddle imagines that so perfect is its sourroundings that the hole must have been designed for it...

 

I don't doubt the theory of evolution, nor do I dispute that there may well be some higher order in the entity we know as the universe.

 

But some things don't quite fit, do they?

 

Be honest, where is the 'missing link'? Why do apes continue to exist if the fittest evoled into man? And why in the evolution of man do we not contibue to see further evolution?

 

Scientists will tell you it is because it takes millions of years for evolution to be seen, ergo we can only see that which occured millions of years before man.

 

Then we have extinction. We know that man causes exctintion, but what happened to this 'evolution'? If life will find a way, why does it not evolve to fight the forces of extinction? Where are the dinosaurs who evolved to fill the void left by their forebears?

 

Science continues to create theories based on evidence a little like the water decides the hole existed for it to fill. Why? Because science does not always comprehend the rain. We must find theories that support the evidence we can see, but only as we can see it and only as we can comprehend it.

 

But let's consider another theory.

 

What if man simply arrived here on this planet? Or indeed planets?

 

Would that not explain the variety in culture ? Would it not explain why so many religions actually have their basis in the same set of values - virgin birth, father God, etc?

 

How, for example, can we explain the knolwedge of the Pharoahs? Where did this knowledge 'evolve' from? The capacity to engineer, architecture and mathematics?

 

And what if, all the rest is simply bunkem to keep you from knowing the reality?

 

 

I like your rainwater in a hole analogy, although I'm not so sure you entirely hit the point home.

 

To answer your point regarding dinosaurs and extinction, there are traces of their lineage left today - e.g. crocodiles, alligators and sharks to name the most obvious. Not only that, but there is very clear geological evidence that (a) dinosaurs existed once...(b) there was some kind of extinction event that wiped them almost completely from the face of the earth. There is clear evidence also that there have been other extinction events and there may be more to come in the future.

 

The link to your later points here is, will man be able to mature such that he is able to survive a future extinction event? Right now the answer would have to be a resounding NO! We have all the right intelligence and attributes to enable mankinds survival, however world politics, religion, economics and a host of other factors would probably get in the way.

 

Lastly, I too like the "God was a genecist" idea. I too find the old civiliations knowledge of astromony, mathematics and other science baffling on the one hand, but also strangely exciting to contemplate. Imagine that somewhere in the mists of time spacemen visited Earth and made some form of contact with our ancestors. How could they possibly describe to them the context of their magical powers (incredible powers such as electricity and movement in the air for example)? The locals would treat these newcomers as gods...and the 'gods' might attempt to explain aspects of society in terms and stories our ancestors might understand. Eventually the stories - handed down generation to generation - get distorted and used by successive generations to wield power and influence people.

 

None of the above is any more likely than any other explanation frankly. What really wrankles me is that so many are unable to keep an open mind, but then that is at the heart of all of humankinds religions for obvious reasons.

[Legod Third Coming]

I like your rainwater in a hole analogy, although I'm not so sure you entirely hit the point home.

 

To answer your point regarding dinosaurs and extinction, there are traces of their lineage left today - e.g. crocodiles, alligators and sharks to name the most obvious. Not only that, but there is very clear geological evidence that (a) dinosaurs existed once...(b) there was some kind of extinction event that wiped them almost completely from the face of the earth. There is clear evidence also that there have been other extinction events and there may be more to come in the future.

 

The link to your later points here is, will man be able to mature such that he is able to survive a future extinction event? Right now the answer would have to be a resounding NO! We have all the right intelligence and attributes to enable mankinds survival, however world politics, religion, economics and a host of other factors would probably get in the way.

 

Lastly, I too like the "God was a genecist" idea. I too find the old civiliations knowledge of astromony, mathematics and other science baffling on the one hand, but also strangely exciting to contemplate. Imagine that somewhere in the mists of time spacemen visited Earth and made some form of contact with our ancestors. How could they possibly describe to them the context of their magical powers (incredible powers such as electricity and movement in the air for example)? The locals would treat these newcomers as gods...and the 'gods' might attempt to explain aspects of society in terms and stories our ancestors might understand. Eventually the stories - handed down generation to generation - get distorted and used by successive generations to wield power and influence people.

 

None of the above is any more likely than any other explanation frankly. What really wrankles me is that so many are unable to keep an open mind, but then that is at the heart of all of humankinds religions for obvious reasons.

 

This is what also wrankles with me. If I said to my neighbours that I believe in God the genecitist/astronomer, they would call me mad. But the concept of a being credible of crafting an entire world in his hands, that's totally sane to them... bizarre.

 

If anything, recent evidence points to my theory being far more likely - we have discovered water in the universe, the semblence of life elsewhere.

 

If it just as likely that a rock hit earth carrying microorganisms and found their 'puddle'...

[up and away]

I believe that the theory of extinction is primary evidence that, in reality, science is letting us down badly.

 

Let me explain.

 

It would be easy for water lying in a puddle after rainfall to feel secure and comfortable in its surroundings. After all, the hole seems to fit perfectly. As a result, the water in the puddle imagines that so perfect is its sourroundings that the hole must have been designed for it...

 

I don't doubt the theory of evolution, nor do I dispute that there may well be some higher order in the entity we know as the universe.

 

But some things don't quite fit, do they?

 

Be honest, where is the 'missing link'? Why do apes continue to exist if the fittest evoled into man? And why in the evolution of man do we not contibue to see further evolution?

 

Scientists will tell you it is because it takes millions of years for evolution to be seen, ergo we can only see that which occured millions of years before man.

 

Then we have extinction. We know that man causes exctintion, but what happened to this 'evolution'? If life will find a way, why does it not evolve to fight the forces of extinction? Where are the dinosaurs who evolved to fill the void left by their forebears?

 

Science continues to create theories based on evidence a little like the water decides the hole existed for it to fill. Why? Because science does not always comprehend the rain. We must find theories that support the evidence we can see, but only as we can see it and only as we can comprehend it.

 

But let's consider another theory.

 

What if man simply arrived here on this planet? Or indeed planets?

 

Would that not explain the variety in culture ? Would it not explain why so many religions actually have their basis in the same set of values - virgin birth, father God, etc?

 

How, for example, can we explain the knolwedge of the Pharoahs? Where did this knowledge 'evolve' from? The capacity to engineer, architecture and mathematics?

 

And what if, all the rest is simply bunkem to keep you from knowing the reality?

 

Seems to be a lot of doubt about evolution there, even though you have not grasped the basics of how it works.

The big leaps in evolution come about by a forced situation, where the species either adapts or dies. Those apes in a secure environment can continue to exist as they are, when there is no force on them to change or develop. Keep putting them on the open savannah and they will adapt or die. Only recently scientists have found what looks to be the closest yet to the missing link, time will tell on that one but it keeps getting closer and closer.

 

Mammals have shown a basis of understanding not known to other species. Just the basic concept of being able to tell how many young a mother has is calculus in comparison to some species. Look at the astounding steps in comprehension man has made in just the last hundred years, so mammals discovering the basics of mathematics is hardly astounding in comparison, especially when it took milllions of years to do so.

 

When man evolved and learned to communicate, reason quickly followed. But without the scientific skills to explain anything, they just lumped anything that could not be explained into one big bag labelled higher entity. Give them the tools we have now and the understanding to use them and religion as we know it would be all out of the window.

 

The great thing about scientists is if they find something that does not fit with a theory, that theory no longer is valid. It might still hang around with a big question mark until something better comes along, or used empirically, but never on a question of faith.

 

As to whether that all knowing, all seeing entity exists, no one can say for sure. What can be discredited is mans attempts to create such an entity to explain all their fears and unknowns.

[dubai_phil]

Dinosaurs aren't extinct, they did evolve and can bee seen regularly at Nottarf Krap.

 

The Lost Wisdom of the Ancients, like the lost treasures of that time, surely they cannot ALL have fallen down the back of the sofa?

 

You see up pops Dan Brown again, Dead Sea Scrolls and why did they burn the Great Library in Alexandria?

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

The question of the technological development of early civilisations needs no extra terrestial explanations , our ancestors possessed brains of exactly the same structure and potential as ours today - they were merely labouring under the disadvantage of having to start from scratch as it were . Modern man however has the inestimable advantage of having a enormous body of scientific discovery as a starting point ('standing on the shoulders of giants') - where would the 'The Large Hadron Collider' be without the work of Albert Einstein or Professor Hawkins with no Newton for example ?

 

The ancient Egyptian example makes a good illustration of the point . That civilisations most obvious achievement - the 'Great Pyramids' of the Giza plateau - did not mysteriously spring fully formed into the world from nothing but are in fact the culmination of centuries of development from the small Mastaba tombs of the pre-dynastic era through the subsequent 'Step Pyramid' design to the ultimate form we can still see today (in all its glorious perfection) at Giza . No alien blueprint is required to explain these magnificent structures , they are clearly the result of human intelligence and labour , to argue otherwise is to grievously insult and underestimate our own species .

 

As for evolution Science Fiction's better writers have postulated that humanity is now in the process of evolving into a new rapidly developing form . It is argued that the process of evolution is itself evolving from its biological beginnings into a technological future . We already see the human body being adapted with implants (pacemakers , artificial limbs ..etc) this process may within the not too distant future see humanity alter almost beyond recognition . In the future an advanced hybrid between man and machine (or a genetically adapted body) perhaps even a purely artificial sentient 'life-form' (read Asimov's 'Bicentennial Man') may replace or supplement Homo Sapiens - please don't allow a 100 silly movies to convince you that's necessarily a negative development . Such a creation would represent our evolution (the child of mankind in a sense) , if we do it right they could represent all that's best of humanity without being saddled with its numerous limitations or folly's .