Tories

[St Landrew]

Well someone is a grumpy bugger tonight.

 

Hansard? Pea Lover?

 

Not at all. I just don't think you can fairly and unbiasedly summarise the last time a Conservative government was in power properly in 100 words.

 

Hansard is the offical parliamentary record. Everything that is said is recorded in Hansard. Only we can't read it.

Pea Lover is John Major. He was portrayed on the puppet/satire show Spitting Image as a Grey Man who loiked green peas, and ate nothing but them.

 

I remember one sketch, just before the 1992 election, where a proposed Labour Cabinet were rehearsing their new Government status. In walks Grey Man John Major, and asks Neil Kinnock if he wanted anything. Neil Kinock says something amusing, and all the shadow cabinet fall about laughing. John Major walks out, shouders drooping. Neil Kinnock observes that John Major is a nice bloke, but a crap politician. Here's the Pea Lover [0m 39secs into video]

 

 

 

A couple of weeks later, Kinnock had lost Labour the election by his alright antics. I still find it incredible to hear him shout it out when I see it played again. 1m 33s into this video he does a couple of alrights. He had done loads of them on the night, and they were squirmingly embarrassing to Labour politicians at the time. Their popularity dropped like a stone, and Grey Man John Major was Prime Minister.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt-HQHqPpY

[Thedelldays]

And administration should not be in power for 12 years. That is too long. Be it labour or Tory. Their ideals tend to go too far and you need the other party to gain a bit of parity.

 

If cameron comes in I would have no doubt thy if he was still there in 12 years we will be crying for a labour govt.

 

I hope the torys win. I really do

[Mao Cap]

Even seven months ahead, it's pretty obvious the Tories are in. Moderate majority I reckon, rather than a landslide.

 

Hope they don't go mad with the cuts, with the result that we end up partying like it's 1929

[JustMike]

Well in 1979 under Labour this country was going down the sh1tter at a rate of knots, Unions had the whip hand went on strike if the boss farted in the wrong key rubbish piling up in the streets industry was un viable. Tories under Maggie Thatcher came to power and she kicked the chuffin lot up the arse & out the door in many a case. Sadly like all politicians in power too long they got power crazy and pushed their luck a bit too far. However unlike the next government, when Labour took over in 1997 the country was in pretty good shape financially; and as things stand right now as usual they have piddled the chuffin lot up the wall.

 

Sorry more than 100 words

 

how wrong are you (the last bits) When Labour came into power the country was not in good shape hence why the torries got whipped at that election and by an even bigger margin at the next. I liked Blair, he had a tough job undoing the torries mistakes and imo was only shafted by his own people in the shape of a certain Mr Brown

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I liked Blair

 

For the less politically motivated is that not what it boils down to ? my partner likes Cameron, not for his policies but simply because she thinks he sounds like a nice man and reminds her of Blair, when I question her further she then refers to the family tragedy experienced and although I pointed out Brown experienced similar it it came down to her believing Brown looks scruffy and awkward, style over substance will win every time for a large percentage imo

[View From The Top]

As I have a sense of morality I could never vote Tory, especially for the vacuous toffs parading as "ordinary" folk.

 

That said, the current administration has run out of steam and change is needed in some way, shape or form.

[bungle]

I'm no accountant, so I wont claim to know the ins and outs of tax, but the way I see it, if every is paying a set % of their earnings, that surely is proportional. Infact based on income tax, those in the higher bracket (£36k plus?) are paying a higher proportion of tax. To me that sounds pretty much fair, if anything in favour of those who are in the lower income bracket.

 

If we look at other forms of tax:

 

Road Tax; The roads cost the same to maintain regardless of the wealth of those driving on them. Everyone should pay the same amount. Ditto council tax with the costs of local amenities. I've never bought a house, but I understand stamp duty to be a % of the value of the property. Capital gains tax

 

Personally I think most of the complaints are from working class people who can't accept that they will have less disposable income than those with better paid jobs. I saw a woman on the news saying something along the lines of 'all the rich people with fancy cars and boats, why should they have more money than we do'. Well madame, they run their own software company, you work at the check-outs in ASDA. GO figure.

 

Oh ye of little knowledge.

 

Firstly, the higher band of income tax only comes into effect on earnings OVER that level. However, we suffer lots of indirect taxation. You have highlighted one great one. Council Tax. It is the most unfair tax ever, based on a totally flawed system of house valuations. In cases, pensioners on the state pension (through virtue of living in a family home used by the family over generations, which has increased in value) are forced to pay the same as some on hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. That isn't right, nor is it fair. It is not a society I enjoy living in.

 

The Tories, and morally dubious people such as yourself and colinjb, might have an "I'm alright Jack" attitude, but if the country was left to run like that it would fall apart (in many cases it is still only now we are suffering the wrongs of the last Tory government). I certainly will do all I can to stop your selfish attitude prevailing.

[Colinjb]

It's a shame that people can have such disgustingly selfish attitudes.

 

Unfortunately if the Tories get in the rich will get richer, the poor will suffer and the country will be in a ruinous mess. Still, the selfish (such as colin) will be happy.

 

Also, you clearly don't know anything about socialism, if you think this country has got to some kind of "massively abused extreme". You are quite politically naive, which clearly leads to you thinking the Tories would actually be useful for something. They won't be.

 

What is selfish about knowing the work you put in will be rewarded? I personally belief the real selfish ones are those that know they can survive without contributing to society.

 

This where the extreme comes into play, socialism is society all working together for it's mutual benefit, if everyone had taken that idea to heart it would work, but thanks to the fundamentally selfish nature of human nature (which does exist, but better to work with it then against it, no room for idealism in realilty) then it has lead to the system being abused. The shocking thing is the seeming lack of willing from the present government to do anything about it!

[Johnny Bognor]

Unfortunately if the Tories get in the rich will get richer, the poor will suffer and the country will be in a ruinous mess. Still, the selfish (such as colin) will be happy. .

 

Well the gap between rich and poor is the largest for 40 years, which includes all of Maggie's 'reign'.....and this is after 12 years of a labour government.

 

Labour have failed the poor.....period.

 

and the country will be in a ruinous mess.

 

WAKE UP BUNGLE

 

We are already in a ruinous mess....in fact the biggest ruinous mess we have been in since the second world war.

[redkeith]

There are two different views on Thatcher.

 

Some think that she wrecked traditional industries out of revenge for 1974, and has left our electricity system reliant on gas that is no longer under the North Sea, that she brought about a me first mentality ("There is no such thing as society, merely groups of individuals") that has lead to a massive decline in moral standards, as people seek to feather their nest without thinking of the consequences.

 

Then there is the other point of view, which is just wrong.

 

It is because of this Thatcher legacy that I have moved to a more civilised country, France.

 

However I do worry that Sarkozy is trying to be the French Thatcher, and that it will all change here as well.

[OLYMPIC]

how wrong are you (the last bits) When Labour came into power the country was not in good shape hence why the torries got whipped at that election and by an even bigger margin at the next. I liked Blair, he had a tough job undoing the torries mistakes and imo was only shafted by his own people in the shape of a certain Mr Brown

 

Strange then that Tony Blair recently said he was actually very lucky to inherit one of the healthiest economies of any incoming goverment.

The sad thing is regardless of the current financial situation the labour party have ended up doing what they always do and that is keep spending until we are in masses of debt,they even got a poor deal selling off a load of our gold reserve.

[Colinjb]

There are two different views on Thatcher.

 

Some think that she wrecked traditional industries out of revenge for 1974, and has left our electricity system reliant on gas that is no longer under the North Sea, that she brought about a me first mentality ("There is no such thing as society, merely groups of individuals") that has lead to a massive decline in moral standards, as people seek to feather their nest without thinking of the consequences.

 

Then there is the other point of view, which is just wrong.

 

It is because of this Thatcher legacy that I have moved to a more civilised country, France.

 

However I do worry that Sarkozy is trying to be the French Thatcher, and that it will all change here as well.

 

I believe you are refering to this speach:

 

"I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand "I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or "I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations.."

 

When that statement is taken in isolation it is quite shocking, but when taken into context it is 100% correct.

[Thedelldays]

Why do people have a problem with a bunch if highly educated people (ie toffs) running the country?

 

Do we not want the very best educated to do the job? Or would it be better if john Prescott did it?

[Colinjb]

Why do people have a problem with a bunch if highly educated people (ie toffs) running the country?

 

Do we not want the very best educated to do the job? Or would it be better if john Prescott did it?

 

Two words: Inferiority complex.

 

It has to be considered though that a high standard education doesn't always make for a high standard individual, you can get bad eggs in all areas.

[Johnny Bognor]

There are two different views on Thatcher.

 

Some think that she wrecked traditional industries

 

 

Whilst others who subscribe to the rational school of thought realise that there has been de-industrialisation on a massive scale.

 

In fact, UK manufacturing fell from 31% of GDP to 25% of GDP between 1970 and 1979 (before Thatcher was elected).

 

During her term it fell from 25% to 23% and then after it fell from 23% to 19% between 1989 to 2000.

 

In fact, manufacturing fell LESS as a proportion of GDP during her premiership than at any other time since 1970.

 

We can also consider that this trend has even affected Germany (Europe's industrial powerhouse) where manufacturing has fallen from 36% of GDP to 24% of GDP since the early 1970's. Even in France (where the state owns significant parts of the manufacturing base) manufacturing has fallen by more than 13% of its share of GDP.

 

 

Having said this, it is far easier to blame Thatcher for all industrial decline - even though it goes back to before she was born and has continued since she left (over 19 years ago) and conveniently ignore that every major Western economy has had declines in their industries.

 

But one shouldn't let facts get in the way of pantomime politics.

 

Altogether now......

Booooooooooo

Hisssssssss

She's behind you

[bungle]

Well the gap between rich and poor is the largest for 40 years, which includes all of Maggie's 'reign'.....and this is after 12 years of a labour government.

 

Labour have failed the poor.....period.

 

 

 

WAKE UP BUNGLE

 

We are already in a ruinous mess....in fact the biggest ruinous mess we have been in since the second world war.

 

I agree with both of these points, although of course I would point out the Labour today are not what Labour have tradionally stood for.

 

You are, of course, right that the gap between rich and poor has got worse, and that is largely because Labour ran scared of implementing the reforms that were needed at the time.

 

In terms of the levels of ruinous mess, as much as Alistair Darling isn't my favourite person, George Osborne was hopelessly out of his depth in responding to the financial crisis, and I dread to think of the state the country would be in now had he been the man making the decisions. Of course, had it been Vince Cable...

[View From The Top]

Why do people have a problem with a bunch if highly educated people (ie toffs) running the country?

 

Do we not want the very best educated to do the job? Or would it be better if john Prescott did it?

 

Only an idiot could confuse highly educated with toffs.

 

I've more highly qualified than Cameron, Osbourne etc.

[View From The Top]

had it been Vince Cable...

 

The only politician worth listening to.

 

The Tory front bench is lightweight and vacuous.

 

I trust them even less than I trust Brown and Darling.

[Johnny Bognor]

In terms of the levels of ruinous mess, as much as Alistair Darling isn't my favourite person, George Osborne was hopelessly out of his depth in responding to the financial crisis, and I dread to think of the state the country would be in now had he been the man making the decisions. Of course, had it been Vince Cable...

 

Don't try to blame the mess on Darling, he was dropped in the proverbial by our previous "no more boom and bust" chancellor. Clown is to blame for our position (being the weakest of the western world) as it was on his watch that he over borrowed, mis-spent, under regulated and didn't prepare for the inevitable. He obviously did believe his own rhetorik...."no more boom and bust"

 

Respect to Cable who saw it coming, but most with half a brain cell did, whilst the man who was responsible for our economy ****ed it up royally.

 

FWIW, I think the tories should dump Osbourne and bring back Clarke as he has been the most successful chancellor of the last 5 decades.

 

Now, can someone tell me, whatever happended to the Labour investment we were promised only 3 months ago becuase it sounded so much better than the nasty wasty wasty tory cuts?

[bungle]

Don't try to blame the mess on Darling, he was dropped in the proverbial by our previous "no more boom and bust" chancellor. Clown is to blame for our position (being the weakest of the western world) as it was on his watch that he over borrowed, mis-spent, under regulated and didn't prepare for the inevitable. He obviously did believe his own rhetorik...."no more boom and bust"

 

Respect to Cable who saw it coming, but most with half a brain cell did, whilst the man who was responsible for our economy ****ed it up royally.

 

FWIW, I think the tories should dump Osbourne and bring back Clarke as he has been the most successful chancellor of the last 5 decades.

 

Now, can someone tell me, whatever happended to the Labour investment we were promised only 3 months ago becuase it sounded so much better than the nasty wasty wasty tory cuts?

 

This group included 0 Tories. Not one of them a) saw it coming, b) had any idea what to do to try and minimize the impact. They would still make cuts NOW and throw this country back into recession.

[View From The Top]

This group included 0 Tories. Not one of them a) saw it coming, b) had any idea what to do to try and minimize the impact. They would still make cuts NOW and throw this country back into recession.

 

Yes, they did get it wrong at every stage.

[jeff leopard]

Prime Minister Cameron....

 

Good sound to it.

 

Think it will happen now

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

it will happen primarily due to Brown's unpopularity

 

but a good sound to it! you have got to be trolling.

 

i doubt there is an emptier, more shallow creature on this planet.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The only politician worth listening to.

 

The Tory front bench is lightweight and vacuous.

 

I trust them even less than I trust Brown and Darling.

 

And, for most of us disenchanted Labour voters, that last line will be the crux on which our voting decision will be made.

[bungle]

Re: Cameron

 

"There is less to him than meets the eye."

[View From The Top]

And, for most of us disenchanted Labour voters, that last line will be the crux on which our voting decision will be made.

 

I've already decided to vote Liberal.

 

I cannot support Brown and I pity anyone who cannot see how empty Cameron is.

[warsash saint]

Dave gets my vote.

[View From The Top]

Dave gets my vote.

 

I prefer BBC2 myself but each to their own.

[Colinjb]

I've already decided to vote Liberal.

 

I cannot support Brown and I pity anyone who cannot see how empty Cameron is.

 

Considering he is just as empty as Blair was it is still an improvement over Brown.

[St Landrew]

how wrong are you (the last bits) When Labour came into power the country was not in good shape hence why the torries got whipped at that election and by an even bigger margin at the next. I liked Blair, he had a tough job undoing the torries mistakes and imo was only shafted by his own people in the shape of a certain Mr Brown

 

I have to say that I never jumped on the bandwagon of wanting Blair out. In fact, I couldn't understand all the clamour for his removal. He was the best thing about the Labour party, in terms of presentation and making the unpopular decisions palatable, by logical prioritising and explanation. But, as usual with political parties/governments, they find a way to screw themselves up over time. Gordon Brown was best as a Chancellor of the Exchequer, with Blair as his leader at Number 10. I wonder how many honest Labour supporters would like to turn the clock back and once again have Tony Blair in power..?

 

I wouldn't mind the broad smile and teeth for a second as long as the country is better run.

[Johnny Bognor]

This group included 0 Tories. Not one of them a) saw it coming, b) had any idea what to do to try and minimize the impact. They would still make cuts NOW and throw this country back into recession.

 

Yes, they did get it wrong at every stage.

 

Hello....they weren't in power. Clown was and he failed big time.

 

As for Vince Cable, he was Chief Economist at Shell so has masses of credibility. He is the most qualified politician when it comes to all things economic. The next person in line is Ken Clarke, who has proven he can do the job (being the best Chancellor in our lifetime).

 

As for Brown, he should even be allowed to be in charge of his own personal bank account.

[Colinjb]

I have to say that I never jumped on the bandwagon of wanting Blair out. In fact, I couldn't understand all the clamour for his removal. He was the best thing about the Labour party, in terms of presentation and making the unpopular decisions palatable, by logical prioritising and explanation. But, as usual with political parties/governments, they find a way to screw themselves up over time. Gordon Brown was best as a Chancellor of the Exchequer, with Blair as his leader at Number 10. I wonder how many honest Labour supporters would like to turn the clock back and once again have Tony Blair in power..?

 

I wouldn't mind the broad smile and teeth for a second as long as the country is better run.

 

I always saw it in a slightly different light. Blair saw the writting on the wall and bolted just in time, leaving Brown way out of his depth with a massive mess to clear up.

[St Landrew]

I always saw it in a slightly different light. Blair saw the writting on the wall and bolted just in time, leaving Brown way out of his depth with a massive mess to clear up.

 

Well, he was being pushed at the time. Wouldn't you eventually get the message if everyone was shouting for you to leave..? The country was fine, and average public opinion goes up and down with every issue of the Sun/Mail/Express, you name it.

 

BTW, I do have a lot of respect for Vince Cable. But then he's unlikely to be tested. Shame really.

[View From The Top]

Hello....they weren't in power. Clown was and he failed big time.

 

 

Sorry, am I defending the current administration?

 

No.

 

I'm pointing out that HM Opposition were even more clueless, and that is saying something, especially as they hope to form the next administration!

[Arizona]

Oh ye of little knowledge.

 

Firstly, the higher band of income tax only comes into effect on earnings OVER that level. However, we suffer lots of indirect taxation. You have highlighted one great one. Council Tax. It is the most unfair tax ever, based on a totally flawed system of house valuations. In cases, pensioners on the state pension (through virtue of living in a family home used by the family over generations, which has increased in value) are forced to pay the same as some on hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. That isn't right, nor is it fair. It is not a society I enjoy living in.

 

The Tories, and morally dubious people such as yourself and colinjb, might have an "I'm alright Jack" attitude, but if the country was left to run like that it would fall apart (in many cases it is still only now we are suffering the wrongs of the last Tory government). I certainly will do all I can to stop your selfish attitude prevailing.

 

Right then...

 

1. I know. Only income above £36k, or whatever the exact threshold is, gets the higher rate. I cannot see ANY bias against poorer people there.

 

2. That point is massively hypocritical. You claim people such as myself and Colin are selfish and only look out for #1 (and in your "Robin Hood" eutopia it seems nobody else is going to). Yet you are claiming pensioners with no income should be able to live in large houses which they cannot afford and the working population should foot the bill. I'm sorry that is just plain wrong. If you are retired and living off a state pension, you should have to make somne sacrifices to live withing your means.

 

3. Morally dubious... nope sorry, you don't have a case there. I'm not Mother Theresa, but I wouldn't call myself selfish either. I have a reasonable income which I have earned. I fail to see why I should take home less so people with unqualified jobs can take home more.

[bungle]

Right then...

 

1. I know. Only income above £36k, or whatever the exact threshold is, gets the higher rate. I cannot see ANY bias against poorer people there.

 

2. That point is massively hypocritical. You claim people such as myself and Colin are selfish and only look out for #1 (and in your "Robin Hood" eutopia it seems nobody else is going to). Yet you are claiming pensioners with no income should be able to live in large houses which they cannot afford and the working population should foot the bill. I'm sorry that is just plain wrong. If you are retired and living off a state pension, you should have to make somne sacrifices to live withing your means.

 

3. Morally dubious... nope sorry, you don't have a case there. I'm not Mother Theresa, but I wouldn't call myself selfish either. I have a reasonable income which I have earned. I fail to see why I should take home less so people with unqualified jobs can take home more.

 

1) Income tax is one of the fairest taxes. However, sadly we rely on high levels of indirect and unfair taxation, which hit the poorest the hardest. That is unfair. What was also worse was that Gordon Brown scrapped the 10p tax rate (one of the best things he introduced). Many of the poorest in society were surviving just because of that rate.

 

2) The Council Tax is the most remarkably unfair tax in this country. It takes NO account of ability to pay, and ruthlessly takes from poorer people based on old house valuations. It is unfair. Many pensioners are finding that their modest family home is now falling into Council Tax bands D, or even E, and many clearly don't have the ability to pay that level of tax. It is time the Council Tax was scrapped, and replaced with a fairer Local Income Tax, so rich people pay more.

 

3) One of the most laughable things is better off people whinging that they might have to pay some tax. Boo hoo. You are so much better off than some of the poorest in city that you just don't know it. I earn less than £20k per year, but even I know how lucky I am compared to many others. Your attitude to jobs stinks as well. Many people work very hard, but are simply unable to do jobs that aren better paid. There is nothing wrong with their work ethic, but they do what they can do. They are continually being shafted by successive governments, because the better off get away with tax loopholes, and whinging about tax.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by bungle

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

1) Income tax is one of the fairest taxes. However, sadly we rely on high levels of indirect and unfair taxation, which hit the poorest the hardest. That is unfair. What was also worse was that Gordon Brown scrapped the 10p tax rate (one of the best things he introduced). Many of the poorest in society were surviving just because of that rate.

 

2) The Council Tax is the most remarkably unfair tax in this country. It takes NO account of ability to pay, and ruthlessly takes from poorer people based on old house valuations. It is unfair. Many pensioners are finding that their modest family home is now falling into Council Tax bands D, or even E, and many clearly don't have the ability to pay that level of tax. It is time the Council Tax was scrapped, and replaced with a fairer Local Income Tax, so rich people pay more.

 

3) One of the most laughable things is better off people whinging that they might have to pay some tax. Boo hoo. You are so much better off than some of the poorest in city that you just don't know it. I earn less than £20k per year, but even I know how lucky I am compared to many others. Your attitude to jobs stinks as well. Many people work very hard, but are simply unable to do jobs that aren't better paid. There is nothing wrong with their work ethic, but they do what they can do. They are continually being shafted by successive governments, because the better off get away with tax loopholes, and whinging about tax.

 

+1. Well said Bungle!

[Colinjb]

3. Morally dubious... nope sorry, you don't have a case there. I'm not Mother Theresa, but I wouldn't call myself selfish either. I have a reasonable income which I have earned. I fail to see why I should take home less so people with unqualified jobs can take home more.

 

Quite. What is morally dubious about that? I worked hard to earn my stripes. Why should people who can't be arsed be able to leach off of that? I have no problem with taxes, everyone whould pay their way, but I do have an issue with an overblown and abuse laden welfare state and system which penalises excellence. I am not a massive earner, but I do bring in enough to be comfortable, for that I am grateful, but it doesn't take a genius to realise that if the hugely wealthy can make a better stake in another nation they will go there! They didn't get rich by needlessly releasing their own funds! Using simple pareto principle it can be understood that the high earners account for a very large proportion of tax, by pushing them out even greater burdon will need to be passed on to the lower earners who cannot ultimately cover the deficit alone.

 

Taxation is not the solution, it can create more issues on top, such as a significant skill drain as people leave in their droves like in the late 60's and 70's.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by Colinjb

[bungle]

Quite. What is morally dubious about that? I worked hard to earn my stripes. Why should people who can't be arsed be able to leach off of that?

 

Yup. Everyone who is poor is leaching. Even those who work full-time in a minimum wage job (which would get them about £11k p.a.). Damn those leachers. What? They're doing the best they can? Never? Surely all poor people are just leaching off me? I'm off to find a tax loophole.

 

Your attitude is exactly why many people hate the Tories.

[Scummer]

Many pensioners are finding that their modest family home is now falling into Council Tax bands D, or even E, and many clearly don't have the ability to pay that level of tax.

 

Council tax banding hasn't been performed for what, 20 years? How are people suddenly finding that they are in a certain band?

[Colinjb]

Yup. Everyone who is poor is leaching. Even those who work full-time in a minimum wage job (which would get them about £11k p.a.). Damn those leachers. What? They're doing the best they can? Never? Surely all poor people are just leaching off me? I'm off to find a tax loophole.

 

Your attitude is exactly why many people hate the Tories.

 

 

Where did I say 'all poor = leaches.' How dare you, stop putting words into my mouth to justify your blinkered perspective.

 

I have issues with benefit cheats and the socialist ideal, not hards workers on lower incomes who are being as badly undermined by the existing labour government as any high earner.

 

Get that chip off your shoulder chap.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by Colinjb

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Just a point about taxation - The way indirect taxation works means than many poorer people pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes - because poor people have to use similar quantities of many taxed items as rich people but have to use up all or nearly all of their income. Consider a poor person who has to drive to work filling up their tank each week with £50 worth - effectively paying say £35 in tax or 70%. A wealthy person who earns 20 times the poor person also fills up with £50 worth a week (and pays tax of £35). Effectively the poor person is paying a much much higher rate of tax. (Obviously this is simplistic and richer people will pay income tax)

 

With regard to the main thrust of the OP. Can someone actually say that they understand what the Tories policies are? All we hear from them are vague descriptions of what they'd like to do but very little substance. This works because Labour are in such a pickle but I've seen little from the Tories to suggest things will improve - in fact their promises to slash spending could easily make things worse. One of the main problems that Labour has is that while most commentators think they were right to spend big to avoid a worse recession (something the Tories were largely against) it is impossible to know how much worse it would've been and the average punter doesn't care.

[JackanorySFC]

Personally come from a Labour supporting family, however having made my own way in life and purely by working f*cking hard and wanting to better myself getting promoted a few times (and falling into the 40% tax band) I'm sick to death of the few bailing out the many. I'm not on super wages, but I don't begrudge people that are, personally I'm ambitious and I'd love to be in their position earning high 6 figures, as it means I can take my kids around the world, send them to the best schools and generally give my family financial security.

 

Why in this country are people so jealous of success? - not everyone, my group of mates all went to the same school and some are doing better than others but none think the world owes them a living and they all work hard. But there seems to be an undercurrent of resentment at anyone wanting to better themself or their family? I've got a good mate that works as a front office trader for JPM, he got a bonus of £200k last year, bought a apartment in Cannes with the money - but he starts work at 5am to get the Asain markets and doesn't finish 'til gone 9pm after the US is well under way, he made the company millions last year so deserves every penny.

 

My company imposed a pay freeze for fiscal 09/10, what ****es me off is Public Sector workers wanting pay increases and job security - something NO-ONE in the Private sector get, therefor I agree wholehartedly with Cameron freeezing pay for anyone on over £18k except for frontline armed forces - that's another thing the Labout Government have completely lost me on - the disgusting treatment of our armed forces, GB spent 35 seconds talking about them in this key note speech, a disgrace!

 

Brown has dithered his way through his unelected Premiership, the lack of vote on the Constitution was a clear cut lie (not saying I'd vot no, just wanted to be asked) and his farcical handling of the biggest poltical scandal this decade (expenses) - no-one can deny Cameron led the way in dealing with that quickly and decicively, oh and all you holier than thou socialists out there, for every Tory grandee claiming for a Duck house, there were 2 sly Labour Champagne socialist MP's claiming for dodgy second homes, hanging baskets and home shopping.

 

The Lib dems are not worth bothering about as they'll never get anywhere near.

 

Rant over.

[Johnny Bognor]

Just a point about taxation - The way indirect taxation works means than many poorer people pay a higher proportion of their income in taxes - because poor people have to use similar quantities of many taxed items as rich people but have to use up all or nearly all of their income. Consider a poor person who has to drive to work filling up their tank each week with £50 worth - effectively paying say £35 in tax or 70%. A wealthy person who earns 20 times the poor person also fills up with £50 worth a week (and pays tax of £35). Effectively the poor person is paying a much much higher rate of tax. (Obviously this is simplistic and richer people will pay income tax)

.

 

It is easy to take a tax in isolation and make it sound unfair, but you need to look at the wider picture.

 

To use your example, the 'poor' person probably bought their car 2nd hand and didn't pay VAT. Say the wealthy person paid £100k for their car, this would include £14,800 worth of VAT.

 

Across a 3 year period, this would equate to £100 per week so looking at the total cost of motoring per £50 pound spent on fuel, the wealthy person is paying more than £135 per week for every £50 spent on fuel.

[Thedelldays]

From an armed forces point of view. I have been in for 10 years so only know what it is like with labour.

 

I will say this for those that have been in long enough will say (every single one of them) that all though no party is perfect with the forces, the Tory party are 100% better for us than the labour lot

[Clapham Saint]

One of the most laughable things is better off people whinging that they might have to pay some tax.

 

....

 

because the better off get away with tax loopholes, and whinging about tax.

 

Yup. Everyone who is poor is leaching. Even those who work full-time in a minimum wage job (which would get them about £11k p.a.). Damn those leachers. What? They're doing the best they can? Never? Surely all poor people are just leaching off me? I'm off to find a tax loophole.

 

Your attitude is exactly why many people hate the Tories.

 

And yours is why many hate old labour/unions.

 

No, not all less well off people are leaching. In fact it will be only a very small proportion.

 

Equally those who are better off are screwing the system through tax avoidance are also very small.

 

Although it is entirely right and proper that those better placed to do so contribute to the state so that it can help those less fortunate without seeking to avoid it at every turn, it is also not appropriate that people who have no desire to ever contribute are given (what some see as) excessive benefits.

 

Demonising anybody who pays higher rate tax does not aid your argument IMO

[Clapham Saint]

Personally come from a Labour supporting family, however having made my own way in life and purely by working f*cking hard and wanting to better myself getting promoted a few times (and falling into the 40% tax band) I'm sick to death of the few bailing out the many. I'm not on super wages, but I don't begrudge people that are, personally I'm ambitious and I'd love to be in their position earning high 6 figures, as it means I can take my kids around the world, send them to the best schools and generally give my family financial security.

 

Why in this country are people so jealous of success? - not everyone, my group of mates all went to the same school and some are doing better than others but none think the world owes them a living and they all work hard. But there seems to be an undercurrent of resentment at anyone wanting to better themself or their family? I've got a good mate that works as a front office trader for JPM, he got a bonus of £200k last year, bought a apartment in Cannes with the money - but he starts work at 5am to get the Asain markets and doesn't finish 'til gone 9pm after the US is well under way, he made the company millions last year so deserves every penny.

 

My company imposed a pay freeze for fiscal 09/10, what ****es me off is Public Sector workers wanting pay increases and job security - something NO-ONE in the Private sector get, therefor I agree wholehartedly with Cameron freeezing pay for anyone on over £18k except for frontline armed forces - that's another thing the Labout Government have completely lost me on - the disgusting treatment of our armed forces, GB spent 35 seconds talking about them in this key note speech, a disgrace!

 

Brown has dithered his way through his unelected Premiership, the lack of vote on the Constitution was a clear cut lie (not saying I'd vot no, just wanted to be asked) and his farcical handling of the biggest poltical scandal this decade (expenses) - no-one can deny Cameron led the way in dealing with that quickly and decicively, oh and all you holier than thou socialists out there, for every Tory grandee claiming for a Duck house, there were 2 sly Labour Champagne socialist MP's claiming for dodgy second homes, hanging baskets and home shopping.

 

The Lib dems are not worth bothering about as they'll never get anywhere near.

 

Rant over.

 

I was about to comment on each paragraph of this individually but actually there is no point as I agree with all of it.

[Patrick Bateman]

As for the rich toff thing.

 

To be honest. I would prefer someone who was educated at the best school and university by the best teachers to run our country. Rather someone from the likes of Millbrook

 

I would like to massively disagree that just because you pay a lot of money to send your children to a "posh" school, it doesn't mean they have the best teachers.

Teachers in state schools actually have to be qualified teachers, for a start ...

 

"1. Do I need a teaching qualification to teach in a private school?

 

private schools are permitted to set their own requirements with regard to qualifications so, unlike state schools, a teaching qualification is not insisted upon. However, times are changing. While previously a private school might have been happy to appoint a teacher on the basis of their academic credentials alone, it is now more likely the case that they prefer teachers to be qualified and experienced."

[Patrick Bateman]

Personally come from a Labour supporting family, however having made my own way in life and purely by working f*cking hard and wanting to better myself getting promoted a few times (and falling into the 40% tax band) I'm sick to death of the few bailing out the many. I'm not on super wages, but I don't begrudge people that are, personally I'm ambitious and I'd love to be in their position earning high 6 figures, as it means I can take my kids around the world, send them to the best schools and generally give my family financial security.

 

Why in this country are people so jealous of success? - not everyone, my group of mates all went to the same school and some are doing better than others but none think the world owes them a living and they all work hard. But there seems to be an undercurrent of resentment at anyone wanting to better themself or their family? I've got a good mate that works as a front office trader for JPM, he got a bonus of £200k last year, bought a apartment in Cannes with the money - but he starts work at 5am to get the Asain markets and doesn't finish 'til gone 9pm after the US is well under way, he made the company millions last year so deserves every penny.

 

My company imposed a pay freeze for fiscal 09/10, what ****es me off is Public Sector workers wanting pay increases and job security - something NO-ONE in the Private sector get, therefor I agree wholehartedly with Cameron freeezing pay for anyone on over £18k except for frontline armed forces - that's another thing the Labout Government have completely lost me on - the disgusting treatment of our armed forces, GB spent 35 seconds talking about them in this key note speech, a disgrace!

 

Brown has dithered his way through his unelected Premiership, the lack of vote on the Constitution was a clear cut lie (not saying I'd vot no, just wanted to be asked) and his farcical handling of the biggest poltical scandal this decade (expenses) - no-one can deny Cameron led the way in dealing with that quickly and decicively, oh and all you holier than thou socialists out there, for every Tory grandee claiming for a Duck house, there were 2 sly Labour Champagne socialist MP's claiming for dodgy second homes, hanging baskets and home shopping.

 

The Lib dems are not worth bothering about as they'll never get anywhere near.

 

Rant over.

 

Very well said. I, like many others in the past year took a 10% rate (or pay if you're a permie) cut, just to stay in contract and keep an income and still work just as hard, if not harder, to prove my worth.

[Scummer]

PB, he said the best school, not the poshest.

[John Boy Saint]

Originally Posted by JustMike

how wrong are you (the last bits) When Labour came into power the country was not in good shape hence why the torries got whipped at that election and by an even bigger margin at the next. I liked Blair, he had a tough job undoing the torries mistakes and imo was only shafted by his own people in the shape of a certain Mr Brown

 

Strange then that Tony Blair recently said he was actually very lucky to inherit one of the healthiest economies of any incoming goverment.

The sad thing is regardless of the current financial situation the labour party have ended up doing what they always do and that is keep spending until we are in masses of debt,they even got a poor deal selling off a load of our gold reserve.

 

Thanks for the back up Olympic.

The main reason why the Tories got the heave-ho was because the country had grown tired of them, and for once a young fresh faced Labour leader had rocked up and talked a different language to the previous windbags that Labour got behind. As many people said in Tony's early days blimey its just like the Tories just under a different coloured flag. So after 18 years of one party leading the country, who were unable to get away with the things that they could in the past under a mask of smoke and mirrors (thanks to the things Thatcher did to make we the people more aware, and responsible for our own destiny) most people fancied a change.

 

Just the cycle of politics, Tories have to come in and sweep up the rubbish the last lot left behind, unfortunately the pill is a bitter one that many people remember for tasting horrible. We all know now the next pill ain't going to taste nice if the Tories get in, Labour will wrap it in shiny colourful paper when they can decide what colours to use, and their pill will be the size of a golf ball and take just as long to digest.