Teachers to 'stay out of pubs'

[Thedelldays]

Don't squinny when the subs get mothballed due to cuts to focus money on Afganistan.

 

Seeing as te just promised to maintain the nuclear missile submarine fleet. Not a bad start.

[View From The Top]

Seeing as te just promised to maintain the nuclear missile submarine fleet. Not a bad start.

 

And you believe that?

 

More gullible than I thought.

[sotonjoe]

When puclic sector pay cuts are referred to, they're talking about the top earners in the civil service.

 

It's a well known fact that teachers and nurses are on three year pay deals and these were only recently agreed (last year I think). There won't be any pay freezes or cuts for them for some time.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Don't squinny when the subs get mothballed due to cuts to focus money on Afganistan.

 

Yep, TDD, you realise you technically work in the public sector right? I.e. the MOD (hence the government) pay your wages...not so much of a 'gravy train' now is it?

[sotonjoe]

Seeing as te just promised to maintain the nuclear missile submarine fleet. Not a bad start.

 

 

Problem is, they're getting girls to clean them right?

[CB Fry]

That's right, cos in the public sector we all earn too much money and aren't accountable to anyone over how money is spent. And none of us have to take a second job to pay the rent. Cos we're all minted and always on holiday and bathing in champagne and laughing our nuts off at the idiot tax payers.

 

I already got the boot once, from the DWP, because of 'Whitehall cuts'. And I honestly only work in the public sector because i want to perform a useful function rather than make money for some qunt. Whoever it is you perceive to be on a 'gravy train' (and they almost certainly aren't), they're never going to be the ones hit by Davey C's reforms.

 

 

Oh behave.

 

Civil service whiners are convinced that "everyone else" gets overtime (as seen in this thread from some deluded teech) "everyone else" gets a pay rise every single year without fail, that "everyone else" doesn't work nearly as hard as they do.

 

Oh no, the tories are threatening a pay freeze for one. sodding. year. after over a decade of eye watering pay rises year in, year out: the threats of strikes are coming already.

 

Absolute joke, you should be grateful to have a bloody job. "Everyone else" doesn't get a pay rise as a matter of course, as a matter of right like our blessed civil service think they should have no questions asked.

 

"Everyone else" doesn't threaten to strike and **** everyone's working and daily lives up the minute the govt doesn't lay down and lavish them with cash like the ever-so-useful Postmen, or the greedy ku nting tube drivers led by greedy parasites like Bob Crow face down in the trough.

 

Inflation busting payrise after inflation busting payrise. That's a gravy train.

 

And as for accountability, the despicable lack of accountability or any attempt to manage public money is rife across the whole public service. Idiots who spend £35,000 on one photocopier because they are sitting on pots and pots of cash and have no grasp of "best value" whatsover. That's a gravy train.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8276991.stm

[View From The Top]

after over a decade of eye watering pay rises year in, year out:

 

Oooooo. Do we all get to make things up now?

 

Your "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" rountine is as tedious as the "whiners" you are whining about.

[View From The Top]

Inflation busting payrise after inflation busting payrise.

 

Oooooo. Lovely. More made up japes. How exciting.

[sotonjoe]

Oh behave.

 

Civil service whiners are convinced that "everyone else" gets overtime (as seen in this thread from some deluded teech) "everyone else" gets a pay rise every single year without fail, that "everyone else" doesn't work nearly as hard as they do.

 

Oh no, the tories are threatening a pay freeze for one. sodding. year. after over a decade of eye watering pay rises year in, year out: the threats of strikes are coming already.

 

Absolute joke, you should be grateful to have a bloody job. "Everyone else" doesn't get a pay rise as a matter of course, as a matter of right like our blessed civil service think they should have no questions asked.

 

"Everyone else" doesn't threaten to strike and **** everyone's working and daily lives up the minute the govt doesn't lay down and lavish them with cash like the ever-so-useful Postmen, or the greedy ku nting tube drivers led by greedy parasites like Bob Crow face down in the trough.

 

Inflation busting payrise after inflation busting payrise. That's a gravy train.

 

And as for accountability, the despicable lack of accountability or any attempt to manage public money is rife across the whole public service. Idiots who spend £35,000 on one photocopier because they are sitting on pots and pots of cash and have no grasp of "best value" whatsover. That's a gravy train.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8276991.stm

 

 

What on earth has that link got to do with cutting or freezing teachers' pay? It actually states that cuts won't be made to front line jobs. You can read right?

[CB Fry]

What on earth has that link got to do with cutting or freezing teachers' pay? It actually states that cuts won't be made to front line jobs. You can read right?

 

 

It's a link that references profligate spending in the public sector, which is what I am talking about in the sentences before I pasted the link. You can read, right?

[CB Fry]

Oooooo. Do we all get to make things up now?

 

Your "Outraged of Tunbridge Wells" rountine is as tedious as the "whiners" you are whining about.

 

 

Since 1997 teachers and other public sector workers have had significant payrises, and inflation busting pay rises. Funnilly enough, I supported them. It's a fact, jack.

 

It's when they threaten strike action the very second that looks like it might end that makes me, and most tax payers, pretty pig sick.

[bungle]

Time to scrap all our nuclear subs and save £70billion. Thats a public sector squeeze I'm in favour of.

[Thedelldays]

Time to scrap all our nuclear subs and save £70billion. Thats a public sector squeeze I'm in favour of.

 

If only that was going to happen any time soon, eh

[the stain]

Oh behave.

 

Civil service whiners are convinced that "everyone else" gets overtime (as seen in this thread from some deluded teech) "everyone else" gets a pay rise every single year without fail, that "everyone else" doesn't work nearly as hard as they do.

 

Oh no, the tories are threatening a pay freeze for one. sodding. year. after over a decade of eye watering pay rises year in, year out: the threats of strikes are coming already.

 

Absolute joke, you should be grateful to have a bloody job. "Everyone else" doesn't get a pay rise as a matter of course, as a matter of right like our blessed civil service think they should have no questions asked.

 

"Everyone else" doesn't threaten to strike and **** everyone's working and daily lives up the minute the govt doesn't lay down and lavish them with cash like the ever-so-useful Postmen, or the greedy ku nting tube drivers led by greedy parasites like Bob Crow face down in the trough.

 

Inflation busting payrise after inflation busting payrise. That's a gravy train.

 

And as for accountability, the despicable lack of accountability or any attempt to manage public money is rife across the whole public service. Idiots who spend £35,000 on one photocopier because they are sitting on pots and pots of cash and have no grasp of "best value" whatsover. That's a gravy train.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8276991.stm

 

One of many mistakes your making there is treating all the public sector workers as the same (along with mistaking the RMT as somehow representative of how unions work, and seemingly having missed the thrust of my post entirely).

 

I can obviously only speak for myself and my organisation (unlike you who seem to be able to speak for everyone, you tedious blowhard), but our eye-watering payrises have amounted to a decrease in real terms in each of the last 5 years.

 

If I indicated anywhere that I wasn't grateful I had a job, that wasn't my intent. I just resent the implication that anyone employed by the government is living high off everyone elses tax pound.

[View From The Top]

Since 1997 teachers and other public sector workers have had significant payrises, and inflation busting pay rises. Funnilly enough, I supported them.

 

So you supported "The Gravy Train".

 

Please, make your mind up Mr Angry.

[CB Fry]

So you supported "The Gravy Train".

 

Please, make your mind up Mr Angry.

 

 

Eh? You can't get your head round how opinions and ideas develop over time in response to events/circumstance/context? I form an opinion ten years ago and then that's it for life? Is that how you live?

 

I can't remember whether you're one of the teachers on this thread but god help our kids if you are because I think you're a bit simple.

 

It was right to improve pay and conditions for the public sector, but when you see strikes, threats of strikes and we're-so-hard-done-by not long after those improvements then that's its right to question what exactly is going on here.

[CB Fry]

I can obviously only speak for myself and my organisation (unlike you who seem to be able to speak for everyone, you tedious blowhard)

 

 

Nice. It's an internet forum. No one is "speaking" for "anyone".

 

At the end of the day there are too many chips on too many shoulders in the public sector and the moaning about how hard up they are is a bit tiresome, especially at the end of a decade of unprecedented investment into the public sector that is going to come to a serious, grinding, miserable halt from about May next year.

 

You've had your best years. You've had investment upon investment. That's it. And still the moaning came.

 

Under the Tories it is going to be misery out there for the publuc sector. As my old mum used to say "you lot don't know you're born". Get ready for the pinch.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

Since 1997 teachers and other public sector workers have had significant payrises, and inflation busting pay rises. Funnilly enough, I supported them. It's a fact, jack.

 

It's when they threaten strike action the very second that looks like it might end that makes me, and most tax payers, pretty pig sick.

 

I've had a SIGNIFICANT payrise?!?! Do me a favour! It's a shame I can't show you my pay slips to prove this!

[LGTL]

Nice. It's an internet forum. No one is "speaking" for "anyone".

 

At the end of the day there are too many chips on too many shoulders in the public sector and the moaning about how hard up they are is a bit tiresome, especially at the end of a decade of unprecedented investment into the public sector that is going to come to a serious, grinding, miserable halt from about May next year.

 

You've had your best years. You've had investment upon investment. That's it. And still the moaning came.

 

Under the Tories it is going to be misery out there for the publuc sector. As my old mum used to say "you lot don't know you're born". Get ready for the pinch.

 

Thing is, the public sector hold all the aces.

 

They know they can strike, we know they can strike, everyone knows they can strike and cause utter utter chaos.

 

Doctors, nurses, posties, teachers...if they all went on a significant strike the whole country would come to a complete stand still.

 

I hope call me Dave realises that.

[View From The Top]

Eh? You can't get your head round how opinions and ideas develop over time in response to events/circumstance/context? I form an opinion ten years ago and then that's it for life? Is that how you live?

 

I can't remember whether you're one of the teachers on this thread but god help our kids if you are because I think you're a bit simple.

 

It was right to improve pay and conditions for the public sector, but when you see strikes, threats of strikes and we're-so-hard-done-by not long after those improvements then that's its right to question what exactly is going on here.

 

I do indeed teach, maths, in a college, community and adult education setting.

 

I also run my own successful buisness.

 

I rock.

 

Now, get back to bugger flipping you minion you've profit to generate for your masters.

[View From The Top]

Thing is, the public sector hold all the aces.

 

They know they can strike, we know they can strike, everyone knows they can strike and cause utter utter chaos.

 

Doctors, nurses, posties, teachers...if they all went on a significant strike the whole country would come to a complete stand still.

 

I hope call me Dave realises that.

 

 

Eveyone knows that it needs to be cut back and that there is too much waste so I just hope, whoever, is in power, targets those cuts away from the frontline services.

 

It's layers of management that needs stripping away, that's where the real waste is.

[Draino76]

I do indeed teach, maths, in a college, community and adult education setting.

 

I also run my own successful buisness.

 

I rock.

 

Now, get back to bugger flipping you minion you've profit to generate for your masters.

 

 

Well done on the rest.

[Rattlehead]

I've had a SIGNIFICANT payrise?!?! Do me a favour! It's a shame I can't show you my pay slips to prove this!

 

You can scan them in, upload them to photobucket or imageshack and post the link on here. Failure to do so must be taken as proof that Mr Fry is correct.

[View From The Top]

Well done on the rest.

 

:smt100

[View From The Top]

You can scan them in, upload them to photobucket or imageshack and post the link on here. Failure to do so must be taken as proof that Mr Fry is correct.

 

From 97 - 02 teachers in the state sector did get big rises. Since then, no they haven't.

 

As a teacher, albeit in a college and no longer schools, teachers have fu ck all to whinge about when it comes to salary.

[sotonjoe]

It's a link that references profligate spending in the public sector, which is what I am talking about in the sentences before I pasted the link. You can read, right?

 

 

A link which has nothing to do with the original conversation.

[sotonjoe]

From 97 - 02 teachers in the state sector did get big rises. Since then, no they haven't.

 

As a teacher, albeit in a college and no longer schools, teachers have fu ck all to whinge about when it comes to salary.

 

 

Are you implying they've had no pay rise since 2002 - as that simply isn't true!?!?!?

[View From The Top]

Are you implying they've had no pay rise since 2002 - as that simply isn't true!?!?!?

 

Not at all, I'm saying that they haven't had big pay rises, on par with the early years of of the Labour government.

 

From around 2002 it's been around 2% - 2.5%.

[Johnny Bognor]

From the Deopt of DCSF

 

Comparative maximum salaries for good, experienced, classroom teacher

 

 

1997 = £21,318

2007 = £34,281

 

Cash increase = 60.80%

Real Terms Increase (allowing for inflation) = 25.9%

 

 

I would suggest that 25.9% increase over and above inflation is more than generous.

[View From The Top]

From the Deopt of DCSF

 

Comparative maximum salaries for good, experienced, classroom teacher

 

 

1997 = £21,318

2007 = £34,281

 

Cash increase = 60.80%

Real Terms Increase (allowing for inflation) = 25.9%

 

 

I would suggest that 25.9% increase over and above inflation is more than generous.

 

Are you being "Delldays" on purpose today Mr Bognor?

 

As I said, the big increases, deserved I feel, were between '97 - '02.

 

Since then they've been pretty static at around 2% - 2.5%.

 

In addition, to get the scale that you have quoted will mean teaching experience of around 7 years.

 

I could also say, if I felt inclinced, that it shows how the previous Tory government placed little value of teachers etc and the incoming Labour government corrected that.

 

Those at the chalkface, in the main, earn their corn. It's the layers, upon layers, of pointless positions and beaurocracy away from the chalkface that sucks up and wastes too much money. The same is true of the NHS and MoD.

[CB Fry]

A link which has nothing to do with the original conversation.

 

 

Well the original thread was about this "you can't go to the pub" thing and the debate has broadened since then. It's quite common on internet forums, you know.

 

Profligacy in the civil service is part of the same problem, which is a disengagement from the real world, what everyone else gets paid and the kind of budgeting that goes on in the private sector that is alien to the public sector.

[View From The Top]

kind of budgeting that goes on in the private sector that is alien to the public sector.

 

That is, IMHO, the crux of the problem, along with way, way, way too many middle managers who are not involved at the delivery end.

[sotonjoe]

Well the original thread was about this "you can't go to the pub" thing and the debate has broadened since then. It's quite common on internet forums, you know.

 

Profligacy in the civil service is part of the same problem, which is a disengagement from the real world, what everyone else gets paid and the kind of budgeting that goes on in the private sector that is alien to the public sector.

 

"the public sector" as the umbrella term that you keep banding around is quite different to "teachers", despite the fact that the teaching prfoession is part of the public sector; that's my point. You keep on discussing what you want though, that's not my problem!

[sotonjoe]

From the Deopt of DCSF

 

Comparative maximum salaries for good, experienced, classroom teacher

 

 

1997 = £21,318

2007 = £34,281

 

Cash increase = 60.80%

Real Terms Increase (allowing for inflation) = 25.9%

 

 

I would suggest that 25.9% increase over and above inflation is more than generous.

 

Only if you think the initial salary was acceptable. It looks ridiculous from where I'm sititng, although I don't have the economic foresight to adjust it for inflation and thus put it into perspective.

 

If you think teachers have had it too good when it comes to pay rises, I think you're misguided.

 

You should probably note, the £34k figure quoted is based on classroom teachers who also have extra pay for additional roles and responsibilities and / or are being paid based on higher pay scales than standard. The basic pay scales can be found here . £30,842 is the basic salary of a teacher who has been in the profession for six years or more, unless they have additional roles or have been accepted onto a higher pay scale for strong performers.

[Johnny Bognor]

Are you being "Delldays" on purpose today Mr Bognor?

 

As I said, the big increases, deserved I feel, were between '97 - '02.

 

Since then they've been pretty static at around 2% - 2.5%.

 

Considering inflation is currently -1.6% and the number of people losing their jobs and taking pay cuts in the public sector highlights that 2%-2.5% is pretty damn good.

 

This means that their real standard of living is increasing year on year at about 3.5% during the worst economic period since WWII

 

Then you get crap like this......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7996920.stm

 

...and wonder why people like CB Fry say what they do.

 

The fact of the matter is that teachers (amoungst other public sector workers) have it damn cushy yet they complain? How does that work then?

 

210,000 people lost their jobs in the three months to July.

 

You should probably note, the £34k figure quoted is based on classroom teachers who also have extra pay for additional roles and responsibilities and / or are being paid based on higher pay scales than standard. The basic pay scales can be found here . £30,842 is the basic salary of a teacher who has been in the profession for six years or more, unless they have additional roles or have been accepted onto a higher pay scale for strong performers.

 

My figures are from here:

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/pns/pnattach/20080008/1.html

[View From The Top]

Tut, tut.

 

So you are judging previous pay rises by todays inflation rate? Shall we judge all pay rises that way?

 

You do yourself no favours saying teachers have it cushy. It shows a level of ignornace that I hoped you were above.

[CB Fry]

"the public sector" as the umbrella term that you keep banding around is quite different to "teachers", despite the fact that the teaching prfoession is part of the public sector; that's my point. You keep on discussing what you want though, that's not my problem!

 

 

Wasn't the link I posted very specifically about schools though?

[CB Fry]

That is, IMHO, the crux of the problem, along with way, way, way too many middle managers who are not involved at the delivery end.

 

 

This I agree with Too many flipping management consultants also.

[CB Fry]

Tut, tut.

 

So you are judging previous pay rises by todays inflation rate? Shall we judge all pay rises that way?

 

You do yourself no favours saying teachers have it cushy. It shows a level of ignornace that I hoped you were above.

 

 

Regardless of the inflation rate 2-2.5% pay rise, year in, year out is bloody good. People in the private sector simply do not get the guaranteed pay rises the public sector get.

[Ponty]

True, even in the most frivolous of overblown industries we had pay cuts this year.

[View From The Top]

Regardless of the inflation rate 2-2.5% pay rise, year in, year out is bloody good. People in the private sector simply do not get the guaranteed pay rises the public sector get.

 

But you are free to negotiate your own are you not?

 

If you are good at your job you can secure yourself inflation busting pay rises year on year, and many have.

 

My rise this year was 1%. Next it is 1%. My results are fantastic and I'm considered outstanding by OFSTED but can I go and secure a rise? No. I crack on without complaint as the career is one I chose knowing the ups and downs of it.

 

Just because times are now tough, those who reaped the rewards of the private sector are whinging. Well, tough tits. You made your choices and we made ours.

 

Those in the private sector had the same choices so instead of whinging about what they haven't got maybe they should look at their themselves and ask why they chose their career.

[View From The Top]

I watched an interview with the head of the Confederation of Small Business at the Tory shindig this week.

 

I was gobsmacked when he said that large employers were using the recession as an excuse to shed workers and make the remainder work harder, just to boost profits by playing on fear.

 

I'm very grateful to be insulated (at the moment) from that but as in any business, if I was sh it at my job and failed to deliver, then my job would be at risk.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by View From The Top

[CB Fry]

But you are free to negotiate your own are you not?

 

If you are good at your job you can secure yourself inflation busting pay rises year on year, and many have.

 

My rise this year was 1%. Next it is 1%. My results are fantastic and I'm considered outstanding by OFSTED but can I go and secure a rise? No. I crack on without complaint as the career is one I chose knowing the ups and downs of it.

 

Just because times are now tough, those who reaped the rewards of the private sector are whinging. Well, tough tits. You made your choices and we made ours.

 

Those in the private sector had the same choices so instead of whinging about what they haven't got maybe they should look at their themselves and ask why they chose their career.

 

 

I think you've been watching too much Terry and June. People don't knock on their bosses door and "negotiate their own" pay rise in 2009. Not in any company of any reasonable size anyway.

 

In the company I work for (it's a multinational) my pay has gone up but it is all performance linked and if you're good you move up pay grades and move up pay "zones" (ie get promoted). I've been lucky enough, and worked hard enough, to benefit from both those things this year and previously.

 

But across the board 2-2.5% rises no questions asked year in year out is just fairy land in my company and those like it the private sector.

 

That really has been the point of my ranting - the misconception that the private sector get loads of pay rises, get loads of over time. We don't.

 

I think teachers have "reaped the rewards" just as much as any average private sector workers, as the figures further up the thread has shown. You've made your choice, and you're happy with it and you get a no questions asked pay rise year in year out. I've made mine, I work just as hard as you and get performance related pay. I'm happy, you're happy.

 

Lets hope we're both happy come ten-ish.

[sotonjoe]

Wasn't the link I posted very specifically about schools though?

 

 

I don't think so, no ... but importantly it wasn't about teachers! Teachers don't authorise the purchase of photocopiers as per your £35k example.

 

In fact, you'd be amazed at the number of state school Heads who now come in from an industry (read 'private sector') background, and many schools have 'business managers' who essentially run the money side of things.

 

Any errors in this side of things have very little to do with 'teachers', if, by teachers, you mean the people teaching the kids.

[sotonjoe]

 

 

 

My figures are from here:

http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/pns/pnattach/20080008/1.html

 

Sure, but my point stands. If you're trying to skew the pay of 'teachers', you should be aware that their pay packets often incorporate additional allowances for extra responsibilities outside of their usual remit. £30148 is the maximum salary a teacher can earn unless they apply, and are approved, to be paid using a higher scale upon completion of at least six years service, or are gaining additional pay in the ways referred to above.

[View From The Top]

I don't think so, no ... but importantly it wasn't about teachers! Teachers don't authorise the purchase of photocopiers as per your £35k example.

 

In fact, you'd be amazed at the number of state school Heads who now come in from an industry (read 'private sector') background, and many schools have 'business managers' who essentially run the money side of things.

 

Any errors in this side of things have very little to do with 'teachers', if, by teachers, you mean the people teaching the kids.

 

The secondary school my wife works in has a business manager on £60k per year.

 

It's these layers, forced onto people, that need stripping out.

[Johnny Bognor]

Tut, tut.

 

So you are judging previous pay rises by todays inflation rate? Shall we judge all pay rises that way?

 

 

OK, current pay rises agreed a while ago shouldn't bear relevance to todays inflation rate. However, if almost zero inflation / deflation persists, you won't have a problem with a pay freeze, will you?

 

Where in hell does the unions claim for a 10% rise come from?

 

Sure, but my point stands. If you're trying to skew the pay of 'teachers', you should be aware that their pay packets often incorporate additional allowances for extra responsibilities outside of their usual remit. £30148 is the maximum salary a teacher can earn unless they apply, and are approved, to be paid using a higher scale upon completion of at least six years service, or are gaining additional pay in the ways referred to above.

 

 

To be fair, I wasn't trying to skew teachers pay, I merely took the stats from the Dept for Children Schools & Families.

 

Anyway, sounds tough.....

 

Meanwhile in the real world, in the 18-month period from the start of the recession in mid-2008 until the end of 2009 we will witness the loss of around three quarters of a million jobs.

 

That's not far off TWICE the entire teaching profession in 18 months on the scrap heap.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[sotonjoe]

The secondary school my wife works in has a business manager on £60k per year.

 

It's these layers, forced onto people, that need stripping out.

 

sure, i agree

[sotonjoe]

 

Meanwhile in the real world, in the 18-month period from the start of the recession in mid-2008 until the end of 2009 we will witness the loss of around three quarters of a million jobs.

 

That's not far off TWICE the entire teaching profession in 18 months on the scrap heap.

 

 

well, I guess market forces will dictate that those jobs need to go, whereas we'll need the teachers to get on with teaching the kids. Unless ... you know something I don't;)

[Johnny Bognor]

well, I guess market forces will dictate that those jobs need to go, whereas we'll need the teachers to get on with teaching the kids. Unless ... you know something I don't;)

 

Jeez, I thought you lot were socialists.

 

It is the way of the world, but before whining about whether you're getting 2%, 3% or 4% or whining about whether you can get bladdered on a friday night, just spare a thought for the 750,000 people, children and families that will suffer as a result of this recession. Many of these people weren't intelligent enough to qualify for being a teacher and had no choice but to work in "expendable" jobs in the private sector - not all of them had the choices you did.

 

...and many of you lot rip into Cameron because of his priveledged upbringing.

 

 

...so all in all, teachers won't get any sympathy from me (or many others).

 

..and as I said and will say again, teachers have it cushy.

 

 

As for the socialist teachers, biggest bunch of hypocrites if you ask me. They're only socialist when it suits them and sod everyone else. With that attitude, I can see a few closet tories in the making.

Edited 9 October, 2009 by Johnny Bognor