Too many youngsters starting

[chivvy1664]

Im all for the bringing the youngsters on but cannot help feel that we are trying to bring to many through at once. In the good old days we brought through maybe 3 youngsters at a time they intergrated with senior pros and developed well. We seem to playing youngster for the sake of it. When they may not be even ready/Good enough. I would like to see Stern John to start against qpr and Wotton to replace Gillett. Mcgoldrick can play wide right as he is crap just off the front man. DOnt shove Lallana out there.

[B Rabbit]

Which of the youngsters would you replace and with who?

Euell in for Schneirerieldlelninin / Gillett?? LOL

Rudi in for Surman....Holmes...Lallana?

BWP? cracking player...oh wait..barn door, bad attitude and criminal.

[Wade Garrett]

Careful, you'll be called negative because you're not buying into Rupert's masterplan.

[Wade Garrett]

Which of the youngsters would you replace and with who?

Euell in for Schneirerieldlelninin / Gillett?? LOL

Rudi in for Surman....Holmes...Lallana?

BWP? cracking player...oh wait..barn door, bad attitude and criminal.

 

 

To be fair, Euell finished last season really well in the centre of the park. Spiderman or Gillet, take your pick. They were both crap against Blackpool.

[Saint Bones]

I think the fact that these youngsters are already used to playing with each other from the reserves and youth leagues plays a part in their selection as well.

 

....and well we tried the old journeyman approach last season - to not much success.

 

I do however like the fact we do have at least a few senior pros in the squad in Perrry, Killer and Davis.

[Saint Martini]

To be fair, Euell finished last season really well in the centre of the park. Spiderman or Gillet, take your pick. They were both crap against Blackpool.

 

And one bad match warrants a change? It doesn't work that way, especially when you play youngsters who are a bit more inconsistent. Anyway, in preseason it seemed Euell did quite well in some matches in the Llalana role but if there's one player I wouldn't drop. Bad luck for them I suppose. The one change I might understand is playing John upfront and switching DMG to the wing. I'm not sure White is ready yet and neither is Thomson. Dyer and BWP could play there perhaps but I thought Dyer was very dissapointing after a good first few mins against blackpool.

[70's Mike]

I think the fact that these youngsters are already used to playing with each other from the reserves and youth leagues plays a part in their selection as well.

 

....and well we tried the old journeyman approach last season - to not much success.

 

I do however like the fact we do have at least a few senior pros in the squad in Perrry, Killer and Davis.

 

Agree but history of the club shows you need to have experience at the back, midfield and upfront. We , imo, really need an experienced midfield player and striker.

A mix of 5 experienced plus 6 lesser experienced would be beneficial to the younger players in the long term.

[Weston Saint]

I am all for a side committed to Saints cause with the hunger and desire that they are showing. Very refreshing in the present era of football. BUT I agree with the original poster that we appear to be bringing in too many inexperienced youngsters at the same time.

 

We will struggle and we may get relegated (although on the showing so far suggests a mid to safe lower table position at the season end) However, it is difficult to see an alternative now the "ball is rolling". These kids have been sold the idea that they will be part of the team. Our older highly paid players did not show the same motivation as these young players are showing.

 

On balance I am prepared to buy into the idea. My reasoning is that if we struggle it will be as a team learning and growing with the experience. IF (I know we could lose a couple of the better ones to fund the clubs existence going forward) the majority stay together Saints and the supporters will be enriched with a good style of play in the future years.

 

If it goes tits up so what, we had just about reached that proverbial position last season both financial and on the pitch. I for one have had more pleasure from watching a couple of games this season that most of last.

[Wade Garrett]

If you have better ideas then it's best to state them rather than carrying on with the silly comments like that and trying to force everyone into 2 "easy to argue" groups.

 

Sorry to spoil your simplicity, but I know many, many anti-Rupert saints fans who are positive about the way things are going. Most of them because they've watched the youth and reserve teams in recent years, and seen the crap we've put up with in the first team.

 

 

There we go, didn't take too long for one of Rupert's army to chip in. Look who we have out of the side - Wootton, Euell, Skacel, John and make room for them in the first XI by replacing lesser players. It's not rocket science.

 

It seems to me we are playing an inexperienced side solely on a publicity angle. In my opinion it is suicide.

 

Funnily enough, I don't know any anti-Rupert saints fans who are happy about things at the moment. I am not denying the youngsters aren't giving it their all, but so would a side of Southern League journeymen. It's just not enough.

 

There are a few plusses to be fair - Holmes gets a good ball in, Mcgoldrick looks a bit of a handful and Lallana looks a good bet.

[Scummer]

Christ, one poor game, and it is just that. 1 game. In all our games this season we've played badly once.

 

We may have only had one 'bad game', but at the same time I don't think we've managed to string a good 90 minutes together yet. We've had bad spells in every game.

[Saint Billy]

There are so many kids playing because imo this is part of the money making master plan, more so than gaining promotiion.

 

Bring them on and then sell them for a handsome profit as soon as there are any takers ready to be mugged. We are and will be merely spectators of a business plan rather than watching a side realistically trying to acheive something.

 

As good as it maybe to watch some spirited football from the kids, there is not enough strengh in depth and plain old blood and guts for us to challenge.

[Johnny Shearer]

A balance is needed but it is a question of find the right mix of youth and experience.

 

I'd agree, Stern would lead the line up well and if you add in Wotton, that would give a bit of steel to the side.

 

However it's how JP does that will count. For instance against the Blackpool game, we could see Gillet wasn't havign the best of games and maybe should have come off at half-time.

 

A spine of Davis/Svensson/Perry/Wotton/Stern would be good supplemented with the youth.

 

With Euell and possibly Rudi (if and when he gets his motivation back) coming in and fighting for places alongside the others.

[eelpie]

I think the fact that these youngsters are already used to playing with each other from the reserves and youth leagues plays a part in their selection as well.

 

....and well we tried the old journeyman approach last season - to not much success.

 

I do however like the fact we do have at least a few senior pros in the squad in Perrry, Killer and Davis.

 

Good points on this thread. My feeling is that in the past youngsters like Wayne Bridge were brilliantly mentored by top quality professionals in the team. With respect, Perry, Thomas and Wotton are not in that class, so our promising youngsters are currently disadvantaged in not playing alongside enough players of the calibre of say Marsden who did much to inspire Bridge's progress.

[saintjay77]

For a young team I dont think the ballance is too bad TBH. Only problem position IMO is the right wing, as others have said maybe white and patterson are not quite ready for week in week out action and there skill will only be seen in flashes. Trouble is we havnt got someone experienced that can do a good enough job there either. Anyone we have for that position has faults be it expeirience, speed or skill. Dyer is probably the closest to solving the right wing problem but he still needs to learn to pass and go and he hardly adds a wealth of experience to the team.

 

I do think we need an older head further up the pitch and maybe Euell in the hole is the answer but again as others have said I cant see who I would drop to make that happen.

 

As long as we are creating the chances we have a fighting chance that the finishing touch will start to click and we will start putting games out of reach before the final mins.

 

I am fully prepared for inconsistancy though and except that many results will not go our way for this very reason. Safty is what I am after this season and i do believe we can achive it without a sweat on the final day.

[Ash]

We may have only had one 'bad game', but at the same time I don't think we've managed to string a good 90 minutes together yet. We've had bad spells in every game.

No ****. What people need to realise is that we are not going to play well and dominate games for a full ninety minutes, we were incredible against Derby and didn't do it then. The best teams in the league/country/world hardly string a good ninety minutes together that often so I would hardly use that as a stick to beat the kids with just yet.

I think, to make a change, Saints fans are getting carried away in their search for a negative.

[redkeith]

I think that Gillett needs a rest, as bringing in Wotton will give us more height at the back, and could help with the airial bombardment that every team will try on us if they watched the Blackpool game.

 

Also, Stern will give us more defensive cover at set peices, and is more likely to get on the end of Holmes's crosses than DMG. I think that DMg should go wide right and Llalalllana ( is that enough L's ) stay where he is, as the team shape dissapeared when he dropped back in the Blackpool game.

[ottery st mary]

Wotton now he is fit will answer a lot of the problems.

 

Sorry, forgot and Cork.

Edited 10 September, 2008 by ottery st mary

[Professor]

So a one-goal defeat against Blackpoool, to a penalty, and suddenly the 2-goal win against Birmingham doesn't count. The three league defeats have all been by one goal, which does not indicate the team is being outplayed. Fact is the Blackpool game could have gone either way. Lucky we have a head coach to pick the team, because if it was done by a committee of fans who want to change after every game, stability would be the very last thing we would have. Coaches don't just use performance in matches to assess the team, important as that is, they also use performance in training. The starting line up this week will reflect both, which might or might not show a change or two, but don't expect JP to throw out the babies with the bathwater.

Personally, based on Blackpool, I'd drop Killer, but maybe he'll do better in training this week.

[derry]

I am all for a side committed to Saints cause with the hunger and desire that they are showing. Very refreshing in the present era of football. BUT I agree with the original poster that we appear to be bringing in too many inexperienced youngsters at the same time.

 

We will struggle and we may get relegated (although on the showing so far suggests a mid to safe lower table position at the season end) However, it is difficult to see an alternative now the "ball is rolling". These kids have been sold the idea that they will be part of the team. Our older highly paid players did not show the same motivation as these young players are showing.

 

On balance I am prepared to buy into the idea. My reasoning is that if we struggle it will be as a team learning and growing with the experience. IF (I know we could lose a couple of the better ones to fund the clubs existence going forward) the majority stay together Saints and the supporters will be enriched with a good style of play in the future years.

 

If it goes tits up so what, we had just about reached that proverbial position last season both financial and on the pitch. I for one have had more pleasure from watching a couple of games this season that most of last.

 

We fundamentally agree, Ron. I have a problem with the proposition to play experienced players, who in the main have been failures. I have no problem in experienced players who have the pace, game and intelligence to enhance the young team.

 

What we can't do is confuse experience with improvement. It is the quality of the experience that is fundamental.

 

I would go so far as to say that unless the experience is quality, it will reduce the effectveness of the young team.

 

This way, we are going in the long term direction, this year and next year may see gradual improvement in position, but if we can contain the financial attrition and keep most of the players we are bringing through, I can see this working.

 

You can bet your bottom dollar that the management and board see it this way too. Better this, than the CCC dross of previous seasons. I didn't enjoy the result against Blackpool and some of the play was disapointing after previous performances, but still enjoyable at times. I can't say there were any games that we lost last year, I could say that about.

[West End Saint]

I would bring Cork in at right back Stern John up front and play DMG wide right I think these changes are justified and if Gillett is having a mare like against blackpool bring on Wotton pdq

[derry]

If you have better ideas then it's best to state them rather than carrying on with the silly comments like that and trying to force everyone into 2 "easy to argue" groups.

 

Sorry to spoil your simplicity, but I know many, many anti-Rupert saints fans who are positive about the way things are going. Most of them because they've watched the youth and reserve teams in recent years, and seen the crap we've put up with in the first team.

 

You are absolutely right in your second paragraph. I couldn't abide Rupert Lowe, but he has hardly put a foot wrong since returning. He is backing his and I suspect Clive Woodward's judgement. I like what I see, surely that is the only reason we go to the matches for.

[John B]

If the youngsters are in the opinion of Jan better than the seasoned pros then they should be played as they have the potential to improve.

 

Having only seen one game ie the Blackpool one

 

I thought Svennson White Gillett and Schederlin Poor

 

James Dyerand Surman OK

 

Perry Lallana McGoldrick Holmes (first half) Wotton John Good

 

in that match.

 

I believe that Svennson Gillett and Schederlin have played well in other matches

 

I dont think we should change the team because of one poor game after all most players had played three games in Eight days.

 

 

However I expect Skacel Euell John and Wotton to be fully involved in the First Team unless they are loaned out

Edited 10 September, 2008 by John B

[Alanh]

It's way tpoo early to judge whether this season's experiment with the kids will work out or not. The time to decide that will be after Xmas when the team have got used to the rigours of regular matches and poorer playing conditions.

 

I admit that I'm surprised that we are playing so many youngsters. Before the season started I expected 5 or maybe 6 in the squad, rather than 7 or 8 in the first 11, however as others have said we have only had one poor performance so far. If they maintain the ration of one overall poor game in every 6 played then we will have a decent enough season and probably end up mid tale. If we can't maintin that level of performance and the Blackpool game becomes the norm then we are in trouble. No way to know which way it will go yet so all we can do is support them.

[saintjay77]

So a one-goal defeat against Blackpoool, to a penalty, and suddenly the 2-goal win against Birmingham doesn't count. The three league defeats have all been by one goal, which does not indicate the team is being outplayed. Fact is the Blackpool game could have gone either way. Lucky we have a head coach to pick the team, because if it was done by a committee of fans who want to change after every game, stability would be the very last thing we would have. Coaches don't just use performance in matches to assess the team, important as that is, they also use performance in training. The starting line up this week will reflect both, which might or might not show a change or two, but don't expect JP to throw out the babies with the bathwater.

Personally, based on Blackpool, I'd drop Killer, but maybe he'll do better in training this week.

 

I agree with this and the only reason I havent suggested leaving out killer before is because i think he more than anyone will think he didnt have a good game and he more than anyone will be working hard to right the wrongs witch will be enough to get a starting place in the team barring injury.

 

based on all the games we have played so far this season I still think we are 1 expeienced player short of a really good team but like I said before there are very few I would drop for the experienced players we have at the club.

 

Im sure JP can see this and previous line ups suggest he is only looking at 1 or 2 positions that need to be tinkered with. Otherwise he is trying to get the team to play to there strenghts. If they can add the finishing touch then all the build up play will look fantastic.

[Toomer]

IMO the spine of the team should be wise heads with the youth round them.

[70's Mike]

IMO the spine of the team should be wise heads with the youth round them.

 

 

there speaks another wise head

[buctootim]

IMO the spine of the team should be wise heads with the youth round them.

 

Where might we get some of these wise heads? 'Inconsistent want away Skacel'; 'very inconsistent Saganowski' and 'very occasionally I can be arsed to play Euell' could all benefit from some help.

[slickmick]

I would keep with the same team and system for the QPR game.

We have had two weeks off to rest and re-group after the Blackpool game.

There seems to be a big call for Stern to lead the line, but I would like to see what this Spurs loanee striker can offer. McGoldrich is the kind of player that splits opinions, a bit like Rasiak. I'm still not convinced about DMG but his goal ratio this season can't be argued with.

Wotton definately adds some steel and experience but I have equally been impressed with Gillett. Half a game each maybe ?

 

Anyone remember the Leeds team of about 10 years ago that was full of youngsters such as Smith,bowyer,Ferdinand ect ? A young team that won the Prem and made the semis of the Champions league. It proves that it can work.

[Saint Martini]

IMO the spine of the team should be wise heads with the youth round them.

 

So the only way for young central defenders, midfielders and attackers to break through is by being played out of position? I agree that there need to be some more experienced players in a team but that doesn't have to be the so called spine. They might as well be the right back and the left winger.

[Secret Site Agent]

Im all for the bringing the youngsters on but cannot help feel that we are trying to bring to many through at once. In the good old days we brought through maybe 3 youngsters at a time they intergrated with senior pros and developed well. We seem to playing youngster for the sake of it. When they may not be even ready/Good enough. I would like to see Stern John to start against qpr and Wotton to replace Gillett. Mcgoldrick can play wide right as he is crap just off the front man. DOnt shove Lallana out there.

 

I don't agree. I think they just need a bit of time that is all, with a few older heads to keep them grounded.

 

I do agree that maybe we should start John though, as with bringing hiom on l,ate in the second half doesn't give him time to step his game up, I feel.

[saintbob40]

Nonsense. We were magnificent against Birmingham (CC) and Derby. We just need to make sure that we have the right youngsters playing, with the right attitude and keep an eye on fatigue or dips in form.

 

John to lead the line, especially away from home, is a good call though and lets get Cork in the team...class act.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

So a one-goal defeat against Blackpoool, to a penalty, and suddenly the 2-goal win against Birmingham doesn't count. The three league defeats have all been by one goal, which does not indicate the team is being outplayed. Fact is the Blackpool game could have gone either way. Lucky we have a head coach to pick the team, because if it was done by a committee of fans who want to change after every game, stability would be the very last thing we would have. Coaches don't just use performance in matches to assess the team, important as that is, they also use performance in training. The starting line up this week will reflect both, which might or might not show a change or two, but don't expect JP to throw out the babies with the bathwater.

Personally, based on Blackpool, I'd drop Killer, but maybe he'll do better in training this week.

 

While i agree with you reagrding not making drastic changes based on one poor game to say the game could have gone either way is going a bit too far. Blackpool could have scored 5 or 6!! 3 goals disallowed and great saves from Davis kept the score down.

Also a bit premature to drop our captain after one poor game seeing as he's only recently returned from 3 years out injured.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

I would keep with the same team and system for the QPR game.

We have had two weeks off to rest and re-group after the Blackpool game.

There seems to be a big call for Stern to lead the line, but I would like to see what this Spurs loanee striker can offer. McGoldrich is the kind of player that splits opinions, a bit like Rasiak. I'm still not convinced about DMG but his goal ratio this season can't be argued with.

Wotton definately adds some steel and experience but I have equally been impressed with Gillett. Half a game each maybe ?

 

Anyone remember the Leeds team of about 10 years ago that was full of youngsters such as Smith,bowyer,Ferdinand ect ? A young team that won the Prem and made the semis of the Champions league. It proves that it can work.

Leeds have never won the premier league. Bowyer and Ferdinand were already first team players at other clubs prior to joining Leeds.

[Saint Martini]

While i agree with you reagrding not making drastic changes based on one poor game to say the game could have gone either way is going a bit too far. Blackpool could have scored 5 or 6!! 3 goals disallowed and great saves from Davis kept the score down.

Also a bit premature to drop our captain after one poor game seeing as he's only recently returned from 3 years out injured.

 

All correctly. And we could have scored a few ourselves as well (in the first half).

[Legod Second Coming]

Football has never been about age in my view.

 

What we did really well in our glory years was that (in his own words) Lawrie brought together roadsweepers and violinists.

 

That's the balance we need to get right.

 

The violinist could be Frank Worthington or Adam Lalana. The roadsweeper could be Ollie Lancashire or Killer.

 

Of course, most warhorses (roadsweepers) tend to be older, but there is no hard and fast rule that says a young team cannot carry all before them with the right mix of skills.

[slickmick]

Leeds have never won the premier league. Bowyer and Ferdinand were already first team players at other clubs prior to joining Leeds.

 

 

I didn't say they weren't. The point I was making was in response to this thread title. Leeds won the league (old 1st division to you)with lots of youngsters in their team.

Can't remember all of their names, but from what I remember they had about 6 players or more under 23.

[Snowballs2]

Careful, you'll be called negative because you're not buying into Rupert's masterplan.

 

Yep I am negative too...I don't buy into it either. But not everyone is easilly fooled.

[saintbob40]

[/b]

 

 

I didn't say they weren't. The point I was making was in response to this thread title. Leeds won the league (old 1st division to you)with lots of youngsters in their team.

Can't remember all of their names, but from what I remember they had about 6 players or more under 23.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jul/17/leedsunited

 

Good article on the not so dirty Leeds team to which you refer.

[derry]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/jul/17/leedsunited

 

Good article on the not so dirty Leeds team to which you refer.

 

 

Sprake, Reaney, Cooper, Bremner, Charlton, Hunter, Lorimer, Clark, Jones, Giles, Gray, Madeley, just to name the key players.

[paulwantsapint]

Problem Saints have is that the experienced pros cant be pressing the kids hard enough in training to regain the shirt

 

It seems imo that JP has looked at the old gits & only seen Kelvin, Killer, Perry, Wotton & Stern as good enough/ better than kids in their positions

[Saint Martini]

Problem Saints have is that the experienced pros cant be pressing the kids hard enough in training to regain the shirt

 

It seems imo that JP has looked at the old gits & only seen Kelvin, Killer, Perry, Wotton & Stern as good enough/ better than kids in their positions

 

Not entirely true, he has said very clearly that those that were available for transfers were only going to be considered for the first team after the transferwindow closed.

[AndyNorthernSaints]

[/b]

 

 

I didn't say they weren't. The point I was making was in response to this thread title. Leeds won the league (old 1st division to you)with lots of youngsters in their team.

Can't remember all of their names, but from what I remember they had about 6 players or more under 23.

 

Lukic

Sterland

Fairclough

Whyte

Dorigo

Strachan

Speed

McAllister

Batty

Chapman

Wallace

 

Sorry not having a go but i don't see too many youngsters in that Leeds side that won the last old division 1 title.