So, why DID Mark Fry prefer Pinnacle over Liebherr?

[saint_mears]

Fry was a total joke

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I think most fans agreed with Fry at the time

But then fans aren't best placed to assess the funding behind potential bidders. Fry was... and fooked it right up.

[rallyboy]

Cortese makes it quite clear on the fans forum that he was surprised and disappointed at their treatment.

While the rest of us are guessing at how Fry performed just looking from the outside, if a key figure inside the deal is still voicing concerns then it's an indicator to me of how the administrator dealt with our club.

No award methinks, just congratulations on getting lucky, or is it accepted in business that you want a lucky administrator over a good one?

[teamsaint]

It was never clear hpow much Pinnacle paid for exclusivity.Fry Pinnacle etc only alluded to a dposit paid,never did they say it was 500k.

I believe it is human nature to dwell if it means that the earnings will be higher if you do so.

Fry got lucky by ML keeping his interest, I doubt there would be many fawning to him on here if he had kept Pinnacle and we had no club now.

Fry had a duty to get the best he could for hiscreditors BUT he nearly ****ed that up. I would love ot know his fees, they would be eye watering. he will be toasting us yet again when his bonusses come in.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that LC paid out 2 or 300K, secured against Dyer/Surman/DNG Transfers. Just a guess mind.

Does anyone know if he ever saw any money back?

[John B]

But then fans aren't best placed to assess the funding behind potential bidders. Fry was... and fooked it right up.

 

So you unlike Mr Fry are an expert in administration then?

 

 

Perhaps Pinnacle were bidding more than the Swiss and if ML had bid more he could have had theclub earlier

[krissyboy31]

So you unlike Mr Fry are an expert in administration then?

 

 

Perhaps Pinnacle were bidding more than the Swiss and if ML had bid more he could have had theclub earlier

 

It's all very well bidding more but if you haven't got it, you haven't got it!! ML bid what he thought the club was worth and TBH probably more than he actually paid when Fry came back cap-in-hand to him. Fry had an unrealistic view of what the business was worth from day one and nearly managed to destroy us because of it.

[John B]

It's all very well bidding more but if you haven't got it, you haven't got it!! ML bid what he thought the club was worth and TBH probably more than he actually paid when Fry came back cap-in-hand to him. Fry had an unrealistic view of what the business was worth from day one and nearly managed to destroy us because of it.

 

If somebody is offering £15m and ML was only offering £12m I would have thought that Fry would have had to go with the highest bid

 

He did not have any loyalty to us fans only to the creditors. So if Markus wanted the club so badly why did he not bid more

 

 

MLT and Crouch also believed the Pinnacle bid was going to happen

[Fitzhugh Fella]

If somebody is offering £15m and ML was only offering £12m I would have thought that Fry would have had to go with the highest bid

 

He did not have any loyalty to us fans only to the creditors. So if Markus wanted the club so badly why did he not bid more

 

 

MLT and Crouch also believed the Pinnacle bid was going to happen

 

Before any bid is accepted though John surely the auctioneer should have proof of funds?

[Channon's Sideburns]

You're assuming that Pinnacle ever really had any backers. Lynam's public statements on here were self-contradictory ... a consortium ,1 wealthy backer, the bloke from the London semi, a consortium again... Try reading his posts again. They're quite amusing in a sort of gallows humour, Walter Mitty, sort of way

 

It seems very likely that, whoever they were, Pinnacle would in effect have been borrowing to buy us, so in effect the club would have been still pretty heavily in debt, as Pinnacle would have had to extract from club income enough 'profit' to cover their debt re-payments. So no mortgage as such , but loan repayments instead, albeit for a lesser amount than the old club debts allowing for the cheap purchase price.

 

K.

 

Plus I guess that there would have been commission paid for brokering the finance.

 

Makes you think doesn't it? ;-)

[trousers]

I think you have answered your own question. The club was literally on the brink of ceasing to exist. The 500k was needed to pay bills and keep it afloat so the administrator did exaclty the right thing to accept the deposit for exclusivity from whomever stumped up the cash first even be it from a Rose West/Gary Glitter consortium.

 

.

 

but wasn't cortese implying/indicating last night that they offered the £500k before pinnacle (on the tuesday?) but that fry went AWOL until the Friday upon which he took pinnacle's money (or should that be leon's money?)

 

just doesn't seem like a level playing field to me.

[WealdSaint]

I'm no financial brain.

 

But I think we had one lucky escape!

 

Fry will have been paid richly for his services. If he earned that money or not I do not know.

 

But, we now have an owner better than anything most of us could have dreamed of a few weeks ago.

[John B]

Before any bid is accepted though John surely the auctioneer should have proof of funds?

 

Oh I agree but who knows what funds they may have had at one time or another

[wightman35]

The comments made by NC last night confirm that all the nightmares of the summer months when daily searches on this site showed little progress in the buyout nearly became reality. We are so fortunate that we ended up with an owner at all and not liquidated.

 

Impressed by all three panel members last night. (Well done Radio Solent too!)

[Dark Munster]

Before any bid is accepted though John surely the auctioneer should have proof of funds?

 

[Dark Munster]

Agreed. Some people seem to have clearly forgotten that the top remit of an administrator is to recover as much of the debt as possible by getting as much as possible for the assets...

 

Well that's true, but he's not going to succeed by turning away a billionaire in favour of some smooth-talking chancers who don't have a pot to pîss in.

 

I think most fans agreed with Fry at the time

 

Oi! We were not privy to the huge gulf in finances of both parties, something that Fry should have been well aware of. We didn't even know who the Swiss "consortium" were!

 

And if Lynham did have some huge backer (who didn't live with his Mum) and who mysteriously disappeared, I'm sure NC wouldn't be as pîssed off as he is.

[Dalek2003]

I remember telling everyone to go for the Swiss as they had the best management structure and being given a right lot of verbal !

[dubai_phil]

Hiya, sorry I'm late. Just in the pre-conference Golf Scramble... Holy cow did my luck turn for a change - one of the 4 no-showed so we could allow any one of us to take an extra shot

Then found out we had a Tour Pro from the Nationwide Tour in Canada in the team! 19 under par. That's the round of a lifetime!

 

Meanwhile if you want a complete off the wall guess at this then go back to my comments about "Dark Forces"

 

Then an off the wall and independent idea from my analysis would be "possibe influence exerted by a secured creditor who loaned the club money after adminsitration was called"

 

Again, whether our dear constant reader chooses to believe it or not, a bid (not ML) was made on the Wednesday before Pinnacle was accepted including the proposal for the cash deposit. As pointed out at the time, legal counsel had an issue with one of the terms of the bid that was being demanded from the selling party and as such the bid was withdrawn.

 

As I said happy to meet FF if possible on Tuesday for that beer (heck maybe NC could get us a couple and get the full picture!) :-)

[Gemmel]

Before any bid is accepted though John surely the auctioneer should have proof of funds?

 

Fry went on record saying they had been through "proof of funds" to his satisfaction (Pinnacle)

 

Don't get me wrong, i am not defending Pinnacle or Fry, but would be interested to know just intense "Proof of funds" actually is.

[alpine_saint]

Before any bid is accepted though John surely the auctioneer should have proof of funds?

 

And as you are fully aware, Dunc, Pinnacle passed that test (somehow).

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Then an off the wall and independent idea from my analysis would be "possibe influence exerted by a secured creditor who loaned the club money after adminsitration was called"

 

So Crouch's loans were secured, which I believe is only right, but should those loans have been allowed to influence the long term future of our club ? I believe not.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

And as you are fully aware, Dunc, Pinnacle passed that test (somehow).

 

Well, I think that is the crux of the matter - how and why and what criteria was used, because at the end of the day Fry gave exclusivity to a bunch of people who simply, at the time, had no funds - their money man had long slinked off into the night, but the facede was maintained.

[gordonToo]

I know nothing but I suspect Leon Crouch's relationship with both Pinnacle and Fry is central to an understanding of why events played out as they did.

[OldNick]

I know nothing but I suspect Leon Crouch's relationship with both Pinnacle and Fry is central to an understanding of why events played out as they did.

and IMHO perhaps which Fry you'd like to choose to pick

[Gemmel]

Well, I think that is the crux of the matter - how and why and what criteria was used, because at the end of the day Fry gave exclusivity to a bunch of people who simply, at the time, had no funds - their money man had long slinked off into the night, but the facede was maintained.

 

Because of the eventual outcome (Securing a billionaire owner) and the time that has now passed, my thirst for "The rights and wrongs", "The who did whats" and general facts for everything that went on, has been quaffed.

 

May be that's me just being lazy or sweeping things under the carpet, (Given the perilous position, it put us in), but having my football and football club being overrun with politics these last few years, this new dawn feels more than just exciting and the lastest custodians of the club are for the time being, "politic free" and making all the right noises. So all I want to do now is sit back and enjoy it again.

 

I'm not sure you will ever get the answers you want, but fully respect your desire to seek them out and if it doesn't sound too much of a contridiction to the above, I will as always, enjoy reading your findings / posts on the subject, but for me the past is now the past and we have a talented squad, not firing on all cylinders to concentrate on.........Happy days again.

[krissyboy31]

Because of the eventual outcome (Securing a billionaire owner) and the time that has now passed, my thirst for "The rights and wrongs", "The who did whats" and general facts for everything that went on, has been quaffed.

 

May be that's me just being lazy or sweeping things under the carpet, (Given the perilous position, it put us in), but having my football and football club being overrun with politics these last few years, this new dawn feels more than just exciting and the lastest custodians of the club are for the time being, "politic free" and making all the right noises. So all I want to do now is sit back and enjoy it again.

 

I'm not sure you will ever get the answers you want, but fully respect your desire to seek them out and if it doesn't sound too much of a contridiction to the above, I will as always, enjoy reading your findings / posts on the subject, but for me the past is now the past and we have a talented squad, not firing on all cylinders to concentrate on.........Happy days again.

 

It seems that NC and ML are still somewhat bitter about the way they were treated by Fry and BT and the fact that their actions cost the new regime 2 months preparation.

[Gemmel]

It seems that NC and ML are still somewhat bitter about the way they were treated by Fry and BT and the fact that their actions cost the new regime 2 months preparation.

 

Indeed, I listened to the Radio Forum and even without saying anything derogatory about them, NC certainly gave that impression, but not sure how relevant that is to my post that you quoted :confused:

[red&white56]

What the hell did Pinnacle think they we're going to do with the club, they had no money and the potential for a huge back lash from the fans when we realised they were a bunch of numpties

 

Sounds a bit like the mess Poopey are in today ! Better them than us !

[Weston Saint]

I think the answer is simple.

 

The Pinnacle offer was the best on the tabe for the creditors. It followed other failed bids (walk aways because of the manner of the Administrator and his demands for a large unrefundable deposit) Other large Administrating companies had turned away from acting before Fry's company appointment. Others saw it as too much of a risk of failure.

 

Fry was a very worried man. Wages needed to be paid, Surman was told he might have to be sold, we were near to extinction and I mean days not weeks. He confided in someone that he was almost certain he would fail. Pinnacle had been around and making noises. Crouch joined with them and produced the money needed (not for the first time since Administration) The Swiss were new and unknowns at that stage and likely offering less to the creditors.

 

In a nut shell, Fry in panicked.

 

I make these assumptions part from what I have been told and part reading between the lines.

 

I could be wrong though.....won't be the first time as some, I am sure, would be quick to point out.

Edited 23 September, 2009 by Weston Saint
spelling

[OldNick]

I think the answer is simple.

 

The Pinnacle offer was the best on the tabe for the creditors. It followed other failed bids (walk aways because of the manner of the Administrator and his demands for a large unrefundable deposit) Other large Administrating companies had turned away from acting before Fry's company appointment. Others saw it as too much of a risk of failure.

 

Fry was a very worried man. Wages needed to be paid, Surman was told he might have to be sold, we were near to extinction and I mean days not weeks. He confided in someone that he was almost certain he would fail. Pinnacle had been around and making noises. Crouch joined with them and produced the money needed (not for the first time since Administration) The Swiss were new and unknowns at that stage and likely offering less to the creditors.

 

In a nut shell, Fry in panicked.

 

I make these assumptions part from what I have been told and part reading between the lines.

 

I could be wrong though.....won't be the first time as some, I am sure, would be quick to point out.

It is all very difficult to pick what happened for sure.Fry initially impressed me but after hearing one or two things and how he seemed to stall then i made my thoughts clear on here that he was not very good in my eyes.

It is now evident that the very professional people who bought the club feel somewhat the same.Add to that the exprience that Phil had and I would say we were lucky that Fry was saved by ML keeping his patience.If I was him Id have walked but it shows his commitment that he stayed the course. If ML's money was there waiting as was said the other night then LC in fact did us a disservice by helping that day.Not his fault of course as he I assume was doing what he thought best for the club.

[gordonToo]

.Not his fault of course as he I assume was doing what he thought best for the club.

 

LC was likely doing what was best for LC!!

[OldNick]

LC was likely doing what was best for LC!!

Lol probably fair comment

[Draino76]

Why? Because he was a gullible ****. Just like I was, MLT and 99% of the people on here. But absolutely no one could possibly have known any different (apart from Fry) until the day Mickey Fialka was revealed.

 

Mark Fry clearly did not do his homework. My 5 yr old boy could have made the decision between Pinnacle and the Swiss.

Edited 23 September, 2009 by Draino76

[alpine_saint]

I think the answer is simple.

 

The Pinnacle offer was the best on the tabe for the creditors. It followed other failed bids (walk aways because of the manner of the Administrator and his demands for a large unrefundable deposit) Other large Administrating companies had turned away from acting before Fry's company appointment. Others saw it as too much of a risk of failure.

 

Fry was a very worried man. Wages needed to be paid, Surman was told he might have to be sold, we were near to extinction and I mean days not weeks. He confided in someone that he was almost certain he would fail. Pinnacle had been around and making noises. Crouch joined with them and produced the money needed (not for the first time since Administration) The Swiss were new and unknowns at that stage and likely offering less to the creditors.

 

In a nut shell, Fry in panicked.

 

I make these assumptions part from what I have been told and part reading between the lines.

 

I could be wrong though.....won't be the first time as some, I am sure, would be quick to point out.

 

Reckon this is pretty close to the mark, myself. Therefore, it would be nice if two things were to happen :

 

1. The continual Crouch detractors shut the f*ck up forever - he did more for this club in its hour of need than Lowe, Wilde, Askham et al ever did.

 

2. The continual bleating about the wasted "Pinnacle" time were to stop. Its water under the bridge, and we should focus on the fact that at least we still have the club and at worst progress has only been put back for one season.

[Charlie Wayman]

Typical of this forum we're off into navel gazing once again. The future is now, sod the past let's just get behind the great guys who ended our misery and took a flyer with their cheque books.

[OldNick]

Typical of this forum we're off into navel gazing once again. The future is now, sod the past let's just get behind the great guys who ended our misery and took a flyer with their cheque books.

that from the person who continually knocks the manager and team. Lol

[derry]

I think the answer is simple.

 

The Pinnacle offer was the best on the tabe for the creditors. It followed other failed bids (walk aways because of the manner of the Administrator and his demands for a large unrefundable deposit) Other large Administrating companies had turned away from acting before Fry's company appointment. Others saw it as too much of a risk of failure.

 

Fry was a very worried man. Wages needed to be paid, Surman was told he might have to be sold, we were near to extinction and I mean days not weeks. He confided in someone that he was almost certain he would fail. Pinnacle had been around and making noises. Crouch joined with them and produced the money needed (not for the first time since Administration) The Swiss were new and unknowns at that stage and likely offering less to the creditors.

 

In a nut shell, Fry in panicked.

 

I make these assumptions part from what I have been told and part reading between the lines.

 

I could be wrong though.....won't be the first time as some, I am sure, would be quick to point out.

 

While this was going on Mike Osman told me he understood the Swiss had no problems on the money front. At the same time he expressed massive doubts that Pinnacle could raise the funds. Bearing in mind his connection with MLT that was pretty radical.

[sussexsaint]

What pi**es me off isTL still posts on here occasionally yet it is down to him that we had a slow start and a poor pre season and Nearly, oh so very nearly lost Kelvin. When he knew th emoney had gone and his bid was dead he should have held his hands up and said so. I have no doubt he had good intentions and may have had what he though was enough money initially but it turned into farce pretty quickly and went on far too long.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

What pi**es me off isTL still posts on here occasionally

I have no doubt he had good intentions and may have had what he though was enough money initially.

 

I suggested in a different thread, as he is a member of the forum, that questions could be directed at him on here.

When he posted in relation to a charity golf day, where both he and MLT would be present, he suggested you could ask, within reason, certain questions.

 

There may be a reason why certain questions can not be answered on a public forum but can not see why answers in relation to timelines etc.. could not be and as to how informed MLT was of events.

 

sussex, clearly you feel quite strongly about it so why not create a thread of your own directed at TL inviting him to answer some of the many questions posters may have.

[Channon's Sideburns]

I suggested in a different thread, as he is a member of the forum, that questions could be directed at him on here.

When he posted in relation to a charity golf day, where both he and MLT would be present, he suggested you could ask, within reason, certain questions.

 

There may be a reason why certain questions can not be answered on a public forum but can not see why answers in relation to timelines etc.. could not be and as to how informed MLT was of events.

 

sussex, clearly you feel quite strongly about it so why not create a thread of your own directed at TL inviting him to answer some of the many questions posters may have.

 

I'm sure he'd answer them, after all he did during their (Pinnacle's) progress didn't he?

 

Seeing as he and MLT seem to still get on (just an assumption from his posts) perhaps it was just that the backers disappeared....

 

But, regardless of the situation we now find ourselves in, we need an explanation for this...

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4461152.Saints_bid_leader_Tony_Lynam_is_pleased_Fialka_has_made_himself_known/

[lancelot link]

I work for him and I'm quite sure he'd answer you

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I work for him and I'm quite sure he'd answer you

 

Would he be prepared to do a Q&A on here one evening ?

[landford.saint]

Its probably already been stated on here:-

As regards to losing Kelvin, from what I understand from a long term West Ham fan, who seems to know what is going on there before the press does. Kelvin's had a contract sorted and a Club owned house already in place for him and his family to settle up there, but WH knew his heart was at SFC . They agreed that if SFC got dragged out of the fire and they still wanted him, they would (and graciously did) not keep him to any agreements he had made with them. There are still some good people in sport.

Edited 24 September, 2009 by landford.saint
Grammer

[Tony Lynam]

I will answer any question that I can legally answer if there is something on your mind. I have absolutely no reason on earth not to answer what can be - but please do bear in mind 2 things. NDAs were signed with the creditors and administrators, and personal third party confidentiality agreements were in place for everyone else involved - this is not any excuse, but there are some things I simply cannot talk about. I'm sure you'll understand that such agreements need to be respected. Regards. Tony

[OldNick]

I will answer any question that I can legally answer if there is something on your mind. I have absolutely no reason on earth not to answer what can be - but please do bear in mind 2 things. NDAs were signed with the creditors and administrators, and personal third party confidentiality agreements were in place for everyone else involved - this is not any excuse, but there are some things I simply cannot talk about. I'm sure you'll understand that such agreements need to be respected. Regards. Tony

what were the small legal formalities that held things up?

When did you realise that your people never had anywhere enough money to buy the club?

[SnailOB]

I will answer any question that I can legally answer if there is something on your mind. I have absolutely no reason on earth not to answer what can be - but please do bear in mind 2 things. NDAs were signed with the creditors and administrators, and personal third party confidentiality agreements were in place for everyone else involved - this is not any excuse, but there are some things I simply cannot talk about. I'm sure you'll understand that such agreements need to be respected. Regards. Tony

 

When the period of exclusivity was granted was there really any chance that the funds were in place or of Pinnacle completing a deal. And how was exclusivity granted (plenty rumours about when / where money may have come from but very little fact)

[Tony Lynam]

Nick

 

I am on my way out - but if you want to compile a list of all questions that you/people want to know, and send them to me or email me, I will sit down and answer them all at once. I am not a regular user of this forum and to be honest I don't often get too much free time so it would be easier to address them in one hit. Or email me a time and I'll make myself available for a chat.

 

Quickly to your question. There were a number of legalities. In fact, from the top of my head I recall the figure of 22 seperate "issues" being identified with contracts - and the small matter of the football league. This I will answer in full.

 

As regards money, if the original set him had remained then there was ample funds. The 'group' changed a number of times, although there were a couple of main people who remained throughout. We became very concerned about funds very late in the day when things seemed to be dragging on - and within 2 days, Matt and I released a statement publicly stepping down from the deal. This was for 2 reasons. Firstly, we knew about Mr Leibherrs reemergance, and another Group - in fact, we knew about them all along as we actually spoke to both groups during the deal. Secondly, in taking this step, it did not prevent our people completing, but it brought about a new sense of urgency. One thought though - very shortly after our client was granted exclusivety, I personally had a phone call from one of the 2 groups mentioned. I was asked whether our client would 'flip' the contract (i.e. sell it for a quick turn)....... I obviously put the question to our client and was told a very firm no. Clearly at that point and for some weeks afterwards myself and colleagues had absolute confidence in their desire to buy the club and trully believed that they would. The rest is history - I lost a load of time and money, but thats business sometimes. I've met some of the new regime since their takeover and passed on several lucrative contracts that myself and colleagues had secured - after all, there is no use leaving them to waste and the new owner and his team were grateful.

 

I hope that answers your question.

 

Regards

Tony

[Tony Lynam]

Oh, just one point. At no point did I ever have the impression that Mark Fry preferred our clients bid - if anyone has dealt with administrators before, you'll know its like doing battle with an enemy. On a professional level, Mark was very firm, very demanding but straight talking.

[bungle]

Agreed. Some people seem to have clearly forgotten that the top remit of an administrator is to recover as much of the debt as possible by getting as much as possible for the assets...

 

You seemed pretty good at forgetting that while we were in administration.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I am on my way out - but if you want to compile a list of all questions that you/people want to know, and send them to me or email me, I will sit down and answer them all at once.

 

I would suggest the mods create some kind of format for this to ensure posters do not miss the opportunity or their questions unanswered/overlooked, if left on this thread it could run and run when/if another question springs to mind, which would be unfair on both.

[jam]

I work for him and I'm quite sure he'd answer you

 

You work for Tony Lynham?