Saganowski

[derry]

i think it is unfair on Lambert to say our attack is toothless. He is Beattie with a better footballing brain IMO. he needs somebody alongside him with a sharp brain and eye for goal.

 

The attack isn't just the two strikers but we don't seem to know that. Two wide men would allow time for the two central midfielders to get up in support. I wouldn't criticise the two strikers as they have a thankless task and need support and service.

 

The two strikers are just feeding off scraps and we are toothless, 8 games, 7 goals, three penalties, one header from a corner and a fullback from a knockdown. The other two goals, Paterson in the first game and Lallana's first league goal in a year.

[derry]

I think Chez has got a point, and so have you. Players must be played in the position they are meant for. I think it is possible to make one exception, but only one, which would be Lallana on the right. Then there are the oval pegs Chez is talking about and the ones I suspect are not good enough, like Mellis and Thomson, at least for now. Mills and Holmes are left footed and used to play on LM. They haven't got genuine pace, but play them until we have somebody who has. What McLaggon can do we will have to wait and see when he is fit.

 

We're not lacking only width, but pace as well. The only genuine speedster around the first team is Waigo.

 

Lallana shouldn't play as a partner to Lambert. He is not direct enough. And he doesn't belong in the centre of a four man midfield. In the hole behind the striker in a three man midfield is a different option. But even there we need pace. Is the lack of that worse than lack of width?

 

This is historical and goes back some time. I would go so far as to say we shouldn't sign anyone who doesn't have pace. For me it is Pace Then Quality. One without the other is useless leading in our case to a lot of reasonable players lacking pace.

[Arizona]

I think Theo and Pahars are the only players we've had with pace AND quality in the last decade. The rest have been either one, the other or neither.

 

Pace is important, but I've seen performances from some quick players, like Dyer, BWP and Kenton, which were just awful. Personally I'd play Waigo out wide and try and get some decent service into Saga and Lambert. Up front Papa could run like Usain Bolt, but if we've still got the same old problem in midfield there's only so much he can do.

[derry]

I've always felt that Dyer could have been potent but he always made the mistake of running with the ball close, taking lots of touches and trying to trick the defender, more often than not being stopped in his tracks. He consequentley didn't use his pace, he also tended to be narrow.

 

If he had taken the ball close to the defender and knocked it ten yds down the touchline, then used his pace and knocked it towards the corner and ran the covering defender he may well have been more effective and dragged the central defenders out of the middle.

 

It seemed that he had no coaching in how best to use his pace running without the ball close. Adding that to the close control could have made him a big threat. I would certainly take him on our right side.

Edited 23 September, 2009 by derry

[Chez]

Up front Papa could run like Usain Bolt, but if we've still got the same old problem in midfield there's only so much he can do.

 

he can get on the end of flick ons, run the channels, turn defences, latch onto through balls...in fact all the things Saga is not doing or offering. Saga needs chances on a plate. Until we start delivering that perhaps we need to pick a striker, Waigo, that will create different opportunities.

[Thedelldays]

he can get on the end of flick ons, run the channels, turn defences, latch onto through balls...in fact all the things Saga is not doing or offering. Saga needs chances on a plate. Until we start delivering that perhaps we need to pick a striker, Waigo, that will create different opportunities.

indeed..with waigo up front..after about 2 forward runs the opposition defence will sit deeper...thus (for once) giving up space in the middle...

[derry]

indeed..with waigo up front..after about 2 forward runs the opposition defence will sit deeper...thus (for once) giving up space in the middle...

 

Or catch him offside. We need to get down the touchlines. Sticking to a narrow formation forces aimless balls, we need to get some space between the back four which will allow runs through the channels, without width it just can't happen.

[Master Bates]

I think Theo and Pahars are the only players we've had with pace AND quality in the last decade.

 

Master Bates likes this

[Arizona]

he can get on the end of flick ons, run the channels, turn defences, latch onto through balls...in fact all the things Saga is not doing or offering. Saga needs chances on a plate. Until we start delivering that perhaps we need to pick a striker, Waigo, that will create different opportunities.

 

Maybe so, but I'd still prefer to use him as a wide player to get the best out of himself, Lambert AND Saga.

 

Would be nice to have some genuine width for the first time in about 3 years. I think if we just use Lambert to flick the ball on for Papa, we will be very one dimensional and just end up playing hoofball. All the oppositon would need to do is sit deep and put a big guy on Lambert and we're fresh out of ideas.

[Thedelldays]

Maybe so, but I'd still prefer to use him as a wide player to get the best out of himself, Lambert AND Saga.

 

Would be nice to have some genuine width for the first time in about 3 years. I think if we just use Lambert to flick the ball on for Papa, we will be very one dimensional and just end up playing hoofball. All the oppositon would need to do is sit deep and put a big guy on Lambert and we're fresh out of ideas.

 

why would you prefer to use him as a wide player..?

 

can he cross, does he has "wide player" positional sense..?

[Thedelldays]

Or catch him offside. We need to get down the touchlines. Sticking to a narrow formation forces aimless balls, we need to get some space between the back four which will allow runs through the channels, without width it just can't happen.

riiiight, so because he MAY get caught off side lets not bother..

 

okaaaaay then

[derry]

riiiight, so because he MAY get caught off side lets not bother..

 

okaaaaay then

 

After writing the following I read your post on the Papa injury thread. Quite how you can revert to sarcasm about the opinions of people that have actually seen him play when all you know is how to spell his name is stupidity.

 

The width is paramount, a smart last defender will just step up, the attacker will have to bend his runs or start in his own half not to be offside. In any event if we stay narrow without pace down the flanks there won't be anywhere for him to run.

 

On Saturday in the few minutes he was on, he was caught offside on nearly every occasion he was put through, wide or central but he does have pace and he has more chance of staying onside wide. He had a lot more room as Yeovil were two goals down and leaving space at the back.

 

At 0-0 he may well find the clattering he would get from centre backs difficult with the ball being belted up to him and Lambert. Pardew is obviously not happy about him at the moment or he would be playing somewhere, together with the fact he didn't perform particularly well before he was clattered against Reading reserves.

Edited 24 September, 2009 by derry

[Arizona]

why would you prefer to use him as a wide player..?

 

can he cross, does he has "wide player" positional sense..?

 

I just told you. To give us some pace out wide and hopefully offer us some more natural width than James and Lallana, neither of whom look entirely comfortable with their roles.

 

I have been lead to believe that he can play wide right. I haven't seen it myself, but if he has in the past it is well worth a try IMO.

[Thedelldays]

I just told you. To give us some pace out wide and hopefully offer us some more natural width than James and Lallana, neither of whom look entirely comfortable with their roles.

 

I have been lead to believe that he can play wide right. I haven't seen it myself, but if he has in the past it is well worth a try IMO.

he may drift in more tham lallana...he may have clogs on his feet when it comes to crossing..?

 

we simply do not know

[Arizona]

he may drift in more tham lallana...he may have clogs on his feet when it comes to crossing..?

 

we simply do not know

 

Waigo - Might not work

 

James and Lallana - Definitely not working

 

I know what I'd go with.

[Thedelldays]

Waigo - Might not work

 

James and Lallana - Definitely not working

 

I know what I'd go with.

well....we shall see...if he goes upfront in his next appearance..I think that is where he will spend most of his time for us

[Windmill Arm 2]

Saga is a striker, his job is to score goals, he has not scored many recently and despite defending him for ages i reckon i'd be happy to see him go. I love him to prove me wrong though.

[St Will]

Saga is a striker, his job is to score goals, he has not scored many recently and despite defending him for ages i reckon i'd be happy to see him go. I love him to prove me wrong though.

 

I agree. I'm starting to think he's past his best, or in a rut here at Saints....it'd probably be best for both parties if he moved on. He's given us some good moments, but the past is the past.....a fresh start maybe required. However, he's a streaky kind of player - if he scores one off his backside, he might go on and score a few, which might make things seem different.

[Clifford Nelson]

We have two fit, left footed wide players in the squad with Fish and Holmes. Let's play them and find out who is the preferable left footed winger. It's none of the others, and that includes Mellis who's purpose I have failed to spot so far.

 

On the right we have no fit wide players with pace in the club. Waigo is one possibility, but we haven't seen him there yet. In the meantime I would so much prefer Lallana to play on the right to at least allow one winger on the pitch. Lallana and James are not the answers to our lack of width.

[Chez]

Or catch him offside. We need to get down the touchlines. Sticking to a narrow formation forces aimless balls, we need to get some space between the back four which will allow runs through the channels, without width it just can't happen.

 

you are obsessed by width. Chelsea don't play with width or Arsenal and they seem to do quite well. The game is not ALL about width. Even Barca, who obviously have wingers, tend to play narrow and Messi is foreever coming in off the wing as Ronaldinho did before him fromt he pther side.

[Chez]

Waigo - Might not work

 

James and Lallana - Definitely not working

 

I know what I'd go with.

by the same account:

Lambert and Saga - not working

Lambert and Waigo - might work

[Chez]

We have two fit, left footed wide players in the squad with Fish and Holmes. Let's play them and find out who is the preferable left footed winger. It's none of the others, and that includes Mellis who's purpose I have failed to spot so far.

 

On the right we have no fit wide players with pace in the club. Waigo is one possibility, but we haven't seen him there yet. In the meantime I would so much prefer Lallana to play on the right to at least allow one winger on the pitch. Lallana and James are not the answers to our lack of width.

 

I'd like to see Mills in the side myself. Great left foot, lots of energy and he looks like the sort of player that is going to get better and better rather than already reached his potential. He needs a long run of games IMO. I'm not a fan of Harding so would be happy to see him play at left back, but maybe when Thomas returns so we still have that height advantage that we have now.

[Arizona]

by the same account:

Lambert and Saga - not working

Lambert and Waigo - might work

 

If there is a power cut, do you replace the electrical appliances in your house?

[derry]

you are obsessed by width. Chelsea don't play with width or Arsenal and they seem to do quite well. The game is not ALL about width. Even Barca, who obviously have wingers, tend to play narrow and Messi is foreever coming in off the wing as Ronaldinho did before him fromt he pther side.

 

Of course they do, it's just that they don't use orthodox wingers they interchange and usually two or three players play out on the touchlines. No decent team plays narrow they all exploit width. As soon as one comes inside another goes down the touchline.

 

Lack of width is a fundamental weakness with us and our paltry three goals from play in eight games is in the main down to that. Our players are pretty poor and I wouldn't expect them to interchange in the same way but we would improve if the wide midfielders played wide.

[Scummer]

I agree with the people who say give Papa a go out wide. We desperately need some pace on the wings. Lambert and Saga are both goalscorers, if we start getting decent balls into them they will convert the chances.

[eurosaint]

I'd like to see Mills in the side myself. Great left foot, lots of energy and he looks like the sort of player that is going to get better and better rather than already reached his potential. He needs a long run of games IMO. I'm not a fan of Harding so would be happy to see him play at left back, but maybe when Thomas returns so we still have that height advantage that we have now.

 

Is that the Harding who won player of the month last month ??

[Leicestersaint]

you are obsessed by width. Chelsea don't play with width or Arsenal and they seem to do quite well. The game is not ALL about width. Even Barca, who obviously have wingers, tend to play narrow and Messi is foreever coming in off the wing as Ronaldinho did before him fromt he pther side.

 

Well we don't seem to have ANY width at the moment and the service to the front men is generally hopeless. We need some pace and some width.

[Clifford Nelson]

I'd like to see Mills in the side myself. Great left foot, lots of energy and he looks like the sort of player that is going to get better and better rather than already reached his potential. He needs a long run of games IMO. I'm not a fan of Harding so would be happy to see him play at left back, but maybe when Thomas returns so we still have that height advantage that we have now.

 

I like Harding and think that he is the player of the season so far, so I can't agree with you there. However, if we are looking at a 4-3-3 formation where most of the width and crossing is to come from the fullbacks, then I'll give it a second thought.

 

I've got no view on Holmes so far, I never saw him last year. Whoever can knock the ball towards the touchline and provide a reasonable cross is OK as far as I'm concerned. I have seen Mellis, though, and I am decidedly underwhelmed.

 

It looks strange to me to persevere with Lallana on the left with so much available alternatives. On the right there is only Papa Waigo who nobody has ever seen play wide. Hmmm...

[Clifford Nelson]

Of course they do, it's just that they don't use orthodox wingers they interchange and usually two or three players play out on the touchlines. No decent team plays narrow they all exploit width. As soon as one comes inside another goes down the touchline.

 

Lack of width is a fundamental weakness with us and our paltry three goals from play in eight games is in the main down to that. Our players are pretty poor and I wouldn't expect them to interchange in the same way but we would improve if the wide midfielders played wide.

 

I think you are touching on something I argued earlier. With great players they should be able to interchange and play wide as well as arriving late in the box, but we are not on that planet. Our players can become robotic is shoehorned into a rigid 4-4-2. We desperately need width, but we also need late runs into the box, pace to rip the CBs apart, killerballs, etc. Wingers can't provide it all. Let's not forget that we have signed a midfielder with a habit of scoring with regularity. Let Hammond have his way.

[derry]

I think you are touching on something I argued earlier. With great players they should be able to interchange and play wide as well as arriving late in the box, but we are not on that planet. Our players can become robotic is shoehorned into a rigid 4-4-2. We desperately need width, but we also need late runs into the box, pace to rip the CBs apart, killerballs, etc. Wingers can't provide it all. Let's not forget that we have signed a midfielder with a habit of scoring with regularity. Let Hammond have his way.

 

At least somebody sees the problem. We can't play an advanced interchanging system wide as the players aren't up to it. Holmes will play wide and I have seen him play, he works hard wide and gets to the byeline and hangs up crosses on the back post.

 

I would like to see Gillett given a go wide right, he is busy, right sided and can cross and would play wide as he did well in the Stoke friendly last year.

 

Unless we play down the touchlines after the central midfielders spread the play they don't have time to make the runs into the box. At the moment they can't get up to support the strikers because we are so narrow and the shallow balls up to the strikers are leaving them no time to get forward.

 

Because we are so narrow the central midfielders pass it sideways and more often than not it ends up going back to the back four and then the goalkeeper to be then hit long.

 

All this could be alleviated with two wide players, the blindside player can come in on the 45 and attack the back post and the two central midfielders can make runs and support the strikers who also can now pull away and take the defenders away to make space for the runners then peel off back into the box. The movement then created causes the best defences problems.

[Chez]

Of course they do, it's just that they don't use orthodox wingers they interchange and usually two or three players play out on the touchlines. No decent team plays narrow they all exploit width. As soon as one comes inside another goes down the touchline.

 

 

no they don't. Chelsea and Arsenal play through the middle all day long. However they have the class in the middle to do that. You might be right about our problems, but you're wrong to say that width is everything.

[Chez]

Is that the Harding who won player of the month last month ??

 

he didn't get my vote. I'm not saying he is ****, I'm just not a fan.

[Chez]

Well we don't seem to have ANY width at the moment and the service to the front men is generally hopeless. We need some pace and some width.

 

I could not agree more.

[hypochondriac]

he didn't get my vote. I'm not saying he is ****, I'm just not a fan.

 

Any reason why?

[Chez]

At least somebody sees the problem. We can't play an advanced interchanging system wide as the players aren't up to it. Holmes will play wide and I have seen him play, he works hard wide and gets to the byeline and hangs up crosses on the back post.

 

I would like to see Gillett given a go wide right, he is busy, right sided and can cross and would play wide as he did well in the Stoke friendly last year.

 

sorry to keep disagreeing with you Derry, nothing personal, but I am starting to doubt your ability to read a player if you think Gillett is the answer to our wide problems. He has no pace, no trick and no idea how to play there. Holmes certainly gets to the byeline, but I don't recall him ever working hard and tracking back last season. In his defence maybe he was not asked to, but I fear that in a 4-4-2 he will not be this up and down wide man that you imagine.

[Chez]

Any reason why?

for starters he is slow. I like fullbacks to be pacey otherwise the are always susceptical to a pacey winger. He's clumsy, his passing leaves a lot to be desired and thats about it. I like his comittment, he gets stuck in and he's genuine. I'm just not convinced at this point, certainly not to the degree others are on here. Its early days and I'm more than happy to jugde him in another ten games.

[Arizona]

Speak for yourself Chez. Harding is the only wide player in the current team I can actually claim to be happy with.

[SFKA South Woodford]

I agree with the people who say give Papa a go out wide. We desperately need some pace on the wings. Lambert and Saga are both goalscorers, if we start getting decent balls into them they will convert the chances.

 

In my opinion playing Waigo out wide would be a waste, especially at the moment.

 

The centre backs in most teams, especially those in our division are slower and therefore more vunerable to pace than fullbacks, so play Waigo where he can be most dangerous, i.e from Lamberts flicks and Lallana or Schneiderlins through balls.

 

Yes we need pace out wide but really need dedicated wingers with it, who can also deliver a decent cross and have the trickery to beat their opposite number and the fullback.

 

Playing Waigo out wide would not only be a waste of his attacking threat, but given that we already manage to beat the full back on occasion, only for Saga and Lambert not to have the pace to get in the box to profit from it. So Waigo may do all the hard work of getting into position to cross only to find that he then has to check for Saga and Lambert to catch up.

 

Waigo has to play down the centre to create more space for Lambert, once he's free of having the centre backs playing right on top of him all game, we'll start to see Lambert striking more of the type of goals he became known for last season.

[Chez]

Speak for yourself Chez. Harding is the only wide player in the current team I can actually claim to be happy with.

 

I've never claimed to speak for anyone but myself, in fact I realise that most fans like Harding. I'm just not convinced, but maybe after being spoilt by Bridge and Bale I've set my sights too high. I like Mills a lot and have been pushing his claims for a long time.

 

I actually quite like Thomas at right back. He is a very similar player to Harding but better in the air.

[jam]

I've never claimed to speak for anyone but myself, in fact I realise that most fans like Harding. I'm just not convinced, but maybe after being spoilt by Bridge and Bale I've set my sights too high. I like Mills a lot and have been pushing his claims for a long time.

 

I actually quite like Thomas at right back. He is a very similar player to Harding but better in the air.

 

I think that with Bridge and Bale, we had left backs who looked to bomb forward whenever they had the chance. From what I've seen we're just not set up to allow Harding to do that or use him if he gets into space (in contrast to the Murty and even Thomas on the right).

[up and away]

In my opinion playing Waigo out wide would be a waste, especially at the moment.

 

The centre backs in most teams, especially those in our division are slower and therefore more vunerable to pace than fullbacks, so play Waigo where he can be most dangerous, i.e from Lamberts flicks and Lallana or Schneiderlins through balls.

 

Yes we need pace out wide but really need dedicated wingers with it, who can also deliver a decent cross and have the trickery to beat their opposite number and the fullback.

 

Playing Waigo out wide would not only be a waste of his attacking threat, but given that we already manage to beat the full back on occasion, only for Saga and Lambert not to have the pace to get in the box to profit from it. So Waigo may do all the hard work of getting into position to cross only to find that he then has to check for Saga and Lambert to catch up.

 

Waigo has to play down the centre to create more space for Lambert, once he's free of having the centre backs playing right on top of him all game, we'll start to see Lambert striking more of the type of goals he became known for last season.

 

I would agree with that. You don't break up the centre halves with pace down the wing, down the middle more than possible with pace. Waigo does not have to get on the end of many, just sufficient to cause panic and this should create space not only for Lambert. The other point is there has to be a certain amount of end product from the wing for it to have any effect.

 

I get the feeling Saga and Lambert will start together, with Saga keeping his position if he merits it.

[derry]

no they don't. Chelsea and Arsenal play through the middle all day long. However they have the class in the middle to do that. You might be right about our problems, but you're wrong to say that width is everything.

 

sorry to keep disagreeing with you Derry, nothing personal, but I am starting to doubt your ability to read a player if you think Gillett is the answer to our wide problems. He has no pace, no trick and no idea how to play there. Holmes certainly gets to the byeline, but I don't recall him ever working hard and tracking back last season. In his defence maybe he was not asked to, but I fear that in a 4-4-2 he will not be this up and down wide man that you imagine.

 

I didn't say width is everything, what I did say is that lack of it is stopping us scoring goals from play.

 

Gillett isn't the answer to the right wide problem, neither are Lallana, Mellis and James. In the interim I think he might possibly make a better fist of it than the other three. He certainly wouldn't be any worse.

 

Another way may be to play Holmes on the right with Mills left. Saganowski played there for Poland and might be worth a try.

 

I'm suggesting alternatives pending a proper solution which unless N'diaye is the answer isn't available within the present staff.

 

I'm looking for alternatives to the present dilemma not presenting it as a solution.

[OldNick]

for all the Saga fans , you can go and stick him up your .......

Im a bit tetchy by the way

[Chez]

Speak for yourself Chez. Harding is the only wide player in the current team I can actually claim to be happy with.

 

as I said, his lack of pace is a problem for me and was exposed last night. Lets hope there aren't too many Andy Williams out there.