9/11 - 102 Minutes which changed America

[Johnny Bognor]

Let's just say you're right about the flash, and I can't possibly claim to know what caused it. How do you explain the appendage on the fuselage?

 

 

Go through my timelines and in their videos, flashes appear before and/or after impact depending on the point being made.

 

As for the appendage, this seems plausible:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzolp-AmCjg&feature=related

 

 

This is interesting:

 

It just goes to show how evidence can be faked. In my opinion, anyone faking videos to make some nutjob case is trampling on the graves of those who perished.

Edited 8 September, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[Ponty]

Well, I'd trust a pilot with 20 years' service over you, no offence intended (genuinely) on planes, and there've been plenty of accounts from other experts in the fields I mentioned over the years.

 

I'm not giving an opinion on the likelihood of it being a government cover up but, let's face it, it's not as though there are no precedents for such a thing.

[Ponty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzolp-AmCjg&feature=related

 

Even with an open mind I can't see what that video is supposed to prove or disprove.

[Thedelldays]

 

I'm not giving an opinion on the likelihood of it being a government cover up but, let's face it, it's not as though there are no precedents for such a thing.

on this scale..or even remotely close..?

 

one min bushes lot are a bunch of clueless clowns.... then they mastermind and carry out the biggest single (what looks like) terrorist plot and convince most of the world..

 

cant quite see it happening really

[.comsaint]

lol @ "The Pod" theory...

 

ffs

[Ponty]

If I was told it was all a cover up, I wouldn't be surprised if Bush and his administration had nothing to do with it and no knowledge of it whatsoever.

[aintforever]

The military aircraft theory is clearly nonsense. If you were going to commit mass murder in such a way, live on TV across the World and in full view of thousands of people in New York, you would at least do it in the same type of plane.

 

The idea that George Bush would just send in a military plane to crash into the world trade centre and just hope that no one would get a decent enough photo or video of it is just too bizarre to even consider.

[.comsaint]

The military aircraft theory is clearly nonsense. If you were going to commit mass murder in such a way, live on TV across the World and in full view of thousands of people in New York, you would at least do it in the same type of plane.

 

The idea that George Bush would just send in a military plane to crash into the world trade centre and just hope that no one would get a decent enough photo or video of it is just too bizarre to even consider.

 

lol - exactly.

[Johnny Bognor]

Well, I'd trust a pilot with 20 years' service over you, no offence intended (genuinely) on planes,

 

So you know for a fact that he is an airline pilot and you know for a fact that he has 20 years experience? Do you know what planes he flew in his distinguished career?

 

As it happens, he is a member of Uncle Sam's Christian Patriots,

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=87696

 

So he has no commercial gain (from selling his books) or is not seriously politically motivated in his anti-Israeli views, just your average unbiased but experienced pilot who also happens to be a nutjob.

 

I did find this little nugget:

Glen(n) Stanish(G* Stanish and other mispellings attempted) is not listed in the FAA airmans database - so as far as the FAA is concerned, there is no such airman

 

 

 

So go ahead, you can believe what you like. Here, you can buy his book if you like:

http://www.bollyn.com/bookstore

Edited 8 September, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[LVSaint]

on this scale..or even remotely close..?

 

one min bushes lot are a bunch of clueless clowns.... then they mastermind and carry out the biggest single (what looks like) terrorist plot and convince most of the world..

 

cant quite see it happening really

 

This is the biggest glaring oversight any of the 'truthers' can not explain. For an operation of this magnitude, the ones responsible are going to have to be very clever and trust the thousands of co-conspirators needed to make this all happen, to not spills the beans.

 

The Shrub Administration couldn't have organized a **** up in a brewery however much they'd have liked to have been responsible for this.

[hamster]

Something has been on my mind for many years now. This may sound stupid, it may have even been mentioned before. 9/11 =911 the U.S. emergency telephone number.

 

 

Tomorrow is 9/9/9.

 

I would not be totally surprised for there to be an attack on Brits tomorrow.

 

I hope my concerns are totally misplaced.

 

Bloody Hell ESB, I wish I had not read that post. I worked in airport security at the time of the twin towers incident, everything changed that day. Strangely, I was off on that Tuesday as I was collecting my Grand daughter from the Princess Anne hospital (it's her birthday today). As Mrs h was helping our daughter to pack her bits, I sat in the guests lounge with my mouth open watching the reports as they came in. I was on my own and quite lterally could not move.

 

After what seemed like ages, I stood up and walking like a zombie, went and told the girls that they had to come and see what was happening. As we went I actually remember feeling faint and having to sit down. I don't remember much else about the day, and you know how sometimes you arrive somewhere after a drive and don't remember the journey? Well, I can't rmemember bringing my first Granddaughter home.

 

I have never watched any footage since, never read any reports and I just got on with my life. actually, this thread is the first time I have ever read about the conspiracy theories.

 

7 years on (April 2008), I went to New York with my sister to visit my Nephew who lives in New Jersey. Whilst planning the trip, discussing our itineray, WTC was suggested. I was adamant that I really did not want to go there, I really didn't think it healthy to stand and look at a graveyard (sorry to put it like that). Ironically (I expect to be corrected on my mis-use of the word), my sister didn't want to go to the Dakota Building (top of my list) so I nearly didn't get to say goodbye to one of my all time heroes.

 

With Phil as our guide we boarded the train from NJ to NY, a couple of stops along and out we jump, **** me, we were at the World Trade Centre!!!!! I can't put it into words, but I had the exact same feeling as I had had 7 years earlier and felt very faint, we were at the WTC station. It was not qute the exact location, but as we walked through, we could see the construction site that I so wanted to avoid visiting. We left the station and were drawn to the little church (St Paul's) across the road. A very surreal experience I can assure you.

 

Nealrly finished, I promise.

 

A couple of days later and making an early start, Mrs h and I went out for the day on our own (Sunday I think), previous route, PATH train from Exchange Place to WTC, I was prepered for it this time, or so I thought. Lo and behold as we are walking I notice that we are taking a diversion! We were walking right through part of the brand new station concourse, I was walking through the graveyard that I so wanted to avoid even looking at prior to our visit. It felt a stough I had been drawn there, very spooky and the weird thing is that I noticed something tha I had never noticed before, and that was the smell of fresh concrete, I can smell it now as I write this, I really can.

 

I honestly and ashamedly thought that it would spoil our trip, but it actually made it qute special, that and sitting in Strawberry fields and singing 'Yesterday' to myself.

 

I do hope you are wrong ESB, I really do. I can't begin to imagine what the aftermath would be.

 

Ends

[Gemmel]

I had a meeting on 7 / 7 just off Liverpool street that morning. I had a Treo (Pre Blackberry) and although i couldn't ever say it would have been the tube i was on, it would have been the right sort of time. Email in the morning cancelling the meeting, sometimr before Waterloo.......Will never have a bad word said about Accenture again :smt118

[Gemmel]

So you know for a fact that he is an airline pilot and you know for a fact that he has 20 years experience? Do you know what planes he flew in his distinguished career?

 

As it happens, he is a member of Uncle Sam's Christian Patriots,

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=87696

 

So he has no commercial gain (from selling his books) or is not seriously politically motivated in his anti-Israeli views, just your average unbiased but experienced pilot who also happens to be a nutjob.

 

I did find this little nugget:

Glen(n) Stanish(G* Stanish and other mispellings attempted) is not listed in the FAA airmans database - so as far as the FAA is concerned, there is no such airman

 

 

 

So go ahead, you can believe what you like. Here, you can buy his book if you like:

http://www.bollyn.com/bookstore

 

 

Over to you ponty.......

[Deanovski]

My gf is from new york and she wants to watch this but channel 4 player wont let her(ironic), ive looked and cant find another site with it on does any one know any?

[Nineteen Canteen]

Bloody Hell ESB, I wish I had not read that post. I worked in airport security at the time of the twin towers incident, everything changed that day. Strangely, I was off on that Tuesday as I was collecting my Grand daughter from the Princess Anne hospital (it's her birthday today). As Mrs h was helping our daughter to pack her bits, I sat in the guests lounge with my mouth open watching the reports as they came in. I was on my own and quite lterally could not move.

 

After what seemed like ages, I stood up and walking like a zombie, went and told the girls that they had to come and see what was happening. As we went I actually remember feeling faint and having to sit down. I don't remember much else about the day, and you know how sometimes you arrive somewhere after a drive and don't remember the journey? Well, I can't rmemember bringing my first Granddaughter home.

 

I have never watched any footage since, never read any reports and I just got on with my life. actually, this thread is the first time I have ever read about the conspiracy theories.

 

7 years on (April 2008), I went to New York with my sister to visit my Nephew who lives in New Jersey. Whilst planning the trip, discussing our itineray, WTC was suggested. I was adamant that I really did not want to go there, I really didn't think it healthy to stand and look at a graveyard (sorry to put it like that). Ironically (I expect to be corrected on my mis-use of the word), my sister didn't want to go to the Dakota Building (top of my list) so I nearly didn't get to say goodbye to one of my all time heroes.

 

With Phil as our guide we boarded the train from NJ to NY, a couple of stops along and out we jump, **** me, we were at the World Trade Centre!!!!! I can't put it into words, but I had the exact same feeling as I had had 7 years earlier and felt very faint, we were at the WTC station. It was not qute the exact location, but as we walked through, we could see the construction site that I so wanted to avoid visiting. We left the station and were drawn to the little church (St Paul's) across the road. A very surreal experience I can assure you.

 

Nealrly finished, I promise.

 

A couple of days later and making an early start, Mrs h and I went out for the day on our own (Sunday I think), previous route, PATH train from Exchange Place to WTC, I was prepered for it this time, or so I thought. Lo and behold as we are walking I notice that we are taking a diversion! We were walking right through part of the brand new station concourse, I was walking through the graveyard that I so wanted to avoid even looking at prior to our visit. It felt a stough I had been drawn there, very spooky and the weird thing is that I noticed something tha I had never noticed before, and that was the smell of fresh concrete, I can smell it now as I write this, I really can.

 

I honestly and ashamedly thought that it would spoil our trip, but it actually made it qute special, that and sitting in Strawberry fields and singing 'Yesterday' to myself.

 

I do hope you are wrong ESB, I really do. I can't begin to imagine what the aftermath would be.

 

Ends

 

Very good read Hamster and I can relate to much of your experiences. I have spent a lot of time in NY in the past and regularly visited the Two Towers before 9/11. I went back several times in 2002 and 2003 on business but was never able to 'steel' myself to go and visit the site on my own and thankfully most of my contacts had moved to Midtown by then anyway. I haven't been back since and I will never forget how the repurcussions of that day rippled across the lives of those directly or indirectly involved with the atrocity.

 

I don't think there would have been any shame on your part if you had avoided the visit to not spoil your trip because we all try to cope with things like this in very different ways. That said I'm pleased you made the visit accidently or otherwise and that it helped you in some way even if it was just a good feeling having made the visit.

[Viking Warrior]

So Bexy given you ability to disprove world events lockerbie , 9/11 et al

 

Do I take it your view of the 1963 Great Train Robbery was not the work of Ronnie Biggs and Co but the work of Harold wilson and Co to gee up support for himself and his cronies?

 

After all was his resignation not 'linked to MI6, burglary and insider trading'

according to the Times newspaper

[Ponty]

Over to you ponty.......

 

What do you expect me to say? - I'm not arguing with JB, or anyone for that matter.

 

Nice job, seems that they've stretched the truth somewhat there and that bloke is not all he appears.

 

I do stand by what I said though; I just didn't mean that particular "pilot".

 

[Atticus Finch of Maycomb]

I was at home when it happened. I had just put in some toast and was waiting for it to brown.

 

I remember reaching into the fridge for the butter or margarine (forget which) when i HEARD A NOISE FROM THE OTHER ROOM.

 

It was a large, clear envelope falling through the lwetterbox, advertising some christmas fayre at my local large department store. I remember flicking through the catalogue, whilst sipping tea and eating my toast.

 

I was 55 at the time. That toast is something i will probably never forget.

 

i found this post realy offensive

 

now back to the conspiracy theories

[Baj]

What do you expect me to say? - I'm not arguing with JB, or anyone for that matter.

 

Nice job, seems that they've stretched the truth somewhat there and that bloke is not all he appears.

 

I do stand by what I said though; I just didn't mean that particular "pilot".

 

Indeed, how about these pilots?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html

[Verbal]

And not forgetting:

 

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67816

[Baj]

I did find this little nugget:

Glen(n) Stanish(G* Stanish and other mispellings attempted) is not listed in the FAA airmans database - so as far as the FAA is concerned, there is no such airman

 

Well you obviously didnt look that hard

 

RELDOMCB:A2389902,GLEN RICHARD ,STANISH ,2170 RUNNING BROOK LN , ,GREENWOOD ,IN,46143-9250,USA ,GL,1,082009,022010,

[Verbal]

And who's to say this professional pilot is wrong about Stanish et al?

 

 

"I feel safe I will never fly with these idiots! Sorry for the idiot statement but I have seen this guys work and as a fellow pilot I apologize that some pilots are insane and let their political or religious beliefs suspend reality.

 

Only 14 pilots! The Air Force produced 2000 pilots a year during Vietnam. There must be millions of pilots. This is good news for those who fly, only 14 out of millions of pilots are into fiction and let political or just plan mental illness issues interfere with their rational thinking."

[Minty]

I worked in airport security at the time of the twin towers incident, everything changed that day.

 

There's an understatement... I remember it well too because I worked with hamster, and I was the Manager on call on the night of 9/11...

 

I was off on the actual day, and first became aware of it whilst in the Tempo superstore on Millbrook Road (now Porcelanosa)... seeing it on about 50 tv screens all across the back wall of the store was unbelievable. I was actually buying a small dictaphone because I was then on my way to Staplewood to interview Stewart Henderson and an Academy player because I was writing Academy reports and articles for the Echo at the time.

 

When I got to Staplewood, SH knew nothing of it because he'd just finished training. I told him about it, got my interviews and as I left, the lads were all sat in the canteen down there, watching it.

 

That night, about 0300 in the morning, I got the call from the night security team at the airport which I half expected, with the instructions that had been passed to them from the DoT, on what changes were being made to airport security. I then had to oversee the implementation of those changes, which saw every person and bag searched, and obviously caused chaos for thousands of passengers, but there was an eery mood because no one complained, everyone knew exactly what was happening and why, and many passengers didn't even turn up for their flights. The weeks and months afterwards were similarly chaotic with various changes and tweaks to the security measures. I'll never forget it all.

[OldNick]

this is a great read.I find it fascinating all the different views.

A question, if the first plane was supposed to be a grey military plane, why did they not paint it up to look like a civilian aircraft?

I also notice that there were 80odd cctv camers that didnt pick up the plane.I suspect there is no need to have the facing up and would be situted at best ten floors up not 70-100 floors

[OldNick]

There's an understatement... I remember it well too because I worked with hamster, and I was the Manager on call on the night of 9/11...

 

I was off on the actual day, and first became aware of it whilst in the Tempo superstore on Millbrook Road (now Porcelanosa)... seeing it on about 50 tv screens all across the back wall of the store was unbelievable. I was actually buying a small dictaphone because I was then on my way to Staplewood to interview Stewart Henderson and an Academy player because I was writing Academy reports and articles for the Echo at the time.

 

When I got to Staplewood, SH knew nothing of it because he'd just finished training. I told him about it, got my interviews and as I left, the lads were all sat in the canteen down there, watching it.

 

That night, about 0300 in the morning, I got the call from the night security team at the airport which I half expected, with the instructions that had been passed to them from the DoT, on what changes were being made to airport security. I then had to oversee the implementation of those changes, which saw every person and bag searched, and obviously caused chaos for thousands of passengers, but there was an eery mood because no one complained, everyone knew exactly what was happening and why, and many passengers didn't even turn up for their flights. The weeks and months afterwards were similarly chaotic with various changes and tweaks to the security measures. I'll never forget it all.

Tell me how you view this that happened to me a few weeks back from JFK. We were boarded and the captain of the aircraft came over the intercom and said he had a mobile phone with him that had been left in the departure lounge,would the owner please make themselves known to collect it.

Surely a mobile phone should not be brought on board after the passengers had boarded? obviously it was innocent but I was surprised this was allowed to happen.

[saint_stevo]

great thread and some very interesting stuff.

 

4od link to the programme- http://www.channel4.com/programmes/102-minutes-that-changed-america/4od#2934610

Edited 9 September, 2009 by saint_stevo

[Sheaf Saint]

on this scale..or even remotely close..?

 

one min bushes lot are a bunch of clueless clowns.... then they mastermind and carry out the biggest single (what looks like) terrorist plot and convince most of the world..

 

cant quite see it happening really

 

But that's just the point Delldays, they haven't. Recent polls indicate that more than half the population of the USA now believe it was a government cover up. That's quite a few million people. Are they all just 'nutjobs'?

 

So Bexy given you ability to disprove world events lockerbie , 9/11 et al

 

Do I take it your view of the 1963 Great Train Robbery was not the work of Ronnie Biggs and Co but the work of Harold wilson and Co to gee up support for himself and his cronies?

 

After all was his resignation not 'linked to MI6, burglary and insider trading'

according to the Times newspaper

 

Oh yeah Draganov. I can 'disprove' every world event that has ever taken place and show with 100% certainty that the world is in fact made of jelly and that we are all living manifestations of the subconcious mind of a giant octopus.

 

Clearly you haven't paid any atention to anything I have posted, otherwise you would not post ridiculous statements like this.

 

If you want a genuine answer, the fact is I don't know anything about the case of the great train robbery. It happened before I was born and it has never interested me enough to want to do further research on it. Even if I had, what relevance does it have to this discussion?

 

With regard to 9/11 - I haven't at any point pretended to know the full story. Of course I don't. If you go back to my post #105 on this thread you will see what I said....

 

I have done a lot of reading on the subject of 9/11, and the only thing I can say with 100% certainty is that the final report by the 9/11 commission, along with the NIST report into the collapse of the twin towers and their subsequent report on the collapse of WTC7 (which to my mind is one of the most suspicious aspects of the whole saga), are nothing but works of fiction which were intended to cover up the truth rather than expose it.

 

The point being that the Bush administration did everything in their power to make sure that nobody ever conducted an independent, evidence-based analysis that would sift through the available facts and use expert opinions to draw conclusions that would stand up to critical scrutiny.

 

What the 9/11 Commission did, and this is backed up by testimony of people who worked with them, was to base their so-called investigation on the premise that they already knew who was responsible for the attacks, and they came up with a final report which confirmed this view while conveniently ingoring masses of evidence to the contrary which has left hundreds of unanswered questions, which nobody will dare answer.

 

The NIST investigation into the collapse of the WTC towers was carried out on exactly the same principle. Since their report was published, a large number of people from the scientific community (architects, structural engineers etc...) have raised some serious questions about the content of the report and have issued NIST with a request for corrcection on numerous occasions. The most glaring one being centred around the fact that the chairman of the investigation claimed to have no knowledge of molten metal found at ground zero in the weeks after the collapse, which is surely just bizarre. How can they possibly claim to have carried out a proper scientific investigation when they are not even in possession of some of the most basic facts of the matter? There are even testimonies from former NIST employees confirming that the computer simulations which were used to confirm their findings were fudged, and that certain aspects of the investigators' work was completely disregarded in the final report.

 

NIST has refused to respond to these requests for correction, and has declined all offers for any of their spokesmen to enter into a public debate with the 'truthers' about their findings. If they are so sure that their report is correct and true, why are they so scared of debating it publically? Is their argument so paper-thin that it wouldn't stand up to debate? Or are they under immense political pressure to stand firm? Either way, it doesn't look good on them as a scientific organisation.

[Johnny Bognor]

Recent polls indicate that more than half the population of the USA now believe it was a government cover up. That's quite a few million people. Are they all just 'nutjobs'?

 

Only 13% believe in evolution with nearly half (45%) believing in Adam & Eve, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21811/american-beliefs-evolution-vs-bibles-explanation-human-origins.aspx

 

 

If you look at this, sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (41%), UFOs (35%), witches (31%), astrology (29%) and reincarnation (21%);

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2007_Nov_29/ai_n27458332/

 

 

 

What does this prove?

 

Not a lot, but it certainly shows that what half of the population thinks actually means very little in the scheme of things and doesn't prove anything.

[Baj]

Only 13% believe in evolution with nearly half (45%) believing in Adam & Eve, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21811/american-beliefs-evolution-vs-bibles-explanation-human-origins.aspx

 

 

If you look at this, sizeable minorities believe in ghosts (41%), UFOs (35%), witches (31%), astrology (29%) and reincarnation (21%);

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2007_Nov_29/ai_n27458332/

 

 

 

What does this prove?

 

Not a lot, but it certainly shows that what half of the population thinks actually means very little in the scheme of things and doesn't prove anything.

 

Us 'nut jobs' are making a good effort of apologising when we're proven wrong on individual elements, what about your pilot who the FAA have never heard of?

[Verbal]

this is a great read.I find it fascinating all the different views.

A question, if the first plane was supposed to be a grey military plane, why did they not paint it up to look like a civilian aircraft?

I also notice that there were 80odd cctv camers that didnt pick up the plane.I suspect there is no need to have the facing up and would be situted at best ten floors up not 70-100 floors

 

Good question Nick. It does sound odd - but then a lot of the 'truther' stuff is odd, and heavily mixed up in America with anti-Semites and the far right, so don't expect consistency or coherence.

 

As to the 80 cctvs cameras, this is part of the claim, repeated ad nauseum, that there is no photographic or video evidence - or even eyewitness accounts, of a passenger plane crashing into the Pentagon.

 

The fact is there are hundreds of photos (some of them horribly gruesome, of the remains of the passangers, together with remains of the engines, ****pit and various bits of fuselage identifying corporate logos), AND video evidence, AND eyewitnesses. (One of the funniest and most repeated claims is that key eyewitness testimony came from someone who did not exist - David Winslow. He is in fact an Associated Press reporter).

 

And even relatively moderate 'truthers' like 911 research.org now accept that the hole in the Pentagon IS consistent with a Boeing passenger plane hitting it.

 

The problem with many of the US 'truthers' is either that they don't know about this evidence because they are lazy and ignorant (it really doesn't take more than a few minutes to find it) or they are liars - or should that be 'liarers'.

[Verbal]

Bexy, where do you get your poll figures from?

 

I can find a Zogby poll in 2007 which puts the figure at 26%

 

And a Scripp Howard poll in 2006 which puts it at a little more than a third.

 

Nothing that puts the number at over 50%.

[Johnny Bognor]

Us 'nut jobs' are making a good effort of apologising when we're proven wrong on individual elements, what about your pilot who the FAA have never heard of?

 

 

OK, I got that bit wrong and should have checked it out more thoroughly - you have my unreserved apologies. But any sane person can see that the specific video supporting the conspiracy theorists is more floored than the so called plot that they are trying to uncover.

 

So far we have:

 

1. We have a highly-biased-money-making-conspiracy-book-writing-anti-Israeli presenting 'evidence'

 

2. Those flashes are dodgy - go through the timelines again. They have been edited.

 

3. The eyewitness looks more at home on a Little Britain sketch saying "I don't like it"

 

 

If you google all of the so called experts on that video, they are all linked to the same kind of groups. None of them are truly "independent" and are all agenda driven. Show me some INDEPENDENT evidence that is not linked to "truthers". If anything, these guys are conspiring to create a conspiracy.

 

 

This is where I stand. At the end of the day, the Bush administration could have linked Sadam to the 911 attack and could have legimately steamrolled into Iraq the next day. Instead, they went for WMD which they couldn't get right. Do you honestly think that a regime that can't even tell a little porky about Iraq could pull something off on the scale of 911. I simply cannot believe they could.

 

Most plots are undertaken by a small number of people. Take Enron, the biggest corporate scandal in history - only very few people were "in on it". With the number of people required to pull off 911, it would have involved thousands and are you telling me that out of this number, there isn't one single whistleblower?

 

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

 

If there is a cover up, it is more to do with the failure to prevent or respond to the attacks.

Edited 9 September, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[OldNick]

at times of stress and major events like this the statements made by witnesses can sometimes be wrong.That programme itself had people there saying it was a BA aircraft gone into the towers.Others said it the first one was a small aircraft and so the info has to be sifted through to get a better picture.If Obama had been president at the time and the exact same events unfolded im sure most would not have believed a conspiracy.Michael whatshisname who made the other allegations in the past about Bush is still alive, please do not tell me that if Bush and allies are prepared to fly 2 aircraft into buildins he would think twice in having an accident arranged

[Verbal]

at times of stress and major events like this the statements made by witnesses can sometimes be wrong.That programme itself had people there saying it was a BA aircraft gone into the towers.Others said it the first one was a small aircraft and so the info has to be sifted through to get a better picture.If Obama had been president at the time and the exact same events unfolded im sure most would not have believed a conspiracy.Michael whatshisname who made the other allegations in the past about Bush is still alive, please do not tell me that if Bush and allies are prepared to fly 2 aircraft into buildins he would think twice in having an accident arranged

 

The irony, nick, is that the more evidence there is, the less it's believed. I think I'm right in saying that there's only one piece of very fleeting video that shows the first plane hitting the towers. Consequently, there's little or no 'truther' feeding frenzy surrounding this aircraft.

 

But Flight 175 went into the South Tower live on television, and from dozens of angles. Despite the great detail available , some of the more rabid truthers continue to deny that it was plane that hit the tower at all, but a missile. Others go on endlessly about how they've conclusive proof that it was a drone, etc, etc.

 

Sure there are gaps, omissions, censored details, and contradictions in the 'official' story, but the 'truther' alternative - which has the 4 planes landing in a desert airstrip and the passengers and crew offloaded, executed and buried - is just plain (and I use this word advisedly) loony. We are in David Icke territory - literally.

[Nineteen Canteen]

OK, I got that bit wrong and should have checked it out more thoroughly - you have my unreserved apologies. But any sane person can see that the specific video supporting the conspiracy theorists is more floored than the so called plot that they are trying to uncover.

 

So far we have:

 

1. We have a highly-biased-money-making-conspiracy-book-writing-anti-Israeli presenting 'evidence'

 

2. Those flashes are dodgy - go through the timelines again. They have been edited.

 

3. The eyewitness looks more at home on a Little Britain sketch saying "I don't like it"

 

 

If you google all of the so called experts on that video, they are all linked to the same kind of groups. None of them are truly "independent" and are all agenda driven. Show me some INDEPENDENT evidence that is not linked to "truthers". If anything, these guys are conspiring to create a conspiracy.

 

 

This is where I stand. At the end of the day, the Bush administration could have linked Sadam to the 911 attack and could have legimately steamrolled into Iraq the next day. Instead, they went for WMD which they couldn't get right. Do you honestly think that a regime that can't even tell a little porky about Iraq could pull something off on the scale of 911. I simply cannot believe they could.

 

Most plots are undertaken by a small number of people. Take Enron, the biggest corporate scandal in history - only very few people were "in on it". With the number of people required to pull off 911, it would have involved thousands and are you telling me that out of this number, there isn't one single whistleblower?

 

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

 

If there is a cover up, it is more to do with the failure to prevent or respond to the attacks.

 

That is the real crux of the issue. There is no dispute in my mind that these were mindless act's of terrorism but the action or lack of it as events unfolded remains very much open to conjecture.

 

There are a few well informed individuals on here and prior to the plane crashing into the WTC was this not picked up by Air Traffic Control? If they did pick it up it would it perhaps be understandable they assumed something had gone seriously wrong with the plane albeit more innocently and were helplessly witnessing a crash disaster. However, after it hit the WTC and another plane must have been registered as being off course what action was taken then?

 

The image many have spoken about is Bush being informed during that school visit and sitting motionless and apparently helpless. If that was anyone else wouldn't they have have made their apologies in the interests of national sceurity and all that? Could it be nothing could be done at such short notice and that a decision to eliminiate packed civilian planes was unable to be reached in the panic? A very tough call to make for anyone.

 

Ultimately, was this not a simple cover up to hide the ineptitude of the US President and preserve the integrity of the world's most powerful man and his decision makers?

[.comsaint]

My gf is from new york and she wants to watch this but channel 4 player wont let her(ironic), ive looked and cant find another site with it on does any one know any?

 

If she can't view it on the Channel 4 player - it's available to see here:

 

Part 1 of 2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2947888180526230130#

 

Part 2 of 2: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2947888180526230130#docid=-3694706480383919917

 

Hope this helps.

[Verbal]

prior to the plane crashing into the WTC was this not picked up by Air Traffic Control? If they did pick it up it would it perhaps be understandable they assumed something had gone seriously wrong with the plane albeit more innocently and were helplessly witnessing a crash disaster. However, after it hit the WTC and another plane must have been registered as being off course what action was taken then?

 

The first sign of trouble on the day was when AA 11, on route from Boston to LA, suddenly switched off its transponder. The ATCs still had information about the plane's position, but not on other telemetry.

 

The second sign of trouble was when the plane suddenly veered off course, working its way around a big loop.

 

The third sign was when Atta, at the controls of the plane, mistakenly hit an intercom button that broadcast to ATCs a message that was presumably aimed at the passengers (but which they never heard). In it, he said 'We have some planes..'

 

You have to remember the wider context. This kind of thing had never happened on US territory. Each of the danger signs were not quite unambiguous enough to trigger responses that might have prevented the plane getting all the way down the Hudson to the towers.

 

So, yes, something was picked up by the ATCs, they did relay the message to military air controllers that they believed a hijack was underway, but it left precious little time to act, especially with various people in the chain of command saying: 'What...?!'

 

What happened after that, and in the minutes before 175 hit, is, of course, the home territory of the conspiracy theorists.

Edited 9 September, 2009 by Verbal

[badgerx16]

There is no dispute in my mind that these were mindless act's of terrorism

There are very few 'mindless acts" of terrorism. The people who plan and carry out these acts are living, breathing, thinking, and quite often highly intelligent human beings, who do so generally out of a sense of injustice; real or imagined is open to interpretation dependant on which side of their argument you stand.

How aggreived would you have to feel to do something like this ? To carry out a hijack knowing that your death was at the end of it, not at the hands of some law enforcement agency, but at your own hands. There is some very powerful motivation involved here, and as has been evidenced by this week's court case, we are still failing to prevent others taking the same stance against us.

[Johnny Bognor]

That is the real crux of the issue. There is no dispute in my mind that these were mindless act's of terrorism but the action or lack of it as events unfolded remains very much open to conjecture.

 

Ultimately, was this not a simple cover up to hide the ineptitude of the US President and preserve the integrity of the world's most powerful man and his decision makers?

 

We've found some common ground at last. Totally agree with what you have said.

 

There is no doubt that certain elements / events of the day have been covered up, but this is more to protect the intregity / reputations / interests / jobs of these individuals. There were people responsible for the security of the USA who failed miserably on that day and indeed many of them would have been trying to cover their backsides.

[OldNick]

I think in the programme re the plane that never made its target, it said that the other planes were below radar contact.

[.comsaint]

The first sign of trouble on the day was when AA 11, on route from Boston to LA, suddenly switched off its transponder. The ATCs still had information about the plane's position, but not on other telemetry.

 

The second sign of trouble was when the plane suddenly veered off course, working its way around a big loop.

 

The third sign was when Atta, at the controls of the plane, mistakenly hit an intercom button that broadcast to ATCs a message that was presumably aimed at the passengers (but which they never heard). In it, he said 'We have some planes..'

 

You have to remember the wider context. This kind of thing had never happened on US territory. Each of the danger signs were not quite unambiguous enough to trigger responses that might have prevented the plane getting all the way down the Hudson to the towers.

 

So, yes, something was picked up by the ATCs, they did relay the message to military air controllers that they believed a hijack was underway, but it left precious little time to act, especially with various people in the chain of command saying: 'What...?!'

 

 

Indeed. A "classic" example of all of this (and the opening events of that awful day in general really) is the first 30 seconds or so of that 102 Minutes documentary. The documentary opens with the voice of an off-duty fireman phoning the emergency services - saying: "This is off-duty firefighter Jermaine...er...I guess you got this already. You got a plane crashed into the World Trade Center...are you aware of that?" Then there's a couple or seconds of pause from the operator before he says; "We got a plane?...that crashed into the World Trade Center?...in Manhatten?". [Firefighter] "World Trade Center in Manhatten..."

 

Then there's several seconds of silence - as if to say the operator thinks it's a crank call...or something like that just couldn't happen or was utterly impossible. Total disbelief.

[Thorpe-le-Saint]

and we never will or should expect too any time soon...

 

Why? It's our right, or more accuratly, those of the American's, as citizens of that nation to know what is going on/what has gone on.

[Verbal]

I think in the programme re the plane that never made its target, it said that the other planes were below radar contact.

 

I don't think that's quite right, Nick. The hijackers switched off the transponders, but the planes were still visible on radar. On Flight 11, for example, the plane was tracked right up to the moment of impact with the North Tower.

 

On the ATC screens, each plane's position is represented by a small blue or white square, with numbers attached. These numbers come from the plane's transponder, and tell ATCs about the plane's airspeed and altitude.

 

By switching off the transponders, it's my guess - and it's only that - that the hijackers in their (relative) ignorance believed they were able to switch off their radar signature. All they actually did was switch off the numbers around the 'position' blue squares.

 

Which reminds me of one of my biggest complaints about the conspiracy theorists. When, in 2004, we did a minute-by-minute reconstruction of what happened on Flight 11 for the History Channel, no one had done it before. No one has done it since.

 

And a large part of the reason for that, I think is that the cretinous 'truther' extremists in the US have ruled information about what happened inside the planes out of court. It's just not relevant - or if it is, it's a complete fabrication, because the planes were obviously being flown empty by robots, or weren't even planes at all.

 

Their antics have certainly driven some broadcasters towards the truther hotspots in the whole 9/11 story, and away from places where there's real evidence and revealing stories to tell.

 

If the US Government is guilty of multiple cover-ups, so, in spades, are the 'truthers'.

Edited 9 September, 2009 by Verbal

[aintforever]

Ultimately, was this not a simple cover up to hide the ineptitude of the US President and preserve the integrity of the world's most powerful man and his decision makers?

 

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the US security agencies new that something was being planned, and had the terrorists on their radar, but purposely let them get on with it believing they wouldn't do something so bad.

 

Lets not forget that the attacks changed the whole attitude of a country and gave the US government the green light to plunder one of the biggest oil reserves in the world. Oil, security and arms companies stood to make billions. Plus there is the Israel connection, the whole of the US could suddenly empathise with their situation.

[Thedelldays]

I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that the US security agencies new that something was being planned, and had the terrorists on their radar, but purposely let them get on with it believing they wouldn't do something so bad.

 

.

 

 

something like that..

 

The US were warned of an attack on their country from Al-qaeda by the Taliban themselves.....but I guess, they called the bluff...and lost

[OldNick]

another thing that the people who took the calls may never forgive themselves for is they told those people to stay where they were and not try to get out.Perhaps there was no way out but it would have been worth trying.The images the people trapped saw must have been waful for them to jump rather than be consumed.

[Saint_clark]

Indeed. A "classic" example of all of this (and the opening events of that awful day in general really) is the first 30 seconds or so of that 102 Minutes documentary. The documentary opens with the voice of an off-duty fireman phoning the emergency services - saying: "This is off-duty firefighter Jermaine...er...I guess you got this already. You got a plane crashed into the World Trade Center...are you aware of that?" Then there's a couple or seconds of pause from the operator before he says; "We got a plane?...that crashed into the World Trade Center?...in Manhatten?". [Firefighter] "World Trade Center in Manhatten..."

 

Then there's several seconds of silence - as if to say the operator thinks it's a crank call...or something like that just couldn't happen or was utterly impossible. Total disbelief.

 

And another one which is played over and over

"Do we wanna think about scrambling some jets to intercept?"

"Oh, god.....I don't know..."

[Saint_clark]

another thing that the people who took the calls may never forgive themselves for is they told those people to stay where they were and not try to get out.Perhaps there was no way out but it would have been worth trying.The images the people trapped saw must have been waful for them to jump rather than be consumed.

 

That is something I hope I never have to understand - what could be so bad that you would jump from such a height, knowing you would die.

[Thedelldays]

And another one which is played over and over

"Do we wanna think about scrambling some jets to intercept?"

"Oh, god.....I don't know..."

must have been chaos..all going off over a short space of time..the biggest terrorist attack ever and someone had to make a call to shoot down what was possibly a load of civillian passengers..

 

impossible

[OldNick]

That is something I hope I never have to understand - what could be so bad that you would jump from such a height, knowing you would die.

their last experiences of life must have been horrendous. People instantaneously combusting and melting in front of their eyes. I always will remember the picture of the man and woman hand in hand as they plummet to earth.