School violence blamed on corporal punishment removal

[Saint in Paradise]

Mr McCroskie said student behaviour would continue to deteriorate "for as long as we tell them that their rights are more important than their responsibilities".

 

Full article on

 

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5888941/school-violence-blamed-on-corporal-punishment-removal/

[harvey]

Mr McCroskie said student behaviour would continue to deteriorate "for as long as we tell them that their rights are more important than their responsibilities".

 

Full article on

 

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5888941/school-violence-blamed-on-corporal-punishment-removal/

 

I remember that we you'sd to have 'the strap' in Hawera at school in the 70's....**** the life out of me so it did :smt105

[John Boy Saint]

Knowing that you would be sent for the cane from the Headmaster or Deputy Head for misdemeanour's at school was a line drawn in the sand that most chose to respect, but some chose to cross with the inevitable consequences. The same line was drawn at home. Living inside the line was perfectly easy and made for a comfortable life all round. Since the demise of the cane at school and the frowned upon action of smacking your kids, there is no line in the sand so this respect that all the people talk about just becomes a hollow word. Society on the whole is becoming feral, and with the limits of acceptability being pushed all the time resulting in a refusal to accept the responsibilty of crossing that line when it all goes wrong just compounds it all.

 

Right! now where is my Daily Mail ?

[harvey]

Knowing that you would be sent for the cane from the Headmaster or Deputy Head for misdemeanour's at school was a line drawn in the sand that most chose to respect, but some chose to cross with the inevitable consequences. The same line was drawn at home. Living inside the line was perfectly easy and made for a comfortable life all round. Since the demise of the cane at school and the frowned upon action of smacking your kids, there is no line in the sand so this respect that all the people talk about just becomes a hollow word. Society on the whole is becoming feral, and with the limits of acceptability being pushed all the time resulting in a refusal to accept the responsibilty of crossing that line when it all goes wrong just compounds it all.

 

Right! now where is my Daily Mail ?

 

Gotta agree with that 100%.

[Saint_clark]

Don't agree.

I was never beaten, but I never had the slightest urge to act violently as I was brought up to KNOW it was wrong.

[BadgerBadger]

I had a backside that was black and blue from the belt or hand as a youngster and I'll never do the same to my kids as all it did for me was give me a 'fack you' attitude, the punishment was used in place of good communication and I would've been far better dealt with by being given a rationale and explanation for what it's all about - 'the pen is mightier than the sword' is still a very prudent statement but it's how both are handled that is the key to it all

 

What it did give me though was a placid outlook and that violence serves nothing but the perpetrators ego - shows the subject to be a contentious one I guess

Edited 28 August, 2009 by BadgerBadger

[Saintandy666]

I don't think it is a teachers right or place to hit children as a punishment, and I know for a fact many teachers would feel uncomfortable doing this as well. However, my dad did smack me very occasionally as a young Child if I did something particulally bad. I think the choice should lie with the parents though, I don't think it helps much in most cases and I think other methods are just as effective, and sometimes the use of a cane for example can make matters worse in the long run.

[John Boy Saint]

Don't agree.

I was never beaten, but I never had the slightest urge to act violently as I was brought up to KNOW it was wrong.

I am in the same boat, apart from getting a wallop across my backside from my Dad for something I knew that if I got caught I would cop it. Did the crime; did the time as the saying goes, and lived with it.

You are in the majority of decent people by nature, probably as a result of having decent parents who were brought up knowing where the lines of acceptability were. Trouble is you now have people who have never had the lines of acceptable behaviour drawn and consequences for crossing them being received bringing up children who have even less of a line to mark their behaviour against which ultimately results in them being less accepting of their actions when they have done wrong.

 

I had no problem with the threat of the cane at school, I think that I am a better person for knowing where the line was, even though I tried to see how close to it I could get, and got sent for it twice, and talked my way out of it both times: probably how I ended up selling for a living.

[St Landrew]

Don't agree.

I was never beaten, but I never had the slightest urge to act violently as I was brought up to KNOW it was wrong.

 

Same here.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Knowing that you would be sent for the cane from the Headmaster or Deputy Head for misdemeanour's at school was a line drawn in the sand that most chose to respect, but some chose to cross with the inevitable consequences. The same line was drawn at home. Living inside the line was perfectly easy and made for a comfortable life all round. Since the demise of the cane at school and the frowned upon action of smacking your kids, there is no line in the sand so this respect that all the people talk about just becomes a hollow word. Society on the whole is becoming feral, and with the limits of acceptability being pushed all the time resulting in a refusal to accept the responsibilty of crossing that line when it all goes wrong just compounds it all.

 

Right! now where is my Daily Mail ?

 

As a left wing, tree hugging, loony I have to say you've summed things up perfectly well. There are no boundaries now, and the scrotes know it!

 

The pertinent question to me is How do these kids, the future adults, get to be like this though? Surely the root cause is errant parenting? Not setting rules/codes of behaviour? I still think that the majority of parents do set these boundaries and rigidly enforce them. Our son, almost 8, knows those boundaries and respects them despite the fact that we have not had to smack him or the like. Set a good example and the kids will tend to follow.

[spyinthesky]

ESB

Agree with your viewpoint. Problem is nowadays kids are encouraged to grow up so early and they have higher expectations and 'rights' than in the past.

 

Also, like you and many others, my wife and I have tried to spend time with our kids and teach them right from wrong. However parenting is not easy and there may be benefit in parenting classes, from an early age.

 

Unfortunately the number of kids who are brought up without love or a sense of direction seems to be growing and we all suffer.

 

Going back to the main topic, I used to get the occasional wack from my Dad and had the cane at school.

 

A couple of times I felt a bit agrieved but mostly I had to accept it was my own fault and I had crossed pre set boundaries

[INFLUENCED.COM]

Trouble is you now have people who have never had the lines of acceptable behaviour drawn and consequences for crossing them being received bringing up children who have even less of a line to mark their behaviour against which ultimately results in them being less accepting of their actions when they have done wrong..

 

Agree, too many parents want to be 'friends' with their children.

 

I preferred a wallop over a grounding, I preferred the cane over a letter home which would have led to a wallop and a grounding, getting the cane from a certain Welsh teacher at school seemed to give him pleasure, however, I couldn't go home and say "Mr ********s gave me the cane and he enjoyed it", as that would have led to a wallop and a grounding.

Punishment from teachers at school and my parents at home was as a consequence of my wrong doing, wrong doing was what I knew it to be when I was doing it as I was taught right from wrong from about the age of 2, children act violently inherently, you simply have to "teach" them it is wrong to hit out and it would be better to teach that without hitting out yourself but hey ho never done me any harm !!!!!

[Saintandy666]

Agree, too many parents want to be 'friends' with their children.

I preferred a wallop over a grounding, I preferred the cane over a letter home which would have led to a wallop and a grounding, getting the cane from a certain Welsh teacher at school seemed to give him pleasure, however, I couldn't go home and say "Mr ********s gave me the cane and he enjoyed it", as that would have led to a wallop and a grounding.

Punishment from teachers at school and my parents at home was as a consequence of my wrong doing, wrong doing was what I knew it to be when I was doing it as I was taught right from wrong from about the age of 2, children act violently inherently, you simply have to "teach" them it is wrong to hit out and it would be better to teach that without hitting out yourself but hey ho never done me any harm !!!!!

 

I think a good relationship between the parent and the child is one of the most important things in a childs developement, you don't want it as some long distance cold relationship where the parent acts as some sort of punisher. Parents should be somewhere that as a child, you are never afraid to turn too.

[sotonjoe]

You don't need to resort to violence to teach right from wrong.

[spyinthesky]

True but there must be boundaries and these days those boundaries are blurred.

I believe most kids thrive on a sense of discipline but more kids than ever consider breaking the rules as a badge of honour and our society is too weak to reign them in.

I am proud of my country but despair at the behaviour of our young people (and also some grown ups) when abroad.

Even the Americans (from whom we seem to have learnt some bad ways) appear to bring up their kids to behave reasonably well. Quite noisy but far less drunkeness and profanities.

Same elsewhere in Europe by and large.

Collectively we must be failing somewhere

[sotonjoe]

What has teaching boundaries got to do with slapping someone?

[tpbury]

The only boundaries I was ever taught was in Geography....

 

I am a bit dispirited by the urge of some people to want the right to whack their children. God knows I've done it, but in a fit of temper which I haven't been able to control - which just goes to show what a stupid way this is to teach your child.

 

I can see more benefits with the group who hit their children in a non emotional way, but I think you have to be incredibly controlled and possibly cold to do this. This ties in with the "don't be a friend" argument - at what point does bringing up your children differ from dog rearing?

 

As my kids get older I get a lot of pleasure from interacting with them as people, as such, the thought of hitting them in order to get them to do what I want seems just the same as hitting someone in the street for the same reason - ie just violent.

[tpbury]

I think a good relationship between the parent and the child is one of the most important things in a childs developement, you don't want it as some long distance cold relationship where the parent acts as some sort of punisher. Parents should be somewhere that as a child, you are never afraid to turn too.

 

Exactly - I re-read this after my previous post. I saw you got gcses so therefore assume you're ca. 16. This led me to ponder about how generations differ. I grew up in the 70s/80s where the post war sterotypes of unemotional, "stiff upper lipped" Brits were still very engrained, and I believe this was almost a hangover from Victorian "down t'pit" attitudes. Children were viewed as medium term employment resources who should be seen and not heard and thus, not loved. Reason being, their parents were brought up the same way.

 

I don't think we have make a choice between an austere relationship with our children and seemingly lawless Chav culture of today. I don't think you have to hit your kids to make them behave; you just have to not be a to5 ser yourself!

[Saintandy666]

Exactly - I re-read this after my previous post. I saw you got gcses so therefore assume you're ca. 16. This led me to ponder about how generations differ. I grew up in the 70s/80s where the post war sterotypes of unemotional, "stiff upper lipped" Brits were still very engrained, and I believe this was almost a hangover from Victorian "down t'pit" attitudes. Children were viewed as medium term employment resources who should be seen and not heard and thus, not loved. Reason being, their parents were brought up the same way.

 

I don't think we have make a choice between an austere relationship with our children and seemingly lawless Chav culture of today. I don't think you have to hit your kids to make them behave; you just have to not be a to5 ser yourself!

 

Exactly, in most cases, children will copy the parents, obviously you going to have to step in sometimes, but largely little children try to copy their parents or whatever influences they are bought up under.

[Saint in Paradise]

So what do you who don't like the idea of a quick short slap propose then ? Being a friend doesn't work,

time out in their rooms with all their toys ? yeh real punishment that, really have them quaking in their shoes,

only slight snag it will be because they are laughing at you.

[sotonjoe]

So what do you who don't like the idea of a quick short slap propose then ? Being a friend doesn't work,

time out in their rooms with all their toys ? yeh real punishment that, really have them quaking in their shoes,

only slight snag it will be because they are laughing at you.

 

Sounds like you were slapped about so much that you lost the ability to construct a sentence. I rest my case.

[sydney_saint]

I think here we have a slight microcosm of the problem in that there is no consensual agreement to bring up children, as shown here by some believing that violent acts is the answer and others saying a good word is the answer. I'm not a parent so am not very educated is these issues but are there many parental advice classes easily accessible? My two pennies is that maybe, if the parents themselves can not teach a kid right or wrong because they themselves have little knowledge of the subject, a teacher can become a parental figure for that child. Today that is becoming nearly impossible for that real strong teacher/ young child relationship as the teacher's social integrity seems to be questioned.

[norwaysaint]

I have never had any problem disciplining students and my classes have always been superb. I've never needed to hit any of them or threaten them with it.

 

The closest I've had was a lad who was very aggressive and had to be stopped fro hitting others. I called his parents in to duscuss it. Their response was: "Yeah we give him a whack at home when he's like that, but it doesn't seem to stop him." which explained it all. They were amazed when his behaviour improved through other methods.

 

In Norway it's illegal to hit children at all, which is as far as I can see, the way it should be. The idea that you can teach children by hitting them every time you think they're wrong is the way of the moron. We don't do it to other grown ups we deal with, why should it be OK with children.

 

I've taught several hundred children and I'm quite strict, but resorting to hitting to make your point is just lazy.

 

The biggest problem facing teachers is simply parents who don't back up what they're learning at school. People don't want to be role models and spend positive time with their kids, they too often want to let them watch telly, play video games or go on the internet. Lazy parenting is the problem.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I think here we have a slight microcosm of the problem in that there is no consensual agreement to bring up children, as shown here by some believing that violent acts is the answer and others saying a good word is the answer. I'm not a parent so am not very educated is these issues but are there many parental advice classes easily accessible? My two pennies is that maybe, if the parents themselves can not teach a kid right or wrong because they themselves have little knowledge of the subject, a teacher can become a parental figure for that child. Today that is becoming nearly impossible for that real strong teacher/ young child relationship as the teacher's social integrity seems to be questioned.

 

A fair summation and it raises two observations in my mind.

 

Teachers. Presumably they (or more largely, the school) are in loco parentis ? With this in mind and your comment about their social integrity being in question, one can understand why a teacher will, if at all possible, avoid a contentious issue or situation and who can blame them?

 

Parental guidance. This is a skill in itself and can sometimes come naturally but mostly is learned through a hit and miss experience coupled with considered thought. By our acts and omissions as parents we are imparting the parenting tools to our children. Maybe most parents would view attending Parenting Classes as an admission of failure?

 

Overall, shouldn't us parents work with the school to form clear, focused routes for us and our children to follow?

 

My Mrs and I are pretty good at parenting but we are not without fail!

 

There is also a fine line between the rare slap in punishment and brutalising a child. Children do learn from parents, most try to do better than their perception of how their parents fared. Those that can't, or can't be bothered, will sadly perpetuate the punishment/violence routine.