67 - 50 - 68 - 82 - 73 - 77 - 80

[TijuanaTim]

And only one - 9 -

 

Is this a little obvious, but do we have a fitness - substitute or late game strategy problem FFS?

[Glasgow_Saint]

yes

[TijuanaTim]

yes

 

All the above or what GS?

 

Can't we just put a 9-1 formation on in the 60th minute? Something...

[SO16_Saint]

thought they were the lottery numbers!

[Glasgow_Saint]

All the above or what GS?

 

Can't we just put a 9-1 formation on in the 60th minute? Something...

 

sadly we have been letting in late goals for as long as i remember - are we worse than other teams, not sure but feels like it!

[once_bitterne]

Premier League team score late goals against lower league opposition shocker....

[TijuanaTim]

Premier League team score late goals against lower league opposition shocker....

 

I get that bit Brad, but 'Uddersfield, Brentford, Millwall and then how many last seson FFS

[TijuanaTim]

sadly we have been letting in late goals for as long as i remember - are we worse than other teams, not sure but feels like it!

 

Mate - we are. If there is a pattern, a trend, constant problem a decent coach can absofu¢kinglutely remedy it...it's randomness that is difficult to deal with.

 

AP seems a fine fellow and good coach. So let's see him cure the obvious that is slapping his face right now!!

[W9Saint]

spot on observation, not sure if it is a fitness problem, confidence issues, or lack of concentration, maybe all three.

[del boy]

Its Saints - its a given

[NickG]

premiership team score late against league 1 who had just had bad injury to defender shock

[TijuanaTim]

Its Saints - its a given

 

 

Totally understand your irony there - however, this is 100% resolvable. Not like random ogs or a spate of unfortunate injuries.

 

During about a 22-23 minute period of matches we have bowed out of a lucrative cup and lost numerous points. So simply, let's address this problem.

 

AP should have his players and staff in a gameplan meeting as we speak - if not tomorrow to address this recurrent problem to ensure it does not happen again.

 

We won the battle of talent, possession and attempts tonight and yet again sickeningly got sucker punched.

[krissyboy31]

To be fair. On Saturday, although we did concede an equaliser, for the first time in several seasons, I thought we actually ended the game as the stronger, fitter team and had put constant pressure on the Brentford goal for the last 10 minutes and throughout injury time.

[TijuanaTim]

premiership team score late against league 1 who had just had bad injury to defender shock

 

 

So Nick, where are 'uddersfield, Millwall, Brentford etc in the Prem? Top 4 or mid table...or did we all miss something.

 

Turn a blind eye mate at something that is glaringly obvious from a coaching prospective - our next opponent ain't a Prem team so they won't score late right?

[TijuanaTim]

To be fair. On Saturday, although we did concede an equaliser, for the first time in several seasons, I thought we actually ended the game as the stronger, fitter team and had put constant pressure on the Brentford goal for the last 10 minutes and throughout injury time.

 

 

That's exactly the point 'we still conceded late'...something is breaking down, let's work and change our closing games out strategy.

[NickG]

got home disappointed at losing - which says something.

 

huge amounts of positives to discuss

 

don't think we need another thread picking holes and giving Pardew ideas such as having team meeting to discuss defeat,

[TijuanaTim]

Nick - your right, but ignoring blatant FACTs is...well blatant stupidity.

 

So something along the lines...AP 'Lads, we are performing positively and an area we have identified to also give us positive results for our positive play, is that of closing games out defensively after the hour mark, this is one of our new challenges'...or something less crass to that effect, right.

[kpturner]

I can't see anything particularly significant in those goal times at all. In fact, they look a pretty even spread - and I am not going to start complaining that we are not conceding enough goals in the first half. Now if they were all around 85 minutes or beyond (or even if the majority were) then you may start to question the fitness of concentration at the end of the match.

[TijuanaTim]

I can't see anything particularly significant in those goal times at all. In fact, they look a pretty even spread - and I am not going to start complaining that we are not conceding enough goals in the first half. Now if they were all around 85 minutes or beyond (or even if the majority were) then you may start to question the fitness of concentration at the end of the match.

 

 

Like I said, nothing better than either

 

a) Waiting for God's intervention

b) Hoping our 'luck' will change

c) Simply ignoring a problem

 

Rather than identifying an area for improvement and taking a challenge to change the trend???

[LostBoys]

I think this is not just a fitness problem but lack of inexperience and concentration issues in tracking back and marking. Having said that I thought most players were taught to track back in the Tyro league.

[Pancake]

Waist size of the average American family?

[NickG]

wonder what is the average time of goals conceded?

 

half time score around the country include lots of 0-0's

 

hazard a guess most teams concede most of their goals in last 15 mins

[NickG]

premiership goals scored

 

first 15 mins 150

 

last 15 of 1st half 168

 

61-75 mins 179

 

last 15 mins 322

 

over double other periods of 15 mins - a lot of unfit prem sides

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I think this is not just a fitness problem but lack of inexperience and concentration issues in tracking back and marking. Having said that I thought most players were taught to track back in the Tyro league.

 

That lack of inexperience has yet to be coverted into wins, that's the problem.

[eurosaint]

That lack of inexperience has yet to be coverted into wins, that's the problem.

 

I guess you mean lack of experience ????

[Scudamore]

Pretty sure Pardew has acknowledged on a number of occasions that the squad isn't fit enough...

 

Problem is how to remedy this. If you thrash the players during non playing periods when we're playing two games a week where do they get the recovery time? And without recovery time they're not gonna be in tip top condition for the games themselves...

 

A balancing act which i'm sure Pards is working on...

 

Mind you players dropping deep and acting like candy asses in the last third of a game is more of a mental issue if you ask me...

[Pancake]

Mind you players dropping deep and acting like candy asses in the last third of a game is more of a mental issue if you ask me...

 

Word. This is something that can be worked out though, yeah? Sport Psychology I believe its called. The fact we are still -8 adrift I think is effecting the players attitude in games.

 

Could that be one of the reasons we won the first Cup game and played a blinder vs Brum in the second? No hang-over of "we really really must win this or we are screwed for the rest of the season" in he players minds?

[The9]

Last night it was due to half the team being crocked by late tackles, as well as the obvious rigours of chasing supposedly better players for 90 minutes.

 

As it was, we played by far the better football until Murty was injured.

[kpturner]

Like I said, nothing better than either

 

a) Waiting for God's intervention

b) Hoping our 'luck' will change

c) Simply ignoring a problem

 

Rather than identifying an area for improvement and taking a challenge to change the trend???

 

There is no trend. You are seeing something that is not there IMHO. Football teams concede goals - that is part of the game. You have just revealed that Saints have conceded goals in the 50th minute, the 67th, the 68th, the 73rd and the 77th - oh, and a couple that could be considered late(ish) - (80th and 82nd). What is this trend to which you allude? How can fitness be an issue for goals conceded between the 50th and 77th minute? Crap defending maybe, fitness - no.

 

Now if you are saying we need to buck the trend of conceding goals (regardless of the time they are scored) then of course I would agree - but that applies to every football team on the planet.

 

What would you be expecting AP to do to prevent goals scored at the start or middle of the second half that would be in any way different to preventing goals scored at any other time in the match?

Edited 26 August, 2009 by kpturner

[Albie79]

I'd be more worried if we conceded goals on

 

4 - 8 - 15 - 16 - 23 - 42

 

[um pahars]

There is no trend. You are seeing something that is not there IMHO. Football teams concede goals - that is part of the game. You have just revealed that Saints have conceded goals in the 50th minute, the 67th, the 68th, the 73rd and the 77th - oh, and a couple that could be considered late(ish) - (80th and 82nd). What is this trend to which you allude? How can fitness be an issue for goals conceded between the 50th and 77th minute? Crap defending maybe, fitness - no.

 

Now if you are saying we need to buck the trend of conceding goals (regardless of the time they are scored) then of course I would agree - but that applies to every football team on the planet.

 

What would you be expecting AP to do to prevent goals scored at the start or middle of the second half that would be in any way different to preventing goals scored at any other time in the match?

 

Take out the 50th minute goal which is obviously normal play and then you then get:

 

85% of our goals conceded in the last 25% of the game.

 

Now, even allowing for a very small sample, then it could well indicate that there is some sort of pattern (physical or mental fitness maybe??).

 

 

 

Nickh's stats for the 2007/8 Premier League goals suggest something like:

 

27% of goals scored in the last 17% of the game

 

So whilst it appears that more goals are disproportionately scored towards the end of games (fitness, injuries, pushing for a goal etc etc etc), our stats could suggest we are even more prone to conceding late on.

[SaintRichmond]

Re 67-50-68-82-73-77-80

 

thought they were the lottery numbers!

 

So did I ..... I just rang in and claimed £2M ............:cool:

[SaintRichmond]

Last night it was due to half the team being crocked by late tackles, as well as the obvious rigours of chasing supposedly better players for 90 minutes.

 

As it was, we played by far the better football until Murty was injured.

 

 

 

Plus .... having a Ref so blatently Baised towards BC it was unreal .... with TWO "linesmen" who, though close to some of BC's late tackles .... uttered not a word

 

Kelvin went on about BC's "Class" ........I certainly didn't see it .... just a lot of Cloggers with a Free Licence To Maim

 

Saints were the only "Football Team " on the Park .... and the ONLY way Birmingham could counter that was to adopt their THUG approach

 

Regretably, sometimes the Good Guys don't always win .......:cool:

[70's Mike]

I think this is not just a fitness problem but lack of inexperience and concentration issues in tracking back and marking. Having said that I thought most players were taught to track back in the Tyro league.

 

agreed Thomas has the concentration powers of a ????????

[kpturner]

Take out the 50th minute goal which is obviously normal play and then you then get:

 

85% of our goals conceded in the last 25% of the game.

 

Now, even allowing for a very small sample, then it could well indicate that there is some sort of pattern (physical or mental fitness maybe??).

 

 

 

Nickh's stats for the 2007/8 Premier League goals suggest something like:

 

27% of goals scored in the last 17% of the game

 

So whilst it appears that more goals are disproportionately scored towards the end of games (fitness, injuries, pushing for a goal etc etc etc), our stats could suggest we are even more prone to conceding late on.

Well you touched on it there. This is a sample of 8 goals (if you include the Swindon goal). You are not seriously suggesting it is possible to derive some sort of statistical analysis or pattern from a sample of that size surely? I admit I too always feel that we always seem to lose a lead late in a game, but I would prefer to base any theory on a pattern on a much larger sample - like last season as a whole for example. I expect that would be much more revealing, but it would not necessarily be relevant to the team that AP is assembling.

 

Nick's stats seem to indicate that we are no different to the average premiership team in terms of when goals are conceded, and it may just be we are no different to any team in any league in the same regard.

Edited 26 August, 2009 by kpturner

[VectisSaint]

Its Saints - its a given

Check out when our manager was WGS. Its not a given, only with the hopeless coaches we have had since the wee man left (and the lack of time AP has had to put a full fitness regime in place, I am not branding him hopeless, that tag is meant for Burley and Agents Orange). It is to do with fitness, that extra fitness that means the players do not lose concentration until the 97 minutes are up. WGS ensured this was covered by his preseason stamina training in the dunes up north and the runs in the Forest.

[ozzmeister]

How often did we concede late when Strachen was in charge - If I remember we prided ourself on that era as a team who won lots of games either 1-0 or 2-1.

 

Its understood that we were probably the fittest we have ever been under WGS, so in my opinion this is more of a fittness thing.

 

Fitness is key and also links strongly to concentration. If you are fatigued by 70/80mins your much more likely to see your concentration go or make a 'weak pass' how often do people at work make silly mistakes when at work when tired?

[kpturner]

Fitness is obviously a key factor in keeping the opposition out late in games, but at what point in the game does fitness become a factor? 70 minutes or 80 or 85 etc? IMHO the fact that we have conceded 3 goals (out of 9) after the 77th minute does not necessarily mean the team lacks fitness. In some ways, no goals conceded after 82 minutes could be argued to be an indication of good fitness by some. Stats are there to be manipulated however you see fit (see what I did there :-) ).

 

Personally I am more concerned that we have conceded 9 goals already - regardless of when they were scored.

[Toadhall Saint]

I thought most teams used subs around the times stated TBH.

[kelkel31]

not going to argue with the main point of the thread, it an obvious issue, ill just add one more point

 

why cant we score more goals(or even create decent chances) when we normally control the games for the other 75% of the 90 mins.

 

this is the biggest problem, im pretty sure with a 2 or 3 goal lead the defense would be much more adept at seeing out the last 15-20 mins.

 

just my thoughts of course!

[kpturner]

not going to argue with the main point of the thread, it an obvious issue, ill just add one more point

 

why cant we score more goals(or even create decent chances) when we normally control the games for the other 75% of the 90 mins.

 

this is the biggest problem, im pretty sure with a 2 or 3 goal lead the defense would be much more adept at seeing out the last 15-20 mins.

 

just my thoughts of course!

I expect you are right. If we had won all those games because we already had a decent lead then the discussion about fitness/late goals would not be taking place (yet).

[um pahars]

Well you touched on it there. This is a sample of 8 goals (if you include the Swindon goal). You are not seriously suggesting it is possible to derive some sort of statistical analysis or pattern from a sample of that size surely?

 

Indeed, as I said in my first post, due to the sample size, it wouldn't be prudent to exptrapolate out from such a small amount of data.

 

But there could well be a pattern emerging, so I also wouldn't rule it out.

 

Nick's stats seem to indicate that we are no different to the average premiership team in terms of when goals are conceded, and it may just be we are no different to any team in any league in the same regard.

 

His statistics did not back this assertion up:

 

85% of our goals conceded in the last 25% of the game.

 

against a Premiership average of :

 

27% of goals scored in the last 17% of the game

 

 

So if you do accept that our stats could have some meaning, then we are more than twice as likely to concede than those Premiership teams.

[kpturner]

Indeed, as I said in my first post, due to the sample size, it wouldn't be prudent to exptrapolate out from such a small amount of data.

 

But there could well be a pattern emerging, so I also wouldn't rule it out.

 

 

 

His statistics did not back this assertion up:

 

85% of our goals conceded in the last 25% of the game.

 

against a Premiership average of :

 

27% of goals scored in the last 17% of the game

 

 

So if you do accept that our stats could have some meaning, then we are more than twice as likely to concede than those Premiership teams.

I think we are only going to end up embarrassing ourselves if we ping-pong this back and forth, so let's agree to differ and move on.

[NickG]

UP is right sample too small this season - simple summary - expect more goals to be conceded at the end of games, whoever you are.

[kpturner]

UP is right

Are you sitting on the fence Nick, with UP being a combination of UM and KP

[NickG]

could quite bring myself to agree with um!

[TijuanaTim]

Waist size of the average American family?

 

Ooh a 'nasty' racial stereotype from our squeaky clean Administrator...hey Pancake, try substituting 'American' with women, Indian, Jewish, Catholic, Black, Pakistani...and see the reaction! Or is ok to make bigoted comments about only the people that you in particular are prejudice against??

 

I ain't perfect by a long mile....so all I'm saying is have a look in the 'Moderation' mirror and retract or justify...I mean aren't you responsible for standards or is it just keeping things humourless?

[Tamesaint]

UP is right sample too small this season - simple summary - expect more goals to be conceded at the end of games, whoever you are.

 

But for every team that concedes a goal, another team scores a goal. It may be statistically proven that more goals occur towards the end of a match but why are we not the team scoring them? I cannot remember the last time that we scored a goal in the last 15 minutes. Was it at Watford last season - about 15 games ago??

 

So not only do we concede goals in the last minute but also we never seem to score them. I think that the OP has avalid point - we do have a fitness problem / problem coping with the end of a match.

[Pancake]

Ooh a 'nasty' racial stereotype from our squeaky clean Administrator...hey Pancake, try substituting 'American' with women, Indian, Jewish, Catholic, Black, Pakistani...and see the reaction! Or is ok to make bigoted comments about only the people that you in particular are prejudice against??

 

I ain't perfect by a long mile....so all I'm saying is have a look in the 'Moderation' mirror and retract or justify...I mean aren't you responsible for standards or is it just keeping things humourless?

 

Sorry, but

[Greenridge]

Nick - your right, but ignoring blatant FACTs is...well blatant stupidity.

 

So something along the lines...AP 'Lads, we are performing positively and an area we have identified to also give us positive results for our positive play, is that of closing games out defensively after the hour mark, this is one of our new challenges'...or something less crass to that effect, right.

 

We haven't scored in the first 3 minutes of any of the games either, we should concentrate on that. Seriously you can do anything you like with statistics. 'There are lies, damn lies, and statistics' (Disraeli). As mentioned by UM and others let's see how it pans out and give Pardew time to address these issues.