Time to tell the real story of the mess

[dubai_phil]

Wow - I think the Mulder and Scully references are starting to get to you Phil!

 

 

Lol

 

Wait until it comes out about Marlboro man....

 

He came before admin but after the De Vere & GB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honest!

[Saint Fan CaM]

I think we still need an academy for us to prosper in the long run.

 

Last season the youngsters were used because of the cost cutting in the past they have used when they are ready and the ones not up to standard have moved on is there any reason that we will not produce CCC Level players in the future?

 

Oh yes I agree JB we do still need the academy, if only to straighten out and retrain the poor youngsters who have had the first part of their careers ruined by the last 2 odd years of mis-management.

 

While that's happening, the 1st team needs to be injected with new blood to flush through the motivational, cultural and tactical aspects of the team that have been poisoned by the Rupert/Dutch experiment. Oh yeah, and also to get rid of rubbish players like Wotton who can only pass backwards.

 

Now THAT's what I call re-building the club...only time will tell if Markus, Nicola and AP think the same way. If not, I fear for the results and the ability of the team to perform at a level that will overturn -10pts and then play their way to safety this season.

Edited 19 August, 2009 by Saint Fan CaM

[Saint Fan CaM]

Lol

 

Wait until it comes out about Marlboro man....

 

He came before admin but after the De Vere & GB

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honest!

 

 

LOL - now I'm scared! :smt118

[dubai_phil]

Oh yes I agree JB we do still need the academy, if only to straighten out and retrain the poor youngsters who have had the first part of their careers ruined by the last 2 odd years of mis-management.

 

While that's happening, the 1st team needs to be injected with new blood to flush through the motivational, cultural and tactical aspects of the team that have been poisoned by the Rupert/Dutch experiment. Oh yeah, and also to get rid of rubbish players like Wotton who can only pass backwards.

 

Now THAT's what I call re-building the club...only time will tell if Markus, Nicola and AP think the same way. If not, I fear for the results and the ability of the team to perform at a level that will overturn -10pts and then play their way to safety this season.

 

 

What we actually need is someone with experience and authority to come in and build a structure that oversees the development of kids from the day they leave the Academy until the day they are truly ready for a full season of First Team football.

 

A sort of Post Academy Degree course.

 

Now, if only we knew someone who could fit that role.......

 

 

 

 

For those without irony degrees google the interview with SCW when he was first appointed or the interviews with Glenn Hoddle after the Hero fund invested in his Spanish Academy....

 

Oops

 

There's another set of questions. Damn you SfCam never meant to do that, you tricked me!

[SaintRobbie]

And how much Pinnacle's "never gonna happen" takeover held us back. We are now suffering from a very disorganised close season and there are some who supported Pinnacle who should be asking themselves serious questions.

 

Duncan, I think it's time to move on from that one to be honest. It must be embarrassing enough for MLT. We have the right buyer, we have the right manager, we have no debt, we have the infrastructure and all we now need is to rid ourselves of Rupert Lowe's losing/relegation side and rebuild Alan Pardew's own team.

 

A couple of weeks wouldnt have made the slightest difference if you want my opinion - especially when you have to ship out alot of very poor young players and replace the majority of the team.

 

That will take some time. None of this should be a surprise to be honest. Our team was shocking last season and has been further eroded with thus far only a couple of fresh signings.

 

Bring on the new blood...

 

We were never going up this season - only ever fighting a relegation battle until reinforcements arrived. 2 weeks frankly will make NO difference at all - we will challenge for promotion NEXT season, not this one.

[Saint Fan CaM]

Mmm, very interesting stuff Phil... a simple little search unearthed some very interesting stuff here...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/10/premierleague

 

For example...

"Hero first drew up plans to get into the economic rights business in the summer of 2006, enlisting Elleray as an adviser, along with the Israeli dealmaker Pini Zahavi. Roberts said they held off because of Lord Stevens' bungs inquiry and the murk surrounding the transfer system, but have pressed on since, securing the Emirates NBD investment. They decided not to proceed with Zahavi's involvement because he works as an agent which, Roberts said, could have created conflicts of interest.

 

The Hero fund will pay money directly to clubs here and in Europe, to enable them to buy or retain young players and pay their way in a difficult economic climate. In return the fund will be entitled to a share of the transfer fee when the player is sold — Roberts quoted potential cuts of 10% up to 40%, promising that the deals will be open and above board. The fund will not stipulate that a club must sell a player if a profitable offer comes in, will not charge interest, and will make a loss on players who do not secure lucrative moves."

 

The depth and extent of this are almost too complex to fathom and although not directly linked, it gives a small insight into why a club like Saints might invest in a player like Pulis perhaps?

[CanadaSaint]

CS - watching Matt on Sky Sports tonight gives me mixed emotions. If he just came clean and held his hands up we or sorry I could start loving him again.

But I think I will let it drop - the clientele on here are not ready for this story and I guess in the greater picture it is not THAT important.

 

I hear you, Duncan, but nothing for me will ever diminish what he's given to this Club. The real sadness of the Pinnacle phase was their shameless use of a man who didn't deserve to be used. I'm damned if I'll let that lot dent my feelings for MLT. They've already done enough damage without hurting my regard for an icon.

 

I don't blame him for being used and I don't blame him for not saying what he'd probably like to say right now. He will say it, though, in time. Only then will the real story start to emerge, if it ever does.

[dubai_phil]

Mmm, very interesting stuff Phil... a simple little search unearthed some very interesting stuff here...

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/dec/10/premierleague

 

For example...

"Hero first drew up plans to get into the economic rights business in the summer of 2006, enlisting Elleray as an adviser, along with the Israeli dealmaker Pini Zahavi. Roberts said they held off because of Lord Stevens' bungs inquiry and the murk surrounding the transfer system, but have pressed on since, securing the Emirates NBD investment. They decided not to proceed with Zahavi's involvement because he works as an agent which, Roberts said, could have created conflicts of interest.

 

The Hero fund will pay money directly to clubs here and in Europe, to enable them to buy or retain young players and pay their way in a difficult economic climate. In return the fund will be entitled to a share of the transfer fee when the player is sold — Roberts quoted potential cuts of 10% up to 40%, promising that the deals will be open and above board. The fund will not stipulate that a club must sell a player if a profitable offer comes in, will not charge interest, and will make a loss on players who do not secure lucrative moves."

 

The depth and extent of this are almost too complex to fathom and although not directly linked, it gives a small insight into why a club like Saints might invest in a player like Pulis perhaps?

 

They never got their PL approval, but now ask yourself one question...

 

No, actually better not, but it could be a small piece of the jigsaw

 

goodnight

[Nineteen Canteen]

Thanks, Duncan and DP.

 

This is what I'm talking about when I say I don't think the full story will ever be told. That kind of threat and intimidation takes a toll but it's really, really saddening if MLT was sucked into it.

 

On the one hand there's the argument that there's nothing to gain by dredging this stuff up, so let's turn the page and move on.

 

On the other hand it's hard to see how we can ever "start to heal", in DP's words, if this sickening (and apparently longstanding - WGS at Newcastle FFS) saga isn't fully brought into the open.

 

But Duncan would have to have ginormous testicles to start putting pen to paper on this one.[/QUOTE]

 

That maybe so but I bet you if Duncan did write it with input from a few well chosen contacts then it would easily out sell Graham Hiley's biography of MLT. Sorry my mistake I mean't autobiography.

[Nineteen Canteen]

CS - watching Matt on Sky Sports tonight gives me mixed emotions. If he just came clean and held his hands up we or sorry I could start loving him again.

But I think I will let it drop - the clientele on here are not ready for this story and I guess in the greater picture it is not THAT important.

 

The clientele on here Duncan represent barely 5% of our opening day attendance at least those who post regularly. I don't think we should ever under estimate the need to know the real story and it grates with me regardless of his reputation that MLT hasn't afforded the fans a little reciprocated respect and tell his validated side of the story. Just makes me think what has he got to hide?

[captainchris]

Christ doesn't AP have any contacts?

 

Christ it was Swindon not blinkin Chelsea. We should be more worried about our game which we haven't yet planned once from what I've seen before we start worrying about Swindon!!

 

Sounded too much like an excuse for my liking!!!

[Nineteen Canteen]

I hear you, Duncan, but nothing for me will ever diminish what he's given to this Club. The real sadness of the Pinnacle phase was their shameless use of a man who didn't deserve to be used. I'm damned if I'll let that lot dent my feelings for MLT. They've already done enough damage without hurting my regard for an icon.

 

I don't blame him for being used and I don't blame him for not saying what he'd probably like to say right now. He will say it, though, in time. Only then will the real story start to emerge, if it ever does.

 

CS he allegedly said recently on Sky (I didn't see the programme and refer to posts on here) that it was clear Pinnacle didn't have the funds not long after exclusivity but as we know even at the 11th hour he was telling us they were confident the bid would be successful long after their allotted deadline had passed simply adding to the delays seemingly without hope.

 

What he has said so far allegedly does not seem to add up to what he said at the time so when do you think his real story will emerge and what will compell him to tell it? MLT may have got sucked into the bid initially but if he knew quickly the funds weren't there why carry on with what IMO was nothing but a hopeful charade that did far more damage than good.

[Wes Tender]

Nineteen, why can't you just accept that the regime at the club has changed, all of the people most responsible for the club's demise are gone and we have a chance to heal the divisions and move on as a united entity?

 

How long must you keep on gnawing at this particular bone?

[Weston Saint]

They never got their PL approval, but now ask yourself one question...

 

No, actually better not, but it could be a small piece of the jigsaw

 

goodnight

Yep certainly was. Helped put us into Administration.

[Redondo Saint]

CS he allegedly said recently on Sky (I didn't see the programme and refer to posts on here) that it was clear Pinnacle didn't have the funds not long after exclusivity but as we know even at the 11th hour he was telling us they were confident the bid would be successful long after their allotted deadline had passed simply adding to the delays seemingly without hope.

 

What he has said so far allegedly does not seem to add up to what he said at the time so when do you think his real story will emerge and what will compell him to tell it? MLT may have got sucked into the bid initially but if he knew quickly the funds weren't there why carry on with what IMO was nothing but a hopeful charade that did far more damage than good.

 

Jesus, this thread seems to be getting out of hand.

 

Any spokesperson/figurehead/PR guru will always talk the party line until the bitter end.

 

I am sure MLT was given positive information until the last minute and therefore stuck with them.

 

I don't believe he would have had any direct dealings with the financial people and therefore was acting in good faith.

 

Business is like any sport - you keep playing until the Ref' says it's over.

 

Time to move on.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Nineteen, why can't you just accept that the regime at the club has changed, all of the people most responsible for the club's demise are gone and we have a chance to heal the divisions and move on as a united entity?

 

How long must you keep on gnawing at this particular bone?

 

With regards to MLT, Crouch and Pinnacle? Until such time as I understand their role in the mess and they at least acknowledge some reponsibility (if necessary) for our near demise and potential loss of the Swiss bid and less than ideal start.

 

People are quick to receive the plaudits and I have no problem with that but they need to stand up and be accountable when things go wrong otherwise are they any better than anyone else from the past 4 years?

 

For once I seem to have identical views as Fitzhugh Fella but without the benefit of his knowledge and in this instance it seems his unpleasant experience.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Jesus, this thread seems to be getting out of hand.

 

Any spokesperson/figurehead/PR guru will always talk the party line until the bitter end.

 

I am sure MLT was given positive information until the last minute and therefore stuck with them.

 

I don't believe he would have had any direct dealings with the financial people and therefore was acting in good faith.

 

Business is like any sport - you keep playing until the Ref' says it's over.

 

Time to move on.

 

That maybe so in the fluffy world of PR but in my experience in important issues you never take everything at face value especially if your reputation or credibility are riding on it. People that I have seen who do are the ones who don't try to understand what they are being asked, are easily bullied or coerced or simply reckless. In any event it usually ends in tears. The time to move on will be when the reports if any get filed or those concerned speak out.

[Wes Tender]

With regards to MLT, Crouch and Pinnacle? Until such time as I understand their role in the mess and they at least acknowledge some reponsibility (if necessary) for our near demise and potential loss of the Swiss bid and less than ideal start.

 

People are quick to receive the plaudits and I have no problem with that but they need to stand up and be accountable when things go wrong otherwise are they any better than anyone else from the past 4 years?

 

For once I seem to have identical views as Fitzhugh Fella but without the benefit of his knowledge and in this instance it seems his unpleasant experience.

 

So how do you intend to find out? Are you going to stalk them until you get an answer? No, that would be bizarre. How about just writing to them and asking them? Take it to an investigative journalist and pay him to do some digging?

 

And whilst you are at it and in the interest of consistency, why don't you investigate the circumstances of another couple of matters, the 10 points deduction and find out why we didn't go for administration before the deadline. What made Lowe so sure that he could bamboozle the FL into accepting that the club and the PLC were not one and the same? Also why the Fry at Barclays pulled the plug on us and then by a huge coincidence turned up working for the very people who were our administrators.

 

As far as I can see, you are not going to get the answers you want, so why not accept that and move on?

[eelpie]

Everyone blames the lack of a pre-season -but we DID have one. Wotte brought the players back two weeks earlier than other squads. But he wasted the time. They should have been on fitness training. They weren't.

[shurlock]

Everyone blames the lack of a pre-season -but we DID have one. Wotte brought the players back two weeks earlier than other squads. But he wasted the time. They should have been on fitness training. They weren't.

 

And they had tyre-kickers harassing/asking them what they wanted for breakfast....eggs

[CanadaSaint]

CS he allegedly said recently on Sky (I didn't see the programme and refer to posts on here) that it was clear Pinnacle didn't have the funds not long after exclusivity but as we know even at the 11th hour he was telling us they were confident the bid would be successful long after their allotted deadline had passed simply adding to the delays seemingly without hope.

 

What he has said so far allegedly does not seem to add up to what he said at the time so when do you think his real story will emerge and what will compell him to tell it? MLT may have got sucked into the bid initially but if he knew quickly the funds weren't there why carry on with what IMO was nothing but a hopeful charade that did far more damage than good.

 

NC, I suspect that MLT would love to have his time over again on this one but, of course, he can't. I don't know if the real story will ever emerge, but I do know this:

 

People all over the world (including here in Canada) know exactly who MLT is and who he played for, and hold him in very high regard for his sublime football skills. His accomplishments reside in archives that will long outlast him and us. As Saints fans we can't cite too many of our players who have even come close to that kind of status.

 

Nobody, apart from most Saints fans, know who the hell Pinnacle are/were, never mind Lynham and Fialka. In years to come, even Saints fans won't know who the hell they were.

 

Regardless of when MLT knew about the funding problem and whether he ever chooses to speak up, I will never, ever allow his naive missteps with a bunch of opportunists in 2009 to tarnish some ten years of brilliant images in my eyes.

 

True - I mean iconic - heroes don't come along too often for Saints fans, so we should be really careful about allowing (what time will judge to be) the relatively trivial to dim the truly iconic.

 

Pinnacle, Lynham, Fialka et al. Screw the lot of them.

[John B]

Oh yes I agree JB we do still need the academy, if only to straighten out and retrain the poor youngsters who have had the first part of their careers ruined by the last 2 odd years of mis-management.

 

While that's happening, the 1st team needs to be injected with new blood to flush through the motivational, cultural and tactical aspects of the team that have been poisoned by the Rupert/Dutch experiment. Oh yeah, and also to get rid of rubbish players like Wotton who can only pass backwards.

 

Now THAT's what I call re-building the club...only time will tell if Markus, Nicola and AP think the same way. If not, I fear for the results and the ability of the team to perform at a level that will overturn -10pts and then play their way to safety this season.

 

 

 

You dont seem to a grasp to the history of the club where players brought through the youth ranks from Chivers Williams Le Tissier Shearer Bridge Walcott and Bale have operformed with distinction for the club.

 

 

Last season was without doubt an expectional one as we had no money so more young players were tried but none seem to have their careers ruined as far as I can see.

 

 

Not all will make it from the Academy but some will and will help the club in the future you cannot expect other clubs to develop players for SFC

[Wes Tender]

 

Last season was without doubt an expectional one as we had no money so more young players were tried but none seem to have their careers ruined as far as I can see.

 

 

Not all will make it from the Academy but some will and will help the club in the future you cannot expect other clubs to develop players for SFC

 

Re your first point.

 

Careers ruined is perhaps a bit strong, but jeopardised might be accurate. Without doubt, several youngsters were thrown in at the deep end before they were ready. Ideally they would have been introduced gradually, learning their trade from the seasoned pros around them. The biggest problem caused by last season in particular was the loss of confidence they received when they had a rude awakening when they were thrown out of their comfort zone where they were expecting to win most games in the academy leagues playing against their contemporaries. All of a sudden, they had the weight of expectation that they should save the club thrust upon their shoulders and were often bullied by the big journeymen in the Fizzy Pop league. I think that some still bear the scars and have fragile confidence now.

 

Re your second point.

 

What do you mean by saying we can't expect other clubs to develop players for SFC? We take some youngsters from other club's academies, either to develop them further, or to buy them as the nearly finished article. We send some of our youngsters out on loan to other clubs for them to develop them. Some clubs don't rely heavily on their academies, being wealthy enough to mostly buy the best younger players from clubs like us. I hope that we continue to invest in our academy as a conveyor belt source of good young players to feed us, but although desirable, ML has potentially rendered the academy less necessary than it was.

[trousers]

So how do you intend to find out? Are you going to stalk them until you get an answer? No, that would be bizarre. How about just writing to them and asking them? Take it to an investigative journalist and pay him to do some digging?

 

And whilst you are at it and in the interest of consistency, why don't you investigate the circumstances of another couple of matters, the 10 points deduction and find out why we didn't go for administration before the deadline. What made Lowe so sure that he could bamboozle the FL into accepting that the club and the PLC were not one and the same? Also why the Fry at Barclays pulled the plug on us and then by a huge coincidence turned up working for the very people who were our administrators.

 

As far as I can see, you are not going to get the answers you want, so why not accept that and move on?

 

The trouble is, IMHO, is that it's precisely this 'apathy' to recent history and thus lack of accountability, that people in 'business circles' rely upon to do whatever they want to do and in a devil may care way.

 

If they knew that their actions would be scrutinised and held to account more they would be less likely to act in the way that they do.

 

For example...

 

Would 'Tommac' have had second thoughts about 'inflating' his supposed contact with Allen's people?

 

Would Lynham have persued his takeover for so long whilst knowing his original backers had withdrawn one by one?

 

Would the "WH Ireland/Fry/Barclays/begbies" 'coincidence' have happened?

 

Without post event scrutiny people are more or less at liberty to do what they please, no matter how morally dubious, as they know thier actions will be tomorrow's fish and chip paper.

Edited 20 August, 2009 by trousers

[Verbal]

Not all will make it from the Academy but some will and will help the club in the future you cannot expect other clubs to develop players for SFC

 

Actually, I do expect other clubs to develop players for SFC. As many of the successful teams making their way out of these divisions and further up have demonstrated, the real skill is in spotting not an 11 year old, but a 21 year old who has found himself in the lower league but after getting plenty of time in games is really proving his worth.

 

And as for 'not all will make it from the Academy', that's exactly the point. It's very hit and miss. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a youth squad, but the full-scale academy is a luxury that a League 1 team - even one backed by a billionaire - cannot afford, because it drains resources away from building a first team that can compete NOW, not (with some vague hope) in five, six or more years ahead.

[Wes Tender]

The trouble is, IMHO, is that it's precisely this 'apathy' to recent history and thus lack of accountability, that people in 'business circles' rely upon to do whatever they want to do and in a devil may care way.

 

If they knew that their actions would be scrutinised and held to account more they would be less likely to act in the way that they do.

 

For example...

 

Would 'Tommac' have had second thoughts about 'inflating' his supposed contact with Allen's people?

 

Would Lynham have persued his takeover for so long whilst knowing his original backers had withdrawn one by one?

 

Would the "Fry/Barclays/begbies" 'coincidence' have happened?

 

Without post event scrutiny people are more or less at liberty to do what they please, no matter how morally dubious, as they know thier actions will be tomorrow's fish and chip paper.

 

I suspect that you are right that lots of dubious dealing gets swept under the carpet and is protected by NDAs. Also, there is the risk that some of the people who have possibly been involved in these dodgy dealings are litigious and that might frighten some away from making allegations against them that are difficult to prove conclusively.

 

It also appears to be the case that it must be more difficult for investigative journalists to do some digging and come up with the goods. Our local journos made a first class job of uncovering the moral and ethical shortcomings of the trade in shares of the club at the time of the reverse takeover and that resulted in the Panorama TV programme "The Share Game." It might even be as a result of that to an extent that the club have been meticulous in clamming up with the NDAs or denying the journalists access to anything sensitive.

 

And so it is possible that either there isn't much to uncover in the way of dodgy dealings, or it is tied up watertight in NDAs and so will possibly never come to light.

 

Under those circumstances and because the end result was such a beneficial one for the club, what benefit might be achieved by raking over the coals? Let's move on, unless something floats to the surface which is a cause for concern.

[trousers]

what benefit might be achieved by raking over the coals?

 

to reduce the chances of something similar happening again in the future?

[eurosaint]

With regards to MLT, Crouch and Pinnacle? Until such time as I understand their role in the mess and they at least acknowledge some reponsibility (if necessary) for our near demise and potential loss of the Swiss bid and less than ideal start.

 

People are quick to receive the plaudits and I have no problem with that but they need to stand up and be accountable when things go wrong otherwise are they any better than anyone else from the past 4 years?

 

For once I seem to have identical views as Fitzhugh Fella but without the benefit of his knowledge and in this instance it seems his unpleasant experience.

 

FF thinks that Leon Crouch is the saviour of SFC, do you agree with this???

[Wes Tender]

to reduce the chances of something similar happening again in the future?

 

It didn't stop something happening again after the shenanigans of the reverse takeover, then the horse trading with Wilde and Crouch and then the return of Lowe again.

 

One hopes that now we have a billionaire owner with seemingly a very strong moral and ethical background, the chances of us being surrounded by the charlatans, carpetbaggers, asset-strippers, sharks and vultures that surround the clubs in financial turmoil might be over for several year to come. Why not enjoy the ride until such times as we up for sale again, with luck, many, many years down the line.

 

Let's thank our lucky stars we resolved the situation with the best possible conclusion. And let us reflect that along the M27, the aforementioned sharks, vultures, carpetbaggers, etc, have found another potential carcass to pick on.

[ottery st mary]

It didn't stop something happening again after the shenanigans of the reverse takeover, then the horse trading with Wilde and Crouch and then the return of Lowe again.

 

One hopes that now we have a billionaire owner with seemingly a very strong moral and ethical background, the chances of us being surrounded by the charlatans, carpetbaggers, asset-strippers, sharks and vultures that surround the clubs in financial turmoil might be over for several year to come. Why not enjoy the ride until such times as we up for sale again, with luck, many, many years down the line.

 

Let's thank our lucky stars we resolved the situation with the best possible conclusion. And let us reflect that along the M27, the aforementioned sharks, vultures, carpetbaggers, etc, have found another potential carcass to pick on.

 

Well said ..Top man.. OR should I say...Hear, Hear or Here, Here.

 

A certain faction want to prolong some sort of investigation.....If only they showed the same enthusiasm regarding the reverse takeover and the days and months leading up to the big cheques and being put into Administration.

Funny that....

 

Like You most want to move on and support the side and move up the table.[-o

[Foxstone]

It didn't stop something happening again after the shenanigans of the reverse takeover, then the horse trading with Wilde and Crouch and then the return of Lowe again.

 

One hopes that now we have a billionaire owner with seemingly a very strong moral and ethical background, the chances of us being surrounded by the charlatans, carpetbaggers, asset-strippers, sharks and vultures that surround the clubs in financial turmoil might be over for several year to come. Why not enjoy the ride until such times as we up for sale again, with luck, many, many years down the line.

 

Let's thank our lucky stars we resolved the situation with the best possible conclusion. And let us reflect that along the M27, the aforementioned sharks, vultures, carpetbaggers, etc, have found another potential carcass to pick on.

 

Hear Hear !

 

I have hated the phrase " We have got our club back" ever since the blithering idiot Wilde first uttered it - But at this moment under ML's and NC's stewarship, it all of a sudden sounds right!

[Redondo Saint]

to reduce the chances of something similar happening again in the future?

 

You think this forum is going to change international business practices?

 

Providing no laws were broken by those involved, there is nothing that will change.

 

The admiinistrators need to make a better job of verifying potential buyers funds- not just once at the first round but continually throughout the process - now there is a major lesson for all budding young administrators...

[Nineteen Canteen]

FF thinks that Leon Crouch is the saviour of SFC, do you agree with this???

 

Does he??? It didn't turn out that way and neither did it ever look likely as so often it's proved throwing money at a problem is not always the answer.

[Weston Saint]

Does he??? It didn't turn out that way and neither did it ever look likely as so often it's proved throwing money at a problem is not always the answer.

Crouch can be blamed for many things connected with SFC. He can also be praised for other. I consider Crouch comes out neutral in the history of SFC blame.

 

I spoke to Mike Richards a few weeks back. He believes Crouch money following Administration probably saved us from liquidation. If he is saying that it is probably close to the truth.

[eurosaint]

Does he??? It didn't turn out that way and neither did it ever look likely as so often it's proved throwing money at a problem is not always the answer.

 

I think you'll find that he does (maybe it's best that he confirms it though?) but my point to you is that you have slated Crouch endlessly whereas FF seems to be friendly with him and generally defends his position !

How you can say that you and FF are in complete agreement is beyond me !!!

[Nineteen Canteen]

So how do you intend to find out? Are you going to stalk them until you get an answer? No, that would be bizarre. How about just writing to them and asking them? Take it to an investigative journalist and pay him to do some digging?

 

And whilst you are at it and in the interest of consistency, why don't you investigate the circumstances of another couple of matters, the 10 points deduction and find out why we didn't go for administration before the deadline. What made Lowe so sure that he could bamboozle the FL into accepting that the club and the PLC were not one and the same? Also why the Fry at Barclays pulled the plug on us and then by a huge coincidence turned up working for the very people who were our administrators.

 

As far as I can see, you are not going to get the answers you want, so why not accept that and move on?

 

One sure fire way to make sure the truth is never known is to roll over and forget about it as you suggest whilst people remain unaccountable for their actions. And I mean people from the those involved in the -10pts timing through to those involved with Pinnacle. We can't hang one person out to dry and try to cover up the shortcomings of another based on past reputations and IMO everyone should have 'their day in court' so to speak.

 

I agree Wes it is unlikely I and others will get the answers we would like but that won't stop the questions either. I don't have the contacts to do us you suggest but I hope one day someone like Duncan Holley will put pen to paper if nothing more than to document the events of the past 4 years. As a historian he is surely interested in the events that helped shape the present and its a book many would read if only to piece all the snippets together and probably minus the real story behind the story.

 

I am fully behind the new regime and hopeful about our future whilst remaining realistic. Saying that I remain hopeful that those who have IMO hampered our recovery post administration are bought to bear along with the questions you ask about the timing, although Lowe or whoever it would have been had a mountain climb this time last year and one some fans did their best to ensure they contributed to that failure by vowing not to attend home matches along with the far more valid reasons of economic decline.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I think you'll find that he does (maybe it's best that he confirms it though?) but my point to you is that you have slated Crouch endlessly whereas FF seems to be friendly with him and generally defends his position !

How you can say that you and FF are in complete agreement is beyond me !!!

 

We seem to be in complete agreement on the MLT issue although i can only talk about my observations whereas FF was far closer to proceedings. I doubt any two posters on this forum are in complete agreement on all things Saints and life as we know it and I think you are deliberately trying to take out of context a statement that was fairly reasonable and easily understood in a silly attempt to undermine and ridicule me personally. Carry on.

[Verbal]

They never got their PL approval, but now ask yourself one question...

 

No, actually better not, but it could be a small piece of the jigsaw

 

goodnight

 

This has got lost in the headlong rush of this thread, but seems important. Who are you talking about? And how did it, as Weston suggests, help drive the club into admin?

 

Are these the deals done by Lee Hoos? Or before?

[Wes Tender]

One sure fire way to make sure the truth is never known is to roll over and forget about it as you suggest whilst people remain unaccountable for their actions. And I mean people from the those involved in the -10pts timing through to those involved with Pinnacle. We can't hang one person out to dry and try to cover up the shortcomings of another based on past reputations and IMO everyone should have 'their day in court' so to speak.

 

I agree Wes it is unlikely I and others will get the answers we would like but that won't stop the questions either. I don't have the contacts to do us you suggest but I hope one day someone like Duncan Holley will put pen to paper if nothing more than to document the events of the past 4 years. As a historian he is surely interested in the events that helped shape the present and its a book many would read if only to piece all the snippets together and probably minus the real story behind the story.

 

I am fully behind the new regime and hopeful about our future whilst remaining realistic. Saying that I remain hopeful that those who have IMO hampered our recovery post administration are bought to bear along with the questions you ask about the timing, although Lowe or whoever it would have been had a mountain climb this time last year and one some fans did their best to ensure they contributed to that failure by vowing not to attend home matches along with the far more valid reasons of economic decline.

 

I don't disagree with what you say, Nineteen, especially if the brief is widened to include other parties who might be implicated at other times over the past three or four years.

 

As you say, if Duncan can find out anything that throws light on these episodes, it would make interesting reading in the future. But many here are just content at the moment that those times are past and are happy to rejoice in our salvation rather than spend too much time agonising over what might have been.

[dubai_phil]

I don't disagree with what you say, Nineteen, especially if the brief is widened to include other parties who might be implicated at other times over the past three or four years.

 

As you say, if Duncan can find out anything that throws light on these episodes, it would make interesting reading in the future. But many here are just content at the moment that those times are past and are happy to rejoice in our salvation rather than spend too much time agonising over what might have been.

 

Wes, you are actually completely right and it is time to move on, I wasn't asking the general questions in a witch hunt format, but using them to seek to undertsand how the inheritance that ML acquired has impacted on what choices they have to make today

 

The problem is that because the story may not get told in full, it will keep resurfacing. We will get snippets and sudden discoveries in rants about players and performances. FFS today I see in one thread that we were going to appoint Tony Pulis that's why we got his son... The Trusth and reconciliation approach will put an end to that sort of stuff

 

The great example is the reverse takeover. It sits in our past like a zit waiting to be squeezed every few months.

 

Going back to my OP, my motivation in saying that the WHOLE story should be told is because the situation that ML & NC walked into on day one of the new regime was set by what happened.

 

The facts that faced them on day one will without any shadow of a doubt have been a vital part of how they plan to rebuild this club.

Holistically there are so many things that affected how the new plan was produced.

 

We all opine about what signings we ned how fast and when, but the story may help us understand more about why decisions are being done in certain ways...

 

So, those making such a big issue out of one moment, or one person keep on and on and will do all season and next unless the truth is told.

 

My wish is that it is all done sensibly, in one go. MLT's travails will be but a paragraph in a substantial tome.

 

I think the club was in a much worse mess than any of us thought, too much had been stripped from the cupboard of experience and knowledge for 3 people to repair in 6 weeks

[Daren W]

Thanks Darren for a useful contribution to the debate.

 

Kindly keep your (apparently valid) vendetta to other threads if you would be so kind

 

Phil, with the greatest respect... I'm not the one with the vendetta, 19C is.

 

I totally agree with you that the truth about all of the contributing factors to our current mess. We need to know the truth but can you PLEASE explain to me how it is that 19C is all over Le Tiss like a rash and yet is when it comes to Lowe he says nothing. He said nothing.

 

If he'd been as cute to criticise Lowe I could take his criticism of Matt but like so many posters on here he kept quiet whilst one party ****ed up and yet was very vocal when another did. Crouch messes up he's all over it like a rash. Lowe ****s up... not a peep.

 

Now you have a very valid point here, we do deserve to hear the truth about ceratin **** up but do we need to? Unless we never suspected something or it's news, why rake up old ground, reopen old wounds?

 

Maybe it's just me but I feel that Le Tissier is being pilloried without good reason. He was picked as the figurehead for Pinnacle's bid. It appears that it's not within the grounds of possibility that Le Tissier was lied to.

 

You're asking questions Phil, so am I. I'm asking questions of posters like 19C who are all over Le Tissier, asking questions of him and yet strangely they remained silent when Lowe was quite obviously screwing up left right and centre.

 

I'm asking for some semblance of balance here, it's highly hypocritical to be all over one person's "faults" whilst ignoring someone elses...

Edited 20 August, 2009 by Daren W

[Wes Tender]

Wes, you are actually completely right and it is time to move on, I wasn't asking the general questions in a witch hunt format, but using them to seek to undertsand how the inheritance that ML acquired has impacted on what choices they have to make today

 

The problem is that because the story may not get told in full, it will keep resurfacing. We will get snippets and sudden discoveries in rants about players and performances. FFS today I see in one thread that we were going to appoint Tony Pulis that's why we got his son... The Trusth and reconciliation approach will put an end to that sort of stuff

 

The great example is the reverse takeover. It sits in our past like a zit waiting to be squeezed every few months.

 

Going back to my OP, my motivation in saying that the WHOLE story should be told is because the situation that ML & NC walked into on day one of the new regime was set by what happened.

 

The facts that faced them on day one will without any shadow of a doubt have been a vital part of how they plan to rebuild this club.

Holistically there are so many things that affected how the new plan was produced.

 

We all opine about what signings we ned how fast and when, but the story may help us understand more about why decisions are being done in certain ways...

 

So, those making such a big issue out of one moment, or one person keep on and on and will do all season and next unless the truth is told.

 

My wish is that it is all done sensibly, in one go. MLT's travails will be but a paragraph in a substantial tome.

 

I think the club was in a much worse mess than any of us thought, too much had been stripped from the cupboard of experience and knowledge for 3 people to repair in 6 weeks

 

I think that to a certain extent although there is stuff that had been brought up periodically from the time of the reverse takeover, the Stoneham episode, the lack of investment at the time of Wilde, Crouch's kingmaker role, then Wilde's kingmaker role, that was all to do with the Lowe regime.

 

Will there be a desire to mention that stuff much in the future in light of the fact that everybody associated with that period in our history is gone?

 

I realise that posters like to indulge in a bit of nostalgia about players or managers that we used to have, the old stadium, what mischief they used to get up to in their youth, etc, but even if everything is revealed in all its gory detail about these events, they will still continue to be talked about from time to time, either in the context of nostalgia, or as a grim reminder of how close our beloved club came to extinction.

 

I liken this to a lengthy marriage that ran its time and ended, to be replaced by a new chapter with another partner. Does one rake over those coals from the past, or get on with one's life, looking to the future? I know that it is a good idea to have learned the lessons of mistakes that might have been made, but if one is happy where life's events took you eventually, does one like to darken the mood by looking back?

[red&white56]

Everyone blames the lack of a pre-season -but we DID have one. Wotte brought the players back two weeks earlier than other squads. But he wasted the time. They should have been on fitness training. They weren't.

 

I'm glad you mentioned this because I was thinking the very same thing. I would also like to say that our academy was supposed to be producing CCC level players and the current batch playing for us were recruited way before we hit Lge 1 - so why aren't they capable of cutting it playing at supposedly a lower level?

 

I'm moving to the position where i think the only answer is a complete clear out - there's just too much baggage with the this sqaud for it to succeed.

[OldNick]

Phil, with the greatest respect... I'm not the one with the vendetta, 19C is.

 

I totally agree with you that the truth about all of the contributing factors to our current mess. We need to know the truth but can you PLEASE explain to me how it is that 19C is all over Le Tiss like a rash and yet is when it comes to Lowe he says nothing. He said nothing.

 

If he'd been as cute to criticise Lowe I could take his criticism of Matt but like so many postsers on here he kept quiet whilst one party ****ed up and yet was very vocal when another did. Crouch messes upm he's all over it like a rash. Lowe ****s up... not a peep.

 

Now you have a very valid point here, we do deserve to hear the truth about ceratin **** up but do we need to? Unless we never suspected something or it's news, why rake up old ground, reopen old wounds?

 

Maybe it's just me but I feel that Le Tissier is being pilloried without good reason. He was picked as the figurehead for Pinnacle's bid. It appears that it's not within the grounds of possibility that Le Tissier was lied to.

 

You're asking questions Phil, so am I. I'm asking questions of posters like 19C who are all over Le Tissier, asking questions of him and yet strangely they remained silent when Lowe was quite obviously screwing up left right and centre.

 

I'm asking for some semblance of balance here, it's highly hypocritical to be all over one person's "faults" whilst ignoring someone elses...

Fair comment we all need to be even handed.

I myself would like the true facts to come out as then it is over with. The name RL immedialtely gets the blood rushing with some and they become blinded to his pros as well as his negatives. The same for LM LC and many others in our past.

I more than aything would like to know the exact truth and goings on before we were put into admin. There are some major skeletons that would come out of the cupboard if the truth could be ever published.I dont know where the axe would fall but i believe it may not be where most think it would.

This site is much slower now the beast has gone, and now it has turned to talking football much of the debate is dull.

The only exciement is when you and NC get going, Lol

[OldNick]

I'm glad you mentioned this because I was thinking the very same thing. I would also like to say that our academy was supposed to be producing CCC level players and the current batch playing for us were recruited way before we hit Lge 1 - so why aren't they capable of cutting it playing at supposedly a lower level?

 

I'm moving to the position where i think the only answer is a complete clear out - there's just too much baggage with the this sqaud for it to succeed.

watching the 1st team play under Stewart Henderson I can see why there is nobody coming through.That may be unfair criticism but i was very unimpressed seeing what he did in pre season

[krissyboy31]

watching the 1st team play under Stewart Henderson I can see why there is nobody coming through.That may be unfair criticism but i was very unimpressed seeing what he did in pre season

 

Sadly, that is how I also saw it!!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

FF thinks that Leon Crouch is the saviour of SFC, do you agree with this???

 

EuroSaint - I have to correct you here - I simply preferred Crouch to Lowe and Wilde - there is a significant difference there.

 

I am happy that none of them are involved any more.

 

Out of all of them Leon did at least put his money where his mouth is.

[eurosaint]

We seem to be in complete agreement on the MLT issue although i can only talk about my observations whereas FF was far closer to proceedings. I doubt any two posters on this forum are in complete agreement on all things Saints and life as we know it and I think you are deliberately trying to take out of context a statement that was fairly reasonable and easily understood in a silly attempt to undermine and ridicule me personally. Carry on.

 

There is no need for me to do that, you do a wonderful job all on your own !!!

[trousers]

This has got lost in the headlong rush of this thread, but seems important. Who are you talking about? And how did it, as Weston suggests, help drive the club into admin?

 

Are these the deals done by Lee Hoos? Or before?

 

Bump

[trousers]

One sure fire way to make sure the truth is never known is to roll over and forget about it as you suggest whilst people remain unaccountable for their actions.

 

Statement of the day.