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Belgium GP

Thedelldays

By Thedelldays,
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Andy_Porter

Andy_Porter

Posted
Posted

You have to see it really, the "advantage" was gained from going into the escape lane to avoid a collision. He then slowed down to let Raikkonen pass and then over took him on the next corner.

 

Stinks of the FIA trying to make the title race closer and trying to make the sport more marketable. Terrible decision imo after what was a superb grand prix.

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted

Ok, I've done a bit of research and there is a precedent for this kind of action. In 2005, at Suzuka, Lap 7, Alonso cut a chicane and overtook Christian Klien as he did so. He immediately let Klien back past before nailing him at the next corner, just as Hamilton did with Raikkonen today. A few laps later, lap 12 I believe, Renault had word from the stewards that there hadn't been a full corner between relinquishing and retaking the position so Alonso was told by radio to slow and let Klien back in front. A few corners later he overtook him again and all was well.

 

I guess there was insufficient time for Hamilton to undo his overtake at La Source as Raikkonen spun out (if there'd even been a decision made before the end of the race) but technically speaking Hamilton didn't allow a full corner to pass before moving to overtake Raikkonen once more.

 

That's just the rules as I can make them out but in this instance I don't see how the penalty is fair. Perhaps if Kimi had finished 2nd then I could have accepted a reversal of positions but considering he didn't finish at all I don't see how the result was affected.

 

Just my 2p.

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Flyer

Flyer

Posted
Posted
Ok, I've done a bit of research and there is a precedent for this kind of action. In 2005, at Suzuka, Lap 7, Alonso cut a chicane and overtook Christian Klien as he did so. He immediately let Klien back past before nailing him at the next corner, just as Hamilton did with Raikkonen today. A few laps later, lap 12 I believe, Renault had word from the stewards that there hadn't been a full corner between relinquishing and retaking the position so Alonso was told by radio to slow and let Klien back in front. A few corners later he overtook him again and all was well.

 

I guess there was insufficient time for Hamilton to undo his overtake at La Source as Raikkonen spun out (if there'd even been a decision made before the end of the race) but technically speaking Hamilton didn't allow a full corner to pass before moving to overtake Raikkonen once more.

 

That's just the rules as I can make them out but in this instance I don't see how the penalty is fair. Perhaps if Kimi had finished 2nd then I could have accepted a reversal of positions but considering he didn't finish at all I don't see how the result was affected.

 

Just my 2p.

The stewards missed Alonso letting him by the 1st time and told him to let him by the 2nd time, they only realised the mistake after he was let by the 2nd time.

 

Every time someone cuts a chicane, they have to let the other driver in front, unless of course its the Ferrari cutting the chicane.

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted
The stewards missed Alonso letting him by the 1st time and told him to let him by the 2nd time, they only realised the mistake after he was let by the 2nd time.

 

That sounds like something James Allen would say. 5 laps is plenty of time for Renault to have shown the footage of the 1st overtake to the stewards were it as simple as that.

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St Landrew

St Landrew

Posted
Posted
I suppose that if I called Hamilton a ****y over confident cheating tw*t I would be considred a racist but I do not care. I am so tired of him and his attitude.

The 'nobody ever overtakes me' attitude makes me want to puke!

 

What he said was... nobody ever overtakes me on the outside. Not quite the same thing. Frankly, I don't what's making your blood boil..? He's a bloody good driver, possibly, or even probably the best currently out there in an F1 car, and he's a winner. Or would you rather he was another jolly good British loser..?

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St Landrew

St Landrew

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Posted
A point highlighted on Planet F1. No-one battered an eyelid when Kimi overtook Lewis whilst avoiding the recovering Williams UNDER YELLOW FLAGS.

 

I hate F1 at the moment.

 

Nice one. Send that reminder to McLaren. Though I doubt it would do much good. I suspect there is a hidden ruling somewhere which suggests that if any arbitrary Non-Ferrari sourced appeal is made, it should have been handed in 5 minutes before it actually was to be valid.

 

I've suspected for many years that the dice have been loaded in Ferrari's favour. This doesn't disuade me from thinking that way. I share your opinion of F1.

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted

Christ, it's obvious the FIA are weighted in Ferrari's favour. There's been much made of Ferrari's power advantage over the Renault engine this year. They have made some big developments in the name of reliability and gained about 30bhp. I'm reliably informed that Renault recently submitted a request to the other teams and the FIA to make identical developments and despite the other teams voting 7 to 2 for them to be allowed to make the change the FIA refused. I don't think it's strange that the two teams to vote against were STR and Force India. I wonder where they get their powerplants...

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St Landrew

St Landrew

Posted
Posted (edited)
Is the asterixed word 'blacky?'

 

I suspect it's just kocky*..! Personally, I find him a tad arrogant. But he can carry it off because he's one of the best, if not the best. For a racing driver I think a trace of arrogance is better than any timidity.

 

*the only way I've found to spell the word without it being filtered.

Edited by St Landrew
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Saint Paul C

Saint Paul C

Posted
Posted (edited)

What a ****ing joke F1 has become. I went to bed happy last night (in Auz) after watching Lewis DESERVEDLY win the race - only to see that he's now been stripped because Kimi pushed him off the track...

 

F1 is a disgrace at the mo - the racism towards Lewis is blatant IMHO

 

:mad:

 

Petition objecting to the ruling of the stewards...

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

Edited by Saint Paul C
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Arizona

Arizona

Posted
Posted

The penalty is a complete joke.

 

One more point, which I haven't seen mentioned yet. Kimi did pass Hamilton later on in the lap, when they were following the Williams and Lewis ended up on the grass. Irespective of the yellow flags, surely Kimi has now retaken the lead and ANY advantage gained has been reversed.

 

Kimi would have kept the lead and won the race, had he not done a 360 at the very next corner, then crashed before the end of the lap.

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St Landrew

St Landrew

Posted
Posted
The penalty is a complete joke.

 

One more point, which I haven't seen mentioned yet. Kimi did pass Hamilton later on in the lap, when they were following the Williams and Lewis ended up on the grass. Irespective of the yellow flags, surely Kimi has now retaken the lead and ANY advantage gained has been reversed.

 

Kimi would have kept the lead and won the race, had he not done a 360 at the very next corner, then crashed before the end of the lap.

 

Indeed. I have two emotions on this. One of extreme annoyance on behalf of fair play, wherever it is hiding out nowadays, Hamilton, and McLaren. And the other is contemptous humour directed towards the F1 rule makers, if they think they have manufactured a just cause that denies a perfectly good win from a perfectly fair bit of driving from the very driver who they penalised, which ended up rewarding two drivers who who hadn't a hope in hell of catching the race winner, and exposed the bloke who smashed his race car into a wall, as a driver who can't do his job when the going gets really tough, and looks for excuses for his failure.

 

Ah well. Back to MotoGP.

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Saint Paul C

Saint Paul C

Posted
Posted (edited)

Spot the difference:

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM

No penalty.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5WsM8MRvHk

No penalties.

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=74TZngbIS9I

25 second penalty.

 

Fair?

 

This video makes it EVEN clearer that Lewis allowed Kimi back in front before they approached the 1st corner

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

 

and this one sums it all up nicely IMHO

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0

Edited by Saint Paul C
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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
Ok, I've done a bit of research and there is a precedent for this kind of action. In 2005, at Suzuka, Lap 7, Alonso cut a chicane and overtook Christian Klien as he did so. He immediately let Klien back past before nailing him at the next corner, just as Hamilton did with Raikkonen today. A few laps later, lap 12 I believe, Renault had word from the stewards that there hadn't been a full corner between relinquishing and retaking the position so Alonso was told by radio to slow and let Klien back in front. A few corners later he overtook him again and all was well.

 

I guess there was insufficient time for Hamilton to undo his overtake at La Source as Raikkonen spun out (if there'd even been a decision made before the end of the race) but technically speaking Hamilton didn't allow a full corner to pass before moving to overtake Raikkonen once more.

 

That's just the rules as I can make them out but in this instance I don't see how the penalty is fair. Perhaps if Kimi had finished 2nd then I could have accepted a reversal of positions but considering he didn't finish at all I don't see how the result was affected.

 

Just my 2p.

In which case surely all that LH needs to do is as follows; after out-qualifying Kimi at Monza, he should let him past at the first corner at the start of the race, than wait until the third corner to go back past him. :)

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WestSaint

WestSaint

Posted
Posted

There are may complaints that F1 is boring and that races can tend to be a procession.

 

Yesterday , Hamilton shows that he wanted to do more than just sit back and take the points for second place- He made the race exciting

but gets penalised for it and Massa is given 1st Place

 

If you want to keep the interest up in the sport, then you are going to have to let the racers race. There may be minor infringments, but I don't think this was one of them and the penalty was very harsh.

 

I think the decision has a negative effect on the sport as a whole.

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted
this is **** by the stewards. Yet more proof that they are so far up Ferrari's arse its unbelievable!!! They let massa and his pit lane **** up go un punished yet Hamilton does...well...nothing and he gets hammered!!!

I agree it does seem unfair, and I've seen plenty of first-hand evidence that would lead anyone to suggest that the FIA is Ferrari biased, but in this one instance there is actually a precedent (as I mentioned above) and it's generally accepted that the driver in Lewis's position should relinquish the lead for a full corner before reattempting to overtake.

 

What particularly sucks for Lewis is that Kimi binned it and didn't finish anyway so wasn't going to benefit from any strict adherence to a flimsily written rule post-race.

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Arizona

Arizona

Posted
Posted
I agree it does seem unfair, and I've seen plenty of first-hand evidence that would lead anyone to suggest that the FIA is Ferrari biased, but in this one instance there is actually a precedent (as I mentioned above) and it's generally accepted that the driver in Lewis's position should relinquish the lead for a full corner before reattempting to overtake.

 

What particularly sucks for Lewis is that Kimi binned it and didn't finish anyway so wasn't going to benefit from any strict adherence to a flimsily written rule post-race.

 

Yes, but in that instance Alonso was repassed later on in the race, as Lewis was when they were lapping the Williams half a lap later. Alonso wasn't penalised after the race, so surely Hamilton shouldn't either.

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted
Yes, but in that instance Alonso was repassed later on in the race, as Lewis was when they were lapping the Williams half a lap later. Alonso wasn't penalised after the race, so surely Hamilton shouldn't either.

 

I can only guess, and it really is only a guess, that the stewards didn't count that as relinquishing the place.... Ah, **** it, I don't know.

 

One thing I do know is that McLaren specifically asked Charlie Whiting (the race director) if the earlier allowance by Hamilton of Kimi to overtake was within the rules and he said it was. Ron Dennis made it very clear that it was only Whiting's opinion and not the final decision of the stewards, but it's quite odd that the appeal against the move was then submitted by Whiting himself.

 

I don't know whether he did that off his own back or because Ferrari asked him to but basically teams are not allowed to approach the stewards to request penalties any more. The last example of a team being allowed to make a complaint was when Ferrari asked for Alonso to be penalised for 'blocking' Massa (at Monza I think) in 2006. Alonso was hundreds of meters ahead and the decision caused such a stink in the paddock that all teams were banned from approaching the stewards again.

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Sheaf Saint

Sheaf Saint

Posted
Posted
The last example of a team being allowed to make a complaint was when Ferrari asked for Alonso to be penalised for 'blocking' Massa (at Monza I think) in 2006. Alonso was hundreds of meters ahead and the decision caused such a stink in the paddock that all teams were banned from approaching the stewards again.

 

Now that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Ferrari are the F1 equivalent of John Macenroe when it comes to complaining about official decisions. They are the most unsporting ****ers F1 has ever seen and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out they were behind this decision. What's even less surprising is that the FIA obliged them.

 

Is there some law in the F1 rulebook that the FIA must uphold any complaint if it is made from an italian team with a red car?

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sotonianproud

sotonianproud

Posted
Posted

Niki Lauda talking about the incident on 5 Live ...

 

 

 

Former world champion Niki Lauda has blasted the Belgian Grand Prix stewards' decision to penalise Lewis Hamilton as a 'stupid' verdict that will make fans turn away from the sport.

 

 

Hamilton won the Spa race on the road after a frantic late dice with Kimi Raikkonen, but was given a 25 second penalty for cutting the Bus Stop chicane during their battle - even though he immediately let the Ferrari back through.

 

 

Lauda, who won titles for both Ferrari and McLaren, admitted that the officials' actions left him baffled and frustrated.

 

 

"I do not understand this completely wrong decision," he told BBC Radio Five Live.

 

 

 

 

"Everything was explained perfectly: Lewis had an advantage, but then he let him go by, then he simply out-braked him into the corner.

 

 

"There was no slipstreaming involved, nothing.

 

 

"Just think about it: If Lewis had stayed behind Kimi through the chicane, he would have passed him in front of the pits, because Lewis and the McLaren, at that time in the race in the wet, were so much quicker.

 

 

"So I do not understand this decision, and it's really bad for the sport because people watching will not watch any more because of this stupid decision."

 

 

The Austrian legend said that Hamilton's penalty made him start to believe suggestions that the authorities favoured Ferrari.

 

 

"In the past, there have always been rumours and stories - and I've always been completely against them because they've never been proven - that Ferrari, because of its past and history, was always against McLaren with the stewards and the FIA, who if there was a decision, were in favour of Ferrari," said Lauda.

 

 

"I've always said this is bulls**t, that this is a sport and you have to be neutral, but the decision yesterday makes me believe that everyone is watching Ferrari in a positive way and McLaren in a very negative way.

 

 

"What developed yesterday is the biggest mess the sport has ever done."

 

 

Lauda reckons that the events of Spa underline the need for permanent race stewards who attend every GP.

 

 

"I think the first thing that should happen is to try to train stewards of the meeting to understand the sport and the issues that drivers need to know," he said.

 

 

"If you change them all the time, then new people are coming in who don't seem to have a clue."

 

 

He believes the stewards misinterpreted Hamilton's actions and thought he had placed his McLaren advantageously when letting Raikkonen back through.

 

 

"They understood the rules, but they thought that the slipstream was the advantage and that Lewis did not lift enough," said Lauda.

 

 

"This is completely wrong: there was no slipstream involved.

 

 

"He tried to pass on the left but Kimi moved over, then he passed on the right because he braked later - without any slipstream.

 

 

"It's unbelievable how the best driver in yesterday's race makes no mistakes and only gets six points."

 

 

 

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=43875

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Ponty

Ponty

Posted
Posted

Kimi's take on the situation. Fair play to the bloke...

 

In a sensational turnaround, a flash from La Gazzetta dello Sport quotes defending World Champion Kimi Raikkonen as being prepared to testify on behalf of arch rival Lewis Hamilton at the FIA hearing that will result from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes' protest of the penalty imposed on Hamilton after the Belgian Grand Prix. "I don't care what the stewards said, as far as I was concerned, Hamilton let me by as we passed the pits", said Raikkonen in Geneva today. "I got ahead, I tried to defend the position and the race was on again. My car was for sure very difficult on the prime tyres in the rain and Lewis got by me into the hairpin. That was that."

 

Raikkonen went on, "For sure, I don't like to lose but I don't like to win through stupid decisions. People say I have lost the love (for F1) but yesterday I showed that second was not what I wanted. There are five races to go and I plan to win them all. I'm not the sort to give up that easily."

 

Asked if he was prepared to testify to that effect if the McLaren protest goes to the FIA, Raikkonen simply said, "Yes, why not."

 

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali declined to comment on Raikkonen's statement but technical director Aldo Costa admitted the Scuderia was not pleased. "Our driver has a view but the team believes the stewards and the FIA have all the information they need. We will be talking to our driver during the week," Costa told Gazzetta dello Sport.

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