Pinnacle - genuine or bogus?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

So the reason the new management team have an uphill struggle has nowt to do with 5 years association with Rupert Lowe, Mike Wilde, Leon Crouch, Jan Poortvillet, George Burley, hell, even Guy Askham; its actually all to do with 3 weeks talking to big, bad evil Pinnacle...

 

Riiight....

 

You can have your opinion for the sake of it if you wish - it doesnt stop it being completel b*ll*cks, however.

 

Oh dear! You really are an argumentative *** of the highest order!

 

Do you think I'm naive enough to think that Pinnacle are the crux of the whole thing?

 

Of course it's a whole hell of a lot to do with the previous people at the club. Almost six years of it! You are, perhaps, naive in thinking that I'd think otherwise.

 

And thank you for being so magnanamous in allowing me to have my opinion, it's so kind of you.

[Joensuu]

Thank you Duncan, this was new information to me.

 

Those arguing that we should no longer be discussing this - why ever not? Yes a 'clean break' has been made... and yes there are new faces in charge... but surely any peice of Saints history is open to discussion on a Saints forum? Are you suggesting that words such as 'Monkou', 'Svensson' or even 'MLT' should also be banned as part of 'wiping the slate clean'? Or is it just words such as 'Pinnacle', and more specifically 'Lowe' that you want to purge?

[Graffito]

FF, in the light of some bizarre comments this afternoon by one particular poster I wanted to redress my omission in an earlier post (to which you responded) to convey my thanks for your very informative post about a period in the clubs recent history of great interest to me and, I believe, other Saints fans.

[chrisobee]

Thank you Duncan, this was new information to me.

 

Those arguing that we should no longer be discussing this - why ever not? Yes a 'clean break' has been made... and yes there are new faces in charge... but surely any peice of Saints history is open to discussion on a Saints forum? Are you suggesting that words such as 'Monkou', 'Svensson' or even 'MLT' should also be banned as part of 'wiping the slate clean'? Or is it just words such as 'Pinnacle', and more specifically 'Lowe' that you want to purge?

 

Excellent post and thankfully the names of our great players/managers will always be a part of our history. Apologies for straying off topic slightly but with reference to a thread a while back about nobody getting free seats anymore I agree to a large extent but someone like Leon Crouch should always be welcome and albeit I doubt he'd mind paying the very least he deserves is a free seat in the Directors box whenever he wants it.

[Puddings and Monkeys]

Sorry, but the direction this site is going in simply because of the absence of real things to mewl and puke about is pathetic.

 

Does that mean you're going to **** off and never darken our door again then?

[chrisobee]

Does that mean you're going to **** off and never darken our door again then?

 

We can only but pray !

[Channon's Sideburns]

I think to be honest we did need to know more about Pinnacle.

 

FF was being questioned on here yesterday after a post he made which gave some information about the leveraged debt - and some asked him to elaborate - which he now has.

 

I can see Alps' view regarding the past, as surely we need to put all of this behind us - part of me has that little niggle that the Pinnacle debarcle was part of an evil plan a la Dr Evil...but hey he's gone hopefully never to show his face again.

 

We move on we move up.....it's a new day it's a new dawn;

 

Can we have Jan Paul Saiejs back?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

FF, in the light of some bizarre comments this afternoon by one particular poster I wanted to redress my omission in an earlier post (to which you responded) to convey my thanks for your very informative post about a period in the clubs recent history of great interest to me and, I believe, other Saints fans.

 

Thanks Graffito. I do find his comments quite irrational and unneccesarily aggressive but best ignored.

 

One day the Pinnacle chapter will be just a footnote in history but for now their presence in the early weeks of the close season will unfortunately have future ramifications for this season (and for Drew Surman) and therefore worthy I guess of some reflection and debate.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Thanks Graffito. I do find his comments quite irrational and unneccesarily aggressive but best ignored.

 

One day the Pinnacle chapter will be just a footnote in history but for now their presence in the early weeks of the close season will unfortunately have future ramifications for this season (and for Drew Surman) and therefore worthy I guess of some reflection and debate.

 

Indeed, if ML had been installed that 4 weeks earlier then Drew may not have moved on? It would be right to say that none of us really know why he moved but, taking his previous comments at face value, he had always expressed a desire to play a part in the recovery of the club. I have a hunch that he moved because he knew the money might prolong the club's life and that he at least had a say in where he went rather than being sold to just anybody.

 

I really don't expect us to 'buy this division', all I really aspire to is having a stable settled team ready to mount a push next season.

 

From what you are telling us Duncan I think that we have a lot to thank ML for.

[scally]

Interestingly John, Mike told me about halfway through the exclusivity, that he had heard that they were looking to get out and that they were trying to arrange for the Swiss to buy it after they completed.

 

You have one on me then Derry, I never new of that untill FF's post today.

[derry]

Indeed, if ML had been installed that 4 weeks earlier then Drew may not have moved on? It would be right to say that none of us really know why he moved but, taking his previous comments at face value, he had always expressed a desire to play a part in the recovery of the club. I have a hunch that he moved because he knew the money might prolong the club's life and that he at least had a say in where he went rather than being sold to just anybody.

 

I really don't expect us to 'buy this division', all I really aspire to is having a stable settled team ready to mount a push next season.

 

From what you are telling us Duncan I think that we have a lot to thank ML for.

 

I think the club indicated they needed him to move so that they could keep going.

[derry]

You have one on me then Derry, I never new of that untill FF's post today.

 

I think Paul and Tony were there as well.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I think the club indicated they needed him to move so that they could keep going.

 

Thanks Derry. I wonder if Drew was totally happy with having to move then?

[alpine_saint]

Thanks Graffito. I do find his comments quite irrational and unneccesarily aggressive but best ignored.

 

One day the Pinnacle chapter will be just a footnote in history but for now their presence in the early weeks of the close season will unfortunately have future ramifications for this season (and for Drew Surman) and therefore worthy I guess of some reflection and debate.

 

And what is the rationality behind you continuing to flog this particular dead horse ? Calling my comments irrational is a bit rich.

 

Tell me something, do you REALLY think that somehow we would have had increased chances of doing anything other than consolidating this season IF the Swiss deal had gone through a month earlier or if Pinnacle had turned out to be genuine ? And the basis of this contention is that Drew Surman would have stayed ?

 

That's it ? Surman would have delivered promotion or a play off place ??

 

Barking.....

[derry]

Thanks Derry. I wonder if Drew was totally happy with having to move then?

 

I don't think it was his decision to go, I understand he might not have gone but understood the situation, fair play to him.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I don't think it was his decision to go, I understand he might not have gone but understood the situation, fair play to him.

 

Exactly my thoughts. Looks like we lost a player and gained a club.

[hugh]

Thankyou Duncan for a very interesting, revealing and well written exposé.

 

Confirms uneasy feelings that most had, when that strange unveiling of the so called "money man" took place.

[SP Saint]

Can't help but feel you're flogging a dead horse here Duncan.

 

Pinnacle were clearly flawed bidders as was Marc Jackson, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all. They wasted valuable time but it's now all in the past.

 

Looking forward I think we should be more concerned to see how much money SFC's new owner is wiling to invest in taking us forward.

[beatlesaint]

Tell me something, do you REALLY think that somehow we would have had increased chances of doing anything other than consolidating this season IF the Swiss deal had gone through a month earlier or if Pinnacle had turned out to be genuine ? And the basis of this contention is that Drew Surman would have stayed ?

 

That's it ? Surman would have delivered promotion or a play off place ??

 

Barking.....

 

Are you really that blinkered and short sighted alpine ?

 

I think the general opinion is that if the Swiss deal had gone through a month earlier AP would have been appointed much sooner, he would have had the full pre-season with the players and would have had more time and opportuinty to bring in new players.

 

Wonder how many players AP would have been interested in got fixed up with clubs between 1 July and AP's appointment ?

 

Nobody in their right mind is suggesting Surman is the difference between consolidation and a play off place..............only you

[Saint Charlie]

To be fair, Surman was always going to leave this summer, just like Delph will leave Leeds, Shelvey will leave Charlton and DMG also left us. They need to move their careers on.

[Weston Saint]

Drew Surman was sold to Wolves to help pay the wages. He was under contract with Saints and happy to stay and help them gain promotion but understood the reason for having to move on. To sign for a Premier club cannot be bad for him though

[Saint Charlie]

Drew Surman was sold to Wolves to help pay the wages. He was under contract with Saints and happy to stay and help them gain promotion but understood the reason for having to move on. To sign for a Premier club cannot be bad for him though

 

 

Certainly not and I am sure he would have signed for them even if we had been financially stable. Perhaps we would have got a slightly higher fee for him in different circumstances but he has deserved the chance to leave in order to play at a higher level.

[speculator]

Pinnacle's ill-fated attempt to buy SFC - which included the period of exclusivity granted to them - simply delayed the arrival of Markus Liebherr by about 6 weeks and that lost period of time looks like it could cost us any realistic chance of a play off place this season.

 

Poor old AP has had so little time to prepare, appoint staff and sign players and it is little wonder we are going into two tough matches (Millwall and Huddersfied) far from 100% prepared. That is not good news with a 10 point deficit to overcome.

 

I now understand that Pinnacle's planned purchase of us was through a system known as leveraged debt. ie "the use of debt to supplement investment which companies usually leverage to increase returns to stock, as this practice can maximise gains and losses".

 

It seems then that Pinnacle had no real funds to invest and were merely attempting to do - on a smaller scale - what the Glazers have done at United. Indeed I have also heard that already, in anticipation of taking the club over Pinnacle were already sounding out other interested parties with a view to selling the club on.

 

It is now also common knowledge that Pinnacle could not even fund the half a million which payed the staff and opened the lock to Fry granting them exclusivity and they had to rely on Leon Crouch to do the decent thing and cough up. I gather around this time Pinnacle were making all sorts of excuses as to why they couldn't come up with the half million and with LC fearing the club was about to go under did the decent thing on the promise that others would supply funds at a latter date. He was not being told the truth.

 

The public face of Pinnacle as we know is/was Tony Lynam but he was not one of the money men. They were initially named (to Fry as Alistair Dias and William Allen) but it seems fairly early on in proceedings one of them (probably Dias) melted away to leave just Allen as the "single investor", later referred to by Lynam. How genuine was Allen? Not very it seems. How much did Lynam know about Allen's real intentions? Only Lynam can answer that but I am presuming very little. I am also assuming MLT knew even less although I think MLT did speak to Allen as some of his statements to Sky on the weekend before it all went belly up, backed this up.

 

Did Fry check out Allen? Not as much as he should and it is clear in statements made by Fry after Liebherr had taken over that Fry smelt a rat during exclusivity. However Fry had done what he was asked, the staff had been paid and we were still in business. Exclusivity was allowed to run its full course and then more time granted. Quite incredible.

 

I also think Fry was anxious for Pinnacle to succed (as were us fans) because of the MLT factor. That clouded judgement.

 

We were very very lucky then that Markus Liebherr did not throw his toys out of the pram when he lost out to what was nothing more than a sham. Thank goodness he was still there when Pinnacle finally realised they could not keep up with ruse any longer. To be quite blunt Pinnacle's "tyre kicking" could have sounded the death knell for this club and we probably don't realise how dangerous their involvement was. (I gather the new owners are none too happy with Pinnacle either).

 

As it is - we will overcome the damage but we may have "lost" a season due to lack of proper preparation. I am sure ML will invest but he will do it rationally. The long term weather forecast is bright but there are a few storm clouds to come first. Had Pinnacle succeeded and purchased us with borrowed money the heavens would have opened and never shut.

 

Unfortunately Pinnacle's legacy will be with us for a good 12 months!

 

An interesting post and I would have to question the gulliability / judgement of Messrs Crouch, Le Tissier and Fry . Personally, I don't buy terms like 'not told the truth' or the 'MLT factor' as reasons for cloudy judgement. Fry in the end served his purpose but the other two had far more to lose/gain from all this and on reflection its makes their contribution look astoundingly naive or simply grave errors of judgement IMO.

 

I agree with FF's conclusion and not suprised Liebherr and his team are slightly miffed at Pinnacle's pathetic attempts (People had the audacity to criticise Jackson and Green) of a LBO. In the long term I am confident it will work out but thanks to the unnecessary delays created by Pinnacle and those that allowed them the credibility to proceed it will be a rocky start to the season and another where survival is the primary aim.

 

Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

An interesting post and I would have to question the gulliability / judgement of Messrs Crouch, Le Tissier and Fry . Personally, I don't buy terms like 'not told the truth' or the 'MLT factor' as reasons for cloudy judgement. Fry in the end served his purpose but the other two had far more to lose/gain from all this and on reflection its makes their contribution look astoundingly naive or simply grave errors of judgement IMO.

 

I agree with FF's conclusion and not suprised Liebherr and his team are slightly miffed at Pinnacle's pathetic attempts (People had the audacity to criticise Jackson and Green) of a LBO. In the long term I am confident it will work out but thanks to the unnecessary delays created by Pinnacle and those that allowed them the credibility to proceed it will be a rocky start to the season and another where survival is the primary aim.

 

Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

 

Is that you Sundance?

[ottery st mary]

Is that you Sundance?

 

My judgement is obviously off....I thought it was 19..

[Toomer]

An interesting post and I would have to question the gulliability / judgement of Messrs Crouch, Le Tissier and Fry . Personally, I don't buy terms like 'not told the truth' or the 'MLT factor' as reasons for cloudy judgement. Fry in the end served his purpose but the other two had far more to lose/gain from all this and on reflection its makes their contribution look astoundingly naive or simply grave errors of judgement IMO.

 

I agree with FF's conclusion and not suprised Liebherr and his team are slightly miffed at Pinnacle's pathetic attempts (People had the audacity to criticise Jackson and Green) of a LBO. In the long term I am confident it will work out but thanks to the unnecessary delays created by Pinnacle and those that allowed them the credibility to proceed it will be a rocky start to the season and another where survival is the primary aim.

 

Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

 

I would say that is a beast of a post:)

[chrisobee]

Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

 

For my part I've never believed MLT was anything other than still a part of this club (you can't just discard our greatest players/managers involvement in the club because you may or may not believe something which you know little about) and it's pretty ridiculous speculating ( apt user name by the way) as to when he will be "welcomed back into the fold" whatever that is supposed to mean. I had thought ( stupid of me in respect of this forum I know) that this nonsense about what he may or may not have been thinking or hoped to gain by his involvement with Pinnacle was now history but of course it is a typical British mentality and not just Sotonians who love building people up just to knock them down.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post.

 

Thought AO had already spoke with MLT, in what context I do not know, however, what I do know is his contribution over the years should not in anyway be forgotten due to an error of judgement which others more equipped(professionally) than he also made.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Can't help but feel you're flogging a dead horse here Duncan.

 

Pinnacle were clearly flawed bidders as was Marc Jackson, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all. They wasted valuable time but it's now all in the past.

 

Looking forward I think we should be more concerned to see how much money SFC's new owner is wiling to invest in taking us forward.

 

Yes you are quite probably correct - but being a "historian" I have alwayd been interested in the "whys and wherefores". Even finding out why a player was sold in 1920 for instance intrigues me. Sorry I can't help it. Plenty of people get in touch with me to find out more about their long lost relations who played for Saints to make me think it is all worthwhile but I accept it is not to everyone's tastes.

[Verbal]

it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

 

You clearly know nothing about Southampton Football Club if you think MLT is going to be ostracised by anyone here.

 

One thing that does make me a little uncomfortable, FWIW, is FF's repeated criticisms of MLT on a number of earlier threads. Yes, of course, he made a mistake. But 'holier than thou' is a dangerous game to play, especially if you were one of the leading cheerleaders for 'going Wilde'. Make the point once, by all means, then move on.

 

We all make mistakes. Who doesn't? Some turn out to be serious in the long term, others less so - and we don't yet know which applies to MLT's backing of Pinnacle. But surely no one at the club is going to be so up themselves as to exclude MLT from 'the fold'.

[Johnny Bognor]

An interesting post and I would have to question the gulliability / judgement of Messrs Crouch, Le Tissier and Fry . Personally, I don't buy terms like 'not told the truth' or the 'MLT factor' as reasons for cloudy judgement. Fry in the end served his purpose but the other two had far more to lose/gain from all this and on reflection its makes their contribution look astoundingly naive or simply grave errors of judgement IMO.

 

I agree with FF's conclusion and not suprised Liebherr and his team are slightly miffed at Pinnacle's pathetic attempts (People had the audacity to criticise Jackson and Green) of a LBO. In the long term I am confident it will work out but thanks to the unnecessary delays created by Pinnacle and those that allowed them the credibility to proceed it will be a rocky start to the season and another where survival is the primary aim.

 

Crouch will hopefully move on and quickly and its pleasing to see his investment in Eastleigh and it maybe a long time before MLT is welcomed back into the fold judging by FF's post above and if you were part of the new team you could understand why that maybe the case.

 

Is that you Sundance?

 

Nope, it's defintely Nineteen Canteen.

 

:smt032:smt032:smt032:smt032:smt032

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Nope, it's defintely Nineteen Canteen.

 

:smt032:smt032:smt032:smt032:smt032

 

Who, then, is Sundance, Flashman etc. etc. etc.

 

I thought that they were all one and the same. Including 19.

[Johnny Bognor]

Who, then, is Sundance, Flashman etc. etc. etc.

 

I thought that they were all one and the same. Including 19.

 

Well, we know speculator is Nineteen Canteen (See http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14984)

 

Others have alluded to the fact that Nineteen Canteen was Sundance Beast.

 

So perhaps you were right all along

 

:smt032

Edited 2 August, 2009 by Johnny Bognor

[Gingeletiss]

They are.........

[chrisobee]

Who, then, is Sundance, Flashman etc. etc. etc.

 

I thought that they were all one and the same. Including 19.

 

Indeed I believe that is so and by definition schizophrenic which loosely is a disorder characterized by severe personality disorganization, distortion of reality, and an inability to function in daily life. Also a common delusion is that a schizophrenic may think he has a magic power or that he is God. This is a psychotic state. A psychosis affects the brain and damages it. Pretty good summation I'd say !

[Channon's Sideburns]

Indeed I believe that is so and by definition schizophrenic which loosely is a disorder characterized by severe personality disorganization, distortion of reality, and an inability to function in daily life. Also a common delusion is that a schizophrenic may think he has a magic power or that he is God. This is a psychotic state. A psychosis affects the brain and damages it. Pretty good summation I'd say !

 

Indeed..

 

Is that Phil Boyer in your avatar?

 

If my memory serves me correctly, you could never buy that kit...or a Yellow version used a few times of the Rank Xerox 'Keegan' kit......

 

I'm a bit anoraky like that..

[Fitzhugh Fella]

You clearly know nothing about Southampton Football Club if you think MLT is going to be ostracised by anyone here.

 

One thing that does make me a little uncomfortable, FWIW, is FF's repeated criticisms of MLT on a number of earlier threads. Yes, of course, he made a mistake. But 'holier than thou' is a dangerous game to play, especially if you were one of the leading cheerleaders for 'going Wilde'. Make the point once, by all means, then move on.

 

We all make mistakes. Who doesn't? Some turn out to be serious in the long term, others less so - and we don't yet know which applies to MLT's backing of Pinnacle. But surely no one at the club is going to be so up themselves as to exclude MLT from 'the fold'.

 

I am going to make this my last comment on Pinnacle.

I have had plenty of verbal threats since I went public with what I knew a few weeks ago -inc being threatened with the police and accusations of destroying the future of SFC.

 

FWIW - I think MLT to be the greatest player ever to wear the red and white stripes. I also think he is one of the most genuine blokes around who has helped me out and countless number of other causes. He is 100% a fan and there will never be anyone who will even come near him in my admiration for what he did for us and what hopefully he will continue to do. The man is an absolute footballing genius and as near a God a human can get. Hope that is clear.

 

However he should never have been asked to "lend" his name to Pinnacle. He probably agrees with that now. I wish Lynam had never proposed him - Matt's trusting and good nature was abused and that is one reason I feel bitter to Pinnacle because they put in their shop window someone who should never have been exposed to such a tacky bunch of chancers.

I wish he had been more diligent.

All the paperwork I have ever had on this is now with the Echo and Simon Carter. It may be best to let it lie or they may choose to dig deeper. It's up to them - obviously some like Alpine think it best to leave alone - others have a more inquisitive nature. Not my aisle any more. Gonna spend the next few months getting behind the new regime, frustrating though it is while things look like moving slowly.

 

We still have a club, I still have a bunch of lads to drink with on a Saturday and life goes on. (but no thanks to Pinnacle).

[chrisobee]

Indeed..

 

Is that Phil Boyer in your avatar?

 

If my memory serves me correctly, you could never buy that kit...or a Yellow version used a few times of the Rank Xerox 'Keegan' kit......

 

I'm a bit anoraky like that..

 

Lol, indeed it is the one and only Phil Boyer, perhaps does not get the recognition he deserves which is one good reason I have him as my avatar. As for the kit I haven't a clue ! Don't know much about anoraks either

[SP Saint]

Yes you are quite probably correct - but being a "historian" I have alwayd been interested in the "whys and wherefores". Even finding out why a player was sold in 1920 for instance intrigues me. Sorry I can't help it. Plenty of people get in touch with me to find out more about their long lost relations who played for Saints to make me think it is all worthwhile but I accept it is not to everyone's tastes.

 

Fair point. All grist to the mill of ITN Pt II then.

[eurosaint]

i am going to make this my last comment on pinnacle.

I have had plenty of verbal threats since i went public with what i knew a few weeks ago -inc being threatened with the police and accusations of destroying the future of sfc.

 

Fwiw - i think mlt to be the greatest player ever to wear the red and white stripes. I also think he is one of the most genuine blokes around who has helped me out and countless number of other causes. He is 100% a fan and there will never be anyone who will even come near him in my admiration for what he did for us and what hopefully he will continue to do. The man is an absolute footballing genius and as near a god a human can get. Hope that is clear.

 

However he should never have been asked to "lend" his name to pinnacle. He probably agrees with that now. I wish lynam had never proposed him - matt's trusting and good nature was abused and that is one reason i feel bitter to pinnacle because they put in their shop window someone who should never have been exposed to such a tacky bunch of chancers.

I wish he had been more diligent.

All the paperwork i have ever had on this is now with the echo and simon carter. It may be best to let it lie or they may choose to dig deeper. It's up to them - obviously some like alpine think it best to leave alone - others have a more inquisitive nature. Not my aisle any more. Gonna spend the next few months getting behind the new regime, frustrating though it is while things look like moving slowly.

 

We still have a club, i still have a bunch of lads to drink with on a saturday and life goes on. (but no thanks to pinnacle).

 

amen !

[WestSaint]

Lol, indeed it is the one and only Phil Boyer, perhaps does not get the recognition he deserves which is one good reason I have him as my avatar. As for the kit I haven't a clue ! Don't know much about anoraks either

 

I totally agree with your sentiments over Boyer. People on this forum may suggest Saga and Rasiak as being lazy but that is never an accusation that could be attached to Phil Boyer. I rarely saw him give less than 100% and although McDougall seemed to grab the headlines, imo it was Boyer who was the hardworking player alongside him . He was one of Southamptons greats in my opinion.

[dubai_phil]

Duncan

 

Sorry I couldn't change things around last week to meet up and share a beer or two.

 

Alpine is right in his own way, we do need to move on, but I think it is also important for the story to be told. While today we look forward to stabilising our club and beginning the long journey back up the leagues, these past months have without a doubt been a critical piece of our history and the story should be told.

 

Without any doubt, Pinnacle were guilty of whipping up a "PR" storm and "conning" not just MLT but most of us. FF says he had a lot of outside pressure, when I and others posted that there were stories in the City about the viability of Pinnacle's bid we were also subject to grief on here. To find out from lawyers in the City and from known creditors of the club that there were concerns was, not to put too fine a point on it - horrifying. As we ALL agreee, thank God Markus stayed active.

 

I posted a long time ago how my golf buddy (a senior VP in the local banking sector) had explained to me how easy it actually would have been for me - a broke, getting divorced ex-pat - to simply pick up 40 million of cash and buy the club to get rid of Lowe pre-admin.

 

The mechanics, once you knew which door of which type of Bank to walk through were very simple. The planet was full of idiots with money "looking for a deal" (Hicks & Gillett spring to mind).

 

The killer though was the fact that the interest on the leveraged loans would be around 3mil a year, the maths simply didn't work because the banks would want their money back one day.

 

The ONLY time anyone could argue that a leveraged buy out would have been viable was IF it was the only choice between oblivion and taking the chance to buy a few more years to survive and hope the recession ended.

 

The POINT was that when the Pinnacle PR came out, then like all Saints fans I was excited and delighted, however, to NOW find out that they had played MLT AND us with a half baked scheme that was simply a "survival" and mortgage the future deal has actually made me angry.

 

I am pretty sure that there is a lot more to be told in a historical context and I still think that Duncan's next book will be really interesting. Perhaps to avoid descending into the normal round of arguments though, perhaps it would be better to arrange them as a series of "stories" on the main forum page.

[alpine_saint]

I am going to make this my last comment on Pinnacle.

I have had plenty of verbal threats since I went public with what I knew a few weeks ago -inc being threatened with the police and accusations of destroying the future of SFC.

 

FWIW - I think MLT to be the greatest player ever to wear the red and white stripes. I also think he is one of the most genuine blokes around who has helped me out and countless number of other causes. He is 100% a fan and there will never be anyone who will even come near him in my admiration for what he did for us and what hopefully he will continue to do. The man is an absolute footballing genius and as near a God a human can get. Hope that is clear.

 

However he should never have been asked to "lend" his name to Pinnacle. He probably agrees with that now. I wish Lynam had never proposed him - Matt's trusting and good nature was abused and that is one reason I feel bitter to Pinnacle because they put in their shop window someone who should never have been exposed to such a tacky bunch of chancers.

I wish he had been more diligent.

All the paperwork I have ever had on this is now with the Echo and Simon Carter. It may be best to let it lie or they may choose to dig deeper. It's up to them - obviously some like Alpine think it best to leave alone - others have a more inquisitive nature. Not my aisle any more. Gonna spend the next few months getting behind the new regime, frustrating though it is while things look like moving slowly.

 

We still have a club, I still have a bunch of lads to drink with on a Saturday and life goes on. (but no thanks to Pinnacle).

 

Agree with most of what you wrote.

 

I genuinely think moving on is for the best, FF.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Duncan

 

Sorry I couldn't change things around last week to meet up and share a beer or two.

 

Alpine is right in his own way, we do need to move on, but I think it is also important for the story to be told. While today we look forward to stabilising our club and beginning the long journey back up the leagues, these past months have without a doubt been a critical piece of our history and the story should be told.

 

Without any doubt, Pinnacle were guilty of whipping up a "PR" storm and "conning" not just MLT but most of us. FF says he had a lot of outside pressure, when I and others posted that there were stories in the City about the viability of Pinnacle's bid we were also subject to grief on here. To find out from lawyers in the City and from known creditors of the club that there were concerns was, not to put too fine a point on it - horrifying. As we ALL agreee, thank God Markus stayed active.

 

I posted a long time ago how my golf buddy (a senior VP in the local banking sector) had explained to me how easy it actually would have been for me - a broke, getting divorced ex-pat - to simply pick up 40 million of cash and buy the club to get rid of Lowe pre-admin.

 

The mechanics, once you knew which door of which type of Bank to walk through were very simple. The planet was full of idiots with money "looking for a deal" (Hicks & Gillett spring to mind).

 

The killer though was the fact that the interest on the leveraged loans would be around 3mil a year, the maths simply didn't work because the banks would want their money back one day.

 

The ONLY time anyone could argue that a leveraged buy out would have been viable was IF it was the only choice between oblivion and taking the chance to buy a few more years to survive and hope the recession ended.

 

The POINT was that when the Pinnacle PR came out, then like all Saints fans I was excited and delighted, however, to NOW find out that they had played MLT AND us with a half baked scheme that was simply a "survival" and mortgage the future deal has actually made me angry.

 

I am pretty sure that there is a lot more to be told in a historical context and I still think that Duncan's next book will be really interesting. Perhaps to avoid descending into the normal round of arguments though, perhaps it would be better to arrange them as a series of "stories" on the main forum page.

 

Sensible sentiments Phil and ones those still interested should note. As you say you have been at the cutting edge and that should make folk take heed.

Next time you are over hopefully we'll make that beer.

[FloridaMarlin]

All the paperwork I have ever had on this is now with the Echo and Simon Carter. It may be best to let it lie or they may choose to dig deeper.

 

Complete waste of time. He wouldn't have a clue what to do with it.

 

David Conn at the Guardian would have been a better bet.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Complete waste of time. He wouldn't have a clue what to do with it.

 

David Conn at the Guardian would have been a better bet.

 

FM - a sad indictment on our local newspaper.

I know you are well connected so I respect your view but am also saddened by it.

[dubai_phil]

FM - a sad indictment on our local newspaper.

I know you are well connected so I respect your view but am also saddened by it.

 

Although I am sure Adam Leith (being a fan as well) has a number of other parts of the story, not least some of the off the record conversations he and Peter Law would have had during the whole episode....

 

Worth a nudge if it stays too quiet

[Fan The Flames]

Moving on and exploring the past isn't mutually exclusive, most German historians would agree with that. Plenty of people, myself included, are interested in the machinastions of the last few months. Now if someone could explain how going over it could damage SFC going forward I for one would park it forever, however I can't see how discussing the motives and of a couple of chancers will hurt us.

 

If we are still discussing the same thing in a years time I might agree to move on but not yet, we are only a matter of weeks away from the events.

[chrisobee]

I totally agree with your sentiments over Boyer. People on this forum may suggest Saga and Rasiak as being lazy but that is never an accusation that could be attached to Phil Boyer. I rarely saw him give less than 100% and although McDougall seemed to grab the headlines, imo it was Boyer who was the hardworking player alongside him . He was one of Southamptons greats in my opinion.

 

Indeed, Boyer and McDougall were pretty much the perfect pairing up front, another masterstroke by Lawrie Mac after Micky Channon had left before the 1977/78 season. It's clearly impossible to say if we would have been promoted anyway but for me Boyer was the perfect player for a Div 2 side and it was probably true that Micky Channon needed a change anyway. But more than that Boyer proved to be a super player in Div 1 also. Like you above all else I loved his attitude, certainly one of my all time greats both as a player and a person. A top quality professional in every sense.

[Fan The Flames]

Phil Boyer was my first school boy hero, I can remember playing football in the garden and commentating on myself and I was always Phil Boyer scoring past Man Utd.