Saints Aid - Final Accounts

[Big John]

Actually he started the thread on 26-07-2009, 09:36 AM and got zero replies until I bumped it yesterday 18 days later. We were beginning to think it must be a taboo subject :-)

 

The silence is deafening....

[OldNick]

Actually he started the thread on 26-07-2009, 09:36 AM and got zero replies until I bumped it yesterday 18 days later. We were beginning to think it must be a taboo subject :-)

I thought it was an old thread, and was surprised it was not picked up at the time.I assume we were all bathing in the warmth of our survival.Now as time has passed questions need to be asked.

Who were the main organisers and are any of them members on this site?

[Frank's cousin]

TBF (and balanced) if it was registered as a charity, they will nedd to submit the accounts for review - and certainly all those that helped in anyway they could during these dark times need thanks and should be comeneded whether by giving tehir time FOC or volunteering to collect and those who donated.

 

If because of interest or simply many fans also skint the actual totals v cost figure dont read too healthily, it should not detract from fact that folk tried to do good and help.

 

Naturally, as with all these thing some will be suspicious of motives and the politics is never far away as some seek to get mileage from anything that was not 100% succesful in their opinion. That does seem unfair, and so I can understand why some might feel its disengenuous to rake this all up. My point earlier was that thats OK if applied to ALL and in all situations, we should not be picking and chosing what is open for debate based on which personalities we support. If we are happy to give certain individuals a kicking for any small incompetence, we should be prepared to acept that others will want to do the same to those we support..... That I think is why these threads degenerate - because too many are too willing to be the first to stick in the boot when it serves tehir own purpose, but are reluctant to even discuss the potential failures of those they support...

 

So we will continue to go round...and around... and around in circles..

[Redbul]

This is not an argument Nick, this is contradiction.

 

..............................No it isn't.

 

 

 

Anyway, now that this subject has been raised, I too would like to have some indication as to where some of my hard earned went, and also some of my nipper's pocket money, even if it is just itemised in the administrator's final report.

[kpturner]

TBF (and balanced) if it was registered as a charity' date=' they will nedd to submit the accounts for review - and certainly all those that helped in anyway they could during these dark times need thanks and should be comeneded whether by giving tehir time FOC or volunteering to collect and those who donated. [/quote']

 

FWIWS I very much doubt it was a registered charity, and personally I do not suspect anything untoward with the whole thing. For me it is just like anything else that you donate too - you like to see the end result so that you don't feel that you chucked your money down the toilet. I have too many unwanted pieces of sporting memorabilia sitting around the house, purchased in an auction at some dinner (in a drunken stupor) - and the only way I can justify it to myself (and the missus) is that the money went to raise x for y.

 

So, for example, when I payed £2.50 for the umteenth time to watch my kids go round and round in a teacup I would like to know that my multiple £2.50's went to the club or some charity - contributing to a grand total of £x. At the moment, for all I know, £2.49 went into the pocket of the bloke who owned the ride and 1p disappeared into a black hole.

 

By the way, anyone want a signed MLT shirt - supposed to be the one he wore in his last ever game (slightly strange claim as it is an away shirt!)? I also have an Arsenal Champions League shirt signed by the team - I have no idea why I bought it. Any takers?

[Daren W]

" confrontational" ! What ? As in "posts stuff that doesnt fit in with some peoples thinking" ?

 

if you think his post was somehow searching for the truth or putting a point of view across that is differing from my mine then you're dimmer than I thought...

 

"what a pointless thread. A vehicle 4 the usual windbags to revel in the misfortune of others to avoid accepting the shortcomings of our recent history. I have no love at all for Pompey but our own existence would be all the poorer without the motivation to do better with them down the road and the desire to return to the old status quo . Perhaps we should at least recognise that their takeover bid has not been endorsed by one of their playing legends. Once again Daren and Wes are in the glass house being predictable.""

 

Quite how that isn't confrontational is beyond me....

 

 

As for the publishing of records, I have an awful feeling the whole event might have lost money rather than raise it. I agree the records need to be shown but let's not get a witch hunt going. The event was organised by good people with the most honest of intentions...

[kpturner]

I agree the records need to be shown but let's not get a witch hunt going. The event was organised by good people with the most honest of intentions...

It is not a witch hunt though - just a request for some info. It would be a shame if it lost money but but at least if it has I can satisfy myself that without the help of those who contributed it would have lost even more. It just seems odd that the organisers cannot provide some sort of update. Maybe they have and I don't know where to look.

[manji]

then you're dimmer than I thought.../QUOTE]

A touch confrontational dont you think ?

[Daren W]

then you're dimmer than I thought.../QUOTE]

A touch confrontational dont you think ?

 

lol Indeed it is....

[Frank's cousin]

 

As for the publishing of records, I have an awful feeling the whole event might have lost money rather than raise it. I agree the records need to be shown but let's not get a witch hunt going. The event was organised by good people with the most honest of intentions...

 

Anyone with a rational brain is not going to witch hunt - sometimes these thing do lose money - it happens and it does NOT distract from the good intentions - my point was that this rational mentality needs to be applied consistantly - eg, what would certain posters be saying in this situation had it been Lowe's cronies in on the organisation? We have enough irrational statements on 'back pockets' anyway without adding to it, but it did seem odd that when someone asked about this, it was kinda of dismissed by you as a 'no post' - its a fair question IMHO?

[OldNick]

 

The event was organised by good people with the most honest of intentions...

i think that is why most don't wish to stir the pot

[Daren W]

It is not a witch hunt though - just a request for some info. It would be a shame if it lost money but but at least if it has I can satisfy myself that without the help of those who contributed it would have lost even more. It just seems odd that the organisers cannot provide some sort of update. Maybe they have and I don't know where to look.

 

I'm not saying you are but you know how this sort of debate can mutate and become deeply unpleasant...

 

I'll get in contact with one of them and see what's what....

[westofshannonsaint]

Anyone with a rational brain is not going to witch hunt -

 

unfortunately there are quite a few posters on here with irrational brains (and small ones at that)

 

edit- and most of them are very very vocal

[The9]

a signed MLT shirt - supposed to be the one he wore in his last ever game (slightly strange claim as it is an away shirt!)? I also have an Arsenal Champions League shirt signed by the team - I have no idea why I bought it. Any takers?

 

You are right to be suspicious... this is MLT's last START for Saints (he played another 9 times as a sub after this)...

http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=294014

 

...and this is his last appearance in a competitive match, in a 2-0 win against West Ham on 30th January 2002 :http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=353195

 

Both, you'll note, are home matches.

 

In fact Le Tiss's last start in a Saints away match was in the League Cup win at Mansfield in 2000, a full 18 months before his last actual appearance. His last away appearance was for 2 minutes as sub on 19th Jan 2002 when we drew 1-1 at Liverpool, 11 days before the last home appearance.

[ooohTerryHurlock]

As an aside, what a gesture it would be if that dear older lady who was filmed paying across a few hundred quid was given her money back, the PR for the club would be great and someone whose need is now greater than the clubs benefits, it was lovely gesture by the lady and one which demonstrated the feeling some had about saving our club.

 

... or they could make her quest of honour at one of the games - roll out the red carpet and give her a good night out. Like you say great PR for the club - the media love that sort of thing!

[ooohTerryHurlock]

TBF (and balanced) if it was registered as a charity, they will nedd to submit the accounts for review - and certainly all those that helped in anyway they could during these dark times need thanks and should be comeneded whether by giving tehir time FOC or volunteering to collect and those who donated.

 

If because of interest or simply many fans also skint the actual totals v cost figure dont read too healthily, it should not detract from fact that folk tried to do good and help.

 

Naturally, as with all these thing some will be suspicious of motives and the politics is never far away as some seek to get mileage from anything that was not 100% succesful in their opinion. That does seem unfair, and so I can understand why some might feel its disengenuous to rake this all up. My point earlier was that thats OK if applied to ALL and in all situations, we should not be picking and chosing what is open for debate based on which personalities we support. If we are happy to give certain individuals a kicking for any small incompetence, we should be prepared to acept that others will want to do the same to those we support..... That I think is why these threads degenerate - because too many are too willing to be the first to stick in the boot when it serves tehir own purpose, but are reluctant to even discuss the potential failures of those they support...

 

So we will continue to go round...and around... and around in circles..

 

It is a pure and simple case of transparency - I have no hidden agenda and supported and applauded those who organised the event.... but we need to know the final accounts - if it lost money so what at least they tried and bloody hard too, but I feel those that were involved through whichever way have a right to know. simples!

 

 

..... defo no Witch Hunt! even if it lost money it helped to keep the cause in the public eye - which could only help with finding the eventual buyer. But the accounts need to be published - end of.

Edited 14 August, 2009 by ooohTerryHurlock

[derry]

Not disputed, but for those of us who supported the events it would be nice to know how much was raised and where it went - would it not?

 

It would indeed. I lent over £200 to the organisers to purchase blank CDs, cases, and a CD writer and was promised the money back within a week.

 

After chasing it up eventually Nick Illingsworth called in a month ago and told me they were waiting for the club to pay them and that he would sort it the following week.

 

That was a month ago and I am still waiting. There are questions that need answering.

[ooohTerryHurlock]

FWIWS I very much doubt it was a registered charity, and personally I do not suspect anything untoward with the whole thing. For me it is just like anything else that you donate too - you like to see the end result so that you don't feel that you chucked your money down the toilet. I have too many unwanted pieces of sporting memorabilia sitting around the house, purchased in an auction at some dinner (in a drunken stupor) - and the only way I can justify it to myself (and the missus) is that the money went to raise x for y.

 

So, for example, when I payed £2.50 for the umteenth time to watch my kids go round and round in a teacup I would like to know that my multiple £2.50's went to the club or some charity - contributing to a grand total of £x. At the moment, for all I know, £2.49 went into the pocket of the bloke who owned the ride and 1p disappeared into a black hole.

 

By the way, anyone want a signed MLT shirt - supposed to be the one he wore in his last ever game (slightly strange claim as it is an away shirt!)? I also have an Arsenal Champions League shirt signed by the team - I have no idea why I bought it. Any takers?

 

Who claimed that little fact then????

[kpturner]

Who claimed that little fact then????

One guess (yes he is a Director of Eastleigh FC) :-)

[kpturner]

... or they could make her quest of honour

LOL - up to the usual standard then mate

[kpturner]

You are right to be suspicious... this is MLT's last START for Saints (he played another 9 times as a sub after this)...

http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=294014

 

...and this is his last appearance in a competitive match, in a 2-0 win against West Ham on 30th January 2002 :http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=353195

 

Both, you'll note, are home matches.

 

In fact Le Tiss's last start in a Saints away match was in the League Cup win at Mansfield in 2000, a full 18 months before his last actual appearance. His last away appearance was for 2 minutes as sub on 19th Jan 2002 when we drew 1-1 at Liverpool, 11 days before the last home appearance.

Thanks for that. I had an offer of £150 until you posted that

[ooohTerryHurlock]

LOL - up to the usual standard then mate

 

I just (whooops!) have oversized fingers!!! :smt081

[ooohTerryHurlock]

One guess (yes he is a Director of Eastleigh FC) :-)

 

Surely we have all learnt by now!!!! :smt081

[dubai_phil]

Valid OP.

 

I think it is important that we say to the organisers - so you lost money or "so it all went to pay off someone's loans" or the organisers are enjoying their tour of SE Asia with UP. It doesn't MATTER, it was the start of the healing process for the fanbase.

 

lol at the rest of it. What is funny to us onlookers is that there are some on here who so clearly need therapy. (But of course will come back and say they have reasons for their actions)

 

I'd say more on the subject but have to go and listen to my self hypnosis CD's

[dune]

if you think his post was somehow searching for the truth or putting a point of view across that is differing from my mine then you're dimmer than I thought...

 

"what a pointless thread. A vehicle 4 the usual windbags to revel in the misfortune of others to avoid accepting the shortcomings of our recent history. I have no love at all for Pompey but our own existence would be all the poorer without the motivation to do better with them down the road and the desire to return to the old status quo . Perhaps we should at least recognise that their takeover bid has not been endorsed by one of their playing legends. Once again Daren and Wes are in the glass house being predictable.""

 

Quite how that isn't confrontational is beyond me....

 

 

As for the publishing of records, I have an awful feeling the whole event might have lost money rather than raise it. I agree the records need to be shown but let's not get a witch hunt going. The event was organised by good people with the most honest of intentions...

 

I expect the event(s) did lose money. That's a shame but those who got off their arses certainly have my respect for doing something.

 

I get the impression that certain posters will take delight in scoffing about Saints Aid making a loss, but it's not worth lowering yourself to the level of these sad individuals and giving them the attention they clearly lack in real life. These posters are the vocal minority (most Saints fans are decent people) and i'd warrant they have mental health issues because why else would they take pleasure in taking such a stance?

[St Chalet]

I'm struggling, even with my handy "see things through Daren's eyes" glasses, to see what is in the slightest bit "confrontational" there, to be honest.

 

Perhaps 19c's most reasonable post ever. To paraphrase a cricketing rule, "play the post, not the poster"

[aintforever]

I think it's perfectly valid to ask how much was made and where all the money went, while we shouldn't be overly critical of people who are just doing there best to help, they shouldn't expect everything to be kept secret as at the end of the day it was our money involved. Also if it did make a loss it would be wise to work out why in case a similar situation happens again.

 

I might be wrong but the whole Saints Aid music thing did appear a bit self indulgent to me. It almost looked like someone was looking for a reason to set up a gig, rather than looking at ways to raise dough.

[Nineteen Canteen]

I think it's perfectly valid to ask how much was made and where all the money went, while we shouldn't be overly critical of people who are just doing there best to help, they shouldn't expect everything to be kept secret as at the end of the day it was our money involved. Also if it did make a loss it would be wise to work out why in case a similar situation happens again.

 

I might be wrong but the whole Saints Aid music thing did appear a bit self indulgent to me. It almost looked like someone was looking for a reason to set up a gig, rather than looking at ways to raise dough.

 

IMO I think there was an element of what they the organisers would support as oppose to what would really generate bigger crowds to raise the funds. No one is doubting their commitment but I to suspect there may be lessons to be learned from this that need to be recorded.

 

Of all those who believe they speak for Saints fans in the media I find Nick Illingsworth the most fair and lucid of a fairly torrid bunch IMO. That said I'm sure he would have enjoyed the limelight had the event been a significant success as it allegedly appears the opposite was true he should comment accordingly and certainly act on posts such as Derry's above.

[The Rover]

It would indeed. I lent over £200 to the organisers to purchase blank CDs, cases, and a CD writer and was promised the money back within a week.

 

After chasing it up eventually Nick Illingsworth called in a month ago and told me they were waiting for the club to pay them and that he would sort it the following week.

 

That was a month ago and I am still waiting. There are questions that need answering.

 

Not my business but perhaps you'd be better targeting your questions at whoever you gave the money to than airing the issue on here?

[CB Fry]

It would indeed. I lent over £200 to the organisers to purchase blank CDs, cases, and a CD writer and was promised the money back within a week.

 

After chasing it up eventually Nick Illingsworth called in a month ago and told me they were waiting for the club to pay them and that he would sort it the following week.

 

That was a month ago and I am still waiting. There are questions that need answering.

 

 

LOL. Chief bloody ringleader in guilt tripping people to pledge money into a bottomless pit a few weeks back, leading to boat loads of posters talking about donating their savings of one, two three odd grand each....is now bleating about 200 quid.

 

Can't you accept your contribution was "for the good of the club" - you seemed happy to spend everyone elses money in your own head not so long ago.

[dune]

It would indeed. I lent over £200 to the organisers to purchase blank CDs, cases, and a CD writer and was promised the money back within a week.

 

After chasing it up eventually Nick Illingsworth called in a month ago and told me they were waiting for the club to pay them and that he would sort it the following week.

 

That was a month ago and I am still waiting.

 

That's bang out of order Derry. Have you considered knee capping him?

 

LOL. Chief bloody ringleader in guilt tripping people to pledge money into a bottomless pit a few weeks back, leading to boat loads of posters talking about donating their savings of one, two three odd grand each....is now bleating about 200 quid.

 

Can't you accept your contribution was "for the good of the club" - you seemed happy to spend everyone elses money in your own head not so long ago.

 

Do you argue just for the sake of it? Clearly Derry has been wronged.

 

As this is my last post before departure to Huddersfield - Up the Saints.

[the_barmy_saints_army]

Leave it alone - its all in the past

[OldNick]

Leave it alone - its all in the past

fair, but i bunged £40 quid in on the day as well as other money around and about. If it only has gone into Fry's fees I'll be pretty p#####

[ooohTerryHurlock]

LOL. Chief bloody ringleader in guilt tripping people to pledge money into a bottomless pit a few weeks back, leading to boat loads of posters talking about donating their savings of one, two three odd grand each....is now bleating about 200 quid.

 

Can't you accept your contribution was "for the good of the club" - you seemed happy to spend everyone elses money in your own head not so long ago.

 

I guess its all about principals and morals - I don't really want to get into derrys argument, or disturb our ongoing peace - which I do appreciate; but in saying that this is the reason why I feel the organisers of this event (like any event which is geared to raising money) had a duty to at least say what the final outcome was.

 

You know from our previous discussions that I was one of those that was willing to do whatever necessary to help where I could (pointless or not) but I have always felt that communication is always the key. Failure to outline the success or failures leads to the opportunity for criticism and suspicion - therefore to avoid this the accounts or outcomes need to be published - that is the reason behind this.

[derry]

LOL. Chief bloody ringleader in guilt tripping people to pledge money into a bottomless pit a few weeks back, leading to boat loads of posters talking about donating their savings of one, two three odd grand each....is now bleating about 200 quid.

 

Can't you accept your contribution was "for the good of the club" - you seemed happy to spend everyone elses money in your own head not so long ago.

 

There is a big difference between giving a donation and being phoned up and asked to lend the money for a week.

 

I made my donations to the club and this was a loan that I expected to be honoured, and yes I will get my money back and if I have to involve a solicitor and go to the SCC it will cost them more.

Edited 16 August, 2009 by derry

[St Chalet]

There is a big difference between giving a donation and being phoned up and asked to lend the money for a week.

 

I made my donations to the club and this was a loan that I expected to be honoured, and yes I will get my money back and if I have to involve a solicitor and go to the SCC it will cost them more.

 

Out of interest, who would you would your claim be against?

[benjii]

There is a big difference between giving a donation and being phoned up and asked to lend the money for a week.

 

I made my donations to the club and this was a loan that I expected to be honoured, and yes I will get my money back and if I have to involve a solicitor and go to the SCC it will cost them more.

 

Actually, you're very unlikely to get your costs in the Small Claims Court.

[derry]

Out of interest, who would you would your claim be against?

 

I have no problem there and have the necessary evidence, emails, invoices, delivery address etc. I have now given them a deadline after which action will be taken. I feel sure it will be settled as promised.

[dune]

There is a big difference between giving a donation and being phoned up and asked to lend the money for a week.

 

I made my donations to the club and this was a loan that I expected to be honoured, and yes I will get my money back and if I have to involve a solicitor and go to the SCC it will cost them more.

 

I'm with you on this one, if they'd kept in contact and say come clean and said the whole thing made a loss and there's no money to pay you back that's one thing and the balls then in your court, but the way you've been treated (basically ignored and avoided) would make my my blood boil if it happened to me.

 

I've been no angel in the past and have dealt with some right fly by nights, but i've always payed my way and expect others to do the same. Skanking bastards are my pet hate.

[derry]

I'm with you on this one, if they'd kept in contact and say come clean and said the whole thing made a loss and there's no money to pay you back that's one thing and the balls then in your court, but the way you've been treated (basically ignored and avoided) would make my my blood boil if it happened to me.

 

I've been no angel in the past and have dealt with some right fly by nights, but i've always payed my way and expect others to do the same. Skanking bastards are my pet hate.

 

Both the people dealing with this are decent people. Nick Illingsworth called in over a month ago and promised to sort it the next week but I've heard nothing since. I've sent a couple of emails in the last week to the other person but have had no reply.

 

It's the Saints Trust who hold the money so it will have to be resolved through them.

[exit2]

Why is no one asking about final accounts from the evening with MO, MTL, MC, LM etc? I tell you why, because people have a big problem with things organised by fans or the associated groups. If people really think they will see the final accounts for the event dream on.

[CB Fry]

There is a big difference between giving a donation and being phoned up and asked to lend the money for a week.

 

I made my donations to the club and this was a loan that I expected to be honoured, and yes I will get my money back and if I have to involve a solicitor and go to the SCC it will cost them more.

 

 

Seems to me there's a massive difference between you gobbing off on here, in the Echo and elsewhere about people putting hands in their pockets left right and centre and you actually contributing your own money to something.

 

As is often the case, it is so much easier getting on one's high horse when you are spending someone elses money. You seem incredibly attached to your own, though.

 

PSML at you running off to the small claims court to claim back an amount less than you were demanding normal saints fans cough up for your little scheme not so long ago.

[VectisSaint]

Oh do shut up you nutter...

Seems a bit uncalled for. 19C has actually been posting some quite reasonable stuff lately, there is nowt wrong with what he said here. I don't very often agree with him, but when he does he gets insults such as this. Its a fair question, and deserves an answer, even if as I suspect it simply went into the coffers of the Administrator. At some point there should surely be an Administrators Report filed, has this happened?

[ooohTerryHurlock]

Why is no one asking about final accounts from the evening with MO, MTL, MC, LM etc? I tell you why, because people have a big problem with things organised by fans or the associated groups. If people really think they will see the final accounts for the event dream on.

 

It was published on the Os that this event raised £10000 plus for the benefit - Saints Web organisers have just been silent (unless I've missed something - which I am pretty sure I have n't) - so just a simple thread or email with the final figures would be enough to satisfy everyone I am sure. To be fair the whole fundraising thing was a sham - there was a hell of a lot of goodwill and offers - but pretty much a stone wall from the club ..... it is all in the past now and hopefully we will never need to go those pityfull days ever again - but just felt that in supporting both the events here - it would be nice to know how they went.

[derry]

Seems to me there's a massive difference between you gobbing off on here, in the Echo and elsewhere about people putting hands in their pockets left right and centre and you actually contributing your own money to something.

 

As is often the case, it is so much easier getting on one's high horse when you are spending someone elses money. You seem incredibly attached to your own, though.

 

PSML at you running off to the small claims court to claim back an amount less than you were demanding normal saints fans cough up for your little scheme not so long ago.

 

It wasn't my little scheme. I would have put the £2500 in when required, however that's history. I did make other donations towards the end when there was no chance of that happening.

 

When somebody rings up to borrow money with a promise of repayment in a week I expect that to be honoured. I wasn't involved in any way with the concert but lent them the money as they had run out and needed supplies.

 

This wasn't a donation and as a matter of principle is going to have to be repaid. What I do with my money is up to me.

[Pancake]

Why is no one asking about final accounts from the evening with MO, MTL, MC, LM etc? I tell you why, because people have a big problem with things organised by fans or the associated groups. If people really think they will see the final accounts for the event dream on.

 

No offence, but I believe people did and it was locked.

[Marsdinho]

The question (re cash raised) has been asked before, with similar responses....

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13471&page=2

[The9]

Thanks for that. I had an offer of £150 until you posted that

 

Obviously the charge for my services to the offeree is around the same amount. It's not like you were convinced yourself, is it ? Plus MLT matchworns must be worth plenty anyway.

[CB Fry]

This wasn't a donation and as a matter of principle is going to have to be repaid. What I do with my money is up to me.

 

So it is, but you brought it up on here to have a whine.

 

And anyway, I like the principle of people's savings being saved for covering them should they find themselves or their family jobless, or ill, or in trouble, or to treat themselves to a wedding, a car or a holiday.

 

Not to be guilttripped out of their accounts into some pie in the sky football club scheme when there were businesses out there ready to take the debts on professionally.

 

Now you know what it would have felt like to everyone else.

Edited 17 August, 2009 by CB Fry

[derry]

So it is, but you brought it up on here to have a whine.

 

And anyway, I like the principle of people's savings being saved for covering them should they find themselves or their family jobless, or ill, or in trouble, or to treat themselves to a wedding, a car or a holiday.

 

Not to be guilttripped out of their accounts into some pie in the sky football club scheme when there were businesses out there ready to take the debts on proffessionally.

 

Now you know what it would have felt like to everyone else.

 

What has got lost in the passage of time is that I was the OP on a thread saying I'll put in £2500 does anyone feel the same way. That's how it started and nobody had to come forward unless they wanted to.

 

I happen to have enough money to do whatever I please and understand that others don't. I have no doubt the debt will be paid, however this thread is about the lack of accountability and transparency and my account was an example. It does beg the questions, how much raised and how much is still owed to suppliers etc.