Financial questions

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I agree with you

 

we never HAD "our club"...it is a cute idea that fans love to believe in..

one way or another, someone is in charge...

 

 

we, as fans play our part by turning up cheering/booing the team as required and make noise and make the atmosphere etc..

 

other than that...cant see what the problem is

 

You're right DD, but I think that the term 'our club' is more an emotional one than anything else?

[VectisSaint]

unless we get european football by any means under this regime then how can yu say the PLC did not work...?

 

it worked well at times, then the guy in charge lost it

We had far far more European football pre-plc days, almost always earned by our league position (with one glorious exception), whereas the plc gave us one European foray via the somewhat dubious route of being runners-up in the FA Cup. If the Champions League had existed in its present form in the 80s we would have qualified, there is no way the plc ever brought us anything like the success of a non-plc operation.

[Thedelldays]

You're right DD, but I think that the term 'our club' is more an emotional one than anything else?

of course it is...but that is it IMO...unless of course, we as the fans actually buy the club if you get me and hold every decision to a city wide vote etc...then we will always HAVE to let one person/a few people run the club in our behalf..be that a PLC, consortium or single rich owner...makes no differenc really

 

 

I long for the day we as FANS stop going on about the "upstairs" part of the club and just discuss the team/manager etc

[John B]

We had far far more European football pre-plc days, almost always earned by our league position (with one glorious exception), whereas the plc gave us one European foray via the somewhat dubious route of being runners-up in the FA Cup. If the Champions League had existed in its present form in the 80s we would have qualified, there is no way the plc ever brought us anything like the success of a non-plc operation.

 

It was the Premiership surely which stopped clubs like us prospering .

 

The PLC was set up because we were floundering and proved relatively successful although a lack of money to buy more talented players led to our eventual downfall

[kpturner]

I thought that as well ..........

 

.......... but it does not explain the very Loud Silence from Messrs Wilde and Lowe since Admin ........

 

 

Did they sell up prior to the "Crash" ... ????:cool:

:confused:

[Viking Warrior]

Wow I agree with Alpine

 

"for one couldnt give a sh*t that he completely owns the club; I feel that I and my fellow fans are no more powerless to effect change at SMS"

 

As a shareholder or is that now former shareholder. what gets my goat is the fact I have not been officially informed about what has happened re the shares I own/owned. I thought Mark and co would have written t all shareholders telling us we can now rip up our share holding cetificates

 

I for one am very grateful that ML has purchased our clubs unlike te glasiers, ambramovich's who see chelsea, Man city and co as their train sets, ML hasn't. He has purchased saints for all the right reasons and dosent need to fork out millions on money grabbing mecenary footballers like tevez.

 

ML and AP is going to do it the honest way, something many of my fellow saints fans have seen for several decades.

 

PS anybody see the Newk result , they lost 6 -1 to leyton orient and were playing almost their best eleven.

[Handyman]

"Our" club just means the club that the "family" of fans support, the club that we give our loyalty to. In that context the term has no connotations of control. As said above, it is an emotional term.

[Gingeletiss]

"Our" club just means the club that the "family" of fans support, the club that we give our loyalty to. In that context the term has no connotations of control. As said above, it is an emotional term.

 

No argument there........in which case, it matters not who is in charge!!...one would of thought!!.

[saint_stevo]

FFS who cares? We can sign people and our best players don't 'have' to leave

 

Sounds good to me

[SaintRobbie]

To be honest. The fans do have control. If ML fails, we won't come. Simples.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Firstly to address the "debt" situation. I was under the impression that whoever bought Southampton (rumoured to be in the region of £12m) would, by signing a cheque for that amount, be obtaining the stadium (mortgage paid off) and a club with the overdraft settled. So the bulk of the 12m going to Aviva and Barclays with the balance going to smaller creditors.

 

An absolute bargain then and on the face of it an easy way to wipe your debts in one foul swoop - go into admin. I seem to remember some on here getting chastised for welcoming administration. But of course that was because there was a hitch........

 

The nasty FL started handing out points reductions which in their words were to stop clubs actively seeking administration so as to come back leaner, fitter and financially solvent a la Leicester.

 

Please don't get me wrong and think I am being negative re ML's ownership - it simply has to be better than what we had (so was administration a good thing? - best leave that for a later debate) and as potential wealthy new owners go this guy seems to be right near the top of the pile. However everything and I mean everything will now depend on one man's motivation. If he was a fanatical fan for instance I think we would see a quick upturn helped by plenty of cash but he is not and the sense of a steady "build from the bottom" policy appears to be, to the fans, a sensible way forward. (Don't know if we will be still saying that in 2 years if we are still in Div 1).

 

I think my real misgivings originates not so much with Saints but more modern football in general where there is now hardly a club that is not in private hands. When Chelsea play Man City the fixture list might just as well say Dodgy Russian money v Dodgy Arab money. It is no longer a game played on a level playing field where the wealth of clubs came on the back of the size of their support through the turnstiles. And while "sugar daddies" are initially welcomed it can go horribly wrong - see Newcastle, Portsmouth and West Ham to name a few.

 

In the old days football Boards were duty bound to listen to the views of the fans, the lifeblood of the clubs. It was only dwindling Dell gates and fan anger that "persuaded" our old friend Mr Askham to sack Branfoot so soon after extending his contract. GA knew Southampton to survive had to at least fill the Dell and under Branfoot that was not happening. (Mind you it took the return of a football man in the shape of Lawrie Mac before the axe was wielded).

 

Fans no longer have that "power", although I think many still think they do. Fan power ousted Dennis Wise and Sam Allardyce at St James but look what happened next.

 

However now we have a new breed in charge - men who can do what they like (up to a point) who (as we have seen at Chelsea) will get rid of a popular and successful manager on the advice of a player.

 

(RA is obviously very much hands on - more so than Markus Liebherr I would hazard a guess.)

 

I think we will have to wait and see how it all pans out at SMS. Maybe ML will one day give a more detailed plan of how he sees the future and just how committed he intends to be. The future is a lot brighter, I am incredibly relieved that my town still has a team I can support and SFC will hopefully survive another 125 years (I feel a Zaeger and Evans song coming on) but one thing we all have to accept while the future for the Saints is brighter than it has been for many seasons, it is also going to be very different to what has gone on in the past.

[John B]

Firstly to address the "debt" situation. I was under the impression that whoever bought Southampton (rumoured to be in the region of £12m) would, by signing a cheque for that amount, be obtaining the stadium (mortgage paid off) and a club with the overdraft settled. So the bulk of the 12m going to Aviva and Barclays with the balance going to smaller creditors.

 

An absolute bargain then and on the face of it an easy way to wipe your debts in one foul swoop - go into admin. I seem to remember some on here getting chastised for welcoming administration. But of course that was because there was a hitch........

 

The nasty FL started handing out points reductions which in their words were to stop clubs actively seeking administration so as to come back leaner, fitter and financially solvent a la Leicester.

 

Please don't get me wrong and think I am being negative re ML's ownership - it simply has to be better than what we had (so was administration a good thing? - best leave that for a later debate) and as potential wealthy new owners go this guy seems to be right near the top of the pile. However everything and I mean everything will now depend on one man's motivation. If he was a fanatical fan for instance I think we would see a quick upturn helped by plenty of cash but he is not and the sense of a steady "build from the bottom" policy appears to be, to the fans, a sensible way forward. (Don't know if we will be still saying that in 2 years if we are still in Div 1).

 

I think my real misgivings originates not so much with Saints but more modern football in general where there is now hardly a club that is not in private hands. When Chelsea play Man City the fixture list might just as well say Dodgy Russian money v Dodgy Arab money. It is no longer a game played on a level playing field where the wealth of clubs came on the back of the size of their support through the turnstiles. And while "sugar daddies" are initially welcomed it can go horribly wrong - see Newcastle, Portsmouth and West Ham to name a few.

 

In the old days football Boards were duty bound to listen to the views of the fans, the lifeblood of the clubs. It was only dwindling Dell gates and fan anger that "persuaded" our old friend Mr Askham to sack Branfoot so soon after extending his contract. GA knew Southampton to survive had to at least fill the Dell and under Branfoot that was not happening. (Mind you it took the return of a football man in the shape of Lawrie Mac before the axe was wielded).

 

Fans no longer have that "power", although I think many still think they do. Fan power ousted Dennis Wise and Sam Allardyce at St James but look what happened next.

 

However now we have a new breed in charge - men who can do what they like (up to a point) who (as we have seen at Chelsea) will get rid of a popular and successful manager on the advice of a player.

 

(RA is obviously very much hands on - more so than Markus Liebherr I would hazard a guess.)

 

I think we will have to wait and see how it all pans out at SMS. Maybe ML will one day give a more detailed plan of how he sees the future and just how committed he intends to be. The future is a lot brighter, I am incredibly relieved that my town still has a team I can support and SFC will hopefully survive another 125 years (I feel a Zaeger and Evans song coming on) but one thing we all have to accept while the future for the Saints is brighter than it has been for many seasons, it is also going to be very different to what has gone on in the past.

 

Very well put and I am in total agreement

[Thedelldays]

Very well put and I am in total agreement

yep..

 

I wonder those champioing free signings would be doing so if we fail to get promotion to the CCC by the end of NEXT season

[Chin Strain]

I understand and appreciate what you are saying but is that a bad thing ?

 

The example that springs to mind is Vladamir Romanov at Hearts. Whilst I'm comfortable with everything I've heard and seen so far from ML, I do understand where FF is coming from. The Hearts fans would be able to tell us a bit about having a wealthy owner who can do what he wants, when he wants.

[John B]

yep..

 

I wonder those champioing free signings would be doing so if we fail to get promotion to the CCC by the end of NEXT season

 

 

I am beginning to believe that most teams in this league are rubbish I thought I was getting brain washed by a regular poster but I am now genuinely in agreement;)

[Thedelldays]

I am beginning to believe that most teams in this league are rubbish I thought I was getting brain washed by a regular poster but I am now genuinely in agreement;)

 

 

seriously...bar a handful of good games (i should imagine) and a couple of teams...in general League 1 is terrible

 

I watched 6 games last season at Huish Park (yeovil) and quite alot a few years back when Plymouth were in this league and in general the standard is awful...what makes it worse, i can see alot of teams "raising their game" when they come to SMS...

 

It still riles me when I see peopl claiming that this season should be all about "consolidation"..why..? so many teams are shyt, simple as that.. we wipe the floor with nearly all in terms of facilities and resources available..we have the best keeper by a long way. potentially a couple of forwards who could bag a couple of goals..

 

the rest of the team could stand up to most in this league...

 

and a manager who i would not swap for another in this division..the ONLY one that could compare is Paul Ince...great eh.?

 

what we dont have is strength in depth...get that sorted and I cannot see why we could not have a good shout for a playoff spot...

[John B]

seriously...bar a handful of good games (i should imagine) and a couple of teams...in general League 1 is terrible

 

I watched 6 games last season at Huish Park (yeovil) and quite alot a few years back when Plymouth were in this league and in general the standard is awful...what makes it worse, i can see alot of teams "raising their game" when they come to SMS...

 

It still riles me when I see peopl claiming that this season should be all about "consolidation"..why..? so many teams are shyt, simple as that.. we wipe the floor with nearly all in terms of facilities and resources available..we have the best keeper by a long way. potentially a couple of forwards who could bag a couple of goals..

 

the rest of the team could stand up to most in this league...

 

and a manager who i would not swap for another in this division..the ONLY one that could compare is Paul Ince...great eh.?

 

what we dont have is strength in depth...get that sorted and I cannot see why we could not have a good shout for a playoff spot...

 

 

Yes I just looked at the fixture list and realised what you were saying.

 

 

We just need a good start and a few new players

[Thedelldays]

Yes I just looked at the fixture list and realised what you were saying.

 

 

We just need a good start and a few new players

of course..IF come Xmas we are nicely in mid-table then why not...and a bit of luck

 

with players like, John, Morgan, Thomas, Harding, Davis, Rasiak (probably not) Gillett, lallana. Murty (hopefully)

 

with the manager we now have and the additions we are sure to make now and in Jan

 

do you really fear, or should that lot really fear swindon, yeovil, southend, gillingham and the like... Most of who seem to have to sell and some to just get by...

 

personally, i think we will just miss out..but why is it not possible to have a bash though..? aiming for "consolidation" is stupid and typically "saints"

[CanadaSaint]

We (somewhat understandably) keep discussing this in the context of the past.

 

ML is a very different form of owner to anything we've ever known and (whether we like it or not) it's HIS club, not ours. However, I very much get the sense that he's genuinely sensitive to the need for a strong relationship with the fan base (witness his unease about bidding against "MLT's group") and is high on ethics and values.

 

But we also need to think about this in the context of a different kind of future. Professional football is unsustainable in its current form, and the chickens are heading home to roost at a lot of clubs. There are not enough Sugar Daddies to go around, and their interest usually wanes fairly quickly. Things have to change - quite drastically.

 

We're heading for an era of greater financial responsibility, and the greatest asset in that era will be being debt free. The second-greatest asset will be having an owner who is capable of putting his hand (sensibly) into his pocket in order to move up to the next level.

 

We had neither of those assets under recent regimes.

 

We have both of them under ML.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

We (somewhat understandably) keep discussing this in the context of the past.

 

ML is a very different form of owner to anything we've ever known and (whether we like it or not) it's HIS club, not ours. However, I very much get the sense that he's genuinely sensitive to the need for a strong relationship with the fan base (witness his unease about bidding against "MLT's group") and is high on ethics and values.

 

But we also need to think about this in the context of a different kind of future. Professional football is unsustainable in its current form, and the chickens are heading home to roost at a lot of clubs. There are not enough Sugar Daddies to go around, and their interest usually wanes fairly quickly. Things have to change - quite drastically.

 

We're heading for an era of greater financial responsibility, and the greatest asset in that era will be being debt free. The second-greatest asset will be having an owner who is capable of putting his hand (sensibly) into his pocket in order to move up to the next level.

 

We had neither of those assets under recent regimes.

 

We have both of them under ML.

 

Agreed.

 

Let's hope ML is in it for the long term.

[VectisSaint]

Where is this consolidation stuff coming from? AP is aimimg for Top 2, and why not? Whatever else, we should at minimum get into the playoffs, once there it is a lottery unfortunately. Top 2 is probably optimistic ultimately, we should not forget that there are 4 Premier Clubs in League One this season, not just us, Norwich, Charlton and Leeds will be tough opposition, though I would tip Norwich to be the main contenders with us.

 

It is clear that currently we may not be that far off having a decent 1st XI, the problem is that we have no strength in depth (apart from GKs, which is the one place you can probably survive without it).

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Where is this consolidation stuff coming from? AP is aimimg for Top 2, and why not? Whatever else, we should at minimum get into the playoffs, once there it is a lottery unfortunately. Top 2 is probably optimistic ultimately, we should not forget that there are 4 Premier Clubs in League One this season, not just us, Norwich, Charlton and Leeds will be tough opposition, though I would tip Norwich to be the main contenders with us.

 

It is clear that currently we may not be that far off having a decent 1st XI, the problem is that we have no strength in depth (apart from GKs, which is the one place you can probably survive without it).

 

I will be delighted if we are near a play off spot come April. Hope that doesn't mean I am aiming low - its just I think there is a lot of work to do with that squad and it is going to take a while. The sooner Pardew gets in some good asistants the better - he has already confessed to spending too much time on the phone last week.

[Pedro]

I heard from someone who contracts to SFC and he and other suppliers were paid OK, a bit late but nonetheless, paid.

 

I can only think that SFC honoured their debts (still solvent) but SLH PLC didn't.

[eurosaint]

I heard from someone who contracts to SFC and he and other suppliers were paid OK, a bit late but nonetheless, paid.

 

I can only think that SFC honoured their debts (still solvent) but SLH PLC didn't.

 

I must say that it was also my impression that SFC suppliers would be paid but the big boys (Aviva and Barclays) would lose out !

The reason for this being that the FL would not impose further sanctions if football debts were settled (some sort of CVA or equivalent) ???

[Gingeletiss]

Rumour has it, that the final payment was in the region of £20 million!!!......as I said, rumour.

[alpine_saint]

We (somewhat understandably) keep discussing this in the context of the past.

 

ML is a very different form of owner to anything we've ever known and (whether we like it or not) it's HIS club, not ours. However, I very much get the sense that he's genuinely sensitive to the need for a strong relationship with the fan base (witness his unease about bidding against "MLT's group") and is high on ethics and values.

 

But we also need to think about this in the context of a different kind of future. Professional football is unsustainable in its current form, and the chickens are heading home to roost at a lot of clubs. There are not enough Sugar Daddies to go around, and their interest usually wanes fairly quickly. Things have to change - quite drastically.

 

We're heading for an era of greater financial responsibility, and the greatest asset in that era will be being debt free. The second-greatest asset will be having an owner who is capable of putting his hand (sensibly) into his pocket in order to move up to the next level.

 

We had neither of those assets under recent regimes.

 

We have both of them under ML.

 

An excellent post.

 

And I have to say, I see all the changes you outline as being for the positive for SFC going forward under its new ownership, so thank heavens ML came along.

[hughieslastminutegoal]

...but we will never do back to the "good old days" when it was little ol Southampton punching above their weight in the premiership!

 

Somehow I think that's really what you liked about being a Saints fan, the little club that often punched above it's weight, and you are less interested now that it could be a barony, wherever that might lead.

 

For what it's worth I feel exactly like that. It isn't the club I started supporting in 1963. But then it hasn't really been that for 20 years. Football isn't the game I was watching then, either. Maybe you, like me, are just getting old?

[saintgert76]

John - its not a question of not "liking" being privately owned, nowadays it seems having a Sugar Daddy owner is the only way to survive/compete and our "sugar daddy" owner thankfully seems respected and genuine.

 

However what I find incredibly frustrating is the way the fans seem to think nothing has changed except ML has come in wiped the debt, cleared the morgage and is wandering around with a blank chequebook. It is not quite like that.

 

Whereas in the past under Lowe etc during PLC days, the chairman and the board were answerable 100% to the shareholders and to a lesser degree the customers (thats fans to you and I). Indeed even in pre PLC days when we were a limited company under Askham, Woodford, Reader, Barber and Co they were much anwerable to the fans who kept them financially afloat.

 

Now fan pressure can count for nowt if Markus doesn't agree. He could send the team out wearing Pompey blue v Millwall if he wants. He is not financially dependent on the fans, he has no board to answer to. Hopefully the man will not be so silly and I am sure he will want to build a club he and us can be proud of but you only have to look down the road to see how a club can sufffer by falling into apparently wealthy hands only for it to go horribly pear shaped when people lose interest and try and claim back their previously invested funds.

 

So it no longer is about debt or finance. If we had sold Lallana for £50m last season we could have all rejoiced, settled the mortgage and paid up our debts and still had cash left over for team strenghening but now if we sold him for the same sum tomorrow, it will not neccesarily make one ioata of difference to the "club's" wealth.

 

We are totally and utterly in the hands of ML. I do very much feel we could be in worse hands so am hopeful better days lay ahead but we will never do back to the "good old days" when it was little ol Southampton punching above their weight in the premiership!

 

Just because a PLC is accountable to it's shareholders it doesn't stop an incompetent, halfwit board of directors destroying the company. An intelligent wealthy single owner is better than an incompetently run PLC. On the other hand a well run PLC would be preferable to a useless single owner (eg Mike Ashley)

[Neil]

The days in the 90s when it was "little ol Southampton punching above their weight in the Premiership" were very enjoyable for me, especially as they contained MLT in his pomp. Those days were always going to end with A) Relegation or B) A new bigger stadium. As it turned out the new stadium was not the answer that many fans thought it would be. However with the stadium now, support base and one wealthy owner with no divided board, the aspirations should at least be that we are a decent-sized one-club city with a chance of Premiership football if well run.

[westofshannonsaint]

......... Things have to change - quite drastically.

 

We're heading for an era of greater financial responsibility, and the greatest asset in that era will be being debt free.

 

 

Exactly, and part of me hopes that ML does not pump megabucks into Saints, that we can grow as a more stable team. ML has said that we will invest at the required level (not buying Kaka) and looking at the squad & other teams in L1 (albeit with limited knowledge) I think we are doing just that.

 

Can someone tell me how much the stadium debt cost per year?

 

Obviously we need additions hopefully they will come soon, but is there any team in this league that doesn't need strengthening? If we believe what we read, Saints no longer have to be a selling club, and our facilities & high(ish) profile manager must make us an attractive option for L1 standard players.

 

For the first time in years I am genuinely confidant of a good season and expect us to be pushing for a playoff spot, but the first goal has to be get out of the relegation zone.

 

the future is bright............

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Somehow I think that's really what you liked about being a Saints fan, the little club that often punched above it's weight, and you are less interested now that it could be a barony, wherever that might lead.

 

For what it's worth I feel exactly like that. It isn't the club I started supporting in 1963. But then it hasn't really been that for 20 years. Football isn't the game I was watching then, either. Maybe you, like me, are just getting old?

 

You're probably not wrong Hughie.

[Redondo Saint]

You're probably not wrong Hughie.

 

I'm sure he's right. However, if we get back to the Premiership we will still be a club punching above its weight. Achieving mid table or avoiding relegation would be seen as a success - as it is for about 12 clubs.

 

Unfortunately money has made the job a lot harder.