Munto Finance v Markus Liebherr (Notts County v Saints)

[Thedelldays]

You have a point to an extent. A lot of the payments amount to reconstructing the club and its playing staff back to an acceptable level. We've lost a lot of players and we've partially replaced them and i would expect more changes to come next month.

 

 

we call it acceptable level..I bet exeter, yeovil etc would dream of the level we are leaving behind

[Joensuu]

how you can count money in from surman and DMG that was used to keep the club in existance and not to tuck away in the bank

That's simple. Irrespective of the money, or the ownership of the club, during the summer of 2009, did we or did we not sell players which other teams were willing to pay large transfer fees for (well large for league one)?

 

If so those players, who were highly valued by other teams, were lost over the summer. You could easily argue that the money we have spent since the clubs change of ownership is broadly equivalent to the value of the players lost during administration. It doesn't matter whose money this is, or where the money went.

 

While the value of the playing squad is broadly the same as it was last Easter, IMO the quality of the playing squad has improved significantly.

 

 

why do you deny the fact we are blowing everyone out of the water with money in this league..we are not just out spending..we are blowing people out of the water..

 

 

I imagine this isn't actually being denied. It is the implication that this has a bearing on what we should achieve that people don't want to be drawn.

 

So I agree. Yes, we are blowing everyone out of the water with money in this league. Does that mean we should demand promotion this year? Not at all. Does that mean we should demand promotion next year? Absolutely.

[Whitey Grandad]

we call it acceptable level..I bet exeter, yeovil etc would dream of the level we are leaving behind

Yes, I keep forgetting what league we're in.

[The Kraken]

we are....how much have yeovil spent, gillingham, exeter, wycombe, tranmere, stockport, swindon..

 

we have probably spent as much this season one player, staff and wages as 5 of those teams above will spend between them in the next few years

 

Dear God, this is getting tedious.

 

No-one is arguing the fact that we're a much bigger club than those you just mentioned. Arizona has repeatedly stated that our income is around £6m per year higher than such clubs, hence we can afford to pay bigger transfer fees and wages than these clubs.

 

But your analogies to Chelsea and Man City are just not valid; both of those clubs operate at massive losses. Our owners have indicated all along that we are being run as a profitable business, we won't be run as a loss making exercise.

 

You seem to conveniently write-off the £3m of player sales in the summer because they were made prior to the club's purchase. But Mr Liebherr was involved in negotiations for the club well before these player sales, and if you think for a minute that having £3m worth of assets removed from the company accounts would have had no effect on the price he eventually paid for the club, then it's you who are severely deluded.

 

This summer we found ourselves in a position whereby we had lost 7 senior players from our squad. Players who would have walked into probably any team in this division. Those players needed to be replaced, and quickly. Yes, we've spent a fair amount of money to do that. No-one really knows the actual figures as the majority of the fees are "undisclosed", but we can be sure its quite significant. And yes, we've spent more than any other club in the division. But, although you just don't want to do it, that HAS to be offset against the players that have left the club in the summer. It's a redundant exercise without doing that, no matter how much you argue it.

[Thedelldays]

That's simple. Irrespective of the money, or the ownership of the club, during the summer of 2009, did we or did we not sell players which other teams were willing to pay large transfer fees for (well large for league one)?

 

So I agree. Yes, we are blowing everyone out of the water with money in this league. Does that mean we should demand promotion this year? Not at all. Does that mean we should demand promotion next year? Absolutely.

 

 

well..the difference is, the money we are blowing people out of the water with..did NOT come from player sales..is NOT sitting in the bank..it has come from our new owners..something NOT ONE CLUB in this league are able to do..and not even close to the money we are spending..

 

look at brizzle rovers...how much have they spent or will spend from the lambert money (which was big money for them)

 

also your second point..agree completely

[Thedelldays]

Dear God, this is getting tedious.

 

No-one is arguing the fact that we're a much bigger club than those you just mentioned. Arizona has repeatedly stated that our income is around £6m per year higher than such clubs, hence we can afford to pay bigger transfer fees and wages than these clubs.

 

You seem to conveniently write-off the £3m of player sales in the summer because they were made prior to the club's purchase. But Mr Liebherr was involved in negotiations for the club well before these player sales, and if you think for a minute that having £3m worth of assets removed from the company accounts would have had no effect on the price he eventually paid for the club, then it's you who are severely deluded.

 

.

 

 

seeing as you seem to know all..

 

how much did markus pay for us and can you tell us about the finer detail of the club purchase..thanks

 

OK..how many other clubs in league 1 sell big and buy big.?

 

how much of the money have leeds used since their big sales in the summer...?

[Thedelldays]

also, have read that the owner is also paying for the upgrade to the training ground (which I doubt is going to be cheap) allowing MORE funds in january....

 

again, miles away from what any other team in this league can do....

[The Kraken]

seeing as you seem to know all..

 

how much did markus pay for us and can you tell us about the finer detail of the club purchase..thanks

 

OK..how many other clubs in league 1 sell big and buy big.?

 

how much of the money have leeds used since their big sales in the summer...?

 

You're clearly choosing to ignore previous posts on this very thread in order to carry on your tirade. But I'll humour you...

 

Of course I can't tell you how much was paid for the club; no-one will do that. But my point stands; if you think the sale price of the club would stay the same while the club lost £3m of assets overnight, then you're deluded. I can just see the negotiations...."so the club is worth £3m less than it was yesterday? Sure, I'll still pay the same price for it." Probably no-one will ever know how much effect this had on the exact sale price of the club, but to dismiss it entirely as you have done is clearly wrong.

 

And I've already agreed with you; hardly any clubs in this league buy big like we have. No-one, especially me, is going to argue with you with the fact that we've spent much more than the other clubs, and we can pay higher wages than most other clubs. But that just HAS to be allied to the fact that we lost so many senior players for a very larrge sum of money, and those players had to be replaced in a hurry. And I guess that's where our differences lie; I see the purchases we've made thus far as us playing "catch up" as fast as we can with the other big boys in this league.

 

In any case, the January transfer window will be a good indicator of where our finances lie. If we go out then and splash another £1M or more on players then I may well defer to your views. Until then, I think they're a bit exagerated.

[LGTL]

also, have read that the owner is also paying for the upgrade to the training ground (which I doubt is going to be cheap) allowing MORE funds in january....

 

again, miles away from what any other team in this league can do....

 

And most in the league above, and some in the leage above that..

 

Brilliant isn't it.

[Somewhere In Northam]

In any case, the January transfer window will be a good indicator of where our finances lie. If we go out then and splash another £1M or more on players then I may well defer to your views. Until then, I think they're a bit exagerated.

mmmm:cool:

[Whitey Grandad]

Of course I can't tell you how much was paid for the club; no-one will do that. But my point stands; if you think the sale price of the club would stay the same while the club lost £3m of assets overnight, then you're deluded. I can just see the negotiations...."so the club is worth £3m less than it was yesterday? Sure, I'll still pay the same price for it." Probably no-one will ever know how much effect this had on the exact sale price of the club, but to dismiss it entirely as you have done is clearly wrong.

Hmm, it's not quite as simple as that. We didn't actually lose £3m of assets 'we' sold them and received money in exchange. If that reduced the debts then the net value of the enterprise on the balance sheet is approximately the same. It depends on what the book value of the assets was before we sold them. But all this does of course affect the negotiations for the sale of the business and is tied up with what the admistrator, and ultimately the creditors, would accept and what the purchaser was willing to pay.

[The Kraken]

Hmm, it's not quite as simple as that. We didn't actually lose £3m of assets 'we' sold them and received money in exchange. If that reduced the debts then the net value of the enterprise on the balance sheet is approximately the same. It depends on what the book value of the assets was before we sold them. But all this does of course affect the negotiations for the sale of the business and is tied up with what the admistrator, and ultimately the creditors, would accept and what the purchaser was willing to pay.

 

Very true, and well put. My point is though, that at the start of the negotiations the club would have had their assets valued, and their cash in hand determined. That would have been the basis for a "value" of the business to be ascertained by the various interested parties. In the weeks that followed, through the protracted sale of the club, the asset value of the club was reduced by £3m in terms of player sales. Though this of course should impact on the cash in hand value. But in addition, the cash in hand figure was also reduced during this period, through the fact that we had to pay wages yet had no meaningful income through either ticket sales or season tickets.

 

I'm not saying for a minute that I know the actual figures, of course I'm not. I'm pretty sure that I don't and never will understand all the ins and outs of the deal. But what I am saying is that to completely write of the £3m in sales as irrelevant to the final sale price is absolutely wrong, it simply has to be taken account when considering our total spend in the summer.

Edited 10 December, 2009 by The Kraken

[benjii]

Nah, it's irrelevant.

[The Kraken]

Nah, it's irrelevant.

 

My dad could beat your dad up.

[Toadhall Saint]

Liebherr's conservative approach was always going to be the beast long term plan. I don't think some people have quite grasped the concept yet however. I keep seeing statements like, "give Lallana £5m to make him stay" and, "forget the FA Cup, we don't need the prize money"

 

Its the age we live in - fiscal prudence hasn't been all the rage for years but believe me its on its way. Buy buy buy and sod the consequences has been the mantra. Mr Liebherr has never (despite his wealth) lived by that mantra and thats one of the reasons he is so wealthy. I'm sure that Saints will become wealthy and not just in money terms, wealthy in talent - from top to bottom on and off the field under the ownership of Mr Liebherr and the stewardship of Mr Cortese but, it isn't going to be overnight - thats what truly puts a smile on my face.

[BadgerBadger]

why are people denying the fact we are blowing money hand over fist for league 1....does it scare people to see this..?

 

Polite question: Why should this be scary?

[Verbal]

Notts County could well be the next club to hit the buffers, or fall into the hands of a yet another cynical profiteer, thanks to the appalling FL attitude to 'fit and proper' tests and its own regulatory framework.

 

Sven is walking amidst suspicions that he was duped - promised shares in a mining company said to be worth almost 100 billion, but actually worth £60,000. (My heart bleeds.)

 

Meanwhile, Munto (or the offshore company Qadbak), look like walking away with £3 million, made from shares they were literally given by the supporters' trust just a few months ago, on what they thought were cast-iron guarantees to transform the club into a premiership contender.

 

It is, it seems to me at least, an appalling act of theft carried out under the noses of a willfully blind FL. £3mill is not a bad return from an investment in nothing much more than a few months' worth of malign promises.

 

Thanks heavens for Markus. And thanks heavens Mawhinney is leaving the FL.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article6952537.ece

[Arizona]

why do you deny the fact we are blowing everyone out of the water with money in this league..we are not just out spending..we are blowing people out of the water..

 

if you think the signings we have made have totted up to £2m shows you are in denial..

 

we are spending chelsea money for league 1....get with the programme

 

how you can count money in from surman and DMG that was used to keep the club in existance and not to tuck away in the bank

 

again...no club in league 1 will rake in a million for a player and go anywhere NEAR to re-spending it on the squad.

 

no other club in the league could maintain the squad we have either...

 

I can't really say it much simpler without just repeating myself. To put it as simply as I can:

 

Yes, we have spent more than any club in League 1. Yes, we have also sold more players (price wise) than anyone except Leeds. No, we don't have that money to spend. Yes, our owner is investing a similar amount to replace those players. Yes, our wage bill is higher than most in this league. Yes, our income from gates is higher than most in this league. Yes, our transfer spending is proportional to our income. No we are not the Man City of League 1. Other clubs like Leeds, Norwich and Charlton CAN maintain a squad similar to ours. Why? They also have proportionally more income, like we do.

[Torrent Of Abuse]

One difference between Liebherr and the other high spender is that he seems to be funding the infrastructure too. It's one thing to pay 40k for a DOF or fund wages fir ex-Premier League players to come down to League 2. It's one thing to just buy a squad of high profile players to buy a Cup win. It's quite another to revamp the training facilities.

 

Pompey bought nothing of real substance. They have no new ground, no training ground -just the silverware and a large wage bill. The players will go, the staff will go, the wage bill will only go after it has succeeded in crippling them for years to come. The silverware will give them good memories but they will be little comfort.

 

It's like winning a million and deciding whether to buy a house or have ****-up. If you choose the former, you're made for life. If you choose the latter, you end up with bill, memories and a massive hangover.

 

The skates have earned themselves that hangover.

[Arizona]

One difference between Liebherr and the other high spender is that he seems to be funding the infrastructure too. It's one thing to pay 40k for a DOF or fund wages fir ex-Premier League players to come down to League 2. It's one thing to just buy a squad of high profile players to buy a Cup win. It's quite another to revamp the training facilities.

 

Pompey bought nothing of real substance. They have no new ground, no training ground -just the silverware and a large wage bill. The players will go, the staff will go, the wage bill will only go after it has succeeded in crippling them for years to come. The silverware will give them good memories but they will be little comfort.

 

It's like winning a million and deciding whether to buy a house or have ****-up. If you choose the former, you're made for life. If you choose the latter, you end up with bill, memories and a massive hangover.

 

The skates have earned themselves that hangover.

 

 

You have a good point RE: Pompey. Years from now, if I were a Pompey fan I'd be saying, "yeah we won the cup, but we got blown out the sky financially doing it."

[Torrent Of Abuse]

For all the talk of "we're not a big club anymore" it's imporant to remember that at the start of the season we had a Premier League ground, Premier League trainng ground, L1/2 players and pretty much no staff. The players and staff have now been brought up to the same sort of standard as the facilities.

 

Pompey did the opposite. They had a lower Championship ground and no training facilities They spent it all on players but (as with us) these could all disappear tomorrow - and in their case it's looking ever more likely that they will. In their case, these were also paid for with borrowed money so when they leave, they leave debt behind.

 

It's worth noting too that our absence from the Premier League has nor been long enough to seriously damage our core support. Our attendances this year show that. Pompey's stay in the top flight has similarly not been long enough to cement a bigger core of long term support. If their gamble hadn't been called in now and if we had kept our hapless former board for much longer, the story might have been different - but crucially it's not. Pompey will sink into decline while we rise - and the hangover of debt mixed with poor facilities will mean their decline will be as long an hard as the one they suffered before Milan came around...

[The Kraken]

You have a good point RE: Pompey. Years from now, if I were a Pompey fan I'd be saying, "yeah we won the club, but we got blown out the sky financially doing it."

 

I know Pompey fans who are saying that already.....

[Verbal]

The Notts County crisis deepens. This could turn into a huge scandal that will damage the reputations of the FL and Mawhinney, who have failed to respond to a litany of national newspaper headlines warning that Qadbak was about as suspicious an offshore company as it's possible to be.

 

The supporters' trust no doubt feel foolish that they were duped, but they could have done with a bit of judicious advice from the FL. Instead, they rubber-stamped a takeover that amounted, it seems, to a straightforward act of deception that robbed Notts Co supporters of the entire value of their shareholding - and, remarkably, got them to pay off club debts ahead of the takeover!

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/dec/11/notts-county-john-armstrong-holmes

[BadgerBadger]

It would seem at the moment that everyone was blinded by the riches but not everthing that sparkles is gold and lack of due diligence looks likely to be the blame but we know how easy it is for that to fall by the wayside.

 

Looks like Campbell saw the woods for the trees and jumped ship before it sank - Mr Eriksson could well be exposed as the money grabber he always appeared to be but that would be cycnical.

 

Feel for the fans big time on this one and hopefully they'll rise from the flames

[krissyboy31]

I see that Sven's man Backe has left them now. He's only been there a matter of weeks.

[david in sweden]

It will be interesting to watch how the two new owners of Saints and County go about achieving success. With the appointment of Eriksson on an unconfirmed £40,000 a week it appears the Middle Eastern consortium, Munto Finance are going to throw shed loads of cash in attempting to propel NC into the CCC while it appears we are going down the slower or steadier "Bosman" route, picking up free transfers and building slowly by laying deeper foundations. Who will reach the CCC first, I wonder? Comparing the two styles will be fascinating.

 

Willl ML start "flashing the cash" if early results are not good or is he prepared to consolidate a few seasons?

 

Will Notts County manage to attract decent players into League Two?

 

Oh and one more thing, while talking about new owners and their differing styles - this is from the front page of the Sports secion in today's Guardian (22.07.09).

 

PREMIER LEAGUE STILL NOT HAPPY WITH AL-FAHIM'S PORTSMOUTH TAKEOVER

"The Premier League will block Sulaiman Al-Fahim's supposed takeover of Portsmouth despite his installation as the club's chairman yesterday, subject to more investigations".

The fat lady may have cleared her throat but the first note has yet to be sung! Hypo will be getting nervous

 

 

Agree with that Duncan.

Throwing lots of finance at it, isn't necessarily the right route either.

 

I was puzzled by Sol Campbells prompt departure..especially as he was on good money, personally I think he found L2 to be on a par with Hampshire League (in a manner of speaking). With his background and experience it must have been a real culture shock for him. No wonder he left so soon.

 

No matter how much you offer top players, there is no guarantee they will " make " the side successful. Admitedly, Lawrie Mac did it for us in the late 70's /early 80's but we were already playing at the highest level when most of them came, and those chosen made the difference, but even then we didn't win the League title, or even a cup afterwards.

 

Notts County won't solve their problems at that level so easily, although they ought to be in L1 by next season if they are expecting progress in the long term.

[Frank's cousin]

Its the age we live in - fiscal prudence hasn't been all the rage for years but believe me its on its way. Buy buy buy and sod the consequences has been the mantra. Mr Liebherr has never (despite his wealth) lived by that mantra and thats one of the reasons he is so wealthy. I'm sure that Saints will become wealthy and not just in money terms, wealthy in talent - from top to bottom on and off the field under the ownership of Mr Liebherr and the stewardship of Mr Cortese but, it isn't going to be overnight - thats what truly puts a smile on my face.

 

Just about the wisest words on this subject and agree with the smile on face point to!

[stevegrant]

What an absolute disgrace of a situation Notts County find themselves in.

 

Hans Backe's just resigned after 7 weeks in charge, and apparently the players have been told that there's only enough money to pay them for December and January.

[John B]

apparently the players have been told that there's only enough money to pay them for December and January.

 

Better than Pompey perhaps?

[S-Clarke]

What an absolute disgrace of a situation Notts County find themselves in.

 

Hans Backe's just resigned after 7 weeks in charge, and apparently the players have been told that there's only enough money to pay them for December and January.

 

It just makes this ''fit and proper'' persons test even more of a farce tbh.

[John B]

It just makes this ''fit and proper'' persons test even more of a farce tbh.

 

Yes I agree money is ruining Football for a lot of Fans including us in the past nothing really to do with the Persons test possibly

[Frank's cousin]

These sorts of argfuments all stem from your own personal attitude towards risk v prudence, quick fixes v long term stabilty. And its fair to say that because of a combination of what we wnet through and the near colapse of the club + the current economical climate, I would hazzard a guess that many fans are now far happier with a low risk wise investment for the long term rather quick spend fixes.

 

Several years ago fans bemoaned our risk averse strategy because it meant we were going backwards in overall squad quality in relation to those clubs around us getting in to debt to fund premiership survival. Yet now because we have seen what debt can lead to we are fianlly recognising that the sow burn yet sound investment back growth will put us in far better position long term, than any flash in the pan quick spend as we have seen at pompey

[Verbal]

Notts County won't solve their problems at that level so easily, although they ought to be in L1 by next season if they are expecting progress in the long term.

 

As what looks like fraud unravels at Notts Co, I'd be surprised if they make it through the season in League 2, let alone have any chance of promotion.

 

Their supporters' dreams of reliving the glory days have been crushed - and they've lost control of their club because they believed the false claims made by anonymous characters from a secretive offshore company.

 

'Fit and proper' indeed.

[St.Patrik]

Well Swedish papers says that Notts C´s Swedish manager has left the building and they only got money to pay wages until Januari - then they are broke. So Saints are much better off then Notts C I dare to say.

[iansums]

The more I see of the situation at other clubs such as Notts County, Poopey, Liverpool even and the longer this season goes on the more grateful I am to Markus Liebherr. I think we have been very, very lucky.

[hypochondriac]

It just makes this ''fit and proper'' persons test even more of a farce tbh.

 

Not really because it doesn't apply outside of the prem.

[stevegrant]

Not really because it doesn't apply outside of the prem.

The Football League brought in a "Fit and Proper Persons" test before the Premier League did.

 

They are both equally as pointless, as the Notts County and Pompey situations prove.

[aintforever]

Notts County will be the next club to go into admin IMO, their keeper is on 15K a week and Munto are not going to be around for much longer.

[Glasgow_Saint]

Notts County will be the next club to go into admin IMO, their keeper is on 15K a week and Munto are not going to be around for much longer.

 

That cant be true

[krissyboy31]

That cant be true

 

Probably is TBH. Schmeichel would have been on a decent enough wedge at Man City. County paid nearly £700k for him and he could be playing at a much higher level (he didn't go there for the love of it).

[stevegrant]

That cant be true

It won't be far off, IMO.

 

They paid more than £1m for Kasper Schmeichel - with the money they were throwing around in August, he'll have expected a pretty big wedge to drop to that level of football.

 

This is a good blog on the Notts County fiasco.

[Glasgow_Saint]

I feel sorry for the NC fans I really do! Must have felt like a dream come true, then once they started splashing cash they must have thought ‘jackpot’ its not a dream this is reality!

 

Now they are likely to end up worse than they were before and become a laughing stock in the bargain.

 

Its madness that people can do this sort of thing and that nobody controls it.

[Jimmy_D]

The more I see of the situation at other clubs such as Notts County, Poopey, Liverpool even and the longer this season goes on the more grateful I am to Markus Liebherr. I think we have been very, very lucky.

 

'tis the equivalent of a good friend winning the lottery, in terms of how unlikely it was that this would happen to us. And while it doesn't make us rich, we still get some benefits... cheaper tickets, better stadium later maybe... and even better, we get to see them have a bloody good time with it and be a part of that

[Colinjb]

I feel sorry for the NC fans I really do! Must have felt like a dream come true, then once they started splashing cash they must have thought ‘jackpot’ its not a dream this is reality!

 

Now they are likely to end up worse than they were before and become a laughing stock in the bargain.

 

Its madness that people can do this sort of thing and that nobody controls it.

 

I agree, it's a dreadful situation for a fan to be in, I hope for their sake they can pull through.

[Saints foreva]

It won't be far off, IMO.

 

They paid more than £1m for Kasper Schmeichel - with the money they were throwing around in August, he'll have expected a pretty big wedge to drop to that level of football.

 

This is a good blog on the Notts County fiasco.

 

According to a couple of county fans on The Football Forum, they've not paid a single penny for Kasper and still owe City the whole fee that was agreed.

 

Football League must surely have to apply a embargo on them.

[stevegrant]

According to a couple of county fans on The Football Forum, they've not paid a single penny for Kasper and still owe City the whole fee that was agreed.

 

Football League must surely have to apply a embargo on them.

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. A quite frightening prospect for a now-penniless League Two club getting gates of just over 7000 trying to find the money to pay the transfer fees they assumed the "rich" former owners had paid.

 

They also paid significant money to Colchester for Johnnie Jackson - I presume I'm not going out on much of a limb to suggest that they've not paid any of that fee yet either.

 

The Football League really are an utter disgrace for not performing stricter checks on these shysters who have now been allowed to ride off into the sunset without any recourse whatsoever.

[doughnutman]

according to a couple of county fans on the football forum, they've not paid a single penny for kasper and still owe city the whole fee that was agreed.

 

Football league must surely have to apply a embargo on them.

 

hcdajfu

[Verbal]

Not really because it doesn't apply outside of the prem.

 

It does, hypo. And the FL approved the owners after secret meetings with people on the board at Notts Clo who basically showed the FL bits of paper suggesting who the true owners were.

 

The FL has never revealed who these people were - nor have they said why they believed these people had any credibility whatsoever, despite a welter of newspaper reports saying that Qadbak were about as legit as a three dollar bill.

 

So evidently bad is Qadbak's track record that the FIA banned them from owning a Formula One team. Which is a bit of a reality check - the FIA has more moral backbone than Mawhinney's Football League.

[Whitey Grandad]

Did anybody really believe that someone would pick Notts County as the best club to invest their millions in? It never rang true, did it?

[Jimmy_D]

Did anybody really believe that someone would pick Notts County as the best club to invest their millions in? It never rang true, did it?

 

rang about as true as Saints in League One on -10 suddenly having the 4th/5th richest owner in the country to be fair...