We Are In The Poo

[saint1977]

I don't think we are retarded enough to sign another player unless either:

 

a) Other players are leaving in the near future and the deals have been confirmed.

b) We can afford to bring them in based on our current income.

 

Don't forget that other than Skacel, BWP, Euell and John, we are in effect paying a youth team. Nigh on 20 players on pretty high wages have left and been replaced by about 6 on very low wages.

 

Our wage bill must surely now be amongst the lowest in this division and we really should be breaking even. If not there is one serious hole in our money pot.

 

It's called the academy and takes at least £5m, probably more actually, to run.

[SaintDonkey]

yOU AND ONE OR TWO OTHERS MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG TO SUIT YOUR AGENDA. gASMI IS NOW CONTRACTED TO US AND PAID BY US.

 

Strasbourg will continue to finance his recovery and he will join his new teammates at St Mary's after that.

 

Not so much make it up as they go along but quote from the press.

[saint1977]

Here's a theory to chew over, controversial as it may be...

 

Maybe the "financial crisis" isnt quite as bad as we are led to believe, and Lowe is twisting it to make him look like the white knight that came in and rescued us ???

 

I think the financial situation is pretty bad Alps I'm afraid, it would great for the club if you were right but we were very close to doing a Cov and having to take the first bid that came in. That may still be the case later in the year if we can't hang on until the January window. Still not convinced Wilde and Lowe will be at the club by XMAS - they might have to take an offer if costs don't come down by quite a bit more. SISU went for Cov because they were 30 mins from going under - hope it doesn't happen to us.

[NickG]

Not so much make it up as they go along but quote from the press.

 

sure he will apologise.....

[alpine_saint]

Well indeed. Nasty old Wupes is so devious he even managed to get Crouch to publish the last set of plc financial accounts that proved that we are in the financial mire just to perpetuate the myth that we are broke.

 

Of course Alps, as you well know, Rupes has been able to pull up the false floor of his office at SMS and retrieve that famous bag full of gold and cash that he squirreled away by not 'pushing on' to make us a top 6 team when we were in the Prem so we in fact do not have any money worries at all and would have signed Robinho last night had it not been for the fact that he doesn't like living by the sea.

 

What colour is the sky in Alpine World? Actaully, I know that one. It's grey, depressive and constantly raining.

 

 

What's with the sneering and the abuse ? This explanation fits the few known facts as much as any other. And far from it being a depressive outlook, I would have argued that it is slightly more positive than continual claims that we are 2 weeks away from administration and need to get rid of all our recognised players.

[Legod Second Coming]

What's with the sneering and the abuse ? This explanation fits the few known facts as much as any other. And far from it being a depressive outlook, I would have argued that it is slightly more positive than continual claims that we are 2 weeks away from administration and need to get rid of all our recognised players.

 

 

Alps, serious question, do you think there is an advantage to Rupes exacerbating our problems for public effect?

 

OK, on a pyschological level, he can look 'more heroic' but I'm not sure he's really that egotistical... then again...

 

From a very good business perspective, however, there could be value in this:

 

1. It decreases the expectation of fans, which is good for the team - if not immediately for the attendances!

 

2. It puts pressure on agents and players with regards to contracts.

 

3. It encourages offers for players who might not otherwise want to move.

 

So, while personally, I think we probably are just in the sh!t. I also think you have very sound business reasons for ensuring we communicate the depth of our crisis for maximum 'personal/SFC' gain.

 

What dya think??

[aintforever]

administration isn't a million miles away

 

The fact that we are signing players would indicate otherwise.

[Chez]

Then he has first to get real. Lowe is living in a day dream. The priority this season (again) is to avoid relegation. In a year's time we have a real chance of doing well with many of the current squad when they will have become older, more experienced and tougher combatants.

 

He is gambling by spending vital money on two players who are yet more 'might be's'. I can't see Barclays being impressed.

 

All Lowe is doing is cutting the wage bill back as far as possible (because quite frankly it had got out of control) whilst at the same time ensuring there are enough players to fill a team sheet.

 

If he could he would have sold BWP, Thomas, Skacel and Davies but obviously there were no takers.

 

Every player we have signed is a gamble because we simply do not have the funds to buy tried and trusted.I would imagine Barclays are more than happy with this approach.

[EdgarAllanPoe]

The fact that we are signing players would indicate otherwise.

 

those players will be lucky to be earning £1,000pw. 18 year olds at Strasbourg are on apprentice money. Pulis has been toted round every club by his dad, he has hardly played a game for any of them, and as for first team games.......

 

Same with the spurs kid, he is a first year pro, very lucky to be earning £1,000pw.

 

The club needs to fill a team sheet and these are absolutely the cheapest bodies around to do it.

 

The club needed to raise £4m in player sales by the end of the window and reducce the wage bill substantially. That hasn't happened. The loan window might provide limited relief but then there are the declining attendances.

 

Last season I said the objective was to finish 10 points ahead of relegation as administration was all but inevitable and preperations were being made and got dogs abuse. It turned out that only a policy of total desperation, taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers staved it off. That trick can no longer be pulled. The heavy losses are still there and now there are apparently not even enough sales left in the locker to meet the requirements of the business plan, which I understood to be £4m in revenue by yesterday, substantial reduction of the wage bill and 20,000 gates.

 

Much more of this and there can only be one outcome. This team is going to tank in the league, even if it holds up in the short term on confidence and adrenaline there is an impossibly long and bitter winter in prospect.

 

If the club finishes the season in this division and solvent it can only be because of substantial outside investment. Lowe and Wilde are just treading water, trying to avoid drowning while they wait for a man with a lifebelt to turn up. The pr offensive and young player thing is a sales pitch, nothing more and nothing less. If that sales pitch fails then nothing can stop the club going into administration. Ironically, that is the point at which investment becomes more likely because the whole club could be picked up for a song without debt.

[NickG]

those players will be lucky to be earning £1,000pw. 18 year olds at Strasbourg are on apprentice money. Pulis has been toted round every club by his dad, he has hardly played a game for any of them, and as for first team games.......

 

Same with the spurs kid, he is a first year pro, very lucky to be earning £1,000pw.

 

The club needs to fill a team sheet and these are absolutely the cheapest bodies around to do it.

 

The club needed to raise £4m in player sales by the end of the window and reducce the wage bill substantially. That hasn't happened. The loan window might provide limited relief but then there are the declining attendances.

 

Last season I said the objective was to finish 10 points ahead of relegation as administration was all but inevitable and preperations were being made and got dogs abuse. It turned out that only a policy of total desperation, taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers staved it off. That trick can no longer be pulled. The heavy losses are still there and now there are apparently not even enough sales left in the locker to meet the requirements of the business plan, which I understood to be £4m in revenue by yesterday, substantial reduction of the wage bill and 20,000 gates.

 

Much more of this and there can only be one outcome. This team is going to tank in the league, even if it holds up in the short term on confidence and adrenaline there is an impossibly long and bitter winter in prospect.

 

If the club finishes the season in this division and solvent it can only be because of substantial outside investment. Lowe and Wilde are just treading water, trying to avoid drowning while they wait for a man with a lifebelt to turn up. The pr offensive and young player thing is a sales pitch, nothing more and nothing less. If that sales pitch fails then nothing can stop the club going into administration. Ironically, that is the point at which investment becomes more likely because the whole club could be picked up for a song without debt.

 

doh..

[eelpie]

 

And just a few penalty points deducted like Luton.

 

No thanks.

[aintforever]

those players will be lucky to be earning £1,000pw. 18 year olds at Strasbourg are on apprentice money. Pulis has been toted round every club by his dad, he has hardly played a game for any of them, and as for first team games.......

 

Same with the spurs kid, he is a first year pro, very lucky to be earning £1,000pw.

 

The club needs to fill a team sheet and these are absolutely the cheapest bodies around to do it.

 

The club needed to raise £4m in player sales by the end of the window and reducce the wage bill substantially. That hasn't happened. The loan window might provide limited relief but then there are the declining attendances.

 

Last season I said the objective was to finish 10 points ahead of relegation as administration was all but inevitable and preperations were being made and got dogs abuse. It turned out that only a policy of total desperation, taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers staved it off. That trick can no longer be pulled. The heavy losses are still there and now there are apparently not even enough sales left in the locker to meet the requirements of the business plan, which I understood to be £4m in revenue by yesterday, substantial reduction of the wage bill and 20,000 gates.

 

Much more of this and there can only be one outcome. This team is going to tank in the league, even if it holds up in the short term on confidence and adrenaline there is an impossibly long and bitter winter in prospect.

 

If the club finishes the season in this division and solvent it can only be because of substantial outside investment. Lowe and Wilde are just treading water, trying to avoid drowning while they wait for a man with a lifebelt to turn up. The pr offensive and young player thing is a sales pitch, nothing more and nothing less. If that sales pitch fails then nothing can stop the club going into administration. Ironically, that is the point at which investment becomes more likely because the whole club could be picked up for a song without debt.

 

The club can fill a team sheet at the moment, if were that close to admin the bank wouldn't allow us to spend 1.5mill euros on an untried French kid and bring in players like Pulis - if things were that bad we would use the kids already at the club.

[VectisSaint]

im more worried that this is yet (gasmi) another player who JVP hasnt even seen play...

 

from the OS...."we have heard alot about him from france"

Should we be worried that JVP has not seen him play? Who is JVP anyway?

[saintwarwick]

Rasiak, Saganowski, Safri and Viafara were all popular with various supporters. Add to that John, Skacel and BWP not being in the first team much and there are several reasons why people might not be so inclided to part with £20+ every weekend.

 

I would of preferred to have kept Saganowski, Safri and Viafara and would like Skacel to play but I haven't stopped going because they have gone or not played (believe Skacel is injured anyway). Players come and go at all clubs so I don't get your point.

[aintforever]

I would of preferred to have kept Saganowski, Safri and Viafara and would like Skacel to play but I haven't stopped going because they have gone or not played (believe Skacel is injured anyway). Players come and go at all clubs so I don't get your point.

 

If you sell players people want to pay to watch, you will get less people paying to watch. I think that's his point.

[ottery st mary]

There is light at the end of the tunnel and all will be well if only we can finish building the damn thing before the workers go on strike in a stream towards the exit singing the Rivers of Babylon and still no one to Bale us out etc etc

[alpine_saint]

those players will be lucky to be earning £1,000pw. 18 year olds at Strasbourg are on apprentice money. Pulis has been toted round every club by his dad, he has hardly played a game for any of them, and as for first team games.......

 

Same with the spurs kid, he is a first year pro, very lucky to be earning £1,000pw.

 

The club needs to fill a team sheet and these are absolutely the cheapest bodies around to do it.

 

The club needed to raise £4m in player sales by the end of the window and reducce the wage bill substantially. That hasn't happened. The loan window might provide limited relief but then there are the declining attendances.

 

Last season I said the objective was to finish 10 points ahead of relegation as administration was all but inevitable and preperations were being made and got dogs abuse. It turned out that only a policy of total desperation, taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers staved it off. That trick can no longer be pulled. The heavy losses are still there and now there are apparently not even enough sales left in the locker to meet the requirements of the business plan, which I understood to be £4m in revenue by yesterday, substantial reduction of the wage bill and 20,000 gates.

 

Much more of this and there can only be one outcome. This team is going to tank in the league, even if it holds up in the short term on confidence and adrenaline there is an impossibly long and bitter winter in prospect.

 

If the club finishes the season in this division and solvent it can only be because of substantial outside investment. Lowe and Wilde are just treading water, trying to avoid drowning while they wait for a man with a lifebelt to turn up. The pr offensive and young player thing is a sales pitch, nothing more and nothing less. If that sales pitch fails then nothing can stop the club going into administration. Ironically, that is the point at which investment becomes more likely because the whole club could be picked up for a song without debt.

 

Post of the Year... Agree completely.

[PokingFun]

Post of the Year... Agree completely.

 

What you agree with someone posting complete speculation on our finances with absolutely no factual foundation attached to it?

 

Do you think we would buy a couple of players and get in a couple of loans if the terms under which we were doing it were not acceptable to our bankers?

 

Lowe would simply not sanction that at all so maybe, just maybe, he has the ship on an even financial keel for now with the cost cutting that has happened so far. I expect to still see some high earners loaned out during the loan window.

 

My feeling is that we are keeping within some guidelines set by the bank. They have probably told us so long as you stay within a budget / plan of £x then we will continue to offer support. There is probably a short and medium term plan in place which Lowe is working to.

[Gemmel]

What you agree with someone posting complete speculation on our finances with absolutely no factual foundation attached to it?

 

Do you think we would buy a couple of players and get in a couple of loans if the terms under which we were doing it were not acceptable to our bankers?

 

Lowe would simply not sanction that at all so maybe, just maybe, he has the ship on an even financial keel for now with the cost cutting that has happened so far. I expect to still see some high earners loaned out during the loan window.

 

My feeling is that we are keeping within some guidelines set by the bank. They have probably told us so long as you stay within a budget / plan of £x then we will continue to offer support. There is probably a short and medium term plan in place which Lowe is working to.

 

 

That all makes sense, but we had been touting these players, the Echo (I know I know) had these players as all but gone...well certainly bwp and Skatchel, so i cant help but think something went wrong.

 

I could be wrong and hope i am, but it doesnt make sense (To me) that are highest earners, who arent being played are still around.

[Arizona]

I would of preferred to have kept Saganowski, Safri and Viafara and would like Skacel to play but I haven't stopped going because they have gone or not played (believe Skacel is injured anyway). Players come and go at all clubs so I don't get your point.

 

Everyone has favourite players who they look forward to watching more than the others. Whilst I don't think people refuse to watch Saints now many of them have gone, it could just be that people who aren't really "die hard" fans think "actually, I don't think I'll bother this week" a bit more often, hence the drop in crowds.

 

I don't think it's a case of people refusing to go, so much as people not having an incentive to go as often.

[Arizona]

It's called the academy and takes at least £5m, probably more actually, to run.

 

No freakin' way.

 

I've heard various figures on here form £1-2m pa. If the accademy cost more than half what you are suggesting, they'd have shut it down by now.

 

No club is going to bankrupt itself for the sake of an accademy.

[buctootim]

No freakin' way.

 

I've heard various figures on here form £1-2m pa. If the accademy cost more than half what you are suggesting, they'd have shut it down by now.

 

No club is going to bankrupt itself for the sake of an accademy.

 

Would be interesting to see a 'balance sheet' for the academy - how much it has cost to run over the years against the value of the players it has produced.

Edited 3 September, 2008 by buctootim

[EdgarAllanPoe]

The club can fill a team sheet at the moment, if were that close to admin the bank wouldn't allow us to spend 1.5mill euros on an untried French kid and bring in players like Pulis - if things were that bad we would use the kids already at the club.

 

The club agreed with the bank a plan. That called for expensive players to be sold and cheap ones with a possible resale value to be signed. Basically, allowing the club to operate as a business, remain competitive and therefore be a going concern that could potentially attract investment. The bank eventually wants it's money back and it's two concerns are to stop the club digging the hole they are in any deeper whilst not completely decimating the business.

 

Targets will be set for the business plan. We've heard that the plan calls for £4m in sales, and I believe that story ran in the Echo many times without challenge. We've also heard that the club must break even on operating expenses which calls for 20,000 gates. (This would mean no operating loss, not real profitability or break even, just breaking even before tax and other expenses like outstanding installments on transfer fees).

 

Now the concern has to be that sales were not achieved. The club clearly sidelined a few players to make it absolutely clear they were going to attract interest and deny the players valuable appearance payments, thereby reducing their wages and forcing them to think again about any offers.

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. Also, the promising performances of a zestful young team to date are petering out into the inevitable conclusion, loss of confidence, loss of form, lack of strength to actually force results. It's easy to play good football on a big pitch against a good team who like to play in August. Its another to beat them. Its still another to beat teams like Blackpool, who had two good goals ruled out whilst dominating the match.

 

There is a looming crisis. It's not said for the joy of it obviously, it needs to be said because its true. We might see a few more promising performances for the team over the next few weeks but this only goes one way eventually, both financially and results wise.

[alpine_saint]

What you agree with someone posting complete speculation on our finances with absolutely no factual foundation attached to it?

 

Do you think we would buy a couple of players and get in a couple of loans if the terms under which we were doing it were not acceptable to our bankers?

 

Lowe would simply not sanction that at all so maybe, just maybe, he has the ship on an even financial keel for now with the cost cutting that has happened so far. I expect to still see some high earners loaned out during the loan window.

 

My feeling is that we are keeping within some guidelines set by the bank. They have probably told us so long as you stay within a budget / plan of £x then we will continue to offer support. There is probably a short and medium term plan in place which Lowe is working to.

 

And this set of guidelines accounts for attendances of only 15,000, does it ?

[Saint Bones]

And this set of guidelines accounts for attendances of only 15,000, does it ?

 

I'd hope thats not our avg attendance. - Taking note it was a Televised match. The match before against Birmingham.

 

 

Southampton Vs Birmingham 18,925 -English League Championship

 

So almost a 4k difference. - Hopefully the Birmingham game is more the norm.

[alpine_saint]

I'd hope thats not our avg attendance. - Taking note it was a Televised match. The match before against Birmingham.

 

 

Southampton Vs Birmingham 18,925 -English League Championship

 

So almost a 4k difference. - Hopefully the Birmingham game is more the norm.

 

I think you are probably right, but consider the fact that the Brum game was the first of the season, where fans (esp. of SFC) are at their most optimistic. Also, does the fee from SKy compensate us for 4000+ missing fans ?

 

It is essential that the team start delivering results to grind that attendance back up. I am pretty certain 19,000 is still below the figure used to base calculations on. Its all very well for certain individuals to whine on permanently about fickle fans, but that's the nature of the beast and they have to deal with it, especially in times of high inflation, high mortgages and job uncertainty.

 

This experiment cannot be given almost open-ended time to come to fruition, whatever the optimists say...

[teamsaint]

My guess on the finances is that the much touted £4m figure would basically reduce the overdraft to around zero.

 

What really matters in the short /medium term is being cash positive, whichmay be rather more achievable, especially if we vcan yet loan out a couple of big earners.

the bank may well be content to wait till jan to get the O/D down.

 

As for gates of 20000 +, they would have to cut prices dramatically.Or get in the top 6.

[Wes Tender]

I'd hope thats not our avg attendance. - Taking note it was a Televised match. The match before against Birmingham.

 

 

Southampton Vs Birmingham 18,925 -English League Championship

 

So almost a 4k difference. - Hopefully the Birmingham game is more the norm.

 

And let's not forget the number of fans that Brum brought down for that match. How many of that 4k difference was Brum fans? Quite a few, I'd say. Attendances in future aren't just down to how well we play; they also depend on the rival club's ticket take up, which will also depend on the distance to here, how that club is faring and its general level of support.

 

For whatever reason, whether it be the return of Lowe/Wilde, selling off the quality, playing the youngsters, ticket prices, the credit crunch, etc, it is plain that we will require attandances at a certain level to sustain our financial position even in these straitened circumstances. It does appear that unless things pick up in the next few weeks, we are well short of that attendance figure, so our debts will increase.

[saintwarwick]

those players will be lucky to be earning £1,000pw. 18 year olds at Strasbourg are on apprentice money. Pulis has been toted round every club by his dad, he has hardly played a game for any of them, and as for first team games.......

 

Same with the spurs kid, he is a first year pro, very lucky to be earning £1,000pw.

 

The club needs to fill a team sheet and these are absolutely the cheapest bodies around to do it.

 

The club needed to raise £4m in player sales by the end of the window and reducce the wage bill substantially. That hasn't happened. The loan window might provide limited relief but then there are the declining attendances.

 

Last season I said the objective was to finish 10 points ahead of relegation as administration was all but inevitable and preperations were being made and got dogs abuse. It turned out that only a policy of total desperation, taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers staved it off. That trick can no longer be pulled. The heavy losses are still there and now there are apparently not even enough sales left in the locker to meet the requirements of the business plan, which I understood to be £4m in revenue by yesterday, substantial reduction of the wage bill and 20,000 gates.

 

Much more of this and there can only be one outcome. This team is going to tank in the league, even if it holds up in the short term on confidence and adrenaline there is an impossibly long and bitter winter in prospect.

 

If the club finishes the season in this division and solvent it can only be because of substantial outside investment. Lowe and Wilde are just treading water, trying to avoid drowning while they wait for a man with a lifebelt to turn up. The pr offensive and young player thing is a sales pitch, nothing more and nothing less. If that sales pitch fails then nothing can stop the club going into administration. Ironically, that is the point at which investment becomes more likely because the whole club could be picked up for a song without debt.

 

It appears you were totally wrong on the highlighted part :shock: which makes the rest of your post irrelevent because it is all speculation, unless you can post some facts via links. I await your factual reply.

[saintwarwick]

If you sell players people want to pay to watch, you will get less people paying to watch. I think that's his point.

 

I guess Real Madrid will regret selling Robinho then.

[Window Cleaner]

I guess Real Madrid will regret selling Robinho then.

 

Doubt it, they're probably building up a few unknowns from Brazil and Argentina

at this very moment. These will be "signed" in the January transfer window

after long protracted negociations and will-he-won't he meanderings.

They will them be paraded at Bernabeu with shirts (which fans will rush out to buy even if they've already 15 others in a box at the back of a cupboard) The said players will either then take 3 years to make the grade or sold to

Blackburn in a years time.It's what they do, they create myths that people want to see, Beckham was pretty bad at Madrid,but......

[eelpie]

The club agreed with the bank a plan. That called for expensive players to be sold and cheap ones with a possible resale value to be signed. Basically, allowing the club to operate as a business, remain competitive and therefore be a going concern that could potentially attract investment. The bank eventually wants it's money back and it's two concerns are to stop the club digging the hole they are in any deeper whilst not completely decimating the business.

 

Targets will be set for the business plan. We've heard that the plan calls for £4m in sales, and I believe that story ran in the Echo many times without challenge. We've also heard that the club must break even on operating expenses which calls for 20,000 gates. (This would mean no operating loss, not real profitability or break even, just breaking even before tax and other expenses like outstanding installments on transfer fees).

 

Now the concern has to be that sales were not achieved. The club clearly sidelined a few players to make it absolutely clear they were going to attract interest and deny the players valuable appearance payments, thereby reducing their wages and forcing them to think again about any offers.

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. Also, the promising performances of a zestful young team to date are petering out into the inevitable conclusion, loss of confidence, loss of form, lack of strength to actually force results. It's easy to play good football on a big pitch against a good team who like to play in August. Its another to beat them. Its still another to beat teams like Blackpool, who had two good goals ruled out whilst dominating the match.

 

There is a looming crisis. It's not said for the joy of it obviously, it needs to be said because its true. We might see a few more promising performances for the team over the next few weeks but this only goes one way eventually, both financially and results wise.

 

This is a good resume. Clearly appearance payments need to be sorted out. (I am still amazed that players on a very high wage for doing nothing can get even more for actually walking onto the pitch - what a crazy world). The fact is that we need the experienced players, and they need to rebuild their careers. They are going nowhere while they are perceived by the rest of the footballing world as under-performers. Nor are Saints.

[alpine_saint]

The club agreed with the bank a plan. That called for expensive players to be sold and cheap ones with a possible resale value to be signed. Basically, allowing the club to operate as a business, remain competitive and therefore be a going concern that could potentially attract investment. The bank eventually wants it's money back and it's two concerns are to stop the club digging the hole they are in any deeper whilst not completely decimating the business.

 

Targets will be set for the business plan. We've heard that the plan calls for £4m in sales, and I believe that story ran in the Echo many times without challenge. We've also heard that the club must break even on operating expenses which calls for 20,000 gates. (This would mean no operating loss, not real profitability or break even, just breaking even before tax and other expenses like outstanding installments on transfer fees).

 

Now the concern has to be that sales were not achieved. The club clearly sidelined a few players to make it absolutely clear they were going to attract interest and deny the players valuable appearance payments, thereby reducing their wages and forcing them to think again about any offers.

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. Also, the promising performances of a zestful young team to date are petering out into the inevitable conclusion, loss of confidence, loss of form, lack of strength to actually force results. It's easy to play good football on a big pitch against a good team who like to play in August. Its another to beat them. Its still another to beat teams like Blackpool, who had two good goals ruled out whilst dominating the match.

 

There is a looming crisis. It's not said for the joy of it obviously, it needs to be said because its true. We might see a few more promising performances for the team over the next few weeks but this only goes one way eventually, both financially and results wise.

 

 

Another good post, though it doesnt even touch on the effect on attendance of the "petering out" of the teams performance.

 

The plan Lowe agreed with the bank is full of holes big enough to steer the Titanic (another sinking ship) through.

[EdgarAllanPoe]

It appears you were totally wrong on the highlighted part :shock: which makes the rest of your post irrelevent because it is all speculation, unless you can post some facts via links. I await your factual reply.

 

If you had managed to struggle down to the next sentence you would have seen it. Administration was staved off by taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers, a policy of robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

This is factual, we know it happened because it is in the accounts. Look it up. Are you saying that avoiding administration would have been possible without those millions? I would like some of what you are smoking if so. The company was on a collision course with administration exactly as I said, at a time when people were in absolute denial, a place many people remain.

[alpine_saint]

if you had managed to struggle down to the next sentence you would have seen it. Administration was staved off by taking much reduced payments on outstanding transfers, a policy of robbing peter to pay paul.

 

This is factual, we know it happened because it is in the accounts. Look it up. Are you saying that avoiding administration would have been possible without those millions? I would like some of what you are smoking if so. The company was on a collision course with administration exactly as i said, at a time when people were in absolute denial, a place many people remain.

 

lol

[JohnnyFartPants]

lol

 

Does that mean you cannot deny it so wish to try a smug ending to your losing argument?

[Third Division South Days]

I suspect the budgeted gate figure is probably around 18000. It was clear even pre the RL and MW return that season ticket sales were going to drop my several thousand and, despite the rhetoric, a mid table finish would be the most optimistic of season outcomes.

 

Decent cup runs will probably be needed to acheive the required adequate attendances though that would not have been budgeted for.

[Carlos Fandango]

I think you are probably right, but consider the fact that the Brum game was the first of the season, where fans (esp. of SFC) are at their most optimistic. Also, does the fee from SKy compensate us for 4000+ missing fans ?

 

It is essential that the team start delivering results to grind that attendance back up. I am pretty certain 19,000 is still below the figure used to base calculations on. Its all very well for certain individuals to whine on permanently about fickle fans, but that's the nature of the beast and they have to deal with it, especially in times of high inflation, high mortgages and job uncertainty.

 

This experiment cannot be given almost open-ended time to come to fruition, whatever the optimists say...

 

What makes you think the current strategy is an experiment? I would say it's more like an excercise in making the most of what you have. Giving millions to Burley in a gamble on promotion, now there's an experiment for you.

[NickG]

Another good post, though it doesnt even touch on the effect on attendance of the "petering out" of the teams performance.

 

The plan Lowe agreed with the bank is full of holes big enough to steer the Titanic (another sinking ship) through.

 

We are all concerned but once again this post is based on what?

 

I would suggest that the contacts at the bank who handle us are quite senior due to

1) size of business

2) current financial difficulties we are in

3) high profile of football clients.

 

This business plan agreed would have been agreed with

Lowe - whatever we think of him been involved in this for a while

Cowen -seems well thought of by even Lowe's enemies as good finance man

our accountants

the bank

 

And yet you, without ever seeing our accounts, the plan or knowing a single thing about our finances other than the press stuff have identified the plan is

"full of holes big enough to steer the Titanic (another sinking ship) through"

[alpine_saint]

What makes you think the current strategy is an experiment? I would say it's more like an excercise in making the most of what you have. Giving millions to Burley in a gamble on promotion, now there's an experiment for you.

 

Poortvillet and Wotte have no track record in English football, most of our players are kids with no experience, and we are trying to implement a revolutionary style of play for the CCC. It's an experiment.

 

Burley is supposed to be a proven manager with a good track record of building leading teams to the playoffs (if not actually winning them...) - much less of an experiment (on paper, at least...)

[alpine_saint]

We are all concerned but once again this post is based on what?

 

I would suggest that the contacts at the bank who handle us are quite senior due to

1) size of business

2) current financial difficulties we are in

3) high profile of football clients.

 

This business plan agreed would have been agreed with

Lowe - whatever we think of him been involved in this for a while

Cowen -seems well thought of by even Lowe's enemies as good finance man

our accountants

the bank

 

And yet you, without ever seeing our accounts, the plan or knowing a single thing about our finances other than the press stuff have identified the plan is

"full of holes big enough to steer the Titanic (another sinking ship) through"

 

 

So you think Lowe and Cowen didnt have to give projected attendance figures as part of their master plan, then ?

[NickG]

where did I say that?

I asked how you know this plan is full of holes?

[up and away]

The club agreed with the bank a plan. That called for expensive players to be sold and cheap ones with a possible resale value to be signed. Basically, allowing the club to operate as a business, remain competitive and therefore be a going concern that could potentially attract investment. The bank eventually wants it's money back and it's two concerns are to stop the club digging the hole they are in any deeper whilst not completely decimating the business.

 

Targets will be set for the business plan. We've heard that the plan calls for £4m in sales, and I believe that story ran in the Echo many times without challenge. We've also heard that the club must break even on operating expenses which calls for 20,000 gates. (This would mean no operating loss, not real profitability or break even, just breaking even before tax and other expenses like outstanding installments on transfer fees).

 

Now the concern has to be that sales were not achieved. The club clearly sidelined a few players to make it absolutely clear they were going to attract interest and deny the players valuable appearance payments, thereby reducing their wages and forcing them to think again about any offers.

 

Unfortunately, it didn't work. Also, the promising performances of a zestful young team to date are petering out into the inevitable conclusion, loss of confidence, loss of form, lack of strength to actually force results. It's easy to play good football on a big pitch against a good team who like to play in August. Its another to beat them. Its still another to beat teams like Blackpool, who had two good goals ruled out whilst dominating the match.

 

There is a looming crisis. It's not said for the joy of it obviously, it needs to be said because its true. We might see a few more promising performances for the team over the next few weeks but this only goes one way eventually, both financially and results wise.

 

The overall direction of your posts here look sound, but a few interesting points. The bank will not be funding the acquisition of prospects like Schneiderlin. They have already seen that theory crash and burn with Saga, with what looked a cast iron case at the time. We must be getting help from outside the PLC here. What success has Lowe had with restructuring our current / impending debts? If this has been converted into a longer term loan then there is a small chance. But our inability to move on high earners, recover significant fees and diminishing gates paint a very bleak future.

 

As I see it, our only chance lies with being able to restructuring our current / impending debts and get the bank / someone to buy into the plan that we can develop the youth to enable financial salvation. In the current economic situation that is a very big ask. It would not surprise me if that figure of £4M is not on the low side, but if we can manage to pull in around £3M investment, we may have a fighting chance of getting out of the mess.

 

Such a pity and so very avoidable, but this is where we find ourselves. For the first time in a long while, I actually feel a pride and connection with our team on the pitch. Under no illusions that being in this league next year will be a big ask, but hopeful of a play off spot the following season, if we can keep enough of them.

[alpine_saint]

So you think Lowe and Cowen didnt have to give projected attendance figures as part of their master plan, then ?

 

where did I say that?

I asked how you know this plan is full of holes?

 

:rolleyes:

[NickG]

right, will try to make this simple,

 

alpine,

what is the financial plan you are criticising? ( detail please)

 

what are the holes in it?

 

how did you manage to spot these when the accountants and bank managers didn't?

 

thanks

[VectisSaint]

This is factual, we know it happened because it is in the accounts. Look it up. Are you saying that avoiding administration would have been possible without those millions? I would like some of what you are smoking if so. The company was on a collision course with administration exactly as I said, at a time when people were in absolute denial, a place many people remain.

How is this factual or how is a bad idea? If you are referring to walcot, restructuring the original transfer made a lot of sense, it will be many years before he has made enough competitive interntaional appearances to warrant any additional payments, if he ever does. So that was £2m which we may have never seen. If you are referring to Bale, there have been no accounts published that contain such figures, we probably won't see them until October.

 

While I agree with a lot of what you say, much of what you try to pretend is factual is actually just nonsense you made up, still I guess given your username we should not expect anything else.

[moonraker]

It seems that the whole debt scenario revolves around the bank. My understanding of most football clubs who have gone into administration is that it is A N Other creditor (the tax man, laundry caterers,) who call in the debts and force administration, the bank would gain little from administration especially where a business still has a marketable product. So whilst unaware of the facts it seems to me that an acceptable plan has been put in place and that in all likelihood the plan is based on a number of scenarios including various levels of attendance.

[alpine_saint]

right, will try to make this simple,

 

alpine,

what is the financial plan you are criticising? ( detail please)

 

what are the holes in it?

 

how did you manage to spot these when the accountants and bank managers didn't?

 

thanks

 

Jesus H F**king Christ....

 

How the hell are accountants and bank managers to know whether Lowe and Cowen have planned for realistic attendance figures in their proposed budgets and plans ? Maybe Lowe and Cowen were clueless too.

[Window Cleaner]

Jesus H F**king Christ....

 

How the hell are accountants and bank managers to know whether Lowe and Cowen have planned for realistic attendance figures in their proposed budgets and plans ? Maybe Lowe and Cowen were clueless too.

 

They could have given you a bell then Alpine, you'd have set them sttrrraight

right.

[NickG]

Another good post, though it doesnt even touch on the effect on attendance of the "petering out" of the teams performance.

 

The plan Lowe agreed with the bank is full of holes big enough to steer the Titanic (another sinking ship) through.

 

right, will try to make this simple,

 

alpine,

what is the financial plan you are criticising? ( detail please)

 

what are the holes in it?

 

how did you manage to spot these when the accountants and bank managers didn't?

 

thanks

 

your point, politely asking you to explain by answering my questions please?