Dave Jones and other NDAs

[bolo]

I still stand by the fact that the court case kept him in the Saints job for far longer than he should have been. We were crap the last 2 months he was here. Then the whole court case appeared and Lowe couldn't be seen to sack a man under stress. The whole hoodle interim manager thing was not handled well granted...

[hughieslastminutegoal]

I wouldn't say his praise for Rupert was "strong" - there are parts in the book when he is quite critical. One instance mentioned was just before the start of last season, after ringing Rupert up to enquire after a Saints player Lowe had boasted that "with his youth Saints were going to storm the league". Jones found that quite amusing I gather.

 

I think what is frustrating for some of us though Duncan is a quite simple fact... There are plenty of reasons to dislike Lowe... but its when every point mentioned is twisted into some sort of rational to hate him... the above is a prime example... in footballing terms an obvious mistake born out of arogance and perhaps naiviety or just bravado/confidence' date=' but its not evil, I cant hate someone for making mistakes even if they dont learn from them - I guess there are plenty of us who still do the same stupid things day-to day despite the problems they cause us! This is only a minor instant, but its a good example of how fans are a very opinionated and scornful bunch - once the opinion is formed, nothing will change it and every little thing is treated as ....another example of failure and a reason for a qualty slagging.. IMHO[/quote']

 

I don’t get why you say FF’s comment is a prime example of is twisting something into some sort of rational to hate Lowe.

 

You surprise me when you say that Lowe’s making such an obvious mistake in footballing terms, was born out of arrogance or naivity or just bravado, as if somehow that makes the mistake ok. This buffoon had been in charge of a premiere league club for a decade for goodness sake, so should not make naïve mistakes. Making a bravado statement can be alright but in this case he was justifying a stupid course of action. Making such an obvious mistake clearly doesn’t make him evil, but it does make him thoroughly incompetent when it comes to calling the shots at a football club. Hate is strong term. Maybe we shouldn’t hate him for doing what he thought was right, but he does deserve to be a lampooned for being so foolish, and strongly disliked for what ultimately followed.

[Noodles34]

Ok i got the title wrong. **** me, i just read the article from an older thread and remembered it incorrectly.

 

Older thread- http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=14438

 

| retract my apology, (unlike you who can't even give one), you're a ****.

[Alain Perrin]

| retract my apology, (unlike you who can't even give one), you're a ****.

 

I can't remember if Stevo is on my **** list, but regardless, riding him over this is silly. It was ironic and, if you read the Times article Jones himself says:

 

“You know, that is a phrase that I used to use a lot. ‘No smoke without a fire’. It just seems obvious that if there is a controversy surrounding someone, then something has to be wrong. But that is not a phrase you would hear me saying now. I have learnt the hard way that it is possible to be accused without there being a shred of truth."

 

So I'd let it go - but hey I'm an exceptionally tolerant person.

[Alain Perrin]

Much LOLage.

 

Rupert boasted that his young Saints were going to storm the League.

 

And still some people defend the clown.

 

In fairness, after we saw Saints play against Derby or Birmingham early in the season, many thought the same. In fact, my words if I recall were "**** me this might just work".

[um pahars]

I don’t get why you say FF’s comment is a prime example of is twisting something into some sort of rational to hate Lowe.

 

You surprise me when you say that Lowe’s making such an obvious mistake in footballing terms, was born out of arrogance or naivity or just bravado, as if somehow that makes the mistake ok. This buffoon had been in charge of a premiere league club for a decade for goodness sake, so should not make naïve mistakes. Making a bravado statement can be alright but in this case he was justifying a stupid course of action. Making such an obvious mistake clearly doesn’t make him evil, but it does make him thoroughly incompetent when it comes to calling the shots at a football club. Hate is strong term. Maybe we shouldn’t hate him for doing what he thought was right, but he does deserve to be a lampooned for being so foolish, and strongly disliked for what ultimately followed.

 

I agree 100%.

 

Frank continually trots out the line that many of us somehow harbour an irrational hatred of Lowe and for some reason we all think he is the devil incarnate who went out of his way to harm us and our Club. Nothing could be farther from the truth, despite his attempts to portray it as such.

 

It is a rather ignorant and blinkered view, and conveniently ignores that for many of us our dismissiveness of Lowe and the assessment of his tenure is based on cold, hard facts and the reality of his stewardships.

 

The vast majority recognise that he didn't set out to ruin us, but instead believed he was doing the best for the Club (and probably himself at the same time). We judge him as he wanted to be judged in this "results driven business", and against that criteris, then the overall effect of his tenure has been found wanting.

 

As you say, making such mistakes dosnt ake him evil, but it does make him thoroughly incompetent.

[Alain Perrin]

I wouldn't say his praise for Rupert was "strong" - there are parts in the book when he is quite critical. One instance mentioned was just before the start of last season, after ringing Rupert up to enquire after a Saints player Lowe had boasted that "with his youth Saints were going to storm the league". Jones found that quite amusing I gather.

 

If I had the book in front of me I'd quote directly but:

 

- A paragraph on what RL did at Southampton - I paraphrase.... 'I have great admiration for what Rupert achieved at Southampton (despite him not being popular with the fans)'

- I got on well with RL and, you may be surprised, still do. Difficult position in hindsight over the sacking/garden leave. Business decision.

 

To be balanced there are also other annecdotes.

 

- the one you mention

- a story about them watching a match abroad and him saying the player they were scouting was crap (he was apparently watching the no.8 on the wrong side!)

- the argument when he was put on gardening leave.

 

But on balance, that seems like strong praise to me. As a contribution to the historical record I think it is a useful tool - but it depends. Are you from the David Irving school of history?

[Frank's cousin]

I agree 100%.

 

Frank continually trots out the line that many of us somehow harbour an irrational hatred of Lowe and for some reason we all think he is the devil incarnate who went out of his way to harm us and our Club. Nothing could be farther from the truth, despite his attempts to portray it as such.

 

It is a rather ignorant and blinkered view, and conveniently ignores that for many of us our dismissiveness of Lowe and the assessment of his tenure is based on cold, hard facts and the reality of his stewardships.

 

The vast majority recognise that he didn't set out to ruin us, but instead believed he was doing the best for the Club (and probably himself at the same time). We judge him as he wanted to be judged in this "results driven business", and against that criteris, then the overall effect of his tenure has been found wanting.

 

As you say, making such mistakes dosnt ake him evil, but it does make him thoroughly incompetent.

 

That could not be more ****** if it were wrapped in a soft leather sack and swinging between the hind legs of a bull... What has been arrogant and blinkered is your ASSUMPTION that these comments actually include you and your reponse is as always littered with misinterpretations... Can you deny that ON THIS FORUM there have been thousands of posts from posters who simply refuse to acknowledge anything other than Lowe being some sort of giant evil orgre and worse? If you do, it suggests that you only read posts from a few on here whenever this subject is brought up.... Also, I am not having a go at Duncan in that post, merely highlighting that it is exactly the type of thing that is often blown from as you say incompetent decision making (albeit naively in Lowe's brain as in good faith) as some sort of masterplan. You may well be very able to to avoid that sort of ignorant leap, but my comments were and are aimed at those who dont.

[um pahars]

What has been arrogant and blinkered is your ASSUMPTION that these comments actually include you and your reponse is as always littered with misinterpretations...

 

It's the same rubbish that you've been trotting out for ages, and I've lost count of the number of times myself and others have picked you up for it.

 

Your continual line that the majority of people's opposition to Lowe is based on nothing more than an irrational hatred for Lowe and that the anti Lowe argument is nothing more than supporters seeing him as the devil incarnate is risible.

 

You can see everything, but the majority of those who hold a different position to you do so from a position of ignorance, hatred and bloodymindedness. Yeah dream on dinlo.

 

Perhaps you do it so regularly that you don't even realise it.

 

Can you deny that ON THIS FORUM there have been thousands of posts from posters who simply refuse to acknowledge anything other than Lowe being some sort of giant evil orgre and worse?

 

QED

 

LMFAO, so there are literally thousands of posts where people are just blindly and irrationally hating Lowe and believe he is ogre and worse are there????

 

It's got nothing to do with judging him by his record, his legacy and being quite rational and objective about him then????

 

Of course not, only you are able to do that, and those who don't hold Lowe in such high regard only do so for reasons of blind ignorance and hatred:smt078

[Frank's cousin]

It's the same rubbish that you've been trotting out for ages, and I've lost count of the number of times myself and others have picked you up for it.

 

Your continual line that the majority of people's opposition to Lowe is based on nothing more than an irrational hatred for Lowe and that the anti Lowe argument is nothing more than supporters seeing him as the devil incarnate is risible.

 

You can see everything, but the majority of those who hold a different position to you do so from a position of ignorance, hatred and bloodymindedness. Yeah dream on dinlo.

 

Perhaps you do it so regularly that you don't even realise it.

 

 

 

QED

 

LMFAO, so there are literally thousands of posts where people are just blindly and irrationally hating Lowe and believe he is ogre and worse are there????

 

It's got nothing to do with judging him by his record, his legacy and being quite rational and objective about him then????

 

Of course not, only you are able to do that, and those who don't hold Lowe in such high regard only do so for reasons of blind ignorance and hatred:smt078

 

Oh dear.... two things;

 

One: Judging on a record of incompetence and coming to the conclusion he is incompetent is logical and rational - its then comming to the conclusion that he is a C*** or whatever that is irrational and bigotted and you can deny it all you like but these forums are littered with such comment and have been for some years...

 

Two: Never have I said fans are wrong for criticising lowe whenever they believe he has ****ed up again - although yes there have been several occaisons when only onside of teh argument is used to form that opinion and I have had plenty of decent discussion with those willing to enjoy such debate without the need to resort to the oneliners

 

You seem to trying to act as the champion of those who DO come accross as ignorant and prejudiced because they never COMMUNICATE their rational on here, even if ultimately it is based on a thorough analysis - but one line insults do little to contradict that opinion.

 

Oh and you seem to be stalking me again....

[Frank's cousin]

Oh finally 'hold Lowe in high regard' - Thought you had more upstairs than to fall into that category...

 

Like certain others, you seemto read posts and CHOSE what you want to believe to suit your own response rather than accepting some very simple truth.

 

So for the umpteeenth time... Lowe - Never met the bloke so can't comment on him as a person - did some positives during the 10 years, but made a lot of mistakes and eroor of judgement - some of which were theoretically strong, but impossible to implement or simply not pragmatic enough to succeed... having ideas are never bad, its the choice of which to pursue in the conditions that is the difference. Lowe's choices were wrong.

 

Its easy to dismiss something such as SCW as mad and hairbrained - as many did, but the ideas were good IMHO.. but the timing was wrong, so yes overall it was a mistake, but thats the whole point of these forum IMO... instead of just saying it was another crap decision, its acknowledging that there was a good iddea there, but the wrong implementation meant it failed.... not the idea itself. Thats my opinion of Lowe... I LIKE the fact he is not old school and has challenged some of the preconceptions of what should happen in clubs, the focus on youth development, the idea of trying new methods if we could not compete on financial terms - who knows might have had an advantage etc.... HOwever, because of poor implementation and the approach and possibly being crap at gaining support, these things failed, and yes that is how they are ultimately judged... The fact I like the fact we did not BORROW money to pay for wages in players whioch I have neer felt comfortable with is just coincidence as there are many other chairman outthere that do the same, but also many out there that dont... Interpret that as you will...you are bound to anyway...

[um pahars]

One: Judging on a record of incompetence and coming to the conclusion he is incompetent is logical and rational - its then comming to the conclusion that he is a C*** or whatever that is irrational and bigotted and you can deny it all you like but these forums are littered with such comment and have been for some years...

 

Hello, this is a message board and in addition to that football is a passionate game. Expressing how you feel about a player, manager, Director or Chairman in a rather starightforward industrial manner is hardly irrational or bigotted.

 

BWP is not exactly "totally ****** useless" i.e. he has scored a few goals and set up others, but I may have posted or shouted that at some point over the past three years!!!!

 

I (and I'm sure many others) have rationally judged Lowe by his words, deeds and results and have reasonably come to the conclusion that on balance he was a failure (and others may have come to a totally different conclusion from exactly the same analysis, and that is their perogative).

 

If I then go and post on a message board tha Lowe is a *****, it hardly makes my initial assessment wrong.

 

Two: Never have I said fans are wrong for criticising lowe whenever they believe he has ****ed up again - although yes there have been several occaisons when only onside of teh argument is used to form that opinion and I have had plenty of decent discussion with those willing to enjoy such debate without the need to resort to the oneliners

 

But your overall tone (as shown on this thread and noted by others) is that the anti Lowe sentiment is generally irrational and bigotted. Get over yourself, people can rationally form their own opinion.

 

You seem to trying to act as the champion of those who DO come accross as ignorant and prejudiced because they never COMMUNICATE their rational on here' date=' even if ultimately it is based on a thorough analysis - but one line insults do little to contradict that opinion.[/quote']

 

LMFAO at the high and mighty tone of Frank:

 

"You see they're ignorant and prejudiced and never communicate what they think on here, they just post one liners you know!!!!"

 

Myself and others have regularly communicated and outlined why we think the way we do. There have been a number of well reasoned, well thought out and well writeen responses posted on here and other mediums. The very fact that you fail to take that in, ignore it or gloss over it says so much more about you, than it does about those who take the time to articulate their reasons for holding and espousing an opinion you might not agree with.

 

Oh and you seem to be stalking me again....

 

LMFAO, so replying to a post and is stalking is it???

 

Guess what, there's thousands of stalkers on this forum:rolleyes:

Edited 15 July, 2009 by um pahars

[Frank's cousin]

1. If I then go and post on a message board tha Lowe is a *****, it hardly makes my initial assessment wrong.

 

 

2. But your overall tone (as shown on this thread and noted by others) is that the anti Lowe sentiment is generally irrational and bigotted. Get over yourself, people can rationally form their own opinion.

 

 

 

3. LMFAO at the high and mighty tone of Frank:

 

"You see they're ignorant and prejudiced and never communicate what they think on here, they just post one liners you know!!!!"

 

Myself and others have regularly communicated and outlined why we think the way we do. There have been a number of well reasoned, well thought out and well writeen responses posted on here and other mediums. The very fact that you fail to take that in, ignore it or gloss over it says so much more about you, than it does about those who take the time to articulate their reasons for holding and espousing an opinion you might not agree with.

 

 

 

 

1. But the point is you dont... which is why I always found it odd that you sem to defend those who do - and the posts I am critical of.... of course football is a passionate game and we all shout and screem on match days - same as we give abuse to the away fans but we dont generally (thankfully) take it outside - but discussions on the off the field politics, as I am sure you know are perhaps a bit more complex, which is why its kinda useful to avoid that sort of crap.

 

2. People can and will form their own opinions and I have never had any intention of trying to convert anti lowes - I have never felt the desire to as his mistakes mounted he made his own rod... but I DO think there is merit in discussing the pros and cons and also in acknowledging that there were some VERY good ideas that we should simply dismiss just of because who suggested it.... It might not ahve escaped you notice that the groundswell of opinion seemed to be that LOwe should have taken more risks and invested inbetter playesr and wages in the prem...a risky strategy, now the majority feel that the best way is teh more cautious route with stricht financial controls - one which mr Liebherr is likely to adopt...

 

3. Not actually my quote there? why? because you change teh 'tone' - you are right plenty do express their opinions with logic and rational analysis - yet if you want to acuse me of 'high and mightydom, I suggest you lok in the mirrow and notice the patronising hue of most of your own posts when you disagree with someone - pot and kettle mate....:-)

[um pahars]

1. But the point is you dont... which is why I always found it odd that you sem to defend those who do

 

Beacuse I don't take it so literally and can see and acknowledge that when the vast majority of people call Lowe a **** or whatever, it is generally a reaction to the way they felt he let the Club down. After all I don't think there is a general requirement on message boards to justify and explain every outburst of emoition.

 

Calling him a **** or whatever on here doesn't mean they're just footballing tourettes who shout and post things without any rational thought process or any semblence of reasoning.

 

Sometimes people will take a long time highlighting his inadequacies and errors, other times they will just refer to him as a ****. Both get the point acorss in different ways.

 

2. People can and will form their own opinions and I have never had any intention of trying to convert anti lowes - I have never felt the desire to as his mistakes mounted he made his own rod... but I DO think there is merit in discussing the pros and cons and also in acknowledging that there were some VERY good ideas that we should simply dismiss just of because who suggested it....

 

But your continuous tone and line has been that the anti Lowe feeling is less worthy than yours and others, just because in your opinion it isn't articulated as well. It is irrational and bigotted, which couldn't be farther from the truth and in itself is rather irrational and bigotted to position to hold.

 

There's as much merit in being short, shrift and to the point on a footballing message board. This isn't the Oxford Debating Society.

[Frank's cousin]

 

But your continuous tone and line has been that the anti Lowe feeling is less worthy than yours and others, just because in your opinion it isn't articulated as well. It is irrational and bigotted, which couldn't be farther from the truth and in itself is rather irrational and bigotted to position to hold.

 

There's as much merit in being short, shrift and to the point on a footballing message board. This isn't the Oxford Debating Society.

 

Ok I will admit that some of my posts may potentially give that impression, but sorry, I have never tought my opinion is worth more - but rightly or wrongly it is a constant source of frustration that there have been many occasions where there is a refusal, NOT to accept a differeing opinion, but to accept that there are two sides to the same coin... eg. Lowe not spending and money was always a cracker - he spent money from the sales and tiny I believe net spend, some saw this purely as lacking ambition and being crap...or so they posted, and you cant argue that the net result was a decrease in the quality of teh squad relative to those around splashing the cash - which was the main reason for going down...BUT teh flip side is we did spend, just on too many players, but also that there was a strong business argument (if not footballing one) for avoiding the risky investment and borrowings seen at other clubs, yet advocated by many anti-lowers on here... I dont ahve a problem if someone believes its football and a risky investment policy of borrowings is worth it - that is opinion, but there has to be an acceptance that this is not a black or white issue and from business perspectives its very wrong... thats the sort of thing that gets my goat...

 

Also is there anything wrong with being frustrated that when you ask someone to expand or discuss their view teh one liner is the response?

[saint_ben]

True legend he is. Lucky enough to have played for him at saints and cardiff!

[St Steve]

Chicken Leg?

[yellow&blue]

He is going to be at Waterstones in town (not the West Quay one) signing his book in the next few days, not sure when though - I saw it on a poster on the front door today.

[STEVEADAMS]

Totally agree the season was turning into a nightmare and the whole DJ saga never seemed to have an end, i was really worried and action had to be taken albiet i thought it should of happened sooner. That said i liked DJ and what he had to go through was terrible.

[saint1977]

True legend he is. Lucky enough to have played for him at saints and cardiff!

 

Saints academy product?

[saint_ben]

Yes

[JibMcdo]

Thanks for clearing that up... 4 months on.

[Daren W]

He even compared the youngsters under Poortvliet to Ferguson and the youngsters at United to a well placed fan prior to the start of the season:D

 

With Jones, Lowe was in a no win situation and Jones should have got the boot based on his performances when all this blew up anyway.

 

Whatever Lowe did was going to be wrong in someone's eyes.

 

I think if anything the court case actually kept Jones in his job longer than the performances merited. There was a lot of talk that Jones' job was in the balance long before the case came to light.

 

That said he did a good job at Saints and to a certain extent, Hoddle benefited from his keen eye for the transfer market. If you ignore Lee Todd, Scott Marshall and Mark Paul, he had a good eye for Championship talent.

 

A decent man who did a decent job and suffered needlessly.

[Fan The Flames]

I miss Um Parhars, he was a good contributor. This board has lost some really good posters over the years.

[Victor]

That said he did a good job at Saints and to a certain extent, Hoddle benefited from his keen eye for the transfer market. If you ignore Lee Todd, Scott Marshall and Mark Paul, he had a good eye for Championship talent.

 

A decent man who did a decent job and suffered needlessly.

 

Championship talent, maybe - but we were in the Premier league then. Presumably a contributory factor in the direction we were headed, then.

[Hatch]

Do I need to buy the book to find out about the chicken leg?

[Fan The Flames]

I remember DJ on Football Focus when he topped the league of most appreciated purchases in the prem, ie the highest net rise in the worth of transfers in against what he had paid out. So he was doing something right, he was on a blip when Hoddle cam in, but we will never know what would have happened if the court case didn't happen and we stuck by him.

[benjii]

I remember DJ on Football Focus when he topped the league of most appreciated purchases in the prem, ie the highest net rise in the worth of transfers in against what he had paid out. So he was doing something right, he was on a blip when Hoddle cam in, but we will never know what would have happened if the court case didn't happen and we stuck by him.

 

Known in the industry as "Harry's Dream". Maybe.

[Redondo Saint]

Departing managers usually sign an NDA that lasts for three or four years. Stuart Gray's revelation after the expiry of his NDA was that he was sacked too hastily and that he didn't sign Delgado. The shock waves of Gray's revelations are still felt as you can see from the way we've plummeted through the leagues.

 

So if we had not bought Delgado and kept Stuart Gray we would still be in the Premier league?

 

Are you okay?

[up and away]

Originally Posted by Fitzhugh Fella

I wouldn't say his praise for Rupert was "strong" - there are parts in the book when he is quite critical. One instance mentioned was just before the start of last season, after ringing Rupert up to enquire after a Saints player Lowe had boasted that "with his youth Saints were going to storm the league". Jones found that quite amusing I gather.

 

In his first day at Saints he met 3 members of SISA in the car park who virtually threatened him if he ever dropped MLT. He went to say, in his opinion SISA had too big an input in the running of Saints. Quite an odd thing to say I thought.

Much LOLage.

 

Rupert boasted that his young Saints were going to storm the League.

 

And still some people defend the clown.

 

Well looking back to that period and what we had on the youth side, how far it had developed, there's no way that was about the Premier for that season or many to come. The only real star we did develop was Bridge by converting him to LB.

[Dalek2003]

He probably did deserve better, but I still maintain (and in no way would I ever defend RL) that had a decision been made on purely footballing reasons Dave Jones could and should have been sacked that season. We were awful until Hoddle came in.

 

Now the child abuse case may have been a factor in that or it may not, we will never know, but in fairness I think, for the sake of the football club, Lowe did the right thing.

 

I never thought i would read myself having said that...........

 

I like the bit about Hoddle

[mynameisthehulk]

I like the bit about Hoddle

 

Really

[OldNick]

I wouldn't say his praise for Rupert was "strong" - there are parts in the book when he is quite critical. One instance mentioned was just before the start of last season, after ringing Rupert up to enquire after a Saints player Lowe had boasted that "with his youth Saints were going to storm the league". Jones found that quite amusing I gather.

 

Duncan what is wrong for the clubs chairman to be enthusiastic? It was a stupid thing to believe but in the early part of the season had wew won a couple of home games the theory would have looked better.We did well away but just couldnt win at home.

As for bigging players up i suggest we all have done that in the past and been wrong... myself very rarely of course