Pompey Takeover Saga

[JackFrost]

Mr Justice Mann - Frequently seen ruling on high-profile copyright and trademark cases, Mann J has a reputation for being "very bright, but straight to the point". His handling of the Apple Corps v Apple Computers case in May garnered praise, especially the way in which he "cut through all the verbiage and tackled the main points head on". His business-like manner is appreciated by both applicants and defendants alike because "in the commercial world, that's how people operate and clients find it reassuring". One of 5 top judges who have an almost unblemished record on not having judgements overturned at a higher court.

 

No wonder AA is not apparently going to be there. Business like manner ? Nah.

 

That'll be handy when he trawls through the dubious figures in the CVA

[bridge too far]

Mr Justice Mann seems to come down quite heavily on the Insolvency Practitioner business too:

 

http://www.bllaw.co.uk/pdf.aspx?page=14487

 

[South Londoner]

Ok. Just finished checking that the F5 key on my keyboard is fully functional in anticipation of tomorrow's festivities !!

[Barry the Badger]

Why can't the fish ****ers just give up and die. I've had enough of this now.

[Wes Tender]

Manna from heaven?

 

Cometh the hour, cometh the Mann.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Wonder if the News will have a live feed like on 'their last visit'?!

 

ooooh I'm looking forward to this.

 

Rather interesting that Storrie cut his ties with the club at the weekend, no?

[saintjay77]

so the excitement of tomorrow is starting to set in with us, i wonder how twitchy the blue few will be this evening? Surly they cant be as confident as aa of things going well for them?

 

If it were my club awaiting such a big judgement day I would be crapping it! The worst case scenario of your club going out of business and someone like TCWTB heading up the new AFC team to battle its way around the Blue Square league cant be a feeling that anyone would warm to can it?

[sunrise]

They will get away with.... as they have done in the past.

[Spudders]

Rather dissapointed I have to work away tomorrow so will have to wait until the evening to find out the news!

[Crab Lungs]

Is there anything at all stopping me going and viewing this myself? Might be quite funny, a Saints fan twittering on the Skate's demise, live from court...

[Weston Saint]

I would have thought both sides will have been delighted they have the experienced MannJ on the bench. Don't automatically expect a decision tomorrow. I suspect this will go into the second allocated day.

[seaempty]

They will get away with.... as they have done in the past.

Although it goes against all logic and reason, I wouldn't be surprised if they won the appeal tomorrow. Although that's probably just the pessimist in me talking.

[pedg]

I would have thought both sides will have been delighted they have the experienced MannJ on the bench. Don't automatically expect a decision tomorrow. I suspect this will go into the second allocated day.

 

Then extra time and finally penalties?

 

Actually how long it takes depends I suspect on what HMRC want to get out of the hearing. As discussed previously on here there are a few simple questions (why did you add most of the football creditors between the initial CVA document and the meeting, why did you change your mind on the HMRC debt during the same period and why did you not explain when requested why you had withheld some of the HMRC debt?) that could easily win the day for HMRC with the minimum of delay. If however HMRC decide this is the ideal time to try and make progress on both the images rights issue and the football creditors rule then things will take a lot longer.

[Weston Super Saint]

Although it goes against all logic and reason, I wouldn't be surprised if they won the appeal tomorrow. Although that's probably just the pessimist in me talking.

 

Hi Nick

[Channon's Sideburns]

[saintjay77]

Then extra time and finally penalties?

 

Actually how long it takes depends I suspect on what HMRC want to get out of the hearing. As discussed previously on here there are a few simple questions (why did you add most of the football creditors between the initial CVA document and the meeting, why did you change your mind on the HMRC debt during the same period and why did you not explain when requested why you had withheld some of the HMRC debt?) that could easily win the day for HMRC with the minimum of delay. If however HMRC decide this is the ideal time to try and make progress on both the images rights issue and the football creditors rule then things will take a lot longer.

 

It wouldnt suprise me if they didnt tackle something to do with the image rights. Some kind of justification may be sought at how come pompy pay so much out on image rights when the likes of Man U set aside much less for the same type of paymants. They may push this as a way of convincing the powers that be that they are cheating the system all over the place and should not be trusted with what excuses they may come up with.

 

Not sure if this court case is where they can tackle like above but it seems like its something they could be thinking about.

[tony13579]

You should be allowed in. You might have to fight for your place against the press. you are not allowed to record in court. it might pay to disguise your device as a notepad.

get a reporters pad, score out a hollow with a stanley knife.

What I want to know is why you can't operate an iPhone with any thing other than a finger,

 

Edit:

or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnDaiRqlRSE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

how to make an Iphone stylus pen

Edited 2 August, 2010 by tony13579

[pedg]

Here is something to consider, though not too feasible I guess... Say you are chainrai and want to get the club on the cheap. You think you can manage to con the unsecured creditors with 20p in the pound but baulk at the money you will lose paying off the football creditors. So you handy insolvency expert comes up with a cunning plan. Tell the football creditors that you need them to vote in the CVA as otherwise the taxman will win and they might get nothing. Then when the case gets to court try and persuade the judge that, as has been described elsewhere as being possible, by joining in the CVA vote the football creditors have forgone their rights under the FC rule and they have to accept the 20p in the pound like everyone else. Result CVA stands and lots more money from parachute payments to make them a much more tempting buy.

 

Big drawback on this is that AA should have realised that this would happen to the football creditors if they voted and would have been duty bound to tell them. Plus having to avoid the other reasons for the appeal and convince the judge obviously, hence not very likely.

[saintjay77]

Here is something to consider, though not too feasible I guess... Say you are chainrai and want to get the club on the cheap. You think you can manage to con the unsecured creditors with 20p in the pound but baulk at the money you will lose paying off the football creditors. So you handy insolvency expert comes up with a cunning plan. Tell the football creditors that you need them to vote in the CVA as otherwise the taxman will win and they might get nothing. Then when the case gets to court try and persuade the judge that, as has been described elsewhere as being possible, by joining in the CVA vote the football creditors have forgone their rights under the FC rule and they have to accept the 20p in the pound like everyone else. Result CVA stands and lots more money from parachute payments to make them a much more tempting buy.

 

Big drawback on this is that AA should have realised that this would happen to the football creditors if they voted and would have been duty bound to tell them. Plus having to avoid the other reasons for the appeal and convince the judge obviously, hence not very likely.

 

The big thing is still that the football creditors need to get 100% or Poopy are in the Poop with the FA or something. So even if they forgo there Secured 100% status they will still get there 100% which makes them voting for 20p in the pound rather pointless.

 

If they try to argue that one I think they are buggered!

[Crab Lungs]

You should be allowed in. You might have to fight for your place against the press. you are not allowed to record on court. it might pay to disguise your device as a notepad.

get a reporters pad, score out a hollow with a stanley knife.

What I want to know is why you can't operate an iPhone with any thing other than a finger,

 

Edit:

or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnDaiRqlRSE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

how to make an Iphone stylus pen

 

Hmmmm... I was wondering how I'd "report" back. Hmmm, food for thought...

[pedg]

The big thing is still that the football creditors need to get 100% or Poopy are in the Poop with the FA or something. So even if they forgo there Secured 100% status they will still get there 100% which makes them voting for 20p in the pound rather pointless.

 

If they try to argue that one I think they are buggered!

 

I guess the argument is that if they voted they would then have given up any secured status that football creditors rule provided. In that case if they were paid the 20p in the pound then pompey would still be able to keep their golden share? As I said all highly unlikely, nee impossible.

[Gorgiesaint]

Here is something to consider, though not too feasible I guess... Say you are chainrai and want to get the club on the cheap. You think you can manage to con the unsecured creditors with 20p in the pound but baulk at the money you will lose paying off the football creditors. So you handy insolvency expert comes up with a cunning plan. Tell the football creditors that you need them to vote in the CVA as otherwise the taxman will win and they might get nothing. Then when the case gets to court try and persuade the judge that, as has been described elsewhere as being possible, by joining in the CVA vote the football creditors have forgone their rights under the FC rule and they have to accept the 20p in the pound like everyone else. Result CVA stands and lots more money from parachute payments to make them a much more tempting buy.

 

Big drawback on this is that AA should have realised that this would happen to the football creditors if they voted and would have been duty bound to tell them. Plus having to avoid the other reasons for the appeal and convince the judge obviously, hence not very likely.

 

As saintjay77 says: the FL won't provide Pompey with their share to allow then to play in the FL if they don't pay the football creditors 100%. The CVA already produced has already established that the offer is to pay 100% to those creditors, so to deviate from that, would IMO, need a new CVA.

 

What would concern me is that if, as I expect, this CVA is deemed invalid by the court then AA tries with another CVA only paying the football creditors 20p in the pound, but Chainrai secures further debt against the club to pay the football creditors. He will, in effect be using the clubs money to pay the football debts, but because it goes through his own account then it's not illegal. He will then be repaid by the parachute monies a couple of years down the line. The only question is whether there are sufficient parachute monies available to repay Chainrai the £15-20m he's already stumped up plus additional funds to clear the football creditors and keep PFC afloat in the meantime. Thoughts?

Edited 2 August, 2010 by Gorgiesaint

[Gorgiesaint]

It wouldnt suprise me if they didnt tackle something to do with the image rights. Some kind of justification may be sought at how come pompy pay so much out on image rights when the likes of Man U set aside much less for the same type of paymants. They may push this as a way of convincing the powers that be that they are cheating the system all over the place and should not be trusted with what excuses they may come up with.

 

Not sure if this court case is where they can tackle like above but it seems like its something they could be thinking about.

 

I would be surprised if HMRC didn't go in with all guns blazing. Not sure how they would stand if a new CVA were prepared which they then appealed but only then brought up the issues surrounding Pompey's image rights - I would think that they would need to have mentioned them first time round.

[View From The Top]

Although it goes against all logic and reason, I wouldn't be surprised if they won the appeal tomorrow. Although that's probably just the pessimist in me talking.

 

In many ways it doesn't matter. The tranfers ban will still be in force until a new owner is in place and that owner has satisfied the FL.

[saint lard]

Utaka on his way out?...........

 

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11676_6291797,00.html

[benjii]

I guess the argument is that if they voted they would then have given up any secured status that football creditors rule provided. In that case if they were paid the 20p in the pound then pompey would still be able to keep their golden share? As I said all highly unlikely, nee impossible.

 

Complete nonsense

 

The football creditors rule has no legal status. They have no "right" to 100% to give up. The obligation to pay 100% is a burden imposed on member clubs by the FL, it's not a right to receive 100% enjoyed by football creditors. Legally they are not secured creditors at all.

 

NB - there are some complex legal arguments around "liens" etc but generally, the point stands - the FCR is a FL rule not a legal one and they would not accept that a club "gave up" its ability to be paid 100%. I think, in any case, if they were invited to vote and voted they could not be penalised if it turns out they shouldn't have been invited to vote in the first place... that would be the fault of whoever invited them to vote who is the expert at these things.

 

And if any club's plan was to sham the football creditors, assuming it was possible, the FL wouldn't let them back in - simples as that!

 

The FCR is a funny thing. I'm sure HMRC will "win" at some point. It just needs the right case. One with a truly hopeless club at the centre of it; one with no prospects and meagre resources; one that can't find a willing buyer... hmm...

Edited 2 August, 2010 by benjii

[pedg]

Complete nonsense

 

No change for normal then.

[RedArmy]

What are the options if hmrc win their appeal tomorrow? Which one is more likely.

 

Liquidation?

Re-negotiate the CVA, which they probably haven't got the money to do?

Exit admin without a CVA and get assraped by the FL?

[pedg]

What are the options if hmrc win their appeal tomorrow? Which one is more likely.

 

Liquidation?

Re-negotiate the CVA, which they probably haven't got the money to do?

Exit admin without a CVA and get assraped by the FL?

 

For the second assuming the appeal shows HMRC have enough to block the CVA then given their normal stance hard to see how any CVA with less than 100% would be approved.

For the latter they still need to clear their debts or reach an out-of-cva agreement with their creditors to survive.

[Saint_John]

What are the options if hmrc win their appeal tomorrow? Which one is more likely.

 

Liquidation?

Re-negotiate the CVA, which they probably haven't got the money to do?

Exit admin without a CVA and get assraped by the FL?

 

My view is that after the CVA is overturned, then HMRC will push for the removal of Comical Andy from the case and for the Court to appoint another firm (say Griffins) to handle the Admin and then the Liquidation of PCFC after 9 months.

 

There are laws relating to the seizure of assets and if somebody other than Comical Andy was to look at the books in detail, who knows what they will find. It could be they are after certain property in Hayling I, Mayfair and poss Sandbanks and of course those people might be struck off from being Directors again (Remember this is the 7th Company that Gunrunner has had in the UK and most have gone into Admin - I think).

 

IMO HMRC do not care if the Cheats start on zero points or minus 100 points, they want "Mr Big" and to do so they NEED to view the books and do a proper Admin/Liquidation job.

[Faz]

When thye lose, Pompey will stay in administration of rthe rest of the season. Transfer embargo. Parachute payments & player sales will be witheld by the PL/FA to meet Football Creditors and the cost of Adminstration. What is left will go to help the running costs. When that runs out, they're f*cked. IMO.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

When thye lose, Pompey will stay in administration of rthe rest of the season. Transfer embargo. Parachute payments & player sales will be witheld by the PL/FA to meet Football Creditors and the cost of Adminstration. What is left will go to help the running costs. When that runs out, they're f*cked. IMO.

 

I hope you're wrong.

 

I hope they get fecked either tomorrow or Weds. Although that's highly unlikely. Maybe a few steps at a time?

[saint lard]

Some seem so very certain HMRC will win the appeal,in % terms how likely is this, in peoples opinion?

[hypochondriac]

I hope you're wrong.

 

I hope they get fecked either tomorrow or Weds. Although that's highly unlikely. Maybe a few steps at a time?

 

I think if they lose then the option that Faz talks about could happen. They could also come out without a CVA which many of the papers reckoned they would do (including the news.)

[hypochondriac]

Some seem so very certain HMRC will win the appeal,in % terms how likely is this, in peoples opinion?

 

The insolvency guy in the article reckoned that PFC would win.

[hypochondriac]

Mr Justice Mann seems to come down quite heavily on the Insolvency Practitioner business too:

 

http://www.bllaw.co.uk/pdf.aspx?page=14487

 

 

Just so you know guys I know Mike Pavitt who is mentioned at the end of that article. I have emailled him (and someone else from here is seeing him tonight.) I shall let you know if I get any interesting info either on the judge or the case.

[JackFrost]

The insolvency guy in the article reckoned that PFC would win.

 

That wasn't the insolvency guy in The News was it?

[saint lard]

The insolvency guy in the article reckoned that PFC would win.

So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that PFC win,come out of admin,have the embargo lifted and scrape through the coming season with players on loan.

However skint they claim they might be they could still escape relatively lightly in the long term by limping along?

[hypochondriac]

That wasn't the insolvency guy in The News was it?

 

Can't remember. There are sooo many articles!

[hypochondriac]

So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that PFC win,come out of admin,have the embargo lifted and scrape through the coming season with players on loan.

However skint they claim they might be they could still escape relatively lightly in the long term by limping along?

 

I personally would like them to finish one place above the relegation zone this year, then we can come up and smash them 5-0 home and away to condemn them to relegation.

[View From The Top]

So it is not beyond the realms of possibility that PFC win,come out of admin,have the embargo lifted and scrape through the coming season with players on loan.

However skint they claim they might be they could still escape relatively lightly in the long term by limping along?

 

They will not have the embargo lifted until they have a new owner and that owner has satisfied the FL.

 

Tomorrow has f**K all to do with the embargo.

[hypochondriac]

They will not have the embargo lifted until they have a new owner and that owner has satisfied the FL.

 

Tomorrow has f**K all to do with the embargo.

 

If they win tomorrow Chanrai will take control. Apparently he was doing the F&PPT last week so he can assume immediate control. Android will be bleating all over the media to get it off as soon as possible. Remember January? Damn cheats.

[saint lard]

They will not have the embargo lifted until they have a new owner and that owner has satisfied the FL.

 

Tomorrow has f**K all to do with the embargo.

 

I thought that if they win the appeal they can exit administration and therefore the embargo could be lifted,apologise if i'm wrong,

I am easily confused.

[pedg]

This one (sure posted before but useful to post now) is possibly of interest for a more unbias opinion (though it does feature a certain forum regular...)

 

http://footballmanagement.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/portsmouths-continuing-purgatory/

[View From The Top]

If they win tomorrow Chanrai will take control. Apparently he was doing the F&PPT last week so he can assume immediate control. Android will be bleating all over the media to get it off as soon as possible. Remember January? Damn cheats.

 

That doesn't lift the embargo. The Golden Share in the FL is more complex than that.

[saintjay77]

That wasn't the insolvency guy in The News was it?

 

Wasn't that the guy who handled the Leeds adminstration was it? He was asked some questions in the press on pompy's situation. IIRC the questions didn't really open up any serious answers. They spoke about the challenge to the FCR which he thought HMRC wouldn't win cause they didn't before.

 

Don't think they really went into the way aa has been economical with the percentages or the rules on how to go about an administration. Think we all had better questions to ask than the press did.

[saint si]

This one (sure posted before but useful to post now) is possibly of interest for a more unbias opinion (though it does feature a certain forum regular...)

 

http://footballmanagement.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/portsmouths-continuing-purgatory/

 

He's wrong on both counts. There is no legislation to overturn or create.

 

1) hmrc are not looking to overturn the enterprise act. The football creditors rule runs contrary to the existing insolvency legislation when company money is used to prefer some creditors over others. It is just a rule between members of a club.

 

2) there is no "image rights" legislation to overturn. The applicable law is in regard to tax evasion which does not need to be made specific to every possible type of evasion. And anyway, it is not image rights per se they are challenging, but the failure of aa to adhere to due process in the handling of voting rights.

 

Of course the court is the right place to appeal the specific cva. This is just another case of pompey fans playing victim.

[hypochondriac]

That doesn't lift the embargo. The Golden Share in the FL is more complex than that.

 

If they win tomorrow then they will look to get it off ASAP and they will put pressure on through the media and via capable people like Lampitt. They will succeed IMO but as they have no money anyway I expect they will most likely get loans in (probably those decent players in from Spurs). Hopefully this will be academic anyway because they will lose.

[View From The Top]

If they win tomorrow then they will look to get it off ASAP and they will put pressure on through the media and via capable people like Lampitt. They will succeed IMO but as they have no money anyway I expect they will most likely get loans in (probably those decent players in from Spurs). Hopefully this will be academic anyway because they will lose.

 

I don't disagree that they'll try but as we know, the FL league are a different proposition to the EPL and the media outside pompey just won't care now they are outside the EPL bubble.

[suewhistle]

Hmmm, I'm up to the smoke tomorrow and then staying the night with my nephew up there. I was going to go to the British Museum but other fascinating events beckon. If I recall correctly the Chancery courts are in The Strand n'est ce pas? Maybe a quick look in to see the mood of the judge in view of AA's absence and then afternoon at the BM. Any pub recommendations near either the courts or the BM so I can giggle into my Youngs Special or London Pride?