Pompey Takeover Saga

[ericofarabia]

Is it rude to quote myself from 28 days ago?

 

Christ on a bike .... my quoting myself about 2 posts later (see a few posts above here!!) makes your 28 days look like a Tantric Poster God

[ericofarabia]

Skatesmuffs parachute payments ....

 

 

Ummm is that toast or burning parachute I smell ?

[CB Saint]

To put this into footballing terms...

 

It the 91st minute of full time in the FA cup final. The score is one - nil to pompey. HMRC has a corner. Everyone is up for it including the keeper. The HMRC barrister floats one into the box. Everyone rises to meet the ball and it goes.......

 

......To be continued.

 

Will the revenue get extra time or will AA go off into the distance with a big fat win bonus?

 

........ off the head of a clueless administrator and into the back of the net. Pompey now face 3 months of extra time:o

[qwertySFC]

I think so to

[Saint_clark]

Are they still going?

[View From The Top]

The question is as the CVA is not agreed does this mean that the parachute money can not be spent on football debts yet. If they are wound up does that also mean that the football debts become creditors as per everyone else?

 

Parachute money is being held by the FA to pay off football debts. Until then they don't get a penny.

[Doctoroncall]

I fluffing love the Taxman. Not only did I get home from work to hear the news of the appeal, but there was also a letter on my door mat from the HMRC containing a cheque for £710.25, an income tax rebate!

 

However, I think Pompeyscot may have a point. Chanrai was only sticking around to collect the parachute payments to recover his investment, this appeal is bad news for him as it de-values the club and means that his nice little 4p per year CVA may get throw out the window.

No CVA equals points deductions, rubbish squad, rubbish results, even worse crowds than they normally get and likely relegation. Therefore he is less likely to be able generate income to cover running costs during the coming seasons whilst he waits for those parachute payments to fall in his lap.

Now it may make more sense for Chanrai not to regain control of the club following relegation. This leaves the door open for a.n.other (Lloyd's consortium is still sniffing around for a bargain) to come in and take over the club for next to nothing, with no CVA and more importantly no agenda of recouping previous investments. There will be points deducted, but the debts will all have disappeared. Probably a better long term solution for Poopey than Chanrai hanging around.

 

If they want to play in the football league, it doesn't work like that. In both Leeds and Luton cases, the new owners had to stump up more or less the same as was stated in the failed CVA.

 

Maybe AA better get the Conference guys on the phone, but considering how they deal with Clubs in debt (Chester, Weymouth, Salisbury) it will be out of the frying pan into the fire

[Glasgow_Saint]

I love it when a plan comes together!

[eurosaint]

To the tune of the Kinks 'Sunny Afternoon' :

The taxman's taken all my dough, and left me in my old ****hole,

Without a game on a Saturday afternoon,

And I can't even sail my yacht, cos I don't even have a p#sspot,

All I've got is a rejected CVA !

 

Save me, save me, save me from this fate,

Cos I'm only just a slimy, cheating Skate,

And one day soon I'll realise,

just how much I am despised,

and no more games on a Saturday afternoon....

 

Repeat to fade.........

[pedg]

If they want to play in the football league, it doesn't work like that. In both Leeds and Luton cases, the new owners had to stump up more or less the same as was stated in the failed CVA.

 

Maybe AA better get the Conference guys on the phone, but considering how they deal with Clubs in debt (Chester, Weymouth, Salisbury) it will be out of the frying pan into the fire

 

Indeed I can't understand why people think that if things happen without a CVA that the debt will disappear. If you ran up credit card debts you could not pay, offered the card company 20p in the pound but they rejected it would you say 'Ya suckers I'm debt free now'? CVA is a organised way to deal with a debt. If it does not happen then it reverts, as far as I am aware, to a more disorganised debt but still a debt. Without the creditors agreement you can't just say "Look here's 5p in the pound, now toddle off will you". If the administrator sells the company to someone else then I assume the debt goes with it and stays with it til its sorted on way or another?

[qwertySFC]

Irrespective of all the HMRC news today, I want to know the answer to one question, is this still going ahead.

 

http://www.designbuild-network.com/projects/portsmouthstadium/

[Doctoroncall]

Indeed I can't understand why people think that if things happen without a CVA that the debt will disappear. If you ran up credit card debts you could not pay, offered the card company 20p in the pound but they rejected it would you say 'Ya suckers I'm debt free now'? CVA is a organised way to deal with a debt. If it does not happen then it reverts, as far as I am aware, to a more disorganised debt but still a debt. Without the creditors agreement you can't just say "Look here's 5p in the pound, now toddle off will you". If the administrator sells the company to someone else then I assume the debt goes with it and stays with it til its sorted on way or another?

 

Any buyer would be able to negotiate debt repayment with the creditors - they could do it through the administrator or directly I think. I'm not sure how ML/NC did it in our case but that was easy peasy compared to the mess down the road.

[badgerx16]

With apologies to the many who have explained this previously, but in the interests of helping everyone keep up.......

 

If they come out of administration without a CVA, yes.

 

If they are sold in administration, yes.

 

If they just stay in admin for now, no, but transfer embargo stays. So not much of a team.

 

Then there could be financial irregularities later. And that could mean poinys deduction too.

 

Must check the toaster.

 

And of course, if it goes on long enough, they are not permitted to start 2 consecutive seasons in administration.

[hutch]

Just finished trolling through the comments on the skate news website. When you pierce the veil of anger & disappointment, there's quite a lot of resignation and acceptance. They seem to be slowly getting there (apart for the ones who blame it on a Tory conspiracy, think AA is doing a great job for them or that Chainrai - who is on the record as saying he has no interest in owning the club and just wants his money back - would be a great new owner). Good job, Chin, by the way.

 

But a lot of them think they'll win the appeal, because the "image rights" tax is disputed by AA. As I understand the tax situation, the bill is made up as follows (in round figures). They owed £12m in PAYE, VAT & NI at the time of the WUP. That then increased to £17m for some reason (I guess that is "image rights") - then it went to £34m - this I think is the 100% surcharge for non-payment. AA accepted £24m, which I guess is the original £12m + the surcharge, and threw out the "image rights" + surcharge.

 

Now I don't know the ins & outs of the current UK tax system, but my experience in other places is that if the taxman issues you with an assessment, it is due and payable. You can then dispute it, and if you win, you get your money back.

 

So if HMRC issued AA with an assessment for "image rights" and surcharge, it was due and payable unless and until AA successfully overturned it in Court or otherwise. On that basis, at the time of the CVA vote, it was a debt owed and they were entitled to vote.

 

Who commissioned Griffin to prepare the "alternative" CVA? Expect UHY to be replaced before this is all over.

 

It'll be interesting to see what Chainrai does next. I think he was sold a pup (no pun intended). His return is disappearing into the distance, with no player sales worth talking about, the wage bill still through the roof, and a second successive relegation now probably nailed on. He, as a secured creditor, has first bite at the assets in a liquidation, and that might just be more appealing. Depends on how seriously he takes HMRC's earlier threat to challenge his position as a secured creditor.

[Mark]

Pompeyscot is a useful idiot. He's fed bullsh*t to post on his forum and the skates lap it up. Lol

[saint lard]

I am extremely happy right now.

Well played HMRC.

Saying that,they should've had this done and dusted a while back,they had the opportunity in the first court hearing,imo.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Just finished trolling through the comments on the skate news website. When you pierce the veil of anger & disappointment, there's quite a lot of resignation and acceptance. They seem to be slowly getting there (apart for the ones who blame it on a Tory conspiracy, think AA is doing a great job for them or that Chainrai - who is on the record as saying he has no interest in owning the club and just wants his money back - would be a great new owner). Good job, Chin, by the way.

 

But a lot of them think they'll win the appeal, because the "image rights" tax is disputed by AA. As I understand the tax situation, the bill is made up as follows (in round figures). They owed £12m in PAYE, VAT & NI at the time of the WUP. That then increased to £17m for some reason (I guess that is "image rights") - then it went to £34m - this I think is the 100% surcharge for non-payment. AA accepted £24m, which I guess is the original £12m + the surcharge, and threw out the "image rights" + surcharge.

 

Now I don't know the ins & outs of the current UK tax system, but my experience in other places is that if the taxman issues you with an assessment, it is due and payable. You can then dispute it, and if you win, you get your money back.

 

So if HMRC issued AA with an assessment for "image rights" and surcharge, it was due and payable unless and until AA successfully overturned it in Court or otherwise. On that basis, at the time of the CVA vote, it was a debt owed and they were entitled to vote.

 

Who commissioned Griffin to prepare the "alternative" CVA? Expect UHY to be replaced before this is all over.

 

It'll be interesting to see what Chainrai does next. I think he was sold a pup (no pun intended). His return is disappearing into the distance, with no player sales worth talking about, the wage bill still through the roof, and a second successive relegation now probably nailed on. He, as a secured creditor, has first bite at the assets in a liquidation, and that might just be more appealing. Depends on how seriously he takes HMRC's earlier threat to challenge his position as a secured creditor.

 

I'd think that if Mr Chanrai has any sense left at all he will be looking very closely at what the taxman has to say and disregarding what AA says. It would not surprise me to find that Chanrai wants to speak with HMRC or, even, the likes of Griffins!

 

** That is if AA has no 'hold' over Chanrai.

Edited 15 July, 2010 by EastleighSoulBoy
Hit submit!

[Wurzel]

http://www.pompeytrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=166%3Apst-statement-on-hmrc-appeal&catid=34%3Ademo-category

 

 

 

Whilst we at PST do not condone the irresponsible spending by previous owners or the failure to pay tax owed,

 

But you did. You turned up. You paid to watch. You went to Wembley 4 or 5 times. You went into Europe. You revelled in your "success". You were the "Best Fans In The World"™ when things were going your way. You condoned it right up until the **** hit the fan.

 

So don't start ****ing grizzling now.

[Gorgiesaint]

Talking about Pompey now on Danny Kelly's show on Talksport

 

Edit: Tony Evans (Times, I think) 'HMRC want to get their hands on the books'

Danny Kelly 'Well god help them if they do, who know's what they'll find in there'

 

lol

 

General consensus was that HMRC want to make an example of someone - they thought it might have been Cardiff or Southend, but there's only Pompey left to go after

Edited 15 July, 2010 by Gorgiesaint

[hackedoff]

Time to pull on my rubber pants, and p1ss myself with laughter !

[Dark Munster]

Parachute money is being held by the FA to pay off football debts. Until then they don't get a penny.

 

Of course much of the "football debt" belongs to Chainrai, the Ice Cream Dr., and the rest of the motley crew.

[Dark Munster]

Perhaps Chainrai was keen on the idea of flats on Fratton Park all along . . . .

 

That's plan B. Plan A is to get as much of the £48m parachute money as he can.

 

 

 

Allegedly.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Originally Posted by soppyoldsod Perhaps Chainrai was keen on the idea of flats on Fratton Park all along . . . .

That's plan B. Plan A is to get as much of the £48m parachute money as he can.

 

 

 

Allegedly.

 

THEN he starts plan B!

 

 

Oh! no chance of a plan B, he's gonna do a runner.

[hutch]

I'd think that if Mr Chanrai has any sense left at all he will be looking very closely at what the taxman has to say and disregarding what AA says. It would not surprise me to find that Chanrai wants to speak with HMRC or, even, the likes of Griffins!

 

** That is if AA has no 'hold' over Chanrai.

Ignoring your speculative afterthought, Chainrai is between a rock and a hard place. The pup he bought was based on the inflated value of the squad, as immediate cash. He was expecting to have a large part of that in the bank by now, not spunking huge amounts of cash to mercenaries sitting on the beach. In the real world, the administrators need big cash injections to keep going. The parachutes are going to football creditors. We don't know the actual numbers, but the logic is just common sense.

 

What would you do?

[benjii]

What I want to know is what was really Chanrai's motivation for getting involved in the first place?

 

Those lot really have provided a beautiful year - I would like to thank PFC for being a complete pit.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Ignoring your speculative afterthought, Chainrai is between a rock and a hard place. The pup he bought was based on the inflated value of the squad, as immediate cash. He was expecting to have a large part of that in the bank by now, not spunking huge amounts of cash to mercenaries sitting on the beach. In the real world, the administrators need big cash injections to keep going. The parachutes are going to football creditors. We don't know the actual numbers, but the logic is just common sense.

 

What would you do?

 

It depends what is driving him. I felt that he was out to get one over on the Gaydamaks but the true story may never be known.

 

He's chucking good money after bad and, if it was me, I'd not be worried about losing face. I'd cut and run with HMRC now firmly on the case.

 

When Pandora's box finally does get opened I think a lot of people will need to be a long way away in countries without extradidition agreements with the UK.

[angelman]

Chainrai seems to have 2 choices:

 

1) Put his hand in his pocket and run the club which would include sorting out HMRC and court etc. {Unlikely IMO}

2) Cut his losses and hop on a plane back to Hong Kong

 

If he goes back to HK and Pooey disappear, I presume that he then reappears as the owner of the land.

 

In some ways I feel sorry for those fishy supporters, as Chainrai hasn't been, umm, a knight in shining armour.

[L1Minus10]

I'll update this at some point but I thought it was time to post it again

 

[sidthesquid]

Presumably Mr Chinnery is not going to be happy funding the club for three or four more months until the appeal goes through. They have been trying to give away Ben Haim and even if he goes they may wll be subbing West Ham for £20k/week. Then there's Nugent and Utaka etc etc. About as easy to shift as a curry-fuelled skidmark. The money pit keeps on sucking his cash away with little prospect of escape never mind a return. Oh what fun

[hutch]

What I want to know is what was really Chanrai's motivation for getting involved in the first place?

 

Those lot really have provided a beautiful year - I would like to thank PFC for being a complete pit.

IMO (and it's only that) it was, in conjunction with a "dubious" maleable administrator, the prospect of shedding the debt, shafting the creditors for a pittance and having a chance of quick promotion back to the PL with the benefit of the bulk of the parachutes to fund the squad, and cashing in.

 

And if that failed, getting his money back by liquidating the company and getting it (or most of it) back through his secured ownership of FP, either by selling it or renting it to a "newco" club.

 

I doubt very much that he was given all the facts, and I don't think he is a very happy man tonight.

 

 

 

 

 

Or maybe he just really likes Andy's quiff.

[View From The Top]

Of course much of the "football debt" belongs to Chainrai, the Ice Cream Dr., and the rest of the motley crew.

 

They owe millions in footballing debts. Those you mentioned are not footballing debts but secured debts which, to the FA, come behind the football debts.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

They owe millions in footballing debts. Those you mentioned are not footballing debts but secured debts which, to the FA, come behind the football debts.

 

We also, at some stage have that spectacle unfolding.

[rallyboy]

Chanrai came on the scene through greed - a big loan with big interest, a chance to grab a slice of a Premier League cash cow, and he was promised the January tv money.

That went pear-shaped and he was conned into further loans, all with big guarantees that haven't really happened.

All his investments would be covered in the worst case scenario by the £38M squad and the parachute payments.....

But the transfer income won't cover the wages, he has funded the admin but even his little puppet AA can't get the parachute money off the football creditors.

 

Surely Chanrai must now see that there's no profit to be made in this business, and it hasn't hit rock bottom yet - more High Court action, the tax evasion cases, and that's before any irregularities pop up all over the shop.

And I can see Cotterill getting them out of this division at the first attempt!

As an aside, he was an idiot to take the job - see Grant's ridiculous quotes about the ignorance of any money problems...

 

Time to cut your losses Mr Chanrai, dump AA with unpaid fees and leave him to prepare the footings for your open air leisure park incorporating social housing and a supermarket.

 

Today could well prove to be the worst day in the 10 year history of Portsmouth FC.

I see no way forward.

 

 

And to sum up this historic day a guy I saw tonight had his Fratton season ticket through the post today, great timing - and he had to pay the extra postage.

Really! You can't make these up.

[angelman]

Maybe the CVA was supposed to fail.

 

Well if they got away with 20p they would have followed a different tack, but no CVA, no buyer, liquidation, Poopey gets flushed away never to be seen again, Chainrape gets Fratton without any tenants. Much more convenient to take vacant possession. He avoids the blame for everything going tits up (HMRC, AA, Storrie, Gayboys, the Arabs etc can take that) and carries on his merry way and redevelops.

 

As Benjii asks, what was his real motivation. I presume to have amassed that much money (I presume he has) then he is no fool and knows exactly what he is doing.

[hutch]

It depends what is driving him. I felt that he was out to get one over on the Gaydamaks but the true story may never be known.

 

He's chucking good money after bad and, if it was me, I'd not be worried about losing face. I'd cut and run with HMRC now firmly on the case.

 

When Pandora's box finally does get opened I think a lot of people will need to be a long way away in countries without extradidition agreements with the UK.

I spent a lot of time earlier this year trying to find an adversarial motive between Chainrai and Gaydamak, based on the events, but couldn't find one. Every avenue led to collusion.

 

I agree that anybody connected with Pompey at the moment can't lose any more "face". It's all about the money. And if he "cuts and runs" then it's liquidation for the Company (but not necessarily for the football club). The club will (and should) survive.

 

And if they end up down here, I'll hunt them down.

[aintforever]

Surely Chanrai would be better off buying without a CVA anyway. Pay 1p in the pound, hang on until this time next year, pocket the rest of the parachutes and sell up. Wether pompey get -17 and go down or not wont make a huge difference to him.

[andysstuff]

Surely Chanrai would be better off buying without a CVA anyway. Pay 1p in the pound, hang on until this time next year, pocket the rest of the parachutes and sell up. Wether pompey get -17 and go down or not wont make a huge difference to him.

 

 

Trouble is he's still got to sell it then - as things stand, he'll have to pay £££ for someone to take it off his hands, just like he's finding he has to do with his overpaid players.

[tony13579]

The parachutes are going to football creditors.

The HMRC served a writ against the PL and the FL stopping the payment direct to the football creditors?? didn't they.....

[hutch]

And I can see Cotterill getting them out of this division at the first attempt!

I see what you did there.

[aintforever]

Trouble is he's still got to sell it then - as things stand, he'll have to pay £££ for someone to take it off his hands, just like he's finding he has to do with his overpaid players.

 

But once he buys it out of admin it will be debt free. I expect there will still be some parachutes left after the footie debt is paid off. He will own a debt free club, the ground and I expect (after a deal with gaydamak) all the land round it. He will easly find a buyer.

[Gemmel]

Maybe the CVA was supposed to fail.

 

Well if they got away with 20p they would have followed a different tack, but no CVA, no buyer, liquidation, Poopey gets flushed away never to be seen again, Chainrape gets Fratton without any tenants. Much more convenient to take vacant possession. He avoids the blame for everything going tits up (HMRC, AA, Storrie, Gayboys, the Arabs etc can take that) and carries on his merry way and redevelops.

 

As Benjii asks, what was his real motivation. I presume to have amassed that much money (I presume he has) then he is no fool and knows exactly what he is doing.

 

This is something that i keep coming up with. Regardless of their antics, these guys are not stupid and are very rich. May Be Hutch is right and this has all blown up thier faces, but for me you dont gamble the sort of money Chanarai has on anything but win win scenarios.

[hutch]

The HMRC served a writ against the PL and the FL stopping the payment direct to the football creditors?? didn't they.....

Fair point, but I expect the league will hold the money "in escrow", rather than send it to Hong Kong.

[Chez]

Surely Chanrai would be better off buying without a CVA anyway. Pay 1p in the pound, hang on until this time next year, pocket the rest of the parachutes and sell up. Wether pompey get -17 and go down or not wont make a huge difference to him.

 

he can't just offer 1p in the pound and expect creditors to accept it. They can just say no thanks and the debt will still be there.

[View From The Top]

But once he buys it out of admin it will be debt free. I expect there will still be some parachutes left after the footie debt is paid off. He will own a debt free club, the ground and I expect (after a deal with gaydamak) all the land round it. He will easly find a buyer.

 

No, it won't, which is the whole point.

[aintforever]

he can't just offer 1p in the pound and expect creditors to accept it. They can just say no thanks and the debt will still be there.

 

I thought if the creditors accept it you get a CVA, if they don't accept it you don't get a CVA and get the -17 but you exit admin on your terms - that's why the points penalty is there, to stop people blowing off debt like Leicester did.

[hutch]

This is something that i keep coming up with. Regardless of their antics, these guys are not stupid and are very rich. May Be Hutch is right and this has all blown up thier faces, but for me you dont gamble the sort of money Chanarai has on anything but win win scenarios.

The ONLY reason all the "dubious characters" are remotely interested in football at the moment is because it is a cash business. In the current global market, cash is King. If you can secure a cash flow in the future, you can borrow against that now, and buy assets at very depressed prices.

 

It's how the rich get richer. Unless, of course, you can't secure that future cash flow. And instead have a future cash flow deficit. In which case your lenders start to look very closely at your assets, and ask you to reduce your overdraft. We've been there before.

[View From The Top]

I thought if the creditors accept it you get a CVA, if they don't accept it you don't get a CVA and get the -17 but you exit admin on your terms - that's why the points penalty is there, to stop people blowing off debt like Leicester did.

 

The -17 doesn't equate to millions of pounds of debt being written off. The money is still owed.

[Merovingian]

would be more than happy for HMRC to get their hands on the books, think most of us would like to see that happen. String the buggers up lol !

 

whatever happens whether league 1 after this season coming or whatever if we still have a club without chainrai and any other suspect fooker I'll be happy. Rivalry as you know goes out the window in the situations like this, most important thing is survival, we'll resume the rivalry later !!

[StD]

I spent a lot of time earlier this year trying to find an adversarial motive between Chainrai and Gaydamak, based on the events, but couldn't find one. Every avenue led to collusion.

.

 

I agree - they have been in it together all along. Ask yourself this...

 

You take someone to court over a "business disagreement" - for example: http://archive.globes.co.il/searchgl/Court%20orders%20Gaydamak%20to%20pay%20Kushnir,%20Chainrai%20$23m_h_hd_2L34nDZaqDbmnC30mDJ0mC34sBcXqRMm0.html

 

Would you honestly have anything to do with them again (especially so soon - within months) without doing full research that there is no risk over the investment? I honestly cannot see any way in which Chainrai and Gaydamak haven't been colluding the full time, have milked the poorpy carcass for every penny and hope that their security on the loans (the land) hold up as the icing on the cake. The plan is for Chainrai to come out of this not looking like a villain when liquidation hits the fan and as the ground is sold for redevelopment

[hutch]

would be more than happy for HMRC to get their hands on the books, think most of us would like to see that happen. String the buggers up lol !

 

whatever happens whether league 1 after this season coming or whatever if we still have a club without chainrai and any other suspect fooker I'll be happy. Rivalry as you know goes out the window in the situations like this, most important thing is survival, we'll resume the rivalry later !!

The voice of reason. Welcome back Mero