Pompey Takeover Saga

[hutch]

Last week aa met with HMRC..... And then it went very quiet.

Now he's back and talking questioning the reasoning behind why they would challenge....Oh and portpin will buy it even if they do.

The reality is that aa already knows whether a challenge is likely (Based on their meeting) so for me this is all just part of the performance.

 

HMRC have 4 options

 

1) They do nothing, take it on the chin and move on (Unlikely)

2) They do not challenge the CVA and wait for the investigation into what went wrong (Part of the CVA proposal) and then go after the executives /gaydamak for the shortfall (Likely)

3) (Likely) They challenge the CVA on the grounds of the amount of debt taken into consideration against the CVA, the real debt figure and the fact that secured creditors voted, towards the CVA (I'm sure aa has a way around that one) The real debt figue is the interesting one. When the creditors list first came out, there were a numer of stories that the creditors list included debts that had been settled a long time ago. AA himself has that in his offical document that he expects the total debt to be DRAMATICALLY reduced, when proof of the debt is required, meaning that debt that didnt exist, still got a vote in the CVA (The administrator acted on behalf of everybody else (Voted on their behalf) other than 1/2 a dozen creditors)....if the debt wasnt real, then that sqews the % HMC would have acheived.

4 (Unlikely) HMRC have been working with the authorities and have got to bottom of any criminal activity, blow the whole thing open, seize the assets and arrest any wrongdoers.

 

So for me it's 2 or 3 ...... we'll find out next week

I think the picture's a bit bigger than that. HMRC do want their pound of flesh from Pompey. But they also, quite reasonably, want to stop this sort of thing from happening again. Hence the challenge to the "football creditor's rule" launched againts the PL and FL. IMO the only way they will not challenge the CVA is if they have already reached a deal "in principle" with the leagues to either scrap the rule (unlikely) or put HMRC on the same footing as football creditors (possible).

 

Neither of which helps the Skates (Chainrai).

[yoda]

when it went into administration

 

Thanks, just don't understand how someone can own an insolvent company and not be held responsible for its debts. Seems a strange law.

[hutch]

Can anyone explain how and when Chainrai stopped owning the club? Sorry if this is a silly question.

He never owned it. He excercised control over "Al-Mirage's" shares. Falcondrone was the owner when they went into admin, not Portpin.

 

As others have said, he lost that control when they went into admin.

[yoda]

He never owned it. He excercised control over "Al-Mirage's" shares. Falcondrone was the owner when they went into admin, not Portpin.

 

As others have said, he lost that control when they went into admin.

 

Ah, I see - thankyou.

[Gemmel]

As others have said, he lost that control when they went into admin.

 

And others have said he kept complete control (Sorry to confuse you Yoda)

[rallyboy]

some might observe that Chanrai has never properly owned the company.

 

He only took control as an unpaid debt-collector but has clearly maintained ultimate control throughout the entire administration process.

 

Maybe he missed a few episodes of his Open University course on company law.

[Saint_John]

Last week aa met with HMRC..... And then it went very quiet.

Now he's back and talking questioning the reasoning behind why they would challenge....Oh and portpin will buy it even if they do.

The reality is that aa already knows whether a challenge is likely (Based on their meeting) so for me this is all just part of the performance.

 

HMRC have 4 options

 

1) They do nothing, take it on the chin and move on (Unlikely)

2) They do not challenge the CVA and wait for the investigation into what went wrong (Part of the CVA proposal) and then go after the executives /gaydamak for the shortfall (Likely)

3) (Likely) They challenge the CVA on the grounds of the amount of debt taken into consideration against the CVA, the real debt figure and the fact that secured creditors voted, towards the CVA (I'm sure aa has a way around that one) The real debt figue is the interesting one. When the creditors list first came out, there were a numer of stories that the creditors list included debts that had been settled a long time ago. AA himself has that in his offical document that he expects the total debt to be DRAMATICALLY reduced, when proof of the debt is required, meaning that debt that didnt exist, still got a vote in the CVA (The administrator acted on behalf of everybody else (Voted on their behalf) other than 1/2 a dozen creditors)....if the debt wasnt real, then that sqews the % HMC would have acheived.

4 (Unlikely) HMRC have been working with the authorities and have got to bottom of any criminal activity, blow the whole thing open, seize the assets and arrest any wrongdoers.

 

So for me it's 2 or 3 ...... we'll find out next week

 

There are lots of things in the CVA which could be challeged, for example

1/ They only expect the question of Image Rights payments overseas without Tax & NI deductions to be questioned.

2/ As Hutch has said the Football Creditors rule, remember it will be 35p in the £ instead of 20p if it was not there. By adding it to the challenge it will force the Football Authorities to address the "writ" rather than let it drag on through the Courts for a few years.

3/ Comical Andy's CVA only had Portpin, Falcondrone and current Employees in the "Connected Creditors" (9.01), there was no mention of "Gunrunner" or the "Clown in the cap". If you remove these 2 and add the fact that original 2004 ruling against HMRC (Wimbledon case) that "Football was an Association, a group of clubs etc., there is a case that they should be added to the list of "Associated Creditors" which I think would overturn the second vote, 50% vote.

4/ They can also question the fact that Gunrunner loans, (I believe) were only placed against the company just before he sold PCFC and not when they were issued. I wonder if any documents from the raid on Mana & Yossifoff in Israel just happen to arrive on the fax machine at HMRC.

5/ More importantly I think HMRC will push for the removal of Comical Andy as they did in the Joe Blogs Jeans case. His whole arguement of "my cva or liquation and lost of the £48M" doesn't stand anymore because of the other IP's cva.

 

The question for me is whether the Cheats follow Leeds and take the 15pt penalty or try to bluff it out with HMRC until the Court cases in ? Sept ?. To do so they will need an additional loan from BC, the £6M to see them through Admin must be almost gone by now.

[Matthew Le God]

bluff it out with HMRC until the Court cases in ? Sept ?.

 

By which point the transfer window would have slammed shut and Pompey wouldn't have signed anyone due to the embargo remaining in place whilst waiting for the case to be heard. James, Rocha, HH etc all unable to sign new deals, no loans, free transfers etc and a tiny squad.

[Saint in Paradise]

By which point the transfer window would have slammed shut and Pompey wouldn't have signed anyone due to the embargo remaining in place whilst waiting for the case to be heard. James, Rocha, HH etc all unable to sign new deals, no loans, free transfers etc and a tiny squad.

 

Then they would start crying again and try to get sympathy and be allowed to bend the rules yet again.

[Matthew Le God]

Then they would start crying again and try to get sympathy and be allowed to bend the rules yet again.

 

I doubt it. The Football League are very strict. Look what happened to Bournemouth last season... not even allowed to sign a free transfer with £0 wages. "No" means "No" with the Football League.

[FMPR]

We will be allowed to sign a GK, league rules allow for that

[hutch]

The question for me is whether the Cheats follow Leeds and take the 15pt penalty or try to bluff it out with HMRC until the Court cases in ? Sept ?. To do so they will need an additional loan from BC, the £6M to see them through Admin must be almost gone by now.

The High Court closes on 30th July and doesn't open again until 1st October

 

Not sure about the other Courts, but I expect they would be similar.

[Lets B Avenue]

We will be allowed to sign a GK, league rules allow for that

 

Yes, but he will have to play up front.

[tartanowl]

I think you're right. The present football bubble has been remarkably long-lived, but a bubble it is nonetheless. And bubbles eventually burst.

 

It will happen at some point I'm convinced of it. It will take a really big club going under before anything is seriously done about it first though.

[ericofarabia]

The High Court closes on 30th July and doesn't open again until 1st October

 

Not sure about the other Courts, but I expect they would be similar.

 

And I thought teachers got good holidays.

 

How on earth can that be justified when peoples livelihoods could be at stake awaiting an outcome or ruling on a case.

 

Madness.

[ericofarabia]

It will happen at some point I'm convinced of it. It will take a really big club going under before anything is seriously done about it first though.

 

So it will be 'no change there then' after Portsmyth have been sunk without trace

[OldNick]

so it seems to have come to pass, they will get away with it. I believe HMRC will challenge, but boy have they had a great spending spree and experiences on the back of it. British justice eh, Lol

[hutch]

And I thought teachers got good holidays.

 

How on earth can that be justified when peoples livelihoods could be at stake awaiting an outcome or ruling on a case.

 

Madness.

The Courts take the view that any dispute which can be settled by payment of a sum of money from one Party to another will not be considered urgent.

 

In my experience, Judges & Advocates work pretty hard and long hours. There's a lot of work to be done to get ready for the "performance" in Court (if you want to win).

[saintjay77]

We will be allowed to sign a GK, league rules allow for that

 

I think the Prem are a little more sporting than the FL on that front. Didnt the FL make Bournmouth go through all there keepers before they let them sign an emergency loan?

 

Not saying they wont let you sign one but I think there pretty strict (or have been in the past) so make sure your youth keepers are gone before the season starts and you will have more of a chance.

 

Im impressed with some of the poopy supporters attitudes since aa has announced Chainrai wants the club now its shed 80% of its debt. I think more of them now realise why we have been calling them cheats. I dont think anyone wants to see there club acting like this so fair play to them for finally getting it. Seem to recall the Leeds fans not being overly happy at how there administration was done too. Suppose fans should take what they can but its nice to see some humility every now and then.

[Gingeletiss]

We will be allowed to sign a GK, league rules allow for that

 

I don't see why you should, when you have let one go, who you could of kept, and I don't mean James!

[Doctoroncall]

It will happen at some point I'm convinced of it. It will take a really big club going under before anything is seriously done about it first though.

 

We're discussed that... you're obviously have'nt read through all 574 pages!

[hutch]

5/ More importantly I think HMRC will push for the removal of Comical Andy as they did in the Joe Blogs Jeans case. His whole arguement of "my cva or liquation and lost of the £48M" doesn't stand anymore because of the other IP's cva.

And just as importantly the Aqua case from last year, where HMRC had Andy booted out on his ear for cheating, and replaced by a firm called Griffins (sound familiar?)

 

I genuinely feel sorry for the fans. I think most, if not all, of them would settle now for another relegation to get rid of AA, Chainrai, Storrie and the other crooks and get on with the long, slow process of rebuilding their club.

 

This "death by a thousand cuts" could drag on for a long, long time yet.

[dubai_phil]

so it seems to have come to pass, they will get away with it. I believe HMRC will challenge, but boy have they had a great spending spree and experiences on the back of it. British justice eh, Lol

 

I know this threads been going a long time, so long infact that I can't remember if it's Pantomime Season yet..

 

As in

 

Oh No they've not....

[Matthew Le God]

We will be allowed to sign a GK, league rules allow for that

 

The Pompey news states you have at least two keepers - Jon Stewart and Liam O'Brien.

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/James-leaves-door-open-to.6410950.jp

 

So the Football League won't think you have an emergency yet.

[solentstars]

http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/LatestNews/news/A-Statement-About-Quay-Radio-1108.aspx ha ha pompey radio station,its groundhog day.

[FMPR]

The Pompey news states you have at least two keepers - Jon Stewart and Liam O'Brien.

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/James-leaves-door-open-to.6410950.jp

 

So the Football League won't think you have an emergency yet.

 

Stewart is not on contract just trial. O'Brien is the only contracted keeper we have

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Stewart is not on contract just trial. O'Brien is the only contracted keeper we have

 

I'm sure that the FL will allow you to sign Stewart for a fraction of the wage that 'Jamo' would command. All in fairness to your creditors of course!

[NickG]

its an emergency - know we are broke - but really need Englands keeper on silly money in CCC!

[Dark Munster]

He never owned it. He excercised control over "Al-Mirage's" shares. Falcondrone was the owner when they went into admin, not Portpin.

 

As others have said, he lost that control when they went into admin.

Rumour has it that Comical Andy may be influenced somewhat by Chainrai.

 

[Dark Munster]

Interesting reading the skates on their footymad forum. Most seem unhappy and are being realistic about HMRC's position and the fact that if Chainrai takes over that a lot of people will have been shafted and effectively they will have cheated. They also feel that this would mean Storrie would be hanging around for longer.

That doesn't sound like your typical deluded blue few. Are you sure they're not Saints fans in disguise?

[Dark Munster]

I've always understood that the last date was the 15th July - but the Guardian article states the 16th. I would say we probably know better than some journo hack so 15th.

They may have got that date from Comical Andy. It's his cunning plan to fool HMRC into filing the appeal one day too late.

[Matthew Le God]

Stewart is not on contract just trial. O'Brien is the only contracted keeper we have

 

The Football League will question why Stewart was released and then taken back on trial when the club were fully aware this situation would arise with James due to the embargo. It just looks like they have deliberately created a situation where they can ask for dispensation to resign James, when in fact they should and could have offered Stewart a deal. Dug the hole for themselves.

[Kingsbridge Saint]

Next week rolls ever closer. Come on you HMRC, drop the bomb on the bastards.

[alehouseboys]

The Football League will question why Stewart was released and then taken back on trial when the club were fully aware this situation would arise with James due to the embargo. It just looks like they have deliberately created a situation where they can ask for dispensation to resign James, when in fact they should and could have offered Stewart a deal. Dug the hole for themselves.

 

They wouldn't do that...would they?

 

 

CHEATS.

 

 

COYHRMC.

[rallyboy]

just to take an updated look at the detail of the AA plan to make the business viable -

 

Roughly he needs to reduce the wagebill from £40M to £13M - a saving of more than half a million, a week!

If he is serious that means he needs to offload everyone we have heard of.

 

To put it into context, if he offloads Belhadj (£3.5M less fees, add ons), then Boateng and James, he will still only raise approx 20% of his wages reduction target and 35% of his transfer target, the whole first team has to go.

 

 

There's no way either of his targets are possible, so there's no way he can honour the CVA - any creditor who voted for this deal because they thought it would work is an idiot.

 

I'm guessing he's likely to fall £6M short on transfers and £1M a month short on the wages, meaning the CVA (if passed) will fail without delay and unless Chanrai wants to stump up approx £25M (leaving him owed approx £50M) to buy and run this great business model and get them to Christmas, we are back to square one.

[Torres]

Interesting....

 

"To ascertain whether a CVA has failed it is necessary to look at the terms of the proposal. The normal effect of a failure of a CVA will be the presentation of a default winding-up petition. This petition can be presented by the Supervisor or any “bound” creditor of the arrangement. The main grounds for a petition are:

 

failure to comply with obligations under the voluntary arrangement

 

 

giving false or misleading material information or making a material omission in any document at the creditors meeting, or

 

 

failure to comply with the Supervisor’s reasonable requests."

 

http://www.resolvepartners.co.uk/rsp.asp?sID=47&tID=1

[suewhistle]

giving false or misleading material information or making a material omission in any document at the creditors meeting, or

 

Hmmmm

[Jimmy_D]

Interesting....

 

"To ascertain whether a CVA has failed it is necessary to look at the terms of the proposal. The normal effect of a failure of a CVA will be the presentation of a default winding-up petition. This petition can be presented by the Supervisor or any “bound” creditor of the arrangement. The main grounds for a petition are:

 

failure to comply with obligations under the voluntary arrangement

 

 

giving false or misleading material information or making a material omission in any document at the creditors meeting, or

 

 

failure to comply with the Supervisor’s reasonable requests."

 

http://www.resolvepartners.co.uk/rsp.asp?sID=47&tID=1

 

This alone will make it very very difficult for them to make it through the season, and that's assuming the CVA actually gets accepted in its current form...

[andysstuff]

This alone will make it very very difficult for them to make it through the season, and that's assuming the CVA actually gets accepted in its current form...

 

But does this really come into effect with the current company being wound up in a few months as part od the CVA?

[EastleighSoulBoy]

But does this really come into effect with the current company being wound up in a few months as part od the CVA?

 

The new company will still have the obligation of servicing the C.V.A. Which will be easy because Chancer will have bought them at a steal and will be able to invest

comfortably without the C.V.A. directly affecting that investment.

 

In short, they will have bought everybody off for nuppence in the pound.

 

CHEATS

[benjii]

The new company will still have the obligation of servicing the C.V.A. Which will be easy because Chancer will have bought them at a steal and will be able to invest

comfortably without the C.V.A. directly affecting that investment.

 

In short, they will have bought everybody off for nuppence in the pound.

 

CHEATS

 

The new company will have all the rights, obligations, assets and liabilities of the old company. It will make no difference.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The new company will have all the rights, obligations, assets and liabilities of the old company. It will make no difference.

 

I get that. It just sticks in the craw that they will then have however much Chancer wants to put into them while ripping off their creditors.

 

** It's the lies and deceit which got them there I have a problem with.

[angelman]

How long is Chainrai going to hang around for if the bills just get bigger? At some stage he surely must think that it would be better to cut and run rather than throw good money after bad. If as a previous post says that Poopey will be at least £1m a month short a month on wages alone, then will Chainrai he prepared to pay it? To him it's some you win and some you lose. No doubt he will be able to offset his losses as well.

 

Personally I think that if HMRC contest the CVA and it gets turned down, I can see Chainrai cutting his losses.

[BigShadow]

Am I alone in thinking that 'buying' the club or rather taking ownership of the club won't cost Chainrai anything - perhaps a nominal £1 fee. That the whole thing is just a ruse to get the transfer embargo lifted. Remember, the FL league stated they wanted to see the CVA approved and then verify that new ownership was in place with the funds to take the club forward. So with no new owner stepping up to the plate, Chainrai assumes ownership and provides proof of funds to meet the clubs ongoing liabilities. He already has loaned £17m or something plus funded the administration period. He could easily convert some of that debt into equity ownership - he doesn't have to risk any more money. That is why he will 'buy' the club regardless of whether the HMRC challenge the CVA or not - either way Chainrai has the same financial risk as he does today.

 

With the transfer embargo lifted, they get some freebies/loans in, offload the remaining high earners and he will be hoping they have a decent start to the season so he can look for a quick sale in the autumn.

 

If that happens they might be OK, but if not, I just can't see Chainrai continuing to throw more money at PFC. (Unless of course, it isn't really Chainrais money keeping the sinking ship afloat).

[NickG]

how can they be meeting James, offering him a contract and be awaiting his decision?

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Lampitt-hails-Jamo39s-character-as.6412179.jp

[aintforever]

So in the week where HRMC have to decide to accept pittance of what they are owed, pompey are offering a shed load of cash to keep England's no1 goalie.

 

You really couldn't make this up.

[Matthew Le God]

how can they be meeting James, offering him a contract and be awaiting his decision?

 

Because like the other deals they have lined up, it will be on the condition the CVA goes through without incident.

[Jimmy_D]

So in the week where HRMC have to decide to accept pittance of what they are owed, pompey are offering a shed load of cash to keep England's no1 goalie.

 

You really couldn't make this up.

 

Not yet they haven't.

 

They waited until minutes before the deadline before appealing in the Leeds Utd case.

[Saint J 77]

Not yet they haven't.

 

They waited until minutes before the deadline before appealing in the Leeds Utd case.

 

What chance is there of a HMRC appeal being rejected?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Meanwhile a massive chunk of the £15m expected from outgoing transfers looks like it has been secured. Diop on his way to Greece for 300k euros, yes a whopping 300k - the creditors will be chuffed with that!

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Cotterill-confirms-Diop39s-on-his.6411961.jp?CommentPage=2&CommentPageLength=10#comments