Pompey Takeover Saga

[saintjay77]

No other club has gone into Administration from the premier league with a gauranteed 48 million quid in parachute payments before, thats why.

 

But every league has parachute payments. Ok they wont be as big as the ones from the Prem but then the debts prob wouldnt be as big as those from the prem either.

 

The idea that Griffin have of using as much of the income as possible to repay debts and leave the club sitting 1 or possible 2 divisions lower to rebuild seems fair enough to me.

 

We did most of the admin work in shipping out players and playing the youth team and came out of admin 2 whole divisions lower than we were before things all went wrong. OK the timing of all the main things was different but essentially this is what has happened.

 

For Poopy to screw things up and get relegated then use admin to dump most of its debt and then still think it can challenge for promotion back to the prem sound mental to me. I just think that if a club takes this route it sould be forced to honour its debts before mad cap plans to concour the leagues begin.

[rallyboy]

I still believe they could find themselves under a transfer embargo for failing to file accounts - a new ruling quietly voted in last week.

[suewhistle]

At what point do authorities get suspicious and take a look into whats going on?

 

Mwaah, ha, ha. I reckon they've been suspicious for a looong time. As to what is going on in response, that's why this thread is so interesting and entertaining, even if probably not always accurate..

[suewhistle]

If the CVA is agreed as per League rules why can anyone complain that we are not punished.

 

I think you are being a little obtuse there...

[Gorgiesaint]

I still believe they could find themselves under a transfer embargo for failing to file accounts - a new ruling quietly voted in last week.

 

Good point - would hate to see redflaps getting a cut of another loan fee when he lends them another couple of players.

Edited 16 June, 2010 by Gorgiesaint
when not if

[Red and White Army]

The nerve of AA is incredible. I can't believe he is going to get away with it though.

[Wes Tender]

They cannot, the other money by law is not taxable so they have no right to claim it

 

Are you legally qualified to make that judgement?

 

If AA somehow attempts to downplay the amount that the club owes HMRC, then I feel certain that HMRC will go to Court over it. That would be the last thing that the Android would want, as his past misdemeanours will be brought up and questions also asked about how the £60 million or so of debt in the SOA given to the Courts at the time of the winding-up order suddenly increased when Andronikou was appointed. Anyway, there is plenty of fun to be had when HMRC's challenge to the Football Creditors' ruling goes to court as well as the trials of Redcrapp, Storrie-teller and Mandaric.

[Joensuu]

The nerve of AA is incredible. I can't believe he is going to get away with it though.

 

Don't worry, he doesn't. The day he admits it's all gone tits up is the day the club implodes. He has to keep the earplugs in, and pretend it's all progressing as planned...

[Gorgiesaint]

Don't worry, he doesn't. The day he admits it's all gone tits up is the day the club implodes. He has to keep the earplugs in, and pretend it's all progressing as planned...

 

I'm sure there's enough skill on board...

 

[aintforever]

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/Andronikou-39It-looks-like-we.6364413.jp

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/Pompey-line-up-trio-from.6364397.jp

 

 

 

Everything is hunky dory in aa's world. It looks like the additional fines imposed by HMRC, don't go towards the percentage of debt that the cva is based on, leaving HMRC with only 21% and only one other creditor supporting them.

Additionally they have a wage budget of 8 million for next season and lining up the loanee's....from (Of course) Harry.

 

it would appear that nick, might have been onto something all along.... and they might just get away with it.

 

From the way that I see it, aa is now in a **** or bust situation and looks like he will come out smelling of roses. They will still recieve point deductions for the tax and illegal scout dealings, but that is pretty much it.

 

So at the same time of announcing that he thinks creditors will accept a measly 20p in the pound he is announcing his post admin spending spree!!

 

He's either a complete idiot or he wants them to vote against it.

[Weston Super Saint]

Decisions decisions .... Marmalade or Raspberry Jam?

 

My Mate, Marmite

[Wes Tender]

So at the same time of announcing that he thinks creditors will accept a measly 20p in the pound he is announcing his post admin spending spree!!

 

He's either a complete idiot or he wants them to vote against it.

 

Complete idiot. He's also the Walter Mitty of the insolvency profession, lacking integrity and ethical or moral fibre. The club gets the administrator it deserves.

[OldNick]

So it looks more likely that somehow AA has pulled off a coup.

Chanrai or another will put in 5-10m and they can get back to the PL riches. A decent gamble, as they have a strong squad still,even though a few have left.

So AA's claims come to pass, they have overspent 138m,had 5 years in the PL 4 Wembley visits, watched a team of Internationals at a cost of 25m or less. Then to cap it all start a new season starting on zero points after receiving a penalty that never cost a thing.

[Gemmel]

Even if the cva is accepted, HMRC still have a whole hand of cards to play.

In the first instance they can challenge it in court and I would certainly expect them to do that . If you look at the stance they have taken throughout this whole debacle, they are taking this very seriously.

If all else fails, they have gaydamak to go after. They have made their offer and he has ignored it. I would imagine that they will seize his assets in the shortest possible timeframe, which importantly includes the land around fratton park, including the offices, which would then put HMRC in the driving seat as aa could sell the club to whoever he wants, but couldn’t even walk through the turnstiles if HMRC played hardball. (You can’t get into the ground, without using the land that gaydamak owns).

I would be interested to know the process of seizing assets and whether they might have done all the work ahead of time, in case things don’t go their way on Thursday.

[ericofarabia]

My Mate, Marmite

 

You do realise we are talking about toast here, not highways

[Lord Duckhunter]

Not that I know much about these things, but the Poorsmouth case looks closest to the Leeds situation than any other. It appears that Bates manipulated the admin procees to get the Club's debt down and get a Premier League set up on the cheap. Here it looks like Chanarai is manipulating the admin procees here, to maximise his return and get his hands on the parachute money. In the Leeds case the Revenue challanged the CVA, despite it receiving 75% of the vote. It was the delay caused by this challange that resulted in the points deduction, as the administartor couldn't fund the club during the appeals procees.The Revenue will surely challange Poorsmouth's CVA and delay proceedings, but Chanari may still fund the Club during these proceedings if it means he gets the parachute money at the end of it.

 

From day 1 there was only one outcome of the Leeds admin, that Bates would end up with the Club. Personally I think there's there's only one outcome of Poorsmouth's, Chanari will own the Club. It just depends how much damage the Revenue/FL/FA do to the Club in the meantime, points deduction wise.

 

With Leeds you could see Bates' reasoning behind the deal, to get Leeds back to where they really should be, will make him loads of money. Chanari's motives are surely all about maximising his revenue, surely even in his limitted time in football he realises they are not a Premier league outfit, and even if they were, needed massive investment to sustain it. Therefore long term they are still screwed even if they do manage to wriggle out of it.

[Doctoroncall]

So it looks more likely that somehow AA has pulled off a coup.

Chanrai or another will put in 5-10m and they can get back to the PL riches. A decent gamble, as they have a strong squad still,even though a few have left.

So AA's claims come to pass, they have overspent 138m,had 5 years in the PL 4 Wembley visits, watched a team of Internationals at a cost of 25m or less. Then to cap it all start a new season starting on zero points after receiving a penalty that never cost a thing.

 

It'll be a blueprint for those clubs willing to spend to enjoy the highlife normally beyond reach and if it then gets too much a season of struggle to clear their debts sounds great as you're stated.

 

Hopefully there will be a few surprises yet, so I'll wait for the fat lady as the stage hasn't disappear.

[Gingeletiss]

They cannot, the other money by law is not taxable so they have no right to claim it

 

 

I think you may find that the 'other' money, is a fine, levied against the club, of a 100% of the taxes due. AA is p1ss1ng in the wind here, HMRC, have his nuts over the fire.

[saintjay77]

So it looks more likely that somehow AA has pulled off a coup.

Chanrai or another will put in 5-10m and they can get back to the PL riches. A decent gamble, as they have a strong squad still,even though a few have left.

So AA's claims come to pass, they have overspent 138m,had 5 years in the PL 4 Wembley visits, watched a team of Internationals at a cost of 25m or less. Then to cap it all start a new season starting on zero points after receiving a penalty that never cost a thing.

 

That seems to be the picture that AA paints but the vote has not taken place just yet. It could be that he is just dressing things up to make it look like all is well and the vote will go his way so fans and those that back him dont get panicy.

 

Griffin support someone and im guessing its not going to be one of the smaller debt people so whoever that person/s is I guess they will be voting against also. HMRC may well have had someting to do with Griffins proposal but I doubt that will ever be admitted so HMRC + A N Other + some agent who is owed 40k + a few more and I would have thought that over 25% would have been reached.

 

I will be amazed if the vote gets passed and thats the last that we hear about it though.

[buctootim]

Even if the cva is accepted, HMRC still have a whole hand of cards to play.

In the first instance they can challenge it in court and I would certainly expect them to do that . If you look at the stance they have taken throughout this whole debacle, they are taking this very seriously.

If all else fails, they have gaydamak to go after. They have made their offer and he has ignored it. I would imagine that they will seize his assets in the shortest possible timeframe, which importantly includes the land around fratton park, including the offices, which would then put HMRC in the driving seat as aa could sell the club to whoever he wants, but couldn’t even walk through the turnstiles if HMRC played hardball. (You can’t get into the ground, without using the land that gaydamak owns).

I would be interested to know the process of seizing assets and whether they might have done all the work ahead of time, in case things don’t go their way on Thursday.

 

Quite. http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2263755/portsmouth-fc-heading

[bridge too far]

Quite. http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2263755/portsmouth-fc-heading

 

But that article, from the end of last month says:

 

"It is believed HMRC officials at the meeting were keen to approve a CVA on condition the club could be investigated. Only liquidation would permit that. HMRC currently owns about a quarter of Portsmouth debts, potentially giving it significant influence over the administrators’ plans, which need the approval of 75% of the creditors by value"

 

We now know that HMRC won't approve the CVA.

[buctootim]

But that article, from the end of last month says:

 

"It is believed HMRC officials at the meeting were keen to approve a CVA on condition the club could be investigated. Only liquidation would permit that. HMRC currently owns about a quarter of Portsmouth debts, potentially giving it significant influence over the administrators’ plans, which need the approval of 75% of the creditors by value"

 

We now know that HMRC won't approve the CVA.

 

I know, but the main point is that the fun and games wont be over even if the CVA is approved.

[bridge too far]

I know, but the main point is that the fun and games wont be over even if the CVA is approved.

 

OIC - sorry, I missed the point you were making.

 

[Danish Saint]

AA is making a lot of noise at the moment. I see it as nothing more than posturing.

 

My money is still on HMRC. They've played a blinder so far and will continue to do so, even if (and that is a big if) the CVA gets approved.

 

This thing is far from over......

[Sevvy]

So what time does the fun begin tomorrow

[NickG]

got bad feeling about this - can still see them getting away totally unpunished.

[OldNick]

got bad feeling about this - can still see them getting away totally unpunished.

it must be in the name MrG as most others think they will be.

[Matthew Le God]

got bad feeling about this - can still see them getting away totally unpunished.

 

If they did it would make the taxman's vote against the CVA look pointless and silly.

 

HMRC are too clever to made to look silly in public when they can't help it, which if AA has his way they will.

 

Maybe they have yet to reveal their trump card and are holding it back until the last minute to ensure minimal wriggling.

[Gorgiesaint]

got bad feeling about this - can still see them getting away totally unpunished.

 

Jeez you Nicks!! Tomorrow won't be the end of it for Pompey whichever way it goes - if the CVA gets passed (somehow) then HMRC will be back in court before the 28 day appeal period is out, if the CVA get shot down like a lame duck (mentioning no names) then AA still has time to spout even more rubbish and they won't cease to exist by nightfall. This still has a while to go - plenty of time to hit 30k posts.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

If the CVA is agreed as per League rules why can anyone complain that we are not punished.

 

You really don't get it do you?

 

Not only are you lot bottom feeders, you also have your heads stuck firmly in the sand!

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Even if the cva is accepted, HMRC still have a whole hand of cards to play.

In the first instance they can challenge it in court and I would certainly expect them to do that . If you look at the stance they have taken throughout this whole debacle, they are taking this very seriously.

If all else fails, they have gaydamak to go after. They have made their offer and he has ignored it. I would imagine that they will seize his assets in the shortest possible timeframe, which importantly includes the land around fratton park, including the offices, which would then put HMRC in the driving seat as aa could sell the club to whoever he wants, but couldn’t even walk through the turnstiles if HMRC played hardball. (You can’t get into the ground, without using the land that gaydamak owns).

I would be interested to know the process of seizing assets and whether they might have done all the work ahead of time, in case things don’t go their way on Thursday.

 

I think that Barclays also have a charge on many of Gaydamaks plots.

[St Marco]

The only way AA is getting 75% is if he is making the HMRC debt % less. Which you have to imagine while he is decreasing the HMRC debt % he is increasing one of the others %. Which obviously will mean they go back to court. Question is will he want to do that? It would not surprise me to see the CVA agreed, HMRC claim foul play and take them back to court and Android walks. He can then say he got the CVA agreed making his reputation as an administrator slightly less tarnished.

Then at court HMRC will just rip them apart. The whole pay people 4p a year while they spend millions on new players and wages will not go down well at all.

[hutch]

ignoring the `are HMRC a creditor over the 25% threshold' factor, if PFC force the CVA through by ignoring the HMRCs claim for £32m, are HMRC then forced to accept the 20p in the pound?

Answer in 2 parts:

 

1 It's not a straightforward 20p. It's only 4p now (from player sales, and I don't think they've sold any yet), and the rest in 4p lumps on condition that the Newco makes enough profit. AA has a track record of avoiding/delaying/postponing CVA payments due to creditors (Swindon, for example). Not very attractive, and

 

2 They would probably accept it "on account", not "in full and final settlement". I have no doubt that AA would hold on to the cheque to try and force HMRC to agree, at which point HMRC will certainly say "OK Mr. Andronikou. Give us 4p and we'll withdraw all the Court cases and go away quietly."

 

Tick ...... Tock

[teamsaint]

can football creditors vote?

They are unsesured, but know that they will get 100 %, so really, they didn't ought to be allowed to vote in favour.

[Matthew Le God]

can football creditors vote?.

 

No they don't.

[PaulSaint]

Seyth Afreekah have now let in two world cup goals, Pompeys Mokoena played the team onside for the first & deflected the second in. Lets hope its 3 lots of bad luck in a week for PFC & AA drops his b*llock tomorrow?

 

Edited 16 June, 2010 by PaulSaint
Spelling

[Saint_lambden]

One of these will happen at the meeting then....

 

- Approve the current administrators proposal

- Modify the CVA

- Reject CVA

 

The question is.....which one is most likely to happen?

[hypochondriac]

It is the discretion of the administrator whether to accept additional debt claims or not. HMRC can claim fines on the original loan and also the disputed tax on image rights payments. AA will dismiss these because he is dodgy as f*ck. The CVA will pass tomorrow, AA will go on and on about how great he is and how they can start again and HMRC will then challenge him in court. HMRC will no doubt win and then I don't know what happens after that. No one be suicidal tomorrow though when the CVA passes, it's all a sham!

[hypochondriac]

One of these will happen at the meeting then....

 

- Approve the current administrators proposal

- Modify the CVA

- Reject CVA

 

The question is.....which one is most likely to happen?

 

The CVA will be approved because AA will move the debt levels around to fit. HMRC will challenge it and this will have a long time to run. Leeds were forced to come out of admin without a CVA because the administrator could not afford to bankroll the appeal process. No doubt Chanrai will bankroll the skates thoug because of the promise of the parachute payments. Will be interesting to see the outcome of any appeal once HMRC have done challenging.

[Dark Munster]

It is the discretion of the administrator whether to accept additional debt claims or not. HMRC can claim fines on the original loan and also the disputed tax on image rights payments. AA will dismiss these because he is dodgy as f*ck. The CVA will pass tomorrow, AA will go on and on about how great he is and how they can start again and HMRC will then challenge him in court. HMRC will no doubt win and then I don't know what happens after that. No one be suicidal tomorrow though when the CVA passes, it's all a sham!

 

A Swindon fan backs this up.... (from a P**** forum):

 

Beware of Andrew Andronikou, he is a nasty bit of work

 

I am a Swindon Town fan and He was the administrator of Swindon Town. He will talk the talk but in practice he was very dodgy indeed. He came very close to the previous board who almost bankrupt STFC, he will likely stand side by side with Storrie and blame the fans for the state of the club as opposed to looking for a path forward.

 

- He slagged the Swindon Town fans off calling them “busy bodies” as opposed to trying to build bridges with fans

 

- Despite completing our CVA well over a year ago Andronikou has yet to issue a completion certificate, bringing out credit score down along with it.

 

- Found new shareholding/investment in the club “BEST” Holdings a group from Portugal who promised to bring millions in and did nothing and ultimately they disappeared off the face of the earth. They also brought in “star players who will bring money abck in the future” all 3 players, Ibon Arrieta, Franklin Anzite and Mauro Almeida have disappeared off the face of the earth in 2007.

 

- Refused to meet with supporters groups and instead wanted to battle or argue with them as opposed to come up with a productive way to move forward

 

- Supervised a CVA but allowed the previous board to shell out £25,000 for Paul Ince who palyed 2 games and signed Dennis Wise and Gus Poyet on big contracts the club could not afford

 

- Put all their eggs in one basket and hoped a new stadium or ground redevelopment would clear the debts, Still no new ground

 

- When Andronikou said to local papers that "we are adjusting the CVA to give the club more time to pay" , when the creditors were approached they said they had no contact.

 

- Constant winding up orders cropped up despite being told that the CVA had been paid.

 

- CVA Paymenets were not made on time, Andronikou is supposed to ensure this happens, he did nowt.

 

Be prepared for more failed promises, wishes of millions that will never materialise.

 

You think things are bad now, they are about to get even worse. The only advantage is atleast your plight is national lose instead of being a "little league one club"

 

Thank God Andrew Fitton and his consortium took over Swindon Town in the end or god knows where we would be.

[Under Weststand]

I've no doubt that Android will fiddle the figures to push through the CVA today & claim its all done & dusted. However if I remember correctly at the last court case HMRC reserved the right to question the amount of debt that Chainrai claimed. they will almost definitely contest the CVA & his figures, they also have the SOA to find the point in time before AA took over. Also lets not forget the football creditors case to come.

No matter what AA says today, he has history as Swindon Town know, there is a lot more to happen yet.

Been on night's so just off to Bed now, so will miss most of the fun today enjoy! Will catch up later. GO HMRC

[NickG]

solent - AA - optimistic will be accepted as best deal can offer

[sidthesquid]

What time is kick-off today & when will we hear some news?

[Matthew Le God]

What time is kick-off today & when will we hear some news?

 

The meeting starts at 11am at Fratton Park according to the CVA document all creditors recieved. As for when we'll hear anything, no one really knows as it depends what happens.

[Saint_John]

solent - AA - optimistic will be accepted as best deal can offer

I must have heard a different Radio Solent report to you because the one I heard at 07:15 had Tony H saying what 90% of us on here think, namely it will go to the High Court again if Comical Andy fixes the figures.

(IMO - 28 days = 15 July therefore High Court on the 14th July is my bet).

[Wes Tender]

I've no doubt that Android will fiddle the figures to push through the CVA today & claim its all done & dusted. However if I remember correctly at the last court case HMRC reserved the right to question the amount of debt that Chainrai claimed. they will almost definitely contest the CVA & his figures, they also have the SOA to find the point in time before AA took over. Also lets not forget the football creditors case to come.

No matter what AA says today, he has history as Swindon Town know, there is a lot more to happen yet.

Been on night's so just off to Bed now, so will miss most of the fun today enjoy! Will catch up later. GO HMRC

 

I'm with you on this. The announcement that he will make today that the CVA has been accepted by the required 75% of creditors will undoubtedly be meaningless, as I'm confident that it will be contested in Court.

[Chin Strain]

Given that Griffin are offering 65p, I'm not sure why Gaydamak would even consider AAs offer...unless there's some under the table agreement to do with the land. Gaydamak has no real interest in the club, so it won't bother him if they slide through the divisions - he just wants his money back. So, 20% of £32m over 4 years or 65% of £32m? I'd LMAO if Gaydamak and HMRC vote against and remove any doubt.

[saintjay77]

Given that Griffin are offering 65p, I'm not sure why Gaydamak would even consider AAs offer...unless there's some under the table agreement to do with the land. Gaydamak has no real interest in the club, so it won't bother him if they slide through the divisions - he just wants his money back. So, 20% of £32m over 4 years or 65% of £32m? I'd LMAO if Gaydamak and HMRC vote against and remove any doubt.

 

Wasnt Griffin's proposal based on Gaydamak dropping his claim of 32 Mil though?

[Sevvy]

Wasnt Griffin's proposal based on Gaydamak dropping his claim of 32 Mil though?

 

No would go to the higher amount of 99p i believe if he drops the 32Mil

[OldNick]

I'm with you on this. The announcement that he will make today that the CVA has been accepted by the required 75% of creditors will undoubtedly be meaningless, as I'm confident that it will be contested in Court.

 

How our sights have dropped over the months. First toast then no CVA and now last chance that HMRC contest it.

Things may change very quickly but at present it looks as though Chanrai is going to own Pompey for nunpence and be able to push them forward to a PL return and get those riches.

Chanrai IMO has given AA a roadmap that has so far worked. If points for financial regularities come into play that may well be a factor that Chanrai cant do anything about though, but if at the end of today they have Cotterill installed and those loan players from HR and Wenger they certainly do look chipper.