Pompey Takeover Saga

[GenevaSaint]

Whilst we are perfectly entitled to scoff at their threadbare support... on the ST front, I don't blame them at all. I certainly would not buy an ST if Saints were in their position.

 

But all of the money will be in a ring fenced account, AA says so, honest guv ;-)

[tony13579]

The buckets of money collected for the Tom Prince Trust some how made it in to the wrong accounts!

[saintjay77]

He is a dollar billionaire though, which is probably what they are alluding to.

 

Isnt the definition of a Billionare different in some country's?

 

I would have thought its a million million and above but I think some count 100 million as a billionare???

[Trader]

A British billion always used to be a million million, but the American definition of a thousand million seems to now be the accepted version worldwide.

[Wes Tender]

Isnt the definition of a Billionare different in some country's?

 

I would have thought its a million million and above but I think some count 100 million as a billionare???

 

Only Skate fans. HTH

[sidthesquid]

Only Skate fans. HTH

 

I thought the definition of a skate billionaire was either a portly arab in a too-tight Poopey shirt or an invisible arab friend of Peter Storrie's, neither of whom actually have any money.

[Johnny Bognor]

A British billion always used to be a million million, but the American definition of a thousand million seems to now be the accepted version worldwide.

 

The US system is the most widely used (esepcially by the scientific community).

 

However it is not as logical as the British definition where a billion (bi meaning two) has twice as many zeros as a million. Therefore our Billion is a US Trillion and the US billion is only 1000 million.

[gaz]

 

''Griffin? Griffin who? They are stupid for not understanding my amazing nous with figures....theres no way on Earth they can do a better deal considering the circumstances....they are chancers.....I'm on the phone with Vladimir and his Ukrainian backers...I'm working for the best interest of the club.....I'm going to sign players soon....training soon, wheres my ''AA'' embroidered tracksuit?''

[Deano6]

In finance (both UK and USA) a billion is a thousand million. A trillion is a million milllion. The logic is to start at a million and add a "unit" for every 3 digits you add. So a thousand trillion would be a quadrillion, then quintillion etc.

[Dark Munster]

If the CVA isn't approved AA remains the administrator and will need to (continue to?) fulfil the duties of his office.

 

In short, he'll either need to come up with an alternative plan or look at other options for rasing money for creditors. If he can't find a plan for them to continue trading then that means closing down and liquidating the remaining assets.

And presumably continues to get paid whatever his hourly rate is. Talk about rewarding failure.

 

 

CHEATING BASTARDS

[rallyboy]

AA and the players they can't shift are slowly but surely bleeding the carcass dry.

 

Any investment from Chanrai funding this sham administration isn't a present, it's additional debt that needs to be addressed should a new owner ever emerge from a nuthouse.

 

Every day that passes without new investment their plight becomes worse, but I can see why AA is in no hurry.

[Clapham Saint]

And presumably continues to get paid whatever his hourly rate is. Talk about rewarding failure.

 

 

CHEATING BASTARDS

 

Sadly yes, however the potential for a career ending PI claim is remains.

[Trader]

http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/billion?view=uk

 

FFS

[Chez]

I thought the definition of a skate billionaire was either a portly arab in a too-tight Poopey shirt or an invisible arab friend of Peter Storrie's, neither of whom actually have any money.

 

I don't think Tells stories arab friend was invisible, I thinl the first one eat him, hence the struggle get into his shirt or find the other.

[Dark Munster]

People are suggesting that AA and UHY Hacker Young could be finished by the end of this soap opera. But ask yourself: if you're a dodgy owner of a company that has to go into administration, and want to shaft the genuine creditors, who would be a better choice as administrator? Surely there could be a lot of work after this is all over?

 

 

 

CHEATING BASTARDS

[Saint_clark]

Again I lost track of everything, but from what I can gather...they're f*cked?

In one weeks time we should have confirmation they will start on -15, correct?

[Eastcowzer]

breaking news...

 

10 Jun 2010 22:14:31

According to a source in the City, representatives of David Beckham have been in touch with the administrators of Portsmouth F.C with regards to buying the club. Beckham has previously stated that he'd like to own an English Football team and it's believed that he feels Portsmouth are good value for money. It is not known whether he wishes to play for the club if he buys them

 

 

I've always thought that Beckham was a sandwich short of a picnic and if this report be true then that proves to be the case.

[fromdayone]

Again I lost track of everything, but from what I can gather...they're f*cked?

In one weeks time we should have confirmation they will start on -15, correct?

 

Not according to this;

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Pompey-will-not-be-docked.6349310.jp

[pedg]

People are suggesting that AA and UHY Hacker Young could be finished by the end of this soap opera. But ask yourself: if you're a dodgy owner of a company that has to go into administration, and want to shaft the genuine creditors, who would be a better choice as administrator? Surely there could be a lot of work after this is all over?

 

CHEATING BASTARDS

 

That would depend on whether AA gets away with shafting the creditors or not. If he is shown up for what he is doing and HMRC win a victory on all points not only will he have shown that he has failed in that task but also, unlike the previous case of him loading the books, it will be in a very public case. After pompey anyone employing him is going to be treated with great suspicion.

[Danish Saint]

Not according to this;

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Pompey-will-not-be-docked.6349310.jp

 

They will not be docked points for being in Admin, but like Luton, they still have financial irregularities, trading while insolvent and dodgy dealings by former directors to deal with... so they are far from being in the clear.

[fromdayone]

They will not be docked points for being in Admin, but like Luton, they still have financial irregularities, trading while insolvent and dodgy dealings by former directors to deal with... so they are far from being in the clear.

 

Agreed, but the only thing so far to be proven, is their use of an un-licenced agent.

So why did the FL decide to ignore this information at their recent AGM?

[Saint_John]

I expect Comical Andy to do something similar to leeds.

 

In leeds original cva the creditors were offered 1%, however the day before the cva vote this was raised to 8%. I expect Comical Andy to change his cva this week to something like 21% (from 20%) and 40% (from 5%) if they get promoted to the PL. i.e. he will attempt to make out they are offering 60+% which should get a "one liner" on SSN & the papers.

 

In the leeds situation there was also a last min credit note from a BVI company that just so happen to take the vote to 75.2% in favour.

I expect Comical Andy to try something similar this week, either refuse to accept HMRC image rights claim or add some more debt from a BVI company. He will then say the cva has been passed.

 

Leeds then insisted that the FL give them their Golden Share, however they refused and told them to wait for the 28 day cooling off period.

After 27 days and 23 hours HMRC went back to the High Court to "block" the cva. I believe something similar will happen with CHEATS FC.

 

Leeds then accepted the 15point penalty because the Admininistraor said he could not pay for Leeds to stay in Admin.

This is where thinks might change in that the Skates may take another loan (original loan of £6M repaid at £9.2M imo will run out at the end of July) OR they may follow the leeds situation and come out of Admin without a cva (-15pts).

 

All imo.

[View From The Top]

Does HMRC have 25% of the debt published in the CVA offer paper?

[tony13579]

They should have more. Thier percentage should rise each payday. Also there was £2m recorded as a debt that was actually owed to Pompey.

But.... Iam sure someone has a loan to Pompey where the intrest is racking up at a horrific interest rate. How else did £60m become £110m?

[hutch]

I haven't read the UHY CVA offer paper, I haven't got the stomach for fiction. But the reported figures are that HMRC are at c.£35m, including image rights and penalties, out of c.£105m, so on face value, yes.

 

However, after it came out that HMRC would not support the CVA, AA has hinted that some of HMRC's debt is disputed, so I expect it to be below by the time it comes to a vote. Unless AA toes the line, which is unlikely IMO, it'll be back in Court in due course.

[dubai_phil]

I haven't read the UHY CVA offer paper, I haven't got the stomach for fiction. But the reported figures are that HMRC are at c.£35m, including image rights and penalties, out of c.£105m, so on face value, yes.

 

However, after it came out that HMRC would not support the CVA, AA has hinted that some of HMRC's debt is disputed, so I expect it to be below by the time it comes to a vote. Unless AA toes the line, which is unlikely IMO, it'll be back in Court in due course.

 

Which will of course mean that any CVA is delayed which will mean........

 

 

Yup we're gonna get up towards the astonishing 40,000 posts mark, which gives me a silly idea for a new thread :smt004

[Clapham Saint]

They should have more. Thier percentage should rise each payday. Also there was £2m recorded as a debt that was actually owed to Pompey.

But.... Iam sure someone has a loan to Pompey where the intrest is racking up at a horrific interest rate. How else did £60m become £110m?

 

Their claim won't be increasing. All PAYE/NI/VAT incurred as a result of trading whilst in administration is counted as a cost of the administration and AA is liable.

 

The amount outstanding as a result of activities prior to the administration can be claimed by HMRC in the administration and used to vote.

 

Also any loans taken out before the admin will be frozen at that date. Any taken out by AA to fund the administration are again his problem.

 

The only way that the debt included within the vote can "get bigger" is if debts are found which were not previously known about (generally becuase they were not included within the accounts for some reason) and are proven to be valid.

 

I think that the previous court cases involving AA which were discussed earlier on this thread related to AA accepting additional dubious debt claims from family members in order to help boost the vote in favour.

[Faz]

Their claim won't be increasing. All PAYE/NI/VAT incurred as a result of trading whilst in administration is counted as a cost of the administration and AA is liable.

 

The amount outstanding as a result of activities prior to the administration can be claimed by HMRC in the administration and used to vote.

 

Also any loans taken out before the admin will be frozen at that date. Any taken out by AA to fund the administration are again his problem.

 

The only way that the debt included within the vote can "get bigger" is if debts are found which were not previously known about (generally becuase they were not included within the accounts for some reason) and are proven to be valid.

 

I think that the previous court cases involving AA which were discussed earlier on this thread related to AA accepting additional dubious debt claims from family members in order to help boost the vote in favour.

 

I imagine HMRC are itching for AA to pull some stroke or other which will enable them to take everything back to court. I think they've very effectively boxed AA into a corner. If AA goes to court to appeal the image rights thing - which surely he should have done by now - HMRC will trawl through all the other "claims". If AA pulls some hitherto unreported "claims" out of the hat to get his CVA approved, HMRC go to court within the cooling off period.

 

If no CVA is approved, then they stay in admin. Year one parachute money goes to Football Creditors. I imagine player sales go towards funding the costs of Admin to pay back Chinnery's loan to AA. They still need Chinnery to fund the Admin through until the next tranche of Parachute money comes in. Transfer embargo probably means relegation. Then liquidation.

 

Blinder.

[Chin Strain]

They will not be docked points for being in Admin, but like Luton, they still have financial irregularities, trading while insolvent and dodgy dealings by former directors to deal with... so they are far from being in the clear.

 

Don't believe what you're reading in The News. It goes like this:

 

They won't be deducted points for next season IF they stay in admin or come out of admin with an agreed CVA.

 

They will be deducted points if they come out of admin without an agreed CVA.

 

The chances of them getting an agreed CVA under AAs proposal are virtually nil. HMRC simply won't agree to it and have 25% of the debt.

 

They could, conceivably, stay in admin. This means that the transfer embargo stays in place. They'll be left with about 5 of the first team squad in this instance and, presumably, the youth team will have to play.

 

I would say it is certain they will have a points deduction for next season, unless there's a major shift in the current position towards the Griffin proposal. Even with that proposal, HMRC won't agree to it unless they get 100%....so Pompey still have a points deduction.

[aintforever]

I haven't read the UHY CVA offer paper, I haven't got the stomach for fiction. But the reported figures are that HMRC are at c.£35m, including image rights and penalties, out of c.£105m, so on face value, yes.

 

However, after it came out that HMRC would not support the CVA, AA has hinted that some of HMRC's debt is disputed, so I expect it to be below by the time it comes to a vote. Unless AA toes the line, which is unlikely IMO, it'll be back in Court in due course.

 

Do we know that HRMC will not support the CVA?

 

I've been on Hols and can't be arsed to trawl through half a million posts.

[NickG]

rumoured not to, but don't know for sure

[hutch]

Not rumours of the "football fans internet forum" type, but of the "press widely quoting a HMRC source" type, to be fair. It was "leaked" by HMRC for a purpose.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I imagine HMRC are itching for AA to pull some stroke or other which will enable them to take everything back to court. I think they've very effectively boxed AA into a corner. If AA goes to court to appeal the image rights thing - which surely he should have done by now - HMRC will trawl through all the other "claims". If AA pulls some hitherto unreported "claims" out of the hat to get his CVA approved, HMRC go to court within the cooling off period.

 

If no CVA is approved, then they stay in admin. Year one parachute money goes to Football Creditors. I imagine player sales go towards funding the costs of Admin to pay back Chinnery's loan to AA. They still need Chinnery to fund the Admin through until the next tranche of Parachute money comes in. Transfer embargo probably means relegation. Then liquidation.

 

Blinder.

 

So it's all a matter of patience then?

 

40K posts is well within reach.

 

CHEATS

[aintforever]

Not rumours of the "football fans internet forum" type, but of the "press widely quoting a HMRC source" type, to be fair. It was "leaked" by HMRC for a purpose.

 

You're right, acountancyage should be a more reliable source than some redtop.

 

http://www.accountancyage.com/accountancyage/news/2264288/hmrc-set-veto-cva

 

I suppose they will reject the CVA then contest the football creditors rule when the first parachute payment gets directed straight to the football creditors.

 

Anything that drags it out is good news, makes the -17 more likely.

[hutch]

They've already contested the football creditor's rule. They've started proceedings against the PL and the FL.

 

You have been away a long time.

[rallyboy]

I can't believe that a company in administration can continue to run up debt at the rate that AA must be doing.

No current income, regular hefty wagebill, soaring interest payments to shrewd loan sharks - because let's not pretend that businessmen 'helping out' since October last year are doing anything other than exploiting a damaged company to claim assets or massive repayments.

 

Is it not time for AA's bosses to start getting jittery about responsibility for debt created under their watch?

[buctootim]

Every day I log in hoping to see the following headline: "Portsmouth Football Club passed away peacefully last night after a long illness".

 

Oh well, until tomorrow.

[Faz]

I can't believe that a company in administration can continue to run up debt at the rate that AA must be doing.

No current income, regular hefty wagebill, soaring interest payments to shrewd loan sharks - because let's not pretend that businessmen 'helping out' since October last year are doing anything other than exploiting a damaged company to claim assets or massive repayments.

 

Is it not time for AA's bosses to start getting jittery about responsibility for debt created under their watch?

 

The Company isn't running up debt. The Administration is being funded by a loan from Chinnery, which he will get back from player sales, assuming they raise between £6m-£10m.

[Gemmel]

The Company isn't running up debt. The Administration is being funded by a loan from Chinnery, which he will get back from player sales, assuming they raise between £6m-£10m.

 

I think you just proved his point

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I can't believe that a company in administration can continue to run up debt at the rate that AA must be doing.

No current income, regular hefty wagebill, soaring interest payments to shrewd loan sharks - because let's not pretend that businessmen 'helping out' since October last year are doing anything other than exploiting a damaged company to claim assets or massive repayments.

 

Is it not time for AA's bosses to start getting jittery about responsibility for debt created under their watch?

 

Remember that Chanrai is the driving force, he appointed HY. AA is creating more debt for Chanrai to claim, in a roundabout way. I bet they try and stiff the HMRC with that to drop them below the 25%

[Gingeletiss]

The Company isn't running up debt. The Administration is being funded by a loan from Chinnery, which he will get back from player sales, assuming they raise between £6m-£10m.

 

Which in my book, is debt, how can it not be, it has to be paid back!

[View From The Top]

Remember that Chanrai is the driving force, he appointed HY. AA is creating more debt for Chanrai to claim, in a roundabout way. I bet they try and stiff the HMRC with that to drop them below the 25%

 

Too late for that.

[Clapham Saint]

I can't believe that a company in administration can continue to run up debt at the rate that AA must be doing.

No current income, regular hefty wagebill, soaring interest payments to shrewd loan sharks - because let's not pretend that businessmen 'helping out' since October last year are doing anything other than exploiting a damaged company to claim assets or massive repayments.

 

Is it not time for AA's bosses to start getting jittery about responsibility for debt created under their watch?

 

Exactly. As somebody put it earlier on this thread... "Disaster waiting to happen".

 

The Company isn't running up debt. The Administration is being funded by a loan from Chinnery, which he will get back from player sales, assuming they raise between £6m-£10m.

 

Um... a loan is debt.

 

However you are right that the loan funding the administration is separate from the debt incurred by the company prior to the administration.

 

Remember that Chanrai is the driving force, he appointed HY. AA is creating more debt for Chanrai to claim, in a roundabout way. I bet they try and stiff the HMRC with that to drop them below the 25%

 

As I've said before, short of fraudulent activity they can't "create" more debt to reduce HMRC's claim at this stage.

 

AA is responsible for any loans taken out and any trading losses incurred since the date that he was appointed.

 

The question is, is AA a smart chap who has got Chanarai to agree to waive the loan funding the adminstration in the event that the CVA plan falls apart, or is Chanarai about to bend him over the table and end his career?

[Weston Super Saint]

 

The question is, is AA a smart chap who has got Chanarai to agree to waive the loan funding the adminstration in the event that the CVA plan falls apart, or is Chanarai about to bend him over the table and end his career?

 

I assume that's a rhetorical question.....

 

So, number 2 it is then

[OldNick]

AA is responsible for any loans taken out and any trading losses incurred since the date that he was appointed.

 

The question is, is AA a smart chap who has got Chanarai to agree to waive the loan funding the adminstration in the event that the CVA plan falls apart, or is Chanarai about to bend him over the table and end his career?

Im glad you are posting again more regularly, you must have regained your strength after your honeymoon!!

He must be working to agreed plan, if not!!!!!!

I cant believe AA would take any risk to himself, and his bosses/partners would be aware of the dangers he would be putting his own company in.

Therefore IMO he must be working to the directions of another.

[Danny]

Not according to this;

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Pompey-will-not-be-docked.6349310.jp

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/football/8209877.Pompey_not_safe_from_more_point_deductions/

 

They are still very much in danger of being deducted points, despite what The News says.

[Chin Strain]

Do we know that HRMC will not support the CVA?

 

I've been on Hols and can't be arsed to trawl through half a million posts.

 

99.9% certain. They never, ever vote for a CVA unless they get 100% of their debt.

[angelman]

Remember that Chanrai is the driving force, he appointed HY. AA is creating more debt for Chanrai to claim, in a roundabout way. I bet they try and stiff the HMRC with that to drop them below the 25%

 

I'm not so sure that it is a good thing to get HMRC under 25%. If they did that then I could imagine that it would end up in court quick smart. And if they start playing games with HMRC, HMRC might play their remaining ace. That is fines and charges for erroneous payments which can be levied at 100% of what is outstanding, ie doubling what they are owed.

 

As I have said before, you really don't want to play brinkmanship with HMRC. If you do, you have to be 100% certain of your position - 99% isn't good enough - and in this case, I can't believe that AA can possibly be anywhere near 100% certain of his position.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I'm not so sure that it is a good thing to get HMRC under 25%. If they did that then I could imagine that it would end up in court quick smart. And if they start playing games with HMRC, HMRC might play their remaining ace. That is fines and charges for erroneous payments which can be levied at 100% of what is outstanding, ie doubling what they are owed.

 

As I have said before, you really don't want to play brinkmanship with HMRC. If you do, you have to be 100% certain of your position - 99% isn't good enough - and in this case, I can't believe that AA can possibly be anywhere near 100% certain of his position.

 

I do realise that HMRC are great at brinkmanship, I just don't think that AA does. In fact I think AA thinks he is too smart for any other organisation involved. HMRC are timing every move they make down to the Nth detail.

 

He nearly came a cropper at Swindon, I believe he will with the FCSBs.

[Jimmy_D]

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/football/845109/PORTSMOUTH-FACING-A-NEW-D-DAY.html

 

The endgame may be approaching.