Pompey Takeover Saga

[suewhistle]

[[in my opinion, what will happen if Griffins are appointed as administrators, is that they will seek to setoff the £54M in losses that Gaydamak was responsible for, whilst trading insolvently, against the £32M he is claiming.]]

 

ah, thanks GM, as a wage slave I wasn't aware of the niceties of efffing the IR and your competitors and clients.

 

[ Hmm, so there is a possibility that PFC could have been shown to have been trading while insolvent in a Court of Law. [VERY IMPORTANT SNIP]

First indications of the real bag of worms that Lampitt is trying to keep a lid on methinks. ]]

[The boy done well]

Tony Husband on South Today earlier thought that Griffins weren't necessaily in line to take over the administration. He implied that it was more likely that their report would be used as a negotiating tool to force AA into making a better offer.

[Matthew Le God]

Tony Husband on South Today earlier thought that Griffins weren't necessaily in line to take over the administration. He implied that it was more likely that their report would be used as a negotiating tool to force AA into making a better offer.

 

If AA concedes that he can make a better offer, that shows he hasn't been acting in the best interests of the creditors. There is a huge difference between the two proposals, which potentially shows he hasn't been acting as an administrator should if Griffins offer is feasible or close to a workable level.

[benjii]

Exactly, AA's plan meant that they could be one of the higher spenders in the championship in an attempt to get promotion back to the Prem. That would only be attractive to creditors if the bonus from them on promotion was a considerably uplift on the 20p in the pound. AA's offer of a 5p bonus is **** take and the other plan shows that clearly.

 

Even if the skates get relegated into league 1 under the alternative plan the creditors will still be a lot better off than they would if the skates getting promotion under AA's plan.

 

Indeed. The Griffin plan actually assumes the skates suffer consecutive relegations in the next two years to League Two. If they stay in the Champ there will be an additional seven or eight million of tv money fir the creditors not currently accounted for in the plan.

[Gemmel]

If AA concedes that he can make a better offer, that shows he hasn't been acting in the best interests of the creditors. There is a huge difference between the two proposals, which potentially shows he hasn't been acting as an administrator should if Griffins offer is feasible or close to a workable level.

 

I actually think the damage has already been done and can't see what AA's play is from here, outside discrediting Griffins bid. Which even if he did and found flaws worth 10p in the pound, still leaves him looking like a gimp.

 

The whole Griffin document amounts to total humiliation of aa's ability to administrate, questions his ethics and implies more serious things, that given his previous record, will make it very difficult for him to work in this field for a long time.

[suewhistle]

IThe whole Griffin document amounts to total humiliation of aa's ability to administrate, questions his ethics and implies more serious things, that given his previous record, will make it very difficult for him to work in this field for a long time.

 

What a very good summary..

[dubai_phil]

I actually think the damage has already been done and can't see what AA's play is from here, outside discrediting Griffins bid. Which even if he did and found flaws worth 10p in the pound, still leaves him looking like a gimp.

 

The whole Griffin document amounts to total humiliation of aa's ability to administrate, questions his ethics and implies more serious things, that given his previous record, will make it very difficult for him to work in this field for a long time.

 

Well, one thing that I DO know for certain is that NOBODY who works in the field of Insolvency will be in the least surprised IF AA has been caught out, an Accident Waiting to Happen was the best opinion I heard

[Dark Munster]

Maybe we could press for a retrospective review of our case since the loophole was well and truly open last year

 

It's like being done for doing 40 in a 40 limit that has now been reduced to 30

Indeed. They've admitted it was a loophole, so we should get our 10 points back. :cool:

[Dark Munster]

I actually think the damage has already been done and can't see what AA's play is from here, outside discrediting Griffins bid. Which even if he did and found flaws worth 10p in the pound, still leaves him looking like a gimp.

 

The whole Griffin document amounts to total humiliation of aa's ability to administrate, questions his ethics and implies more serious things, that given his previous record, will make it very difficult for him to work in this field for a long time.

 

[Dark Munster]

That of course assumes that he wants the club's survival to be his way of getting his money back.

 

IF he wants to get ALL of his money back and MUCH more then he just needs the club to vanish so he can develop or sell the land he owns and make truckloads out of Tesco's and his Fitness First Gym

 

Doesn't the council have some control on the land's use (must be sports related)? That could seriously devalue it (not to mention being in the slum called P*********). Walk away from the land, trouser 20% of £36m: not bad if indeed his "debts" have been somewhat, shall we say, exaggerated.

[John D]

Anyone else not think that this Griffin Company is simply using pompey as a high profile case to try and get some free publicity / marketing for themselves? They don't look the most professional of outfits from their website

[Saint in Paradise]

Anyone else not think that this Griffin Company is simply using pompey as a high profile case to try and get some free publicity / marketing for themselves? They don't look the most professional of outfits from their website

 

 

Care to have a re-think ?

 

"Griffins has a long track record of obtaining extraordinary outcomes for creditors in insolvency situations.

 

Recent cases have involved international investigations, asset tracing and rescuing companies on the

instructions of creditors.

 

Our staff includes former police, SFO and DTi officers, who together with our qualified insolvency staff,

form a formidable and dedicated Investigation Team.

 

Griffins is also a specialist in reviewing the work of other Licensed Insolvency Practitioners.

 

We have recovered millions of pounds in claims against Practitioners for fraud or negligence."

 

I wonder IF some people at PFC are worried now ?

 

[Eastcowzer]

In the latest twist to 'The Skate Saga', the devious, - oops, sorry, - various proposals as supplied by Griffins, suggests a return to all creditors of approx' 0.65p/£ owed, possibly rising to 0.99p/£. What puzzles me is why the latter figure stopped at 99% of debt. Why not be brave and pay the creditors in full, or would there be a 'stealth' tax of 1%, in some shape, or form

[70's Mike]

in the latest twist to 'the skate saga', the devious, - oops, sorry, - various proposals as supplied by griffins, suggests a return to all creditors of approx' 0.65p/£ owed, possibly rising to 0.99p/£. What puzzles me is why the latter figure stopped at 99% of debt. Why not be brave and pay the creditors in full, or would there be a 'stealth' tax of 1%, in some shape, or form

 

there fees ?

[hutch]

In the latest twist to 'The Skate Saga', the devious, - oops, sorry, - various proposals as supplied by Griffins, suggests a return to all creditors of approx' 0.65p/£ owed, possibly rising to 0.99p/£. What puzzles me is why the latter figure stopped at 99% of debt. Why not be brave and pay the creditors in full, or would there be a 'stealth' tax of 1%, in some shape, or form

For some reason, in my experience liquidators don't like the words "in full".

 

I recently reached a settlement with a liquidator on a long-running dispute. The Agreement is at 99p in the £ (well 99c in the R actually, but you know what I mean), but the "Without Prejudice" (i.e. non-binding) correspondence from the liquidator's attorney says that the liquidators are hopeful that there will be a surplus after final distribution. That means that I expect to receive more than 100c, but the liquidator will only sign up for 99c.

[trousers]

Isn't the whole raison d'être for going into administration the fact that the company is unable to pay it's creditors in full? If it transpires that there is enough cash swilling around to pay the creditors '99%' ( or 'in full' to all intents and purposes) then doesn't that negate the rationale for going into administration in the first place?

 

Slightly confused of 'Ampshire

[hutch]

Isn't the whole raison d'être for going into administration the fact that the company is unable to pay it's creditors in full? If it transpires that there is enough cash swilling around to pay the creditors '99%' ( or 'in full' to all intents and purposes) then doesn't that negate the rationale for going into administration in the first place?

 

Slightly confused of 'Ampshire

I'll choose my words carefully here.

 

Yes, you are right. But there are rare occasions where unscrupulous Companies or owners attempt to abuse the administration process in order to write off all of their debts, sack a few of the staff and carry on as if nothing had happened.

 

I'm not suggesting that that's the case here though

 

By the way, do you have double glazing?

[sidthesquid]

The delusion continues....

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Recruitment-drive-begins-despite-uncertain.6349342.jp

 

I particularly liked this last sentence.....

 

'I will say, however, we will not be paying £15,000 a week in salaries. We have reduced our pay levels to a maximum of £10,000 a week. Anyone not wishing to meet that ceiling will not be considered.'

 

Wasn't having half a dozen players on £10k/week the root of our downfall?

[sidthesquid]

What I still can't get my head around is Handy Andy he needs to comment at all. Is it something in the water down there? First Harry, then Storrie, now this nutter all feel the overwhelming need to spout perpetual bullsh1t and pass comment for the sake of it. Even the more sentient Skates seem to be getting tired of it.

[Chin Strain]

There was some scally on The News site called West Sai saying something very similar. Apparently, he was accused of being in cahoots with some other fella called Chin who also posts on there.

 

Those Skates are getting paranoid; the whole World is against them and none of it is their fault.

 

Ahem.....

[trousers]

I'll choose my words carefully here.

 

Yes, you are right. But there are rare occasions where unscrupulous Companies or owners attempt to abuse the administration process in order to write off all of their debts, sack a few of the staff and carry on as if nothing had happened.

 

I'm not suggesting that that's the case here though

 

By the way, do you have double glazing?

 

Yes. May I ask why for why thou doth enquire sir?

[benjii]

Isn't the whole raison d'être for going into administration the fact that the company is unable to pay it's creditors in full? If it transpires that there is enough cash swilling around to pay the creditors '99%' ( or 'in full' to all intents and purposes) then doesn't that negate the rationale for going into administration in the first place?

 

Slightly confused of 'Ampshire

 

You have to be able to pay your debts as they fall due, not based on an aggregation of your next five years' revenue and a unilaterally imposed installment plan!

[Joensuu]

Isn't the whole raison d'être for going into administration the fact that the company is unable to pay it's creditors in full? If it transpires that there is enough cash swilling around to pay the creditors '99%' ( or 'in full' to all intents and purposes) then doesn't that negate the rationale for going into administration in the first place?

 

Slightly confused of 'Ampshire

 

It's 65% repayment, unless the crooked Russian abandons the £34 million he claims he is due.

 

Oh, and the 65% CVA is over 5 years. The only way it makes ends meet is if you use the income over 5 years, and spend very prudently. Based on this years income alone, they are well and truely insolvent. If you spend any debt over enough years of income (and fix expenditure) the debt will eventually become affordable.

 

Oh, and (correct me if I'm wrong), I didn't see the 65% CVA mention the secured debt. Does this have to be paid/settled upfront by a prosective club purchaser? If so, that would be even more debt that the club essentially can't afford to pay off without administration.

[Joensuu]

The delusion continues....

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Recruitment-drive-begins-despite-uncertain.6349342.jp

 

I particularly liked this last sentence.....

 

'I will say, however, we will not be paying £15,000 a week in salaries. We have reduced our pay levels to a maximum of £10,000 a week. Anyone not wishing to meet that ceiling will not be considered.'

 

Wasn't having half a dozen players on £10k/week the root of our downfall?

 

That's crazy. Mind you I'm starting to really want his autograph. Perhaps on a skate shirt with the name of a certain form of heated bread product across the back.

[Gemmel]

Yes. May I ask why for why thou doth enquire sir?

 

Because a lot of doule glazing companies put themselves through administration, drop the debt and return as an other - The same example as he was citing with companies that abuse the admin process.

[rallyboy]

did I spy a little gem at the FL meeting? - it looks like they will be asking to see the latest accounts and the last I heard they hadn't filed any, does anyone recall that?

Assuming that hasn't changed, Pompey will fall foul of a new ruling.

 

It would leave them under a transfer embargo already.

 

If so it will only be lifted when they file accounts - and that will lay bare some facts that might clash with one or two of their 'financial reports' previously lodged with courts and expose AA's debt-creation scheme so he'll be in no hurry.

 

If the press report of the meeting is correct and the league back their word, Pompey can't recruit players.

[Joey-deacons-left-nut]

Storrie is in court today.. the Eyel Berkovic tax dodge this time...

[trousers]

Because a lot of doule glazing companies put themselves through administration, drop the debt and return as an other - The same example as he was citing with companies that abuse the admin process.

 

Ah, Ok....slow brain morning in Trouserland. cheers

[OldNick]

interesting revelations in the last couple of days it seems. The griffin thing looks to have put a spanner in the works. if it is being used solely as a negotiating tool to get AA to panic to up the offer would be disappointing. Anything less than a -10 points penalty would be a case of them really getting away with it.Real punishment for all the good times had would be relegation a couple of leagues minimum IMO.

The new penalties that the FL are talking about will miss Pompey as they are already in admin.

i still am reserving my judgment until I see what does happen in the coming weeks. it does seem a tad more encouraging that people like Storrie HR MM and co may be brought to justice.

Westons news also makes one think that it is not going to be as easy as AA makes out.

[stevegrant]

Real punishment for all the good times had would be relegation a couple of leagues minimum IMO.

Barry Hearn (Leyton Orient chairman) put that very proposal forward at the Football League's AGM, but the majority voted against it.

[Guided Missile]

I see from this article that Andrew Andronikou still thinks he's still playing Championship Manager. What a pr !ck...

[JackFrost]

The News (as in the local paper) reporting this morning that Pompey won't face points penalties next season but will the season after if their still in admin.

[ottery st mary]

Accounts still not filed.

 

Vantis were never privvy to full accounts? Were there any available at that time....doubtful as someone was still putting the Storrrrie together..

 

At some stage Gaydermen ,Mirage ,Chinman and others will have to PROVE that they are owed stated amounts of monies....With no accounts this will be difficult.

 

Someone at Pompey will need a CHEF sooner or later to do the books as so far the ingredients are all over the kitchen.

 

Come on you HMRC and you boyzzz and girlzz at Griffin.

[Alanh]

interesting revelations in the last couple of days it seems. The griffin thing looks to have put a spanner in the works. if it is being used solely as a negotiating tool to get AA to panic to up the offer would be disappointing. Anything less than a -10 points penalty would be a case of them really getting away with it.Real punishment for all the good times had would be relegation a couple of leagues minimum IMO.

The new penalties that the FL are talking about will miss Pompey as they are already in admin.

i still am reserving my judgment until I see what does happen in the coming weeks. it does seem a tad more encouraging that people like Storrie HR MM and co may be brought to justice.

Westons news also makes one think that it is not going to be as easy as AA makes out.

You need to get your head around the fact that they have already had their punishment for going into admin - that was the -9 from the PL. Any further points deductions will be because of financial irregularities uncovered from things like the liquidators report, or if any of Storrie, Twitchy or Mandaric are found guilty in their personal trials. None of these things are going to be resolved before the start of next season.

 

If they can't exit admin before the start of the season, most likely because the CVA hasn't been agreed, then they will just have a transfer embargo.

[lumuah]

Is this thread still going?

 

Yes.

 

HTH

[Gemmel]

Is this thread still going?

 

To be fair it's only just got going;

 

1) Billionaire new owner - Fail

2) New Billionaire owner - Fail (Didn't exist)

3) 3rd New Billionaire owner / Creditor - Fail

4) Admin appointed

5) Admin - At point of failing

6) ???

7)????

????

9)???

10) ????

 

 

Long way to run yet

[dubai_phil]

You need to get your head around the fact that they have already had their punishment for going into admin - that was the -9 from the PL. Any further points deductions will be because of financial irregularities uncovered from things like the liquidators report, or if any of Storrie, Twitchy or Mandaric are found guilty in their personal trials. None of these things are going to be resolved before the start of next season.

 

If they can't exit admin before the start of the season, most likely because the CVA hasn't been agreed, then they will just have a transfer embargo.

 

Quite true.

 

They cannot be punished twice for the same Admin, but for failure to agree a CVA and repay the Footballing Debts will place them in trouble. They can't pay the Footballing Debts off at 100% without a CVA, so a second area of problems for them.

 

The accounts revealed by AA in a public statement showed that PFC had paid fees to an agent on a transfer deal who was NOT registered by UEFA.

 

Use of un-authorised agents falls into a different set of rules of the kind that Luton fell foul of. Their defence that it was former Directors was dismissed and they received additional Penalties.

 

 

 

Game still has a long way to run

[angelman]

I too find this ceiling of £10,000 per week risible.

 

THEY HAVE NO MONEY.

 

Maybe the ceiling should be £5000 per week or even £2500 per week. I think that you would be able to get a lot of professional football players playing for your team for that amount. Whether they can be competitive in the CCC is immaterial. AA has a duty to pay the creditors rather than making sure that PFC can compete in CCC.

 

£10k a week is £520,000 a year. Not a bad wage!! £5k is £260,000 a year. £2.5k a week is £130,000 a year. I imagine that most people on here would be happy with £2.5k a week, let alone £10k a week. If I was a creditor, I would be mighty ****ed off with AA saying that he is prepared to still pay ridiculous wages - frankly £10k a week for most/all players is far too much, especially when THERE IS NO MONEY and huge debts still outstanding. I know some get paid £125k a week but that is the insanity that is modern football.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Let's face it, the Blue Few have a completely bankrupt club to support.

 

Morally and financially bankrupt.

That is one thing which cannot be changed by 'clever' PR and news articles. The general public now know that the administration is, at best 'flawed'.

 

I see Storrieteller's in court again today. Getting quite regular...they'll be having a special car parking spot for Pompey soon...

 

I was always one of the first to criticise RupeyBaby, but to be honest, in comparison to that shower of.....he really was a Saint in comparison.

 

Wonder if Rupey will send Mandaric some soap on a rope for use in the future? Great revenge for that duck.....

[FMPR]

I too find this ceiling of £10,000 per week risible.

 

THEY HAVE NO MONEY.

 

Maybe the ceiling should be £5000 per week or even £2500 per week. I think that you would be able to get a lot of professional football players playing for your team for that amount. Whether they can be competitive in the CCC is immaterial. AA has a duty to pay the creditors rather than making sure that PFC can compete in CCC.

 

£10k a week is £520,000 a year. Not a bad wage!! £5k is £260,000 a year. £2.5k a week is £130,000 a year. I imagine that most people on here would be happy with £2.5k a week, let alone £10k a week. If I was a creditor, I would be mighty ****ed off with AA saying that he is prepared to still pay ridiculous wages - frankly £10k a week for most/all players is far too much, especially when THERE IS NO MONEY and huge debts still outstanding. I know some get paid £125k a week but that is the insanity that is modern football.

 

Yet Lambert who has played League One and below his entire career is on £9k a week plus goal bonus I suspect. Most normal people would be happy with that however football is a different beast. How much do you think Fonte is on or has he only come down the coast for the view?

[JackFrost]

Yet Lambert who has played League One and below his entire career is on £9k a week plus goal bonus I suspect. Most normal people would be happy with that however football is a different beast. How much do you think Fonte is on or has he only come down the coast for the view?

 

Difference is we can afford to pay them

[saintjay77]

I'm not! I think, that if they are even in exsitance come the start of a new season, it will be one of a series of points deductions, as each Ex director falls foul of the legal system. If they survive, I think they will be lucky to escape with -20 odd points, but then I'm an optimist;)

 

Personally I cant see how the FL can let them join the CCC without any points penalty. Im pretty sure Poopy went into Admin pretty late in the season and therefor after the date that FL clubs have to stick by so to keep things fair in the FL Poopy should be treated in the same way.

 

That would mean they start with -10 automatically. Then on top of that there is the possibility of further points reductions for possibly failing to come out of admin with an agreed CVA and even more for the financial irregularitys. It would be nice if these penaltys are spread over a couple of seasons. Rather than being hit with so many points in the CCC that relegation is certain but the following season a clean slate is created.

 

But the FL still havent said one way or the other. The administrators and press still seem to report things as if they will start the CCC on 0 points.

 

If that happenes then where does it leave us? Is there room to challenge our - points for this last season? Or would there be an argument for FL clubs to challenge Poopy's 0 points status?

 

When will the FL speak up and say whats lilkly to happen? When will someone publicly ask the FL?

[Matthew Le God]

Yet Lambert who has played League One and below his entire career is on £9k a week plus goal bonus I suspect. Most normal people would be happy with that however football is a different beast. How much do you think Fonte is on or has he only come down the coast for the view?

 

The administrators job is to seek the best deal for the creditors. Pompey don't have to pay players 10k p/w, as Griffins have outlined the wage budget should be £5m per year not the £10m AA thinks it should be.

 

Saints can afford to pay Lambert his £9k p/w for his 31 League Goals as they have 20k+ crowds and no creditors to pay back. A luxury Pompey are a long way from having.

[FMPR]

But 9k is a Top League One wage its not a championship budget. Cannot remember who it was but remember reading when Charlton went to sign someone in the Championship (forward from Crewe iirc) there opening gambit was 15k a week and that was just a squad player.

[Joensuu]

But 9k is a Top League One wage its not a championship budget. Cannot remember who it was but remember reading when Charlton went to sign someone in the Championship (forward from Crewe iirc) there opening gambit was 15k a week and that was just a squad player.

 

That's interesting, but pretty irrelevent. In the Premiership we had a wage cap of £16k. If Charlton are willing to pay close to that right now, then they are living way beyond their means. Southampton, can afford to pay mid-table Championship wages (c. £9k per week for our top players), only because our income exceeds our expenses (we don't have any debt, but do have a large attendance).

 

I want a Ferrari, but alas I don't have the income. Perhaps if I pretend I can afford it, take deliverly of the car, but budget to never pay the for it..

[Matthew Le God]

But 9k is a Top League One wage its not a championship budget. Cannot remember who it was but remember reading when Charlton went to sign someone in the Championship (forward from Crewe iirc) there opening gambit was 15k a week and that was just a squad player.

 

It is not AA's job to ensure the club remain competitive in the Championship. It is his job to get the best deal for the creditors. If the money they could be getting goes towards giving players £500k p/a then something is wrong.

 

Hence why Griffins - a firm that specialises in investigating other insolvency firms practice - have produced a report that massively differs from AA.

 

AA has a far from spotless record as an administrator.

 

Griffins proposed CVA is made with the scenario of relegation to League Two built into it. It doesn't matter to them if the club is relegated or competitive in the Championship. Yes, staying in the League may give more money, but that is counter balanced by the amount of wages you have to pay to stay there.

 

Griffins proposal of 65p in the £ (guaranteed at 50p in the £ and possibly rising to 99p in the £) works EVEN if the club falls to League Two.

 

Compare that to AA's offer of 20p in the £ and which would you prefer if you were an impartial creditor?

Edited 9 June, 2010 by Matthew Le God

[Joensuu]

Oh, and some basic (and highly innaccurate) Charlton related maths for FMPR.

 

TV income c. £300k

Matchday income c. 350k (average gate * £20).

Total Season income c. £8.5 million

 

Now if Charlton spend a maximum of 66% of their income on that would leave c. £5.6 million wage budget. or c. £4300 per player per week (based on a squad of 25 players)

 

For Charlton to be paying £15,000 for a 'squad' player would be financial madness, and that's assuming Charlton don't have debts to repay (which they do!).

Edited 9 June, 2010 by Joensuu

[Chin Strain]

But 9k is a Top League One wage its not a championship budget. Cannot remember who it was but remember reading when Charlton went to sign someone in the Championship (forward from Crewe iirc) there opening gambit was 15k a week and that was just a squad player.

 

TBF I don't think you can compare us to even the other top L1 teams. We happen to be in the luxurious position of having a very wealthy backer. I think our wage bill would be comparable with a mid to higher Championship team.

 

Re the Crewe example, there will always be some players / agents that ask ridiculous money. I think if you look at the recent facts on wage budgets in the CCC, £10m p.a. would be top end. Based on Pompey's likely gate receipts and other income that is a completely unworkable figure.

[Weston Super Saint]

Yet Lambert who has played League One and below his entire career is on £9k a week plus goal bonus I suspect. Most normal people would be happy with that however football is a different beast. How much do you think Fonte is on or has he only come down the coast for the view?

 

Irrelevant really.

 

Go back and see how much we were paying the 'kids' in our relegation season, and we still went into admin for spending more than we earnt....

[trousers]

The new penalties that the FL are talking about will miss Pompey as they are already in admin.

 

The Football League didn't stop applying an aspirational rule to our situation a year ago that has only just been ratified this week.....I thus venture that logic and chronology doesn't always come into their decision making criteria.....