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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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Doctoroncall

Doctoroncall

Posted
Posted (edited)
Yes, as far as I'm aware.

 

There is a time limit that a company can be in admin though, IIRC it's 12 months although that can be extended with creditors’ and Court’s permission.

 

According to the Football League, Southampton FC was (to all intents and purposes) 'Southampton Leisure Holdings" so there would (in theory) be no creditors of SLH in isolation.....unless the Football League were wrong all along of course.....

 

The FL is a members club, so for the purposes of a place in the league they could do what they want given the mandate by majority. Hence why we got hit and Leeds even though they had an agreed CVA.

Edited by Doctoroncall
not wanting to add to my post count!
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hutch

hutch

Posted
Posted

An extract from the footnote to the Arbitration Award in Leeds United v The Football League, where Leeds tried to overturn the 15 point deduction:

 

4. We accept that the imposition of the 15 points in the instant case was not (and was not intended to be) a precedent, i.e. an automatic sanction in the absence of a CVA. Each case has to be assessed by the League having regard to the Club’s individual circumstances leading up to and of the insolvency itself. Such Conditions as the League considers are required will reflect these circumstances and any merits the Club can establish.

Although dealing with sanctions for not achieveing a CVA, which remains to be seen in Pompey's case, this certainly reinforces the League's discretionary powers in these cases. And they don't like cheats.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
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Much depends on what company the contract was with under SLH. My brother had and still has one with the football club and was owed money but obviously didn't get paid as there wasn't any money coming into the club. Once the club was sold he got paid. If he had the agreement with SLH or another subsidiary that got liquidated then who knows what would have happened.

 

So here is anecdotal evidence that a creditor of the football club did receive payment from Markus Liebherr after he had bought the club. I sincerely hope that there weren't many more, or it might start to fuel an urban myth. ;)

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Gemmel

Gemmel

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Posted
Much depends on what company the contract was with under SLH. My brother had and still has one with the football club and was owed money but obviously didn't get paid as there wasn't any money coming into the club. Once the club was sold he got paid. If he had the agreement with SLH or another subsidiary that got liquidated then who knows what would have happened.

 

Did he get paid in full ....as in the original amount he was owed or at the rate that Mark Fry negociated?

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
Not much help there.

 

I believe the answer lies in a document known as "The Football League Insolvency Policy". I couldn't find a copy.

 

Well having now skim-read the league rules I can nothing in there that would lead to Pompey having another points deduction next year reagardless of admin, cva or not.

 

The only reason would be another offence, such as not payiong what is due to another club. There is perhaps a possibility that they will default on the full payments due to other clubs as and when they come out of administration. Or if they stay in admin there may well be further payments due that they default on.

 

It looks to me that Bournemouth, Rotherham etc were hit because new companies were formed and applied to be admitted in place of the original ones.

 

So those rules read to me I'd say that pompey fans can be reasonably confident of no extra points deduction next season unless the club officially folds (because no CVA) and re-forms after it becomes a FL club.

 

That probsably explains why we have no clear agreement on any deadline in terms of administration or a CVA .. there isn't one!

 

But the whole thing is clouded. Typical football lack of clarity. No wonder there is so much money wasted on dubious deals etc.

 

K.

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted
An extract from the footnote to the Arbitration Award in Leeds United v The Football League, where Leeds tried to overturn the 15 point deduction:

 

4. We accept that the imposition of the 15 points in the instant case was not (and was not intended to be) a precedent, i.e. an automatic sanction in the absence of a CVA.
Each case has to be assessed by the League having regard to the Club’s individual circumstances leading up to and of the insolvency itself.
Such Conditions as the League considers are required will reflect these circumstances and any merits the Club can establish.

Although dealing with sanctions for not achieveing a CVA, which remains to be seen in Pompey's case, this certainly reinforces the League's discretionary powers in these cases. And they don't like cheats.

 

I think this is a great catch-all for all eventualities. They can and will do as they wish

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FloridaMarlin

FloridaMarlin

Posted
Posted
You always find these little interesting snippets - this from the Admin report:

 

D) COMPANY APPOINTMENTS AND SHAREHOLDINGS

Current Director: P Storrie (compromise reached)

M Jacob (made redundant)

 

By definition, if Jacob - or more technically, his post - was declared redundant, he was an employee. I presume that was admitted.

 

If so what was that post, and it presumably no longer exists? Which makes the appointment of the chap from the FA look even more superfluous.

 

And don't you just love the ambiguity that can exist in such a statement as "Compromise reached"?

 

That could be absolutely anything, and by the looks of his continued presence at the club, probably is.

 

The only possible reason for him still being at the club is that he knows too much.

 

To paraphrase the immortal General George S Patton: It's better to have him on the inside of the tent ****ing out, than on the outside of the tent, ****ing in.

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rallyboy

rallyboy

Posted
Posted

and AA seems convinced that the club will now be self-funding.

On 10,000 gates and a £10K a week wage cap, with Storrie back in doing the accounts.

 

So he doesn't need a new owner or further investment, the glory days are around the corner!

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Gorgiesaint

Gorgiesaint

Posted
Posted
18th June creditors meeting to decide.

 

A day after the fixture lists come out.

 

With HMRC having 28 days to appeal any of the dodgy dealings, I suspect this will be going back to court in mid July - and Pompey will be getting -17 points shortly afterwards.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted

 

 

Methinks this is the area, that all these creditors need be wary of....

 

 

The 20 pence offer is payable over five years, with 75% of unsecured creditors needing to support the CVA.

 

That is 4 pence per year:smt103, will they still exist in five years, once Chainrai has taken what he can, I doubt it. I give it two years under this guise, that is 8p gents, 8 frigging pence in the pound:smt036

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derry

derry

Posted
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I think what happened re Saints debts was the Stadium mortgage was settled at an agreed price with Aviva, The SLH debts were settled by the Administrator out of the sale of the Assets to Markus Leibherr.

 

SFC Ltd was one of the assets that he purchased and as it was solvent and trading, its debts even if overdue were settled in full, whilst SLH Ltd stripped of it's assets left it's debtors to be paid an agreed proportion in settlement from the money raised from the assets.

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted
Methinks this is the area, that all these creditors need be wary of....

 

 

The 20 pence offer is payable over five years, with 75% of unsecured creditors needing to support the CVA.

 

That is 4 pence per year:smt103, will they still exist in five years, once Chainrai has taken what he can, I doubt it. I give it two years under this guise, that is 8p gents, 8 frigging pence in the pound:smt036

 

Basically it seems that the CHEATS are going to get away with paying the creditors less than they will receive in parachute payments. How can that be right?

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teamsaint

teamsaint

Posted
Posted

If I was a creditor being offered 20p in the £ over 5 years, I would be asking how AA's figures stack up for the restructured company

 

To get my measly 4 % PA the club has to at least break even. How on earth are they going to do that with the parachute payments all but spoken for on football debt, and a proposed £10m PA wage bill?

(we can safely assume that most of the top earners will have to be given away).

 

I would vote against, unless AA proposes a wage bill of £5m tops, at which level they have some chance of breaking even.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
bloody hell Phil, I thought you'd slipped through onto the dark side for a moment there.

 

I still see their financial planning as built on sand, with further charges to come.

 

hehehehe

 

Been difficult week to keep up, me mum is a Technology desert so not able to keep much up to date!

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Graffito

Graffito

Posted
Posted
That rule won't apply in this case. It is only for those going into admin between the end of the Prem season and the AGM of the Football League in June.

 

That's not how I understand what the rules say.

 

I've highlighted the relevant bits:

 

If any club relegated to the League from The Premier League (in accordance with the Rules of The Premier League) whilst it was a member of The Premier League, took or suffered any such action as set out in Regulation 12.3.1 of these regulations at any time following the end of the season (as defined in the Rules of The Premier League) but before it becomes a member of The League, then that club, upon being accepted as a member of The League in accordance with Regulations 7.4 and 10.1 shall suffer a deduction of 10 points, such points deduction to apply in respect of the following Season such that the Club starts that Season in Division One on minus 10 points. reduced number of Clubs.

 

So if a club enters into a CVA (one of the criteria at 12.3.1) after it is relegated but before it becomes a member of the football league, then upon being accepted by the football league it starts on -10 points.

 

These are the FL rules. The 9 point deduction for going into admin was administered under the PL rules and it was 9 points and not 10 points as referred to in the FL rules quoted above.

 

This rule also seems to me to be about events (e.g. a CVA) during the period between relegation and membership of the FL.

 

Therefore, the rule at 12.3.4, that a club gets only one 10 points deduction for multiple offences, does not apply where Admin occurs as a PL club under PL rules and a CVA is entered after relegation but before admission to the FL.

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Saint_John

Saint_John

Posted
Posted
Suggests he believes HMRC will accept although he has contradicted himself and made gaffs throughout his administration.

 

 

I'm not sure I read it that way.

The Skate News has the following quote

Joint-administrator Michael Kiely told The News yesterday: 'We're still finalising the details and we hope to send out the proposal to creditors by the end of the week.'

 

It is likely the CVA proposal will be sent out to creditors tomorrow morning, ahead of the planned creditors' committee meeting to be held with administrators tomorrow afternoon.

 

After the CVA proposal is sent out, creditors will be given 14 days notice of a meeting of all the club's creditors. At this meeting, creditors will vote on whether to agree fully, agree conditionally or refuse the deal the administrators are offering.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Pompey-season-ticket-sales-off.6319666.jp

 

Normally there would only be choice between Agree and Refuse, I have never seen a "agree conditionally" before.

 

What does that mean ? What Conditions ? Is this the way HMRC are going to take the "Football Creditors" rule back to the High Court.

 

I was reading the following the other day http://insolvency.mercerhole.co.uk/

which has the following

Many commentators (from CRITique via The Lawyer and accountingweb to The Daily Mail and The Telegraph) are now questioning whether the football creditors rule can survive, especially as its abolition has been proposed by the All Party Parliamentary Group on Football and questioned in parliament.
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Right sider

Right sider

Posted
Posted

This is the last bit from the bbc piece

 

The creditors of Pompey might also want to look at Swindon's experience in a similar process," added Thomas.

 

"There a similar CVA lasted five years but came close to failing when the club struggled to meet a final year 'balloon' payment."

 

 

Wonder if this could lead to further problems down the line for the skates.

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Katalinic

Katalinic

Posted
Posted
I cannot see Lampitt giving up that cushey job at FA to go to poopey. I reckon the FA have put him in (Head of Football Integrity) to sniff out more underhand dealings and to see what Androcles is up to. I bet Lampitt's job has been left open at the FA.

 

Looks like you could have been right.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)

 

Read the bar on the right hand side of the page.

 

Disclaimer

 

These are the independent views of GoldenBoot and are not necessarily shared by the Publishers of myPompey.

 

 

Furthermore it is likely to contain tongue-in-cheek content which should be treated as such.

Edited by Matthew Le God
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FloridaMarlin

FloridaMarlin

Posted
Posted

 

Couple of inconsistencies in there, not least of which is how the FA can guarantee that p***ey receive the parachute money.

 

Perhaps somebody can enlighten me as to how the FA can force the Premier League to cough up the cash.

 

It would make some sort of sense for the English game's governing body to want to put somebody in to investigate the murk, but I think the FA would do it and announce it properly, and not allow p***ey to portray it as this former high-powered FA official they have head-hunted and attracted on to their board (with presumably a tasty salary to tempt him).

 

Biggest question mark of all is the claim that the FA will take control of and run p***ey.

 

My understanding is that the FA's rules expressly forbid it from running clubs and league competitions. The only thing the FA run is its raft of cup competitions.

 

But if anyone knows any different.

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted
Radio Solent reported at 7.50 this morning that they are going on a summer tour of the USA. 3 different destinations including San Diego. They said that the trip would be "cost neutral". Having a job getting my brain round this one. A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all? Can that be? If I was the taxman owed £34m I think I might have something to say about this.

Say it's not so! That means I have to give them a warm welcome. I'd better get my Saints shirt out, and start preparing some rotten eggs and tomatoes.

 

CHEATING BASTARDS

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EastleighSoulBoy

EastleighSoulBoy

Posted
Posted

 

Well well well.......haha :-D

 

This fan has got it sussed.

 

kev pompey brown wrote re: Revealed: FA to take control of Portsmouth within the next seven days

on Wed, May 26 2010 4:28 PM

in my eyes this is just speculative talk no hard evidence yet so cant blame pompey supporters 4 bein suspiscious corse i hope that we ge ttakin over by multi million aire 200 mill wipes debt then another 50 - 100 mill 2 rebuild team is god listenin

 

 

 

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Saint_clark

Saint_clark

Posted
Posted

I have to admit, I didn't have the energy to follow the saga as closely as I have done in the past. So I have no real idea what's been happening lately.

But from what I can gather quickly flicking through - it looks like this is DEFINITELY not going to be settled before the fixtures are released? Meaning that they will DEFINITELY get a points deduction next season?

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