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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted
Chanrai has got the creditors over a barrel.

 

Because of the way they have structured the debt here is no chance of anyone else buying the club and because of the parachute payments there is nothing to gain from liquidating the club so they can force through a CVA that fleeces everyone.

 

Chanrai will get a CVA that suits him, he will bleed the carcass dry for a year or two then they will probably be in admin again some time in the near future.

 

:smt038

 

bigstockphoto_hammer_striking_nail_w_sparks_333329.jpg

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Dark Munster

Dark Munster

Posted
Posted (edited)
Of course Saints did.

 

If not Saints wouldn't have started on -10, it would be a lot more in the way of points deducted ala Rotherham, Bournemouth & Leeds or not at all and just thrown out.

 

It seems so. Automatic -10 for going into administration, regardless of a CVA.

 

Extra point deductions for those not coming out of administration with a CVA.

Edited by Dark Munster
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benjii

benjii

Posted
Posted (edited)

I think we may have been "let off" not having a CVA because we did have an agreement acceptable to the creditors, albeit not a CVA in name.

 

Again, I may be wrong though.

 

The requirement for a CVA is not a "gold-plating"; CVAs are genuinely **** and often not adhered to. They are seldom good news for creditors. The rules of the FL are purely designed to ensure that some sort of minimum standard of creditor satisfaction is encouraged IMO. If a Swiss billionaire turns up and says "here's a load of cash" and the creditors say "thanks, that is fine" then the notion of a CVA is a bit redundant as the PLC was not continuing to trade; its assets were sold off to Lieberr.

Edited by benjii
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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

Posted
Posted
We did not have a CVA.

 

A CVA is a means of exiting adminstration. SLH PLC did not exit administration.

 

I think.

 

Actually, thinking about it, I'm not sure.

 

I have not actually double checked Companies House (to confirm with the documents filed) but... SLH PLC went into admin and if it hasn't already been liquidated will be shortly.

 

Southampton football club limited was bought by Marcus (or his holding co anyway) and has never been in administration.

 

Before any skates start to get tetchy, this was not a scam to avoid a CVA becuase Marcus appears to have a spectacular sense of honour and paid enough for everyone to be paid.

 

In full.

 

Not something I expect to happen down the road.

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saint si

saint si

Posted
Posted
I have not actually double checked Companies House (to confirm with the documents filed) but... SLH PLC went into admin and if it hasn't already been liquidated will be shortly.

 

Southampton football club limited was bought by Marcus (or his holding co anyway) and has never been in administration.

 

Before any skates start to get tetchy, this was not a scam to avoid a CVA becuase Marcus appears to have a spectacular sense of honour and paid enough for everyone to be paid.

 

In full.

 

Not something I expect to happen down the road.

 

 

Correct. The football club was never technically in admin, and therefore couldn't actually come out of admin with a CVA. We got the points penalty because the holding company was in admin ("blah blah inextricably linked blah blah"). When the football club was bought from the holding company, that link was broken.

 

However, surprised the FL didn't dock us points for not having a CVA anyway!

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Gemmel

Gemmel

Posted
Posted
I have not actually double checked Companies House (to confirm with the documents filed) but... SLH PLC went into admin and if it hasn't already been liquidated will be shortly.

 

Southampton football club limited was bought by Marcus (or his holding co anyway) and has never been in administration.

 

Before any skates start to get tetchy, this was not a scam to avoid a CVA becuase Marcus appears to have a spectacular sense of honour and paid enough for everyone to be paid.

 

In full.

 

Not something I expect to happen down the road.

 

I have found a bit and correct my statement, that we didn't get a CVA;

 

However, the Football League has confirmed to the Echo on more than one occasion in the last week that extra point deductions are NOT an issue.

 

The only scenario where further deductions can take place is if a CVA is not properly agreed upon exiting administration and, in Saints’ case, a CVA does not apply

 

This above was in the Echo citing Lynams mob and Clapham, whilst you are more qualified than all of us here, i just can't accept that when the club was for sale at 13 million and we then sold Drew Surman for 2 million, that Marcus then went and paid 29 million for it due to his honour.

 

I accept that the debts were discharged in full, but these were at the negociated rate by Mark Fry.... i.e Will you except "X" in the pound, for full and final settlement.

 

or have I missed something?

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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

Posted
Posted (edited)
I have found a bit and correct my statement, that we didn't get a CVA;

 

However, the Football League has confirmed to the Echo on more than one occasion in the last week that extra point deductions are NOT an issue.

 

The only scenario where further deductions can take place is if a CVA is not properly agreed upon exiting administration and, in Saints’ case, a CVA does not apply

 

This above was in the Echo citing Lynams mob and Clapham, whilst you are more qualified than all of us here, i just can't accept that when the club was for sale at 13 million and we then sold Drew Surman for 2 million, that Marcus then went and paid 29 million for it due to his honour.

 

I accept that the debts were discharged in full, but these were at the negociated rate by Mark Fry.... i.e Will you except "X" in the pound, for full and final settlement.

 

or have I missed something?

 

Obviously I wasn't party to the negotiations however I very very much doubt that Fry anticpated getting anything like paid in full.

 

My source is a partner at my firm. His source was Mark Fry.

 

The administrators recipts and payments (which have to be filed at companies house) will show exactly what was paid. As I said earlier I haven't actually checked for them myself but as soon as they are filed they are public documents.

 

Edit: And for clarity the honour bit was my embelishment rather than from Mr Fry's lips, however I would bet my life that (assuming it is true that everybody was paid in full) Marcus didn't need to pay anything like that amount to buy the club.

Edited by Clapham Saint
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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
It seems grossly unfair at how they are being made to jump through hoops while the nefarious goings on some 40 miles away barely attract anything anywhere near as punitive punishment.

 

Bloody disgusting.

 

Different governing bodies.

 

(You also don't know what the Football League will do in the summer)

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
I have found a bit and correct my statement, that we didn't get a CVA;

 

However, the Football League has confirmed to the Echo on more than one occasion in the last week that extra point deductions are NOT an issue.

 

The only scenario where further deductions can take place is if a CVA is not properly agreed upon exiting administration and, in Saints’ case, a CVA does not apply

 

This above was in the Echo citing Lynams mob and Clapham, whilst you are more qualified than all of us here, i just can't accept that when the club was for sale at 13 million and we then sold Drew Surman for 2 million, that Marcus then went and paid 29 million for it due to his honour.

 

I accept that the debts were discharged in full, but these were at the negociated rate by Mark Fry.... i.e Will you except "X" in the pound, for full and final settlement.

 

or have I missed something?

 

I said ages ago, that this was the case, I was Poo Poo'd on here. There was a little snippit in a continental newspaper that said this was the case. Also something said by NC!, along the lines that all debts were paid by ML.

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treggs23

treggs23

Posted
Posted
I said ages ago, that this was the case, I was Poo Poo'd on here. There was a little snippit in a continental newspaper that said this was the case. Also something said by NC!, along the lines that all debts were paid by ML.

 

did that not just mean completely paid rather than the debt payments rescheduled??

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Guided Missile

Guided Missile

Posted
Posted (edited)
I have not actually double checked Companies House (to confirm with the documents filed) but... SLH PLC went into admin and if it hasn't already been liquidated will be shortly.

 

Southampton football club limited was bought by Marcus (or his holding co anyway) and has never been in administration.

 

Before any skates start to get tetchy, this was not a scam to avoid a CVA becuase Marcus appears to have a spectacular sense of honour and paid enough for everyone to be paid.

 

In full.

 

Not something I expect to happen down the road.

 

Where did you get the impression that everyone was paid in full????

 

I downloaded the final Report of the joint administrators, dated 22nd February, 2010, prior to the liquidation of Southampton Leisure Holding a couple months ago. This reports that "the joint administrators completed the sale of the main assets of the Company, including its shareholding in Southampton Football Club Limited...Marchwood Training ground...Jackson's farm development land."

 

It goes on to state "All of these assets were subject to security and details of the sale are subject to confidentiality. The joint administrators confirm that the value of the assets sold was significantly less than the amounts outstanding to the secured creditors and accordingly, no monies are available from the sale of these assets for the benefit of unsecured creditors. As part of the transaction, the secured creditors agreed full and final settlements...."

 

Let's not start any ridiculous urban myths, shall we....?

Edited by Guided Missile
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The boy done well

The boy done well

Posted
Posted

Radio Solent reported at 7.50 this morning that they are going on a summer tour of the USA. 3 different destinations including San Diego. They said that the trip would be "cost neutral". Having a job getting my brain round this one. A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all? Can that be? If I was the taxman owed £34m I think I might have something to say about this.

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Gorgiesaint

Gorgiesaint

Posted
Posted
Radio Solent reported at 7.50 this morning that they are going on a summer tour of the USA. 3 different destinations including San Diego. They said that the trip would be "cost neutral". Having a job getting my brain round this one. A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all? Can that be? If I was the taxman owed £34m I think I might have something to say about this.

 

Sadly, it's one of the benefits of them cheating their way to 2 cup finals in 3 years - their US hosts are happy to foot the bill for such a 'prestigous' team to tour pre-season. Still, we'll see what they think when a bunch of reserve, loan & youth team players pitch up for the first game.

 

This is exactly why they should have been thrown out of the FA Cup in January.

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JustMike

JustMike

Posted
Posted
Radio Solent reported at 7.50 this morning that they are going on a summer tour of the USA. 3 different destinations including San Diego. They said that the trip would be "cost neutral". Having a job getting my brain round this one. A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all? Can that be? If I was the taxman owed £34m I think I might have something to say about this.

 

"A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all....."

 

....and offering players new contract, and still paying storrieteller! Anything else?

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Saint J 77

Saint J 77

Posted
Posted
"A CCC team currently in administration owing over £130m and off touring the States at no cost to them at all....."

 

....and offering players new contract, and still paying storrieteller! Anything else?

 

You forgot "They're gonna get away with it"... cheating Skates!!!

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Channon's Sideburns

Channon's Sideburns

Posted
Posted

At the creditors' meeting at Fratton Park on May 6, the club's administrators outlined a CVA proposal that would offer creditors a minimum of 20p back in the pound, spread over a period of five years.

 

The first year, the money will come direct from player sales.

 

The following years, it will come straight out of the club's net profit.

 

---------------

 

Eh?!? :-)

 

Am I the only one seeing a slight contradiction here????

 

CVA paid from players sales in Year 1???? So what happens if they sell no-one then?

 

Company Net Profit in Year 2 ???? = delusional optimism......

 

I can't believe the skates fall for this sh1t.

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted

A very splendid example of how journalism works.......

 

Headline - Poyet refuses to rule out Pompey job

 

Quote from Poyet, when asked about the Poopey job -

I know absolutely nothing about it.

One of my kids told me of the rumours. If I had talked to Portsmouth I would tell you – and I haven't.

I have a contract at Brighton and that's as far as it goes. It's easy to talk about other clubs and whether you are interested, but for me it is not worth commenting on.

I have had no contact with the club at all and I do not know anything about this link.

 

And wham-bam they have their story linking Poyet to the Poopey job.

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lumuah

lumuah

Posted
Posted
The Skates might be OK from their advanced season ticket sales..... ;)

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/frattonlatest/Pompey-season-ticket-sales-off.6319666.jp

 

Now if my memory serves me correctly, didn't they have to have a CVA agreed before the date they join the football league (3 June?) of they would have another points penalty?

 

The 14 days notice would make it the 10th June to vote on the CVA by the creditors.

 

 

From the article:

 

It is likely the CVA proposal will be sent out to creditors tomorrow morning, ahead of the planned creditors' committee meeting to be held with administrators tomorrow afternoon.

 

After the CVA proposal is sent out, creditors will be given 14 days notice of a meeting of all the club's creditors. At this meeting, creditors will vote on whether to agree fully, agree conditionally or refuse the deal the administrators are offering.

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
Now if my memory serves me correctly, didn't they have to have a CVA agreed before the date they join the football league (3 June?) of they would have another points penalty?

 

The 14 days notice would make it the 10th June to vote on the CVA by the creditors.

 

 

From the article:

 

It is likely the CVA proposal will be sent out to creditors tomorrow morning, ahead of the planned creditors' committee meeting to be held with administrators tomorrow afternoon.

 

After the CVA proposal is sent out, creditors will be given 14 days notice of a meeting of all the club's creditors. At this meeting, creditors will vote on whether to agree fully, agree conditionally or refuse the deal the administrators are offering.

 

We seem to keep getting contradictory messages about the date for Pompey to avoid a FL points deduction.

 

Does anyone have the definitive correct answer to the question, when do they have to come out of administration and/or have a CVA in place to avoid a further deduction?

 

Or is it that actually there is no definitive answer because the league have some discretion over this rather than a hard and fast rule?

 

Could they start the season still in admin with no points deducted?

 

 

K.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
I can't see Pompey escaping a points deduction next season.

 

Surely the last thing the PL want is for Pompey to darken their door anytime soon. . . .

 

The Premier League would have no say in the matter apart from passing on any evidence to the Football League for them to make a judgement. Different governing bodies.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)
Anyone got a spare 5 minutes to go through this?

 

http://www.football-league.co.uk/staticFiles/78/3/0,,10794~888,00.pdf

 

Have they broken this?

 

16.1 All Clubs shall keep their financial records in accordance with the provisions of The

Football Association Rules and the Executive may arrange for an inspection of all such

books.

 

and this?

 

16.2 All Clubs must forward a copy of their audited Accounts and Balance Sheet to the

Executive each year, not later than ten months from the end of the Club’s financial year.

 

They may have sent them but they sure weren't accurate!

Edited by Matthew Le God
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landford.saint

landford.saint

Posted
Posted
Have they broken this?

 

16.1 All Clubs shall keep their financial records in accordance with the provisions of The

Football Association Rules and the Executive may arrange for an inspection of all such

books.

 

and this?

 

16.2 All Clubs must forward a copy of their audited Accounts and Balance Sheet to the

Executive each year, not later than ten months from the end of the Club’s financial year.

 

They may have sent them but they sure weren't accurate!

 

It also states in there that any club who suffers a long list of financial offences whilst in the prem.Lea will get 10 point deduction on entering F/L

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badgerx16

badgerx16

Posted
Posted
12.3.3 and 12.3.4 = 10 point deduction

12.3.3 says it applies if the club went into admin after the end of the EPL season but before the start of the CCC, and that a club cannot suffer 2 deductions for the same 'offence'. The Skates have had their deduction for enetring admin already. :(

The one we are interested in is any further deduction for coming out of admin without an agreed CVA,- how / when is a company ruled as having come out of administration ?

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Graffito

Graffito

Posted
Posted (edited)
12.3.3 says it applies if the club went into admin after the end of the EPL season but before the start of the CCC, and that a club cannot suffer 2 deductions for the same 'offence'. The Skates have had their deduction for enetring admin already. :(

The one we are interested in is any further deduction for coming out of admin without an agreed CVA,- how / when is a company ruled as having come out of administration ?

 

I don't read it that way. It seems to me they can get a 10 point deduction for any of the criteria listed under 12.3.1 e.g.

 

"enter into any arrangement with its creditors or some part of them in

respect of the payment of its debts or part of them as a company

voluntary arrangement under the Insolvency Act 1986 or Scheme of

Arrangement under the Companies Act 1985; "

Edited by Graffito
wrong rule number
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JackFrost

JackFrost

Posted
Posted
The Premier League would have no say in the matter apart from passing on any evidence to the Football League for them to make a judgement. Different governing bodies.

 

Indeed they are but I'd wouldn't mind betting the PL could pull a few strings behind the scenes.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
I don't read it that way.

 

That rule won't apply in this case. It is only for those going into admin between the end of the Prem season and the AGM of the Football League in June.

 

...at any time following the end of the season (as defined in the Rules of

The Premier League) but before it becomes a member of The League, then that

club, upon being accepted as a member of The League in accordance with

Regulations 7.4 and 10.1 shall suffer a deduction of 10 points

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Saint_John

Saint_John

Posted
Posted
We seem to keep getting contradictory messages about the date for Pompey to avoid a FL points deduction.

 

Does anyone have the definitive correct answer to the question, when do they have to come out of administration and/or have a CVA in place to avoid a further deduction?

 

Or is it that actually there is no definitive answer because the league have some discretion over this rather than a hard and fast rule?

 

Could they start the season still in admin with no points deducted?

 

 

K.

 

If this article in the Daily Hate about Darlington from last season is correct they have until the first match of the season to get the Golden Share and escaped further penalty points (for NO cva).

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1204953/Colin-Todds-Darlington-avoid-points-deduction-coming-administration.html?ITO=1490

 

So I would assume end of June/start of July, then the 28 day "Cooling off" period for legal challenges in order to get the Golden Share in early August.

 

 

Note also that Luton were given 10 additional points by The FA for paying agents via their holding company, and not the FL, so you should be looking in their rule book for things like ; paying unlicenced agents; having a Shadow Director etc. etc. etc. etc.

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Wes Tender

Wes Tender

Posted
Posted
Where did you get the impression that everyone was paid in full????

 

I downloaded the final Report of the joint administrators, dated 22nd February, 2010, prior to the liquidation of Southampton Leisure Holding a couple months ago. This reports that "the joint administrators completed the sale of the main assets of the Company, including its shareholding in Southampton Football Club Limited...Marchwood Training ground...Jackson's farm development land."

 

It goes on to state [i]"All of these assets were subject to security and details of the sale are subject to confidentiality. The joint administrators confirm that the value of the assets sold was significantly less than the amounts outstanding to the secured creditors and accordingly, no monies are available from the sale of these assets for the benefit of unsecured creditors. As part of the transaction, the secured creditors agreed full and final settlements...." [/i]

 

Let's not start any ridiculous urban myths, shall we....?

 

As the details of the sale are subject to confidentiality, then there is no evidence either way as to whether the unsecured creditors were paid or not. I must confess that I had the impression that those unsecured creditors, local suppliers of goods and services to the club were paid. I don't know what gave me that impression, but perhaps somebody who posts on here who falls into that category can confirm whether their company was paid after the takeover.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
We seem to keep getting contradictory messages about the date for Pompey to avoid a FL points deduction.

 

Does anyone have the definitive correct answer to the question, when do they have to come out of administration and/or have a CVA in place to avoid a further deduction?

 

Or is it that actually there is no definitive answer because the league have some discretion over this rather than a hard and fast rule?

 

Could they start the season still in admin with no points deducted?

 

 

K.

 

Yes, as far as I'm aware.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
Have they broken this?

 

16.1 All Clubs shall keep their financial records in accordance with the provisions of The

Football Association Rules and the Executive may arrange for an inspection of all such

books.

 

and this?

 

16.2 All Clubs must forward a copy of their audited Accounts and Balance Sheet to the

Executive each year, not later than ten months from the end of the Club’s financial year.

 

They may have sent them but they sure weren't accurate!

 

I thought they failed to submit them, in fact I'm pretty sure this was the case. Hence, it is one of the main reasons they failed to apply for a European licence, and why they won't get one now, amongst other things

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
As the details of the sale are subject to confidentiality, then there is no evidence either way as to whether the unsecured creditors were paid or not. I must confess that I had the impression that those unsecured creditors, local suppliers of goods and services to the club were paid. I don't know what gave me that impression, but perhaps somebody who posts on here who falls into that category can confirm whether their company was paid after the takeover.[/QUOTE]

 

One thing that may support this, is the lack of knowledge, about companys in and around Southampton, who didn't get paid. Compare that with the Poopey situation!

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Doctoroncall

Doctoroncall

Posted
Posted
As the details of the sale are subject to confidentiality, then there is no evidence either way as to whether the unsecured creditors were paid or not. I must confess that I had the impression that those unsecured creditors, local suppliers of goods and services to the club were paid. I don't know what gave me that impression, but perhaps somebody who posts on here who falls into that category can confirm whether their company was paid after the takeover.

 

 

Much depends on what company the contract was with under SLH. My brother had and still has one with the football club and was owed money but obviously didn't get paid as there wasn't any money coming into the club. Once the club was sold he got paid. If he had the agreement with SLH or another subsidiary that got liquidated then who knows what would have happened.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
Much depends on what company the contract was with under SLH. My brother had and still has one with the football club and was owed money but obviously didn't get paid as there wasn't any money coming into the club. Once the club was sold he got paid. If he had the agreement with SLH or another subsidiary that got liquidated then who knows what would have happened.

 

According to the Football League, Southampton FC was (to all intents and purposes) 'Southampton Leisure Holdings" so there would (in theory) be no creditors of SLH in isolation.....unless the Football League were wrong all along of course.....

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