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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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NickG

NickG

Posted
Posted
After Andronikou addressed the creditors last week I sent an email to Greg Clarke at the Football League voicing my concerns.

 

 

I just received a reply

 

 

 

 

Roll on June

 

football fans across the country should voice their concerns about the integrity of the game if cheats are allowed to prosper unpunished

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bridge too far

bridge too far

Posted
Posted
Skates, Burnley and Hull will all get the £48m over 4 years, split £16m, £16m, £8m and £8m - starting in August 2010.

 

Well I'm completely confused now! This is an extract from a Guardian article:

 

"The payments – which rise from £16m a year over two years – will start from next season"

 

I took that to mean that clubs relegated AT THE END OF NEXT SEASON would qualify for the new deal, not clubs relegated at the end of this season :confused:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/10/football-league-agree-parachute-payments

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Sevvy

Sevvy

Posted
Posted
After Andronikou addressed the creditors last week I sent an email to Greg Clarke at the Football League voicing my concerns.

 

 

I just received a reply

 

 

 

 

Roll on June

 

Just out of curiosity what did you ask them

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Wibble

Wibble

Posted
Posted
Just out of curiosity what did you ask them

 

Here's a copy of what I sent

 

Dear Mr Clarke,

 

 

As an honest football fan, recent developements at Portsmouth Football Club have appalled me.

 

Lord Mawhinney, on his stepping down as chairman of The Football league, called for reforms to ensure that the competion remained "morally and financially sustainable"

 

The Administrator at Portsmouth Football Club yesterday addressed the creditors and announced his plans in order to get a CVA approved. I was left genuinely gobsmacked by his actions and plans.

 

If it is not bad enough that the financial mismanagement which resulted in PFC gaining an advantage in being able to "buy" and loan players that their rivals could not afford then the fact that they can now liquidate the guilty company and restart a new company in 9 months time in it's place with it's league position and commitments just handed over according to Mr Andronikou, the Administrator, without any punishments whatsoever.

 

The previous mismanagements of PFC have been the headache of The Premier League but very soon they will become the problems of The Football League, I hope for the sake of integrity in football that PFC do not escape punishment and do not start the new season on 0 points in The Championship as this will be morally wrong. It is unfair that a club can run up £138 million in debts and then just wipe the slate clean and start up again as if nothing happened. Point deductions for a lot less have occured in the past and for the sake of the other members of the football league it is only fair that PFC are punished.

 

Where is the deterrent for the other clubs spending beyond their means, where is the fairness for those that live within their means?

 

The message has to be clear, Lord Mawhinney was correct and an unpunished Portsmouth taints the football league.

 

 

Yours hoping that justice prevails

 

 

I could have gone on about their cheating etc but it was nothing new and I was acting on anger at Andronikou announcing the liquidating of one PFC in 9 months and restarting another PFC and just handing league positions etc over.

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Alanh

Alanh

Posted
Posted
I still think the FL should be docking points off them this season otherwise we should have a case to say we shouldnt have had our -10 this season which would put us in the play-off spots. This would create a huge legal battle and could really hurt the FL.

 

Why should it be 1 rule for dropping out of the prem and a different rule for everyone else?

 

So have the FL suggested how they aim to deal with this at all or are we still guessing at what will happen?

 

The FL and the PL have different rules related to clubs going into admin. In the PL the -9 is applied when the admin happens regardless of when that is. In the Fl -10 is applied to the current season unless it happens after a certain date, in which case it applies the following season. We went into admin after the cut off date last season so got our -10 this year.

 

The FL haven't said anything yet because PFC aren't under their juristiction yet. Just wait until the start of the new season and what might happen when they liquidate the existing club.

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bridge too far

bridge too far

Posted
Posted
The FL and the PL have different rules related to clubs going into admin. In the PL the -9 is applied when the admin happens regardless of when that is. In the Fl -10 is applied to the current season unless it happens after a certain date, in which case it applies the following season. We went into admin after the cut off date last season so got our -10 this year.

 

The FL haven't said anything yet because PFC aren't under their juristiction yet. Just wait until the start of the new season and what might happen when they liquidate the existing club.

 

At what point do they, and other relegated clubs, become part of the CCC and thereby the FL? Now that the season has finished or at the start of next season?

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Red and White Army

Red and White Army

Posted
Posted
At what point do they, and other relegated clubs, become part of the CCC and thereby the FL? Now that the season has finished or at the start of next season?

 

From the horses mouth

 

We are certainly aware of the issues surrounding Portsmouth FC at this time and we will be considering their position once the club are officially a Football League member after June’s AGM.
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bridge too far

bridge too far

Posted
Posted

From the horses mouth

 

 

Quote:

We are certainly aware of the issues surrounding Portsmouth FC at this time and we will be considering their position once the club are officially a Football League member after June’s AGM.

 

I wonder if this means they could vote to exclude PFC?

 

Yours, ever in hope :)

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Danny

Danny

Posted
Posted
Well I'm completely confused now! This is an extract from a Guardian article:

 

"The payments – which rise from £16m a year over two years – will start from next season"

 

I took that to mean that clubs relegated AT THE END OF NEXT SEASON would qualify for the new deal, not clubs relegated at the end of this season :confused:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/may/10/football-league-agree-parachute-payments

 

Pompey definitely benefit from it:

 

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/football/8157251.Football_League_accepts_bigger_parachute_payments/

 

I asked the Football League as it didn't think it was all that clear and they confirmed it.

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Saint_John

Saint_John

Posted
Posted
What date is junes AGM so i can do a count down

 

It is usually in early June, i.e. in 2007 it was the 8th in the Algarve.

http://www.football-league.co.uk/latestnews/20070608/league-chairman-get-the-outside-view_2245681_1034302

 

In 2004, when they introduced the Fit & Proper test it was the 11th in Chester

http://www.football-league.co.uk/latestnews/20040611/breaking-news_2245681_532014

 

If this Yeovil web site is to be believed one item on the Agenda for this June is Club Ownership

http://www.ciderspace.co.uk/ASP/features/blog.asp?BlogId=247

 

I like the following quote

"... this is the first big test of new Chairman Greg Clarke to continue Mawhinney's drive towards ensuring that its member clubs are better protected against crooks ......"

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saintjay77

saintjay77

Posted
Posted
The FL and the PL have different rules related to clubs going into admin. In the PL the -9 is applied when the admin happens regardless of when that is. In the Fl -10 is applied to the current season unless it happens after a certain date, in which case it applies the following season. We went into admin after the cut off date last season so got our -10 this year.

 

The FL haven't said anything yet because PFC aren't under their juristiction yet. Just wait until the start of the new season and what might happen when they liquidate the existing club.

 

But surley that cut of date will be an important factor in there decission. Was it after the cut off date we missed? If so then it should be fairly simple to impose a penalty. If it is and they dont impose a penalty would NC open up a legal battle to have our -10 removed and some kind of compensation for not being involved in the play offs?

 

If it was before the cut of date then the FL have an easy job in only giving a penalty if Poopy fail to agree a CVA or if further financial irregularitys are found or something.

 

What was the cut off date this year in the FL and did poopy go into admin before it or after it?

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Wibble

Wibble

Posted
Posted

Last years Football league AGM was on the 12th June and ironically approved new tax regulations

 

http://www.football-league.co.uk/footballleaguenews/20090612/clubs-approve-new-tax-regulations_2246528_1691419

 

Lord Mawhinney said: "This new regime will provide us with an early warning system where clubs are facing financial problems. It should also help prevent HMRC debt reaching levels that otherwise could hinder the potential rescue of the club through a CVA.
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slickmick

slickmick

Posted
Posted
From the horses mouth

 

 

Quote:

We are certainly aware of the issues surrounding Portsmouth FC at this time and we will be considering their position once the club are officially a Football League member after June’s AGM.

 

I wonder if this means they could vote to exclude PFC?

 

Yours, ever in hope :)

 

 

Should it not say If they become an official league member.

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Faz

Faz

Posted
Posted

If you were a Creditor, would you be happy with 20p in the £, whilst they allow themselves a £10m salary budget?

 

If they only had a £5m budget, thats another £20m to the creditors, getting cloer to 40p in the £.

 

Lets hope the creditors committee has teeth.

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted
If you were a Creditor, would you be happy with 20p in the £, whilst they allow themselves a £10m salary budget?

 

If they only had a £5m budget, thats another £20m to the creditors, getting cloer to 40p in the £.

 

Lets hope the creditors committee has teeth.

Pompey fans are part of the commitee.

My brother was a creditor when Bournemouth went into admin and got nothign back as the majority were Cherrie fans and so wouldnt do anything that would hurt the club.

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krissyboy31

krissyboy31

Posted
Posted
Pompey fans are part of the commitee.

My brother was a creditor when Bournemouth went into admin and got nothign back as the majority were Cherrie fans and so wouldnt do anything that would hurt the club.

 

Depends whether they can afford to bin 80% of what their owed. For some of the smaller creditors, could be the difference between staying in business and going under.

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Gorgiesaint

Gorgiesaint

Posted
Posted
Pompey fans are part of the commitee.

My brother was a creditor when Bournemouth went into admin and got nothign back as the majority were Cherrie fans and so wouldnt do anything that would hurt the club.

 

The creditors commitee does have representitives from a couple of local creditors - but they are being represented by insolvency experts so that would indicate they are going to fight for what they can get & not just roll over because its Pompey.

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Deano6

Deano6

Posted
Posted
But surley that cut of date will be an important factor in there decission. Was it after the cut off date we missed? If so then it should be fairly simple to impose a penalty. If it is and they dont impose a penalty would NC open up a legal battle to have our -10 removed and some kind of compensation for not being involved in the play offs?

 

If it was before the cut of date then the FL have an easy job in only giving a penalty if Poopy fail to agree a CVA or if further financial irregularitys are found or something.

 

What was the cut off date this year in the FL and did poopy go into admin before it or after it?

 

Are you stupid? The guy you quoted clearly stated that the Premier League doesn't have a cut-off date. Pompey are in the Premier League. The Football League have nothing to do with it.

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Rusty

Rusty

Posted
Posted
If you had a peek on their forums, you would see several for sale 2nd hand;) loyal fans, you bet!

They're not fans. Just ****s with tickets.

 

Sadly happens at every major final, usually it's someone who manages to get their hands on one of the (many, don't get me started) neutral allocations and think they can charge £300 a pop. ****s.

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FloridaMarlin

FloridaMarlin

Posted
Posted
They're not fans. Just ****s with tickets.

 

Sadly happens at every major final, usually it's someone who manages to get their hands on one of the (many, don't get me started) neutral allocations and think they can charge £300 a pop. ****s.

 

Anybody uhappy at the price they pay for a ticket can and should complain to the FA, who can trace the ticket back to the original source.

 

I think Jim Smith is among those banned from having cup final tickets for allowing tickets they had been rightfully allocated to fall into the black market.

 

Problem is, if you buy a ticket from a tout or on the black market and complain you paid over the odds for it, the FA are not likely to show you too much sympathy as you would be considered part of the problem.

 

The FA do have a fairly efficient ticket compliance unit, and are ready and willing to impose penalties.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
Another piece from Matt Slater on the BBC this morning...

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2010/05/its_a_fudge_not_a_fairytale.html

 

An interesting insite to the creditors meeting.

 

I still fail to see how, (when the Points Deductions rules were established to deliberately punish clubs that cheated by spending more than they earnt) a club can have a business plan that calls for it to be Liquidated during a season can believe that they will NOT get any penalties.

 

There are precedents for clubs being thrown out the League when they are Liquidated so how can the CHEATS be an exception?

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Rusty

Rusty

Posted
Posted

It's par for the course with administration though? The previous company is liquidated and replaced with a new one?

 

Hence Portsmouth Football Club Ltd becoming Portsmouth City Football Club Ltd back in '98.

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saintjay77

saintjay77

Posted
Posted (edited)
Are you stupid? The guy you quoted clearly stated that the Premier League doesn't have a cut-off date. Pompey are in the Premier League. The Football League have nothing to do with it.

 

But its the football league who have to make a decission and as there is no precident on clubs going into admin from the prem coming down then the only guide lines they have and can possibly use are the ones they use for clubs in the FL.

 

The prem have washed there hands of the matter so its they that have nothing to do with it. Or are you too stupid to notice that the problem is now the FL's? ;) EDIT: Forgot the winky smily emote thingy..... Honest ;)

 

So the Cut off date could be important as the FL could use it as a guide when deciding Poopy's fate. If they dont and treat Poopy differently just because they have come out of the prem then all the other clubs in the FL could have rights to complain at Prem clubs recieving special treatment.

 

We got relegated from 1 league to another and as we missed the cut off date we recieved points the following season. What have Poopy done differently and why should they not be treated the same as any other club in the FL?

Edited by saintjay77
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Kingsland Codger

Kingsland Codger

Posted
Posted

When a club has been relegated from the PL to the CCC but then bounces straight back up to the PL, the parachute payments go to the FL rather than the club as the club is no longer in the FL.

 

Were Portsmouth to be kicked out of the FL then what would happen to the parachute payments? Presumably they (the parachute payments) would remain within the FL and be divided up amongst the clubs as they have been in the past (Birmingham) and will be soon (Newcastle). A powerful incentive for the clubs within the FL to vote Portsmouth out.

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rallyboy

rallyboy

Posted
Posted

I've been reading a legal document this morning and it concerned director's responsibilities, it just made me think that there must be dozens of offences committed in this case.

There's no way they can all get away with it, especially as AA's plan involves liquidation and a full investigation 9mths down the line.

He will have departed the scene by then and will hope it all goes away, but it won't.

 

Be patient, it might take points penalties over the next few seasons to sort this one, they will regard the passage of time as an excuse for the criminal activity.

 

'But it's not our fault' the new owner will squeal, no, but you bought the club with all of these legal problems hanging over it, and that's why it was so cheap, so it is your problem.

 

 

If they look at every offence there will be penalties aplenty!

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Deano6

Deano6

Posted
Posted
But its the football league who have to make a decission and as there is no precident on clubs going into admin from the prem coming down then the only guide lines they have and can possibly use are the ones they use for clubs in the FL.

 

The prem have washed there hands of the matter so its they that have nothing to do with it. Or are you too stupid to notice that the problem is now the FL's? ;) EDIT: Forgot the winky smily emote thingy..... Honest ;)

 

So the Cut off date could be important as the FL could use it as a guide when deciding Poopy's fate. If they dont and treat Poopy differently just because they have come out of the prem then all the other clubs in the FL could have rights to complain at Prem clubs recieving special treatment.

 

We got relegated from 1 league to another and as we missed the cut off date we recieved points the following season. What have Poopy done differently and why should they not be treated the same as any other club in the FL?

 

The Premier League have already administered the penalty for this season. Pompey got 9 points knocked off. Any action the Football League takes will be based on next season, when Pompey are in it, not this one.

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fromdayone

fromdayone

Posted
Posted
The Premier League have already administered the penalty for this season. Pompey got 9 points knocked off. Any action the Football League takes will be based on next season, when Pompey are in it, not this one.

 

That cant be right, the 9 points was for entering administration not all the other rules they have broken;

 

using unlicensed agents, Azougy acting as shadow director, financial irregularities of Storrie Mandaric and Redknapp for tax evasion! (to be proven).

 

Just because you commit a crime in England doesnt mean you get away with it by moving to Scotland.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
The Premier League have already administered the penalty for this season. Pompey got 9 points knocked off. Any action the Football League takes will be based on next season, when Pompey are in it, not this one.

 

I think you may find you are very wrong on this point. I think the FL will hit them hard, just a gut feeling. Mind you, I still think they will soon cease to be, that also is a gut feeling.

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treggs23

treggs23

Posted
Posted
That cant be right, the 9 points was for entering administration not all the other rules they have broken;

 

using unlicensed agents, Azougy acting as shadow director, financial irregularities of Storrie Mandaric and Redknapp for tax evasion! (to be proven).

 

Just because you commit a crime in England doesnt mean you get away with it by moving to Scotland.

 

actually if you don't pay your council tax and then move to Scotland, they'll let you off

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angelman

angelman

Posted
Posted

Do people really expect the club to be bought even if there is a CVA? Is Chainrai going to finance it when there is no buyer on the horizon? I sincerely hope that he looses alot of money in this. I do feel sorry for the fans (well maybe only just a little bit) who have had their club used as some part of vendetta.

 

I personally would probably buy Reading for less. At least they have a squad, a modern ground that holds more than FP and that is owned by them rather than some money lender, a similar population, in the right half of the country, they are up for sale and have been for a while, no potential on the horizon for further points deduction, no bad name like Poopey, the list goes on and on. As do the number of more attractive clubs.

 

Why, in this day and age of supposed austerity, would anyone buy Poopey for footballing reasons?

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Viking Warrior

Viking Warrior

Posted
Posted

I think EastneyPFC has accepted the reality of whats happened at Skatesville

 

I hope that the people responsible for wrecking PFC are punished - I doubt they will be - it saddens me to hear people saying we should be thrown out of the league/cup etc - the fans and the team have done nothing wrong - one group has supported laudibly and the other have plyed their profession with success in one competition and at least stayed proud in the other. Neither of these groups deserve punishing - it is arguably the games administrators and our countless shady owners who should be brought to book - one for uuterly failing in it's duty of care of a member of it's organisation and the others for anything from possible fraud to downright malpractice. The Football Association and the EPL need to seriously review their roles in governance of clubs and the game - otherwise the disaster that has been our clubs demise will happen again at other clubs that are part of your life and dear to you.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
I think EastneyPFC has accepted the reality of whats happened at Skatesville

 

I hope that the people responsible for wrecking PFC are punished - I doubt they will be - it saddens me to hear people saying we should be thrown out of the league/cup etc - the fans and the team have done nothing wrong - one group has supported laudibly and the other have plyed their profession with success in one competition and at least stayed proud in the other. Neither of these groups deserve punishing - it is arguably the games administrators and our countless shady owners who should be brought to book - one for uuterly failing in it's duty of care of a member of it's organisation and the others for anything from possible fraud to downright malpractice. The Football Association and the EPL need to seriously review their roles in governance of clubs and the game - otherwise the disaster that has been our clubs demise will happen again at other clubs that are part of your life and dear to you.

 

 

PMSL

 

Many moons ago myself and others commented on the media concerns on Football's finances and oversight (GM Pilchards and others). Loads of Journos covered the topic. Many on here joined in the debates.

 

We as fans noticed that things were wrong and at least discussed it.

 

And yet it takes this mess before ANY of the skates wake up - of course

 

BECAUSE THEY WERE GIVING EVERYONE ELSE THE FINGER AND SAYING WHY CHANGE WE ARE ALRIGHT!

 

Which is why we don't give a damn about them and hope they continue to suffer.

 

It is only when something has happened to THEM to upset THEIR little applecart that they cry something must be done.

 

Where were you when Journos tried to get this looked into?

Where were you when the GOVERNMENT asked the PL to look into this stuff

 

You were watching half the England Team each week in your own made up washed out dream world BELIEVING them to be "Your Team".

 

No wonder the Aussies call Brits Whingeing Poms

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Frank's cousin

Frank's cousin

Posted
Posted

Whilst I dont really want any club to suffer - afterall it is ultimately true that fans do not ahve a huge influence on these things, you can ONLY blame the authorities and your management if you accept that your success was only possible BECAUSE of this mismanagement - this is not envy or jealousy, but the fact remains that because the authorities did not intervene, the clubs owners and management spent like loons to achieve success - had they spent within their means its arguable whether they would have stayed up several seasons ago... nothing to do with 'imature myclubs this and yours is that, but simple facts that increased resources tends to drive your success - now many pompey fans respond with the counter argument at nearly ALL clubs in the prem do this, which is true (and should be outlawed), but two things, in most cases the debts are serviceable and for those that it is not, they will eventually be in the same situation as pompey, and 2) just becauses everyone else is at it does not make it right....

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krissyboy31

krissyboy31

Posted
Posted
The Premier League have already administered the penalty for this season. Pompey got 9 points knocked off. Any action the Football League takes will be based on next season, when Pompey are in it, not this one.

 

They have to meet every FL criteria by a certain date to avoid a points deduction or possible worse sanctions (which they've no chance of doing). They will also be hit by a multitude of sanctions if, as likely, certain members of their ownership/management (past or present) are found guilty of financial wrong-doings.

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bridge too far

bridge too far

Posted
Posted
They have to meet every FL criteria by a certain date to avoid a points deduction or possible worse sanctions (which they've no chance of doing). They will also be hit by a multitude of sanctions if, as likely, certain members of their ownership/management (past or present) are found guilty of financial wrong-doings.

 

This is what happened to Luton. Docked 30 points for financial irregularities (caused by its previous owners). A precedent surely?

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stevegrant

stevegrant

Posted
Posted
This is what happened to Luton. Docked 30 points for financial irregularities (caused by its previous owners). A precedent surely?

They were only docked 10 points for financial irregularities (payments to agents made through a third party rather than through the football club), the other 20 were for failing to agree a CVA in the club's third period of administration.

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anothersaintinsouthsea

anothersaintinsouthsea

Posted
Posted
They were only docked 10 points for financial irregularities (payments to agents made through a third party rather than through the football club), the other 20 were for failing to agree a CVA in the club's third period of administration.

 

Even then the financial irregularities were fairly low-rent - IIRC the 3rd party was a holding company of the football club and it wasn't suggested that there was anything wrong outside of football rules. Expect Pompey to get more than that if tax dodging is revealed.

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Saint_Ash

Saint_Ash

Posted
Posted
just accept it, they have gotten totally away with it.

 

Back where they belong but after a few years in prem, two cup finals and no penalty.

 

Oh is, it all over then, has the new season started and they're on 0 points, have they got a CVA and a new owner and everything is ok? Blimey, I must have been asleep for a few months!

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