Pompey Takeover Saga

[Foxstone]

I think HMRC 'accepted' that the administration was valid.

 

I also think that HMRC will be represented at the Creditors' meeting - but I can't remember when it is that has to be held by.

 

Given how hard HMRC have come down on little clubs that owe peanuts, I can't believe they'll let this one slip through the net.

 

I still think they'll come out all guns blazing sooner or later.

 

Agree.

£20 million ( or so) is certainly worth some time and effort to go after !

[Danbert]

I'm just glad that Peter Storrie learnt from our experience, as this article showed:

 

We will stay debt-free pledges Storrie

 

Published Date: 17 May 2005

 

POMPEY have vowed not to follow Saints into the type of financial meltdown reaped by relegation.

Blues chief executive Peter Storrie said: 'If you chase dreams and let finances get out of control, you go out of business.

'But if you're clever, that doesn't happen. It all boils down to not getting into debt. You can't spend more than the income coming in. That's why we're trying to make prudent decisions.

'Wages and transfer fees are where the money goes. That's the thing you can't let spiral. The wage bill has to be sensible in relation to the income.

'We're getting the balance right. We brought in too many players in the past, but now were remedying that'

 

Clever c***, wasn't he?

 

Yeah thanks for that. What a total and utter w@nker.

[bridge too far]

On the basis of the SofA !

 

Yes I know - that's the bummer

 

There MUST be some recourse available to them to revisit the situation, given that Vantis provided inaccurate information (if indeed it was inaccurate, rather accurate but uniformed of the current amount that has grown remarkably since administration).

 

GM highlighted the process AA should have followed to register all these debts that have miraculously appeared since administration - maybe there's some way they can be brought to book over failure to register them?

 

I'm sure every move is being watched very carefully. I wouldn't expect HMRC to go to the press every day and comment on every 'statement' issued by AA. I'm hoping they're just quietly biding their time, drumming their fingers and waiting to pounce.

[suewhistle]

I'm just glad that Peter Storrie learnt from our experience, as this article showed:

We will stay debt-free pledges Storrie

 

Thanks GM, that had me cackling out loud at my desk.

 

Who does he think he's kidding. Apart from himself, that is.. easily done!

[Guided Missile]

GM highlighted the process AA should have followed to register all these debts that have miraculously appeared since administration - maybe there's some way they can be brought to book over failure to register them?

Let's get one thing straight. After the winding up order was published in the London Gazette, a court order was required to transfer assets from the club. It was not possible to change the status of members, ie shareholders, or creditors. Any such activity will be ruled invalid, ie unsecured. Even then, the debts have to be shown to be valid to the court, ie have a loan instrument that was agreed by Portsmouth City Football Club and the lender. I think that the court will quickly whittle down the supposed debts that the administrator is claiming.

 

What people also forget is that two can play at this game and HMRC have not even started with penalties and interest on the money they are owed. Since April 1st of this year, they can impose penalties of up to 100% of the VAT owed and if the company can't pay, ie is insolvent they can force the directors to pony up.

 

The fun will continue for a while and it continues to look more and more like that scene in "Bridge Over the River Kwai", when the train crashes into the river.

 

For those that are interested, the Bridge Over the River Kwai, Thaksin Shinawatra and the whores from Horton Heath, are all from Thailand...

 

...the "All You Can Eat" Sunday buffet at Kuti's Royal Thai Restaurant is the only good thing to come from there, TBH...

Edited 20 April, 2010 by Guided Missile

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I'm just glad that Peter Storrie learnt from our experience, as this article showed:

 

We will stay debt-free pledges Storrie

 

Published Date: 17 May 2005

 

POMPEY have vowed not to follow Saints into the type of financial meltdown reaped by relegation.

Blues chief executive Peter Storrie said: 'If you chase dreams and let finances get out of control, you go out of business.

'But if you're clever, that doesn't happen. It all boils down to not getting into debt. You can't spend more than the income coming in. That's why we're trying to make prudent decisions.

'Wages and transfer fees are where the money goes. That's the thing you can't let spiral. The wage bill has to be sensible in relation to the income.

'We're getting the balance right. We brought in too many players in the past, but now were remedying that'

 

Clever c***, wasn't he?

 

Thanks for this, I have read this four times now and can't believe the man, well I can really. He's got more front than Brighton.

 

To think that he was obviously contradicting those very words with his actions at the same time.

 

And the phew sang his name. Not in the same revered tones which we sang RL'eau's I admit. But they sang it.

 

*EDIT* He's certainly no ordinary quoit.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

There's a new television deal with the Far East that will bring in bundles of cash. I can't remember the amount but it is shekels.

 

That's better!

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Yes, hence why I said 'yes' to nickh, when he asked if HMRC can have them back to court. Do not worrym HMRC will be wanting Poopy, dead, dressed, and cooked to perfection.

 

Like all dead fish, can they take the head off so the eyes don't see me as I tuck in?

[Wes Tender]

Let's get one thing straight. After the winding up order was published in the London Gazette, a court order was required to transfer assets from the club. It was not possible to change the status of members, ie shareholders, or creditors. Any such activity will be ruled invalid, ie unsecured. Even then, the debts have to be shown to be valid to the court, ie have a loan instrument that was agreed by Portsmouth City Football Club and the lender. I think that the court will quickly whittle down the supposed debts that the administrator is claiming.

 

What people also forget is that two can play at this game and HMRC have not even started with penalties and interest on the money they are owed. Since April 1st of this year, they can impose penalties of up to 100% of the VAT owed and if the company can't pay, ie is insolvent they can force the directors to pony up.

 

The fun will continue for a while and it continues to look more and more like that scene in "Bridge Over the River Kwai", when the train crashes into the river.

 

For those that are interested, the Bridge Over the River Kwai, Thaksin Shinawatra and the whores from Horton Heath, are all from Thailand...

 

...the "All You Can Eat" Sunday buffet at Kuti's Royal Thai Restaurant is the only good thing to come from there, TBH...

 

HeHe, I saw that edit that took out Chainrai's name as him being from Thailand.

 

Personally, I don't rate the Kuti's restaurant either, neither the one at the Town Quay pier, or the one near Wickham.

 

But thanks indeed for all your research into those other dodgy matters involving the Skates. Much appreciated and good entertainment.

[Thedelldays]

I'm just glad that Peter Storrie learnt from our experience, as this article showed:

 

We will stay debt-free pledges Storrie

 

Published Date: 17 May 2005

 

POMPEY have vowed not to follow Saints into the type of financial meltdown reaped by relegation.

Blues chief executive Peter Storrie said: 'If you chase dreams and let finances get out of control, you go out of business.

'But if you're clever, that doesn't happen. It all boils down to not getting into debt. You can't spend more than the income coming in. That's why we're trying to make prudent decisions.

'Wages and transfer fees are where the money goes. That's the thing you can't let spiral. The wage bill has to be sensible in relation to the income.

'We're getting the balance right. We brought in too many players in the past, but now were remedying that'

 

Clever c***, wasn't he?

 

 

haha...what a loon

[buctootim]

Accountant Nick O'Reilly of Vantis, who had prepared the financial statement that Pompey had to submit to the High Court in February, said Pompey's business methods had gone "against all good governance". "I came away not knowing who controlled what," said O'Reilly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8628604.stm

[yoda]

Pompey now owe £119 Million.... link

How can this be?

Not to mention £119 000 000 / 16 523 = £7,202.082 per person who attended the last match including away fans.

 

"So, for that reason, it is not unexpected, although, of course, the figures are vastly different from what has been reported. The size of the debt involved won't scare off potential buyers, far from it."

 

If that's the case why don't you call it a cool 200 million debt and they'll be breaking down your door...

[PompeyInReading]

I'm glad that PIR finds playing against 1st Division Teams such a thrill. With any luck he can play in that division in a couple of years time- or if he's really lucky he may be playing in the Blue Square. Hey its still the premiership!!

 

I will love watching Pompey were ever they play, as I am sure you all would Saints.

 

Of course, it was good beating Saints. You would think the same. I dont think Pompey are that great that I cant celebrate a win over a league one side. Saints are a good side and I reckon you will be up at a canter next season. I reckon it was a great win for Pompey. At least you cant call me deluded.

 

As for you all lauging at me being pleased about getting to the Cup final - well yeh, Ive watched Pompey for 35 years and weve only done it twice in that time. You would have to be mental not to think that was great.

 

I am not being smug, just acknowledging that its nothing short of miraculous (sp?) for Pompey to get to the FA Cup final twice in 3 years. I dont hink Pompey are so brilliant that I shouldnt be pleased with that.

 

And for all you saying we are going into oblivion, all the more reason to enjoy this short time in the sun.

 

I thank you all for helping in outing these lying scum that are in our club at the moment. The storrie post reminds me just how much we have been done over. Make no mistake, the Pompey fans have been well and truly done over by this lot.

 

So, yeh, I will look back on the relative glory (by Pompey standards) and be thankful, because after all, it is a football club that I support and footballing wise I have had it pretty good for 7 years.

 

Bring on the dross, Que sara, sara. I am sure you would all be saying the same thing if it were Saints. After all, the one thing that unites us is that we are real football fans and just love the club we were born to. We didnt choose our team unlike the Man ures etc. We have no choice but to take the rough with the smooth.

 

For all you that think we have cheated. Do you really think that the majority of Pompey fans would have wanted to have cheated? Of course not, we really beleived (or should I say, wanted to believe) that the money was there. We were told so :smt105

 

When Saints were in trouble last year I wished you all luck as I am proud to have Saints as a rival. Saints are a club befittiing of being our rivals.

 

Sorry to go on but I only get 3 posts a day. Hope that goes some way to explaining my posts anyway. I certainly dont mean to be smug.

 

Good luck to you all and I reckon that missing out on the playoffs this year will most likely be a belssing is disguise as your romp it next year and that will be more fun.

[Um Bongo]

I hate you too.

[doubleonothing]

I hate you too.

 

After reading that PIR post, that made me laugh.

 

OOO

[PompeyInReading]

I hate you too.

 

you too.

[Matthew Le God]

A more detailed breakdown of the debt from the 70 page document AA has made.

 

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/04/20/exclusive-extracts-portsmouth’s-debts-laid-bare-in-administrators-bombshell-report-210401/

[Red and White Army]

F*** me. What a disaster Poopey are.

 

If "football debt" is classified as unpaid transfer fee's, unpaid salaries/bonuses and unpaid agents fees then this is 21.2 million, which needs to be stumped up for them to continue playing.

 

91 million of unsecured debts, and HMRC owed 17 million. Secured debt of 14 million.

 

So, if football debts are repaid in full then the unsecured debt would drop to 70 million, and HMRC's 17.1 million is 24.4% of the unsecured debt total which would mean they can not block the CVA.... quite handy.....

 

With AA's past track record of inflating debt in precisely this sort of scenario I can't imagine HMRC are going to be particularly happy with this 24.4% figure.

 

[Saint in Paradise]

I really hope that I am wrong ( again like usual ) but somehow I have a feeling that HMRC are NOT

as up for this fight as some on here think.

 

I feel that they only seem to take a hardline against much easier targets, when it comes to the crunch

against companies which are more in the Public eye they just back off.

[Gingeletiss]

I really hope that I am wrong ( again like usual ) but somehow I have a feeling that HMRC are NOT

as up for this fight as some on here think.

 

I feel that they only seem to take a hardline against much easier targets, when it comes to the crunch

against companies which are more in the Public eye they just back off.

 

Lester Piggott!......he was no easy target.

 

1987: Lester Piggott jailed for three years

Former champion jockey, Lester Piggott, has been sentenced to three years imprsionment after being found guilty of an alleged tax fraud of over £3m.

 

The 51-year-old remained stony-faced as he was sentenced by Mr Justice Farquharson at Ipswich Crown Court.

But his wife, Susan, collapsed in tears as he was taken to Norwich prison.

Piggott was jailed after failing to declare income to the Inland Revenue of £3.25m.

[Matthew Le God]

So, if football debts are repaid in full then the unsecured debt would drop to 70 million, and HMRC's 17.1 million is 24.4% of the unsecured debt total which would mean they can not block the CVA.... quite handy.....

 

Quite possible one or more of the other creditors may block the CVA. Only 0.6%+ needed according to your calculations. Even if they don't, HMRC won't let this drop and will likely challenge it given AA's reported history of playing with the figures.

[StuRomseySaint]

Quite possible one or more of the other creditors may block the CVA. Only 0.6%+ needed according to your calculations. Even if they don't, HMRC won't let this drop and will likely challenge it given AA's reported history of playing with the figures.

 

And to be honest... the FL will impose a points deduction on them anyway, with any hope.

[Red and White Army]

Quite possible one or more of the other creditors may block the CVA. Only 0.6%+ needed according to your calculations. Even if they don't, HMRC won't let this drop and will likely challenge it given AA's reported history of playing with the figures.

 

It is possible, but the creditors might prefer to receive 30p in the pound over five years (example) than nothing in the event of Poopey being liquidated.

[Crab Lungs]

I will love watching Pompey were ever they play, as I am sure you all would Saints.

 

Of course, it was good beating Saints. You would think the same. I dont think Pompey are that great that I cant celebrate a win over a league one side. Saints are a good side and I reckon you will be up at a canter next season. I reckon it was a great win for Pompey. At least you cant call me deluded.

 

As for you all lauging at me being pleased about getting to the Cup final - well yeh, Ive watched Pompey for 35 years and weve only done it twice in that time. You would have to be mental not to think that was great.

 

I am not being smug, just acknowledging that its nothing short of miraculous (sp?) for Pompey to get to the FA Cup final twice in 3 years. I dont hink Pompey are so brilliant that I shouldnt be pleased with that.

 

And for all you saying we are going into oblivion, all the more reason to enjoy this short time in the sun.

 

I thank you all for helping in outing these lying scum that are in our club at the moment. The storrie post reminds me just how much we have been done over. Make no mistake, the Pompey fans have been well and truly done over by this lot.

 

So, yeh, I will look back on the relative glory (by Pompey standards) and be thankful, because after all, it is a football club that I support and footballing wise I have had it pretty good for 7 years.

 

Bring on the dross, Que sara, sara. I am sure you would all be saying the same thing if it were Saints. After all, the one thing that unites us is that we are real football fans and just love the club we were born to. We didnt choose our team unlike the Man ures etc. We have no choice but to take the rough with the smooth.

 

For all you that think we have cheated. Do you really think that the majority of Pompey fans would have wanted to have cheated? Of course not, we really beleived (or should I say, wanted to believe) that the money was there. We were told so :smt105

 

When Saints were in trouble last year I wished you all luck as I am proud to have Saints as a rival. Saints are a club befittiing of being our rivals.

 

Sorry to go on but I only get 3 posts a day. Hope that goes some way to explaining my posts anyway. I certainly dont mean to be smug.

 

Good luck to you all and I reckon that missing out on the playoffs this year will most likely be a belssing is disguise as your romp it next year and that will be more fun.

 

Hmmm, that post now has me reviewing my original opinion!

 

I really hate it when Skates go all articulate, sensible and extend the hand of friendship...

 

PIR - don't you know its easier just to hate eachother?

[St Landrew]

There's no way I'm even beginning to wade through this thread, so if anyone has already posted this, then I apologise: Pompey debt reportedly close to £120M

[angelman]

What happens if Pompey aren't allowed to play in CCC? I presume that the timings will be too late, for the top 3 of L1 to go up and spots 4-7 to go through play offs for the fourth spot.

 

Anyone know what would happen?

[JackFrost]

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_001501&propertyType=document

 

If AA did try and balloon the debt so HMRC just so happened to be under the 25%, could '2 play at that game'?.

 

See section 3.1 for example

 

"Any penalty that we (HMRC) impose will be a percentage of the tax evaded. In law, the penalty can be 100% of the agreed or alleged tax which has been underdeclared."

[Matthew Le God]

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_001501&propertyType=document

 

If AA did try and balloon the debt so HMRC just so happened to be under the 25%, could '2 play at that game'?.

 

See section 3.1 for example

 

"Any penalty that we (HMRC) impose will be a percentage of the tax evaded. In law, the penalty can be 100% of the agreed or alleged tax which has been underdeclared."

 

I may be wrong but don't see how that is relevant in this case. That is for cases of tax evasion/fraud. Pompey is a case of non payment and surely the document you linked to doesn't apply.

[View From The Top]

Am I reading this right? Do they have to pay nearly £28million of footballing debts in full?

[JackFrost]

I may be wrong but don't see how that is relevant in this case. That is for cases of tax evasion/fraud. Pompey is a case of non payment and surely the document you linked to doesn't apply.

 

Maybe not and there may well be a relevant link someone could find as it was a 30 second google job, but I vaguely suspected (and I think GM mentioned it a couple of pages back) that HMRC were within their power to impose further financial penalties for the continued non-payment, thus ballooning the tax and increasing their CVA percentage.

 

I may be talking complete rubbish but can anyone ITK confirm if this is possible?

Edited 21 April, 2010 by JackFrost

[chocco boxo]

All those agent fees !!! No wonder Arry boy is minted!!!!!!!

[View From The Top]

So they have to pay the following.

 

£28mill of footballing debts.

 

£14mill of secured debts.

 

£12.6mill of unsecured in using 20p per £1.

 

£54.6mill to start with!

[ottery st mary]

All those agent fees !!! No wonder Arry boy is minted!!!!!!!

 

Reminds me of the old Terry Venables, Brian Clough, George Graham...

Teddy Sherringham and the suitcase of wonga...Allegedly

 

The agents fees/activity is not looked at by the FA/EPL closely enough.....The HMRC looking ever more closely but I believe the loans section should be torn to shreds......Money not moving in any direction as suggested by the The CARRY ON ACCOUNTING release by Andy 'Sid James' Andranoid fella.

 

When it gets to a 150 mil debt , will the authorities start to tut tut..

[bridge too far]

Hmmmm

 

"HMRC is owed around £15m and was expected to oppose the CVA on the basis that it does not agree with the football creditors rule, which guarantees payment in full to players and clubs. But it is understood that it will only oppose the CVA if it feels it has a realistic chance of success."

 

from today's Guardian

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/apr/21/portsmouth-119m-debt-football

[rallyboy]

interesting figures, this is the first time I've seen all the dirty detail laid this bare and I reckon most Pompey fans will be horrified if they look at it...

 

So in January 2011 they are due to pay about £2.4M in historic transfer fees, that'll be easy for a championship club to find!

Future transfer income has all gone to keep the debt to £105M, so if AA is now using parachute payments to meet running costs there will be no future income of any significance at all for at least two years.

 

And in the current period they were due to pay clubs over £10M between Jan and May - that in addition to the general running costs.

I also note that the delayed payments to clubs are costing a fortune in interest.

 

I don't see Campbell's debt on there? Though they still owe Crouch and Johnson!

 

If AA has managed the figures to squeeze the taxman below 25% the taxman only needs to lean on one or two creditors or seek their 'support' - he could make them an offer they can't refuse, they are a powerful agency and as a business you want to keep on the right side of them.

Presumably the increasing monthly tax debt and some dodgy loan deals are to be added to that document as time goes on.

 

And if I was a small business owed £2K by anyone and was offered 20p in the £, I would rather see them liquidated that get back £10 a month for the next few years - no question, If I could damage any company that had cheated me I would.

 

So whatever AA thinks, that CVA isn't going to sign itself.

[stevegrant]

Wow, that PDF contains some absolute gold.

 

For example, the NON-PLAYING staff have agreed to defer a percentage of their wages. Absolutely no mention of the players.

 

Fratton Park is valued at £7.7m on the balance sheet, but "for the purposes of this exercise, we believe the value to be nearer to £15m"... sorry, what??

[suewhistle]

Apologies if this has been mentioned (couldn't see it), but on the front page of The Guardian online edition:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/apr/21/portsmouth-119m-debt-football

[hypochondriac]

So they have to pay the following.

 

£28mill of footballing debts.

 

£14mill of secured debts.

 

£12.6mill of unsecured in using 20p per £1.

 

£54.6mill to start with!

 

And if Chanrai gets the club he can pay off footballing debts with the parachute payments (with some left over), offer 1p in the pound with the alternative being the end of the club. Sell off a load of players and pocket the money. Simples.

[OldNick]

I assume when they go into admin, the HMRC canot add on any penalties.

To me the whole saga has been one of avoidance and manouver to avoid justice.

I have taken stick for my stance but the day the registrar did not do her duty was the day that reinforced my feeling that Pompey would indeed get away with it.

The hope of proper punishment is being shaved down by the day. AA is confident in a ****y way of how he is going to get a CVA. Chanria will own the club for pennies at the same time drawing a large amount of money out.

If the HMRC wlak away with little and the FL is our last hope of them getting any real pain.

[hypochondriac]

One question I wanted answering was how can AA agree a CVA when he has no buyer? It's all very well agreeing so many pence in the pound but what if the creditors want to hang on to see if they can get better or a buyer wants to negotiate his own CVA?

[bridge too far]

I assume when they go into admin, the HMRC canot add on any penalties.

To me the whole saga has been one of avoidance and manouver to avoid justice.

I have taken stick for my stance but the day the registrar did not do her duty was the day that reinforced my feeling that Pompey would indeed get away with it.

The hope of proper punishment is being shaved down by the day. AA is confident in a ****y way of how he is going to get a CVA. Chanria will own the club for pennies at the same time drawing a large amount of money out.

If the HMRC wlak away with little and the FL is our last hope of them getting any real pain.

 

Nick, I wish you'd stop banging on about this. Are you a senior lawyer / barrister? Do you not understand that law is very defined. There is no room for emotion. She had to make a judgement on the evidence presented to her, not on what she (and others) may have THOUGHT to be the case.

 

She was doing her job.

[Saint in Paradise]

Apologies if this has been mentioned (couldn't see it), but on the front page of The Guardian online edition:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/apr/21/portsmouth-119m-debt-football

 

Posted just 3 posts above yours

[Joensuu]

Nick, I wish you'd stop banging on about this. Are you a senior lawyer / barrister? Do you not understand that law is very defined. There is no room for emotion. She had to make a judgement on the evidence presented to her, not on what she (and others) may have THOUGHT to be the case.

 

She was doing her job.

 

+ 1

[Saint in Paradise]

Nick, I wish you'd stop banging on about this. Are you a senior lawyer / barrister? Do you not understand that law is very defined. There is no room for emotion. She had to make a judgement on the evidence presented to her, not on what she (and others) may have THOUGHT to be the case.

 

She was doing her job.

 

Snag is she did have evidence but she did her job alright ---- badly :mad:

[OldNick]

Nick, I wish you'd stop banging on about this. Are you a senior lawyer / barrister? Do you not understand that law is very defined. There is no room for emotion. She had to make a judgement on the evidence presented to her, not on what she (and others) may have THOUGHT to be the case.

 

She was doing her job.

No Im not a lawyer/barrister but the people who were who were interviewed at the time were surprised that she had not done so.

To be fair if Vantis had done their job properly and the debts put before her that are out now, I have no doubt she would not have had any second thoughts and closed them down.

[sidthesquid]

Hmmm, that post now has me reviewing my original opinion!

 

I really hate it when Skates go all articulate, sensible and extend the hand of friendship...

 

PIR - don't you know its easier just to hate eachother?

 

It's a bit scary, isn't it? I call it evolution

[Joensuu]

It's a bit scary, isn't it? I call it evolution

 

I call it asking his teacher for help with writing a post

[ottery st mary]

I am with nickh on this one......The evidence was overwhelming and should have resulted in a closure of PFC......sOMETHING OR SOMEONE AT THAT COURT CASE WAS HAD OVER..sOMETHING SMELLS..

[Saint Paul C]

To be fair if Vantis had done their job properly and the debts put before her that are out now, I have no doubt she would not have had any second thoughts and closed them down.

 

I think that it's pretty fair to assume that info was hidden from Vantis at the time they created the SOA to paint a better picture than the one which has come into the public domain over the past week or so. I'd like to suggest that this is fraudulent behavior by the directors of PartSmurf.

[Joensuu]

http://fansonline.net/portsmouth/article.php?id=1396