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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
he has arranged a meeting with creditors on May 6th, to put a proposal whch he expects to be agreed no problem, in fact he sounded so blaise about it on Radio Solent!

 

It's not going to be hard considering the main creditors are Gaydamak and Chanria.

 

CHEATS

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rallyboy

rallyboy

Posted
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yes I'm sure all the businesses owed money will be quite happy to surrender huge chunks of their own cash whilst watching the club bank cup money and parachute payments.

 

AA doesn't even know who is offering what or what is actually owed to whom without the forensic work so he's plucking ideas and fantasy figures out of the air.

He's going into a game of poker with a hand of shlte and desperately talking up his chances.

 

Me not fooled - much hassle ahead.

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krissyboy31

krissyboy31

Posted
Posted
yes I'm sure all the businesses owed money will be quite happy to surrender huge chunks of their own cash whilst watching the club bank cup money and parachute payments.

 

AA doesn't even know who is offering what or what is actually owed to whom without the forensic work so he's plucking ideas and fantasy figures out of the air.

He's going into a game of poker with a hand of shlte and desperately talking up his chances.

 

Me not fooled - much hassle ahead.

 

It's a case of "we haven't got a buyer, we have no assets, we're haemorrhaging several million pounds a month. I propose we pay you a penny in the pound over a period of the next 50 years." "What do you mean, you're not signing?!"

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted
yes I'm sure all the businesses owed money will be quite happy to surrender huge chunks of their own cash whilst watching the club bank cup money and parachute payments.

 

AA doesn't even know who is offering what or what is actually owed to whom without the forensic work so he's plucking ideas and fantasy figures out of the air.

He's going into a game of poker with a hand of shlte and desperately talking up his chances.

 

Me not fooled - much hassle ahead.

 

But they only need 75% of creditors to agree a CVA and I expect they have fixed it so Chanrai and Gaydamak account to 76% so whatever the others want doesn't matter.

 

Chanrai will buy it back, that is obvious.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)
But they only need 75% of creditors to agree a CVA and I expect they have fixed it so Chanrai and Gaydamak account to 76% so whatever the others want doesn't matter.

 

Well it does matter cos if as you say "they have fixed it" then the **** will hit the fan. AA has been accused in the past of fixing the votes of other CVA's for companies.

Edited by Matthew Le God
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angelman

angelman

Posted
Posted
he has arranged a meeting with creditors on May 6th, to put a proposal whch he expects to be agreed no problem, in fact he sounded so blaise about it on Radio Solent!

 

why choose May 6th? Can't he have chosen a better date than that of the General (and local) elections?

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Saints foreva

Saints foreva

Posted
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But the football debts and the HMRC debts cant be less than 100%. Even if the others are agreed?

 

Is that correct?

 

Football debts have to be 100% or Pompey will have a transfer embargo until they're fully paid.

 

HMRC are no longer secure creditors so expect that £18m or taxes to be cleared by a new owner paying £6-8m.

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JustMike

JustMike

Posted
Posted
Football debts have to be 100% or Pompey will have a transfer embargo until they're fully paid.

 

HMRC are no longer secure creditors so expect that £18m or taxes to be cleared by a new owner paying £6-8m.

 

 

why not? thought they were?

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sidthesquid

sidthesquid

Posted
Posted
why not? thought they were?

 

Deffo not - that is what p1sses them off so much, but I am certain that the FL will not let Poopey walk away with £10mill of tax-payers money unpunished, whatever the CVA agreed. (Remember it is a 'club' and it has a great 'exceptional circumstances' rule to allow it to do what it likes.)

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Fowllyd

Fowllyd

Posted
Posted
Football debts have to be 100% or Pompey will have a transfer embargo until they're fully paid.

 

HMRC are no longer secure creditors so expect that £18m or taxes to be cleared by a new owner paying £6-8m.

 

It doesn't actually have anything to do with being a secured creditor - HMRC are not and have never been a secured creditor, and the same applies to football creditors. A secured creditor is a creditor whose loan is secured against assets, that's all. So, if you have a mortgage and an overdraft, the mortgagor is a secured creditor as their loan to you is secured against your house. The bank isn't, as the overdraft is not secured against anything which you own.

 

The PL and FL both insist on football debts being paid off 100%, and don't give a stuff about any other creditors - that's the bit that písses off HMRC. However, the FL also insist that a club exit administration with a CVA agreed; this won't happen if HMRC hold a sufficient proportion of unsecured debt, meaning an additional points penalty next season.

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NickG

NickG

Posted
Posted
It doesn't actually have anything to do with being a secured creditor - HMRC are not and have never been a secured creditor, and the same applies to football creditors. A secured creditor is a creditor whose loan is secured against assets, that's all. So, if you have a mortgage and an overdraft, the mortgagor is a secured creditor as their loan to you is secured against your house. The bank isn't, as the overdraft is not secured against anything which you own.

 

The PL and FL both insist on football debts being paid off 100%, and don't give a stuff about any other creditors - that's the bit that písses off HMRC. However, the FL also insist that a club exit administration with a CVA agreed; this won't happen if HMRC hold a sufficient proportion of unsecured debt, meaning an additional points penalty next season.

 

I am sure they won't!

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HK_Phoey

HK_Phoey

Posted
Posted
It doesn't actually have anything to do with being a secured creditor - HMRC are not and have never been a secured creditor, and the same applies to football creditors. A secured creditor is a creditor whose loan is secured against assets, that's all. So, if you have a mortgage and an overdraft, the mortgagor is a secured creditor as their loan to you is secured against your house. The bank isn't, as the overdraft is not secured against anything which you own.

 

The PL and FL both insist on football debts being paid off 100%, and don't give a stuff about any other creditors - that's the bit that písses off HMRC. However, the FL also insist that a club exit administration with a CVA agreed; this won't happen if HMRC hold a sufficient proportion of unsecured debt, meaning an additional points penalty next season.

 

My understanding is that you cannot pick and chose the unsecured creditors you pay off though. The CVA is basically an agreement of all unsecured creditors to accept less than what they are owed. If one gets 30% they all get 30%. You cannot chose to pay one at 100% and one at 30%

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rallyboy

rallyboy

Posted
Posted

HMRC hasn't given it up yet, they're playing a waiting game and at the last court appearance didn't they reserve the right to re-challenge aspects of the administration?

Beware of a taxman who is worryingly silent, he may well have a plan - and let's remember he's turned down an offer of 99p in the pound before.

 

Either way a new owner will still have to fund the football debts, a significant proportion of the tax, and a restructure of the big two debts will create massive overheads for a Championship club.

 

Despite no sign of a forensic look at the accounts or any explanation for several missing millions, AA has managed to get all of the new investors and consortiums into an orderly queue so he can satisfy the creditors without delay, he's close to securing an unblemished CVA and confirming European football for next season.

He must be very good to have managed all this.

 

I am starting to wonder if every time he and Grant open their mouths it isn't just spin and rubbish coming out to placate dim people.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
My understanding is that you cannot pick and chose the unsecured creditors you pay off though. The CVA is basically an agreement of all unsecured creditors to accept less than what they are owed. If one gets 30% they all get 30%. You cannot chose to pay one at 100% and one at 30%

 

Yes but.

 

That is the law, however the Football Authorities will not provide you with permission to play in their competitions UNLESS you re-pay Football Debts in full. So 30% of football debts - no football next season.

 

HMRC took it to Court and lost and THAT is why they are kicking up a storm and why AA will have problems

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Gorgiesaint

Gorgiesaint

Posted
Posted
The PL and FL both insist on football debts being paid off 100%, and don't give a stuff about any other creditors - that's the bit that písses off HMRC. However, the FL also insist that a club exit administration with a CVA agreed; this won't happen if HMRC hold a sufficient proportion of unsecured debt, meaning an additional points penalty next season.

 

My understanding is that you cannot pick and chose the unsecured creditors you pay off though. The CVA is basically an agreement of all unsecured creditors to accept less than what they are owed. If one gets 30% they all get 30%. You cannot chose to pay one at 100% and one at 30%

 

I think this will be the crux of the matter - they need to pay the football debts in full to satisfy the league rules but then must pay all other unsecured debts to the same level under the laws of the land. Right now, I cannot see how they will get out of it, let's just hope that HMRC are watching closely.

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Weston Saint

Weston Saint

Posted
Posted
Yes but.

 

That is the law, however the Football Authorities will not provide you with permission to play in their competitions UNLESS you re-pay Football Debts in full. So 30% of football debts - no football next season.

 

HMRC took it to Court and lost and THAT is why they are kicking up a storm and why AA will have problems

Add to that, it is the new owners who have to make up the football debt to 100%. That will be money they cannot use to invest in the club.

 

Football debt £10m say 30% CVA = £3m So the new owners will have to find £7m immediately just to get a chance for the club to compete.

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Saint_John

Saint_John

Posted
Posted

As I understand it the creditors then have a 28 day "Cooling off period" to review the CVA in which they can go to the High Court and complain about it.

 

In the case of Leeds, HMRC waited 27 days and 23 hours before complaining about 2 creditors voting for the CVA.

They then added the issue that Football Creditors get paid 100% whereas they only received something like 8p in the pound.

 

In effect they "took the Administrator to Court over the FL rules", this meant that the court case would have lasted 5 days, and therefore was delayed until Sept 2007 (The case didn't take place, however the principle is there that HMRC will go to Court).

 

Because of court action Leeds could not get a CVA "signed off" until after the start of the season (Skate web sites says it is the date the fixture list are produced, which is 15th June this year), and therefore had to accept a 15 point penalty at the start of the season.

 

I believe it will go the same way with the Skates, i.e. if AA is saying 6th May then HMRC has until 2nd/3rd June to go to the High Court.

(Remember there are lots of issues HMRC can complain about) and any case is unlikely to be heard because the 15th June (if this date is correct).

 

I expect lots of verbal diarrhoea in the press about "how this is unfair and the Tax issues should be decided on the Subbuteo Table" or other such rubbish, while HMRC will be completely silent on the issue.

 

Look out for High Court action on the 2/3 of June.

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Gorgiesaint

Gorgiesaint

Posted
Posted

Some interesting quotes in the BBC article about Dindane...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/p/portsmouth/8628604.stm

 

Meanwhile, following the appointment of David Lampitt, the Football Association's head of football integrity as Portsmouth's new chief executive earlier in April, Andronikou is planning more boardroom changes.

 

......

 

"I want to beef up the board and I should be able to make an announcement about that in the next couple of weeks," said Andronikou of insolvency experts UHY Hacker Young. "Doing that sends out an important message to the creditors."

 

Porstmouth's current owner is Balram Chainrai, who owns 90% of the club through Falcondrone Ltd, but Andronikou revealed he is no closer to finding a buyer for the relegated team.

 

....

 

"My main objective is about saving the club, not selling it. If and when a suitable buyer appears any deal could be done in a couple of days."

 

He's planning further changes to the boardroom - is this part of an administrators remit? Serious questions should be asked by the courts as to what this guy is up to. His main objective should be to gain the best deal for the creditors, not save the club.

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aintforever

aintforever

Posted
Posted (edited)
Football debts have to be 100% or Pompey will have a transfer embargo until they're fully paid.

 

HMRC are no longer secure creditors so expect that £18m or taxes to be cleared by a new owner paying £6-8m.

 

The way I see it is Chanrai is a secured creditor so it makes sense for him to buy it back, otherwise whoever buys the dump will have to shell out 100% of whats owed to Chanrai, 100% of football debts and a percentages of their other debt mountain - in other words, alot of cash for not alot of football club.

 

If Chanria bought it back he would only have to settle the footie debt and give the tax man etc 1p in the pound then he would own the club outright debt free, milk it for what's left of the parachutes then flog it.

 

I'm guessing if the football debt is more than what the clubs worth Chanrai could make more money by liquidating it completely, then I suppose he's first in line for the dosh and football debts are not important as there is no club.

Edited by aintforever
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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted
The way I see it is Chanrai is a secured creditor so it makes sense for him to buy it back, otherwise whoever buys the dump will have to shell out 100% of whats owed to Chanrai, 100% of football debts and a percentages of their other debt mountain - in other words, alot of cash for not alot of football club.

 

If Chanria bought it back he would only have to settle the footie debt and give the tax man etc 1p in the pound then he would own the club outright debt free, milk it for what's left of the parachutes then flog it.

 

I'm guessing if the football debt is more than what the clubs worth Chanrai could make more money by liquidating it completely, then I suppose he's first in line for the dosh and football debts are not important as there is no club.

The talk of PFCtrust FC has gone it seems, and the BSL seems a dsitant prediction. Most seem to believe that they will now be in CCC next season and now await what punishment, in minus points are served up. To me it is not fair punishment.

Perhaps we are all waiting for the post cup final actions.

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Whitey Grandad

Whitey Grandad

Posted
Posted
Deffo not - that is what p1sses them off so much, but I am certain that the FL will not let Poopey walk away with £10mill of tax-payers money unpunished, whatever the CVA agreed. (Remember it is a 'club' and it has a great 'exceptional circumstances' rule to allow it to do what it likes.)

They used to be preferential creditors but that has not been the case since September 2003. Now they have the same status as the others.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted

 

Surely, this again is akin to cheating. I thought they were not allowed to increase debt or staff. I'm at a loss as to why the FA/PL are not taking double A to task!:confused:

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted
Wtf - how can a club with no money & £100mill debt keep effectively signing players? Something about all that is going on down there is fishier than a skate's armpit.

 

As Saint Clark said...

 

After a personal plea by Dindane, Lens have now accepted a £200,000 payment to waive their right to the fee

 

Although not confirmed by that statement entirely, it does seem to suggest Dindane may have paid it.

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Matthew Le God

Matthew Le God

Posted
Posted (edited)

Debts now £119 million

 

http://www.espn.co.uk/espn/sport/story/18414.html

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/Po...eal.6239564.jp

 

Very different from the intial £60 million reported. Twice as much in fact. Or the £78 million Mr Andronikou said it would "bottom out" at. Also a lot more than the independent forensic accountants report by Vantis. Where are these previously unknown debts coming from? Why weren't they known about before when the independent Vantis accountants team were looking through the books?

 

Seems Mr Andronikou is up to his old tricks of making the debt bigger so he wins the CVA. Something he has been accused of in the past when the administrator of other companies.

Edited by Matthew Le God
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Crab Lungs

Crab Lungs

Posted
Posted

God, they are revolting. Why won't they die? Everything about them is f()cking disgraceful. Cheated season after season and I've still seen no real 'punishment' been bestowed upon them other than the obligatory -9.

 

And they still have the audacity to whinge about being 'unfairly treated' whilst lapping up the plaudits for their 'excellent' support from the media.

 

Cheats prosper, it appears.

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Sevvy

Sevvy

Posted
Posted

I think the fraud Squad should now be looking at these figures, the debt changes from week to week. What does Vantis think of this, it give no credibility to them when the SOA they produced states that the owed a lot less. What is going on.

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