Pompey Takeover Saga

[dubai_phil]

Alan, I considered the same conundrum a few pages ago, where I said that I think the parachute payments are out of reach for the administrator unless he could guarantee that they could compete next season.

 

Of course, the PL would have to give an absolute guarantee to pay back the loan, irrespective of whether they are liquidated or not. Otherwise no lender will touch them.

 

I think it comes down to the status of the parachute payments, and I don't know the answer to that.

 

If they are "enhanced" tv rights payments, then I still think they are out of reach.

 

But if they are some sort of "guaranteed compensation" for being relegated, paid in installments for cash flow purposes (Sky's, the PL's or the club's), then I think it could happen.

 

Having read the recent statements, I think the latter is the most likely, particularly as it appears that the parachute payments are made by the PL, even though the club would be competing in the FL. If they were enhanced tv rights payments, they would be more likely paid by the FL.

 

The funding has been sorted based on TV money & parachute payments.

vehicles already exist with PL approval for financing of clubs.

[dubai_phil]

Portsmouth havn't been able to borrow from a bank for years. Thier troubles started when thier banks called in thier loans. That was before the recession.

Portsmouth would not be getting money from sons of arms dealers or desert dwellers if they could just go into Lloyds or Barclays and fill out a form.

 

The administrator can "restructure thier debts" I doubt that any loan can come from any PLC with shareholders, they are just too risky. I agree the PL could Borrow the money and give it to Portsmouth.

 

Is the PL registered as a licenced credit broker?

 

They do not have to be. They only have to approve processes for company's that wish to become brokers supplying to their members

 

HTH

[dubai_phil]

Here's some "news" from L'Equipe, no doubt it's already in the Sundays anyway.

 

Apparently Pompey owe more than at first thought, somewhere around 78 million £. The administrator can't quite understand just how they've sold so many players for quite a lot of money (100 million according to L'Equipe) and still have so much debt. So the Admin is going to look into the transfers in detail, one by one to try to fathom out where all the funds have gone...good hunting my friend.

 

He could start by looking at the Sales Invoices from Rymans around th times of the transfers.

 

Brown Envelope sales could be a good alleged place to start

[EastleighSoulBoy]

 

Thanks to my mate who put it on FB

[dubai_phil]

 

Thanks to my mate who put it on FB

 

Exclnt send to my skate mate locally

 

cheers

[Saint J 77]

 

Thanks to my mate who put it on FB

 

Perhaps you could submit that design for Pompey's new club badge to the administrator if he is still there for the start of next season.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Exclnt send to my skate mate locally

 

cheers

 

More suitable?

 

[sidthesquid]

The point with player contracts is that the administrator can terminate any player's contract like any other employees within the terms of redundancy etc law. BUT if all footballing debt, including all contractual obligations to players, are not met in full the FL will withhold their 'Golden Share' meaning that the club cannot participate in the Football League. That is why we had Saga & Rasiak hanging around like a bad smell for so long, because even the administrator couldn't shift them off the books without paying them up in full.

[CB Saint]

Has the Inland Revenue ever challanged the Football Creditor rule? I just saw this comment from the FT

 

Graeme Levy of Olswang, the legal practice, says that Portmsouth’s insolvency will put those creditor rules in the spotlight.

 

“This is the first time these rules have been applied,” Mr Levy says. “It is questionable whether they are consistent with the laws of the land.”

 

The rules should be abolished, says Stefan Szymanksi, economist at Cass Business School, and not just because it favours rich young footballers over first-aid volunteers.

 

“It undermines the incentive of the league to put in place some self-regulatory mechanism to control the finances of the club,” says Prof Szymanski

[Channon's Sideburns]

One thing that annoyed me was Gordon Brown getting involved.

 

The foooker goes on about how sad it is with them in Admin, conveniently forgetting that the Skate B@stards have ripped off HMRC - and broken the laws of HIS land in the process.

[rallyboy]

until they're properly punished for the criminality and deceit that has occured I don't even recognise them as a football club.

If they want to play to their own rules outside the structure of the Prem and the FA that's fine but no football fan should think they are hard done by or deserving of sympathy.

 

Dear Pompey

Take the penalty points, return the loan players, offload players you can't afford, get rid of ones you haven't registered, get the crooks to step down, prove you haven't broken Prem rules by trading insolvently, stop driving your manager to brothels, stop ripping off small businesses and charities, show us your books are legal, clear your debts, pay your tax

- and then you can be (reluctantly) welcomed back as a valid part of the british game.

 

As far as I am concerned Burnley are bottom of the table in 19th place, the one below them isn't playing to the same rules and shouldn't be included in the competition.

[Tamesaint]

If the administrator is going to investigate where the money has gone from all the sales over the last few years, he will be a very busy boy.

 

Is he going to have time to find any buyers for the club??

[Weston Saint]

Has the Inland Revenue ever challanged the Football Creditor rule? I just saw this comment from the FT

 

Graeme Levy of Olswang, the legal practice, says that Portmsouth’s insolvency will put those creditor rules in the spotlight.

 

“This is the first time these rules have been applied,” Mr Levy says. “It is questionable whether they are consistent with the laws of the land.”

 

The rules should be abolished, says Stefan Szymanksi, economist at Cass Business School, and not just because it favours rich young footballers over first-aid volunteers.

 

“It undermines the incentive of the league to put in place some self-regulatory mechanism to control the finances of the club,” says Prof Szymanski

 

Inland Revenue Commissioners v *Wimbledon FC (2004), challenged football creditor rule and lost

[Dark Munster]

until they're properly punished for the criminality and deceit that has occured I don't even recognise them as a football club.

If they want to play to their own rules outside the structure of the Prem and the FA that's fine but no football fan should think they are hard done by or deserving of sympathy.

 

Dear Pompey

Take the penalty points, return the loan players, offload players you can't afford, get rid of ones you haven't registered, get the crooks to step down, prove you haven't broken Prem rules by trading insolvently, stop driving your manager to brothels, stop ripping off small businesses and charities, show us your books are legal, clear your debts, pay your tax

- and then you can be (reluctantly) welcomed back as a valid part of the british game.

 

As far as I am concerned Burnley are bottom of the table in 19th place, the one below them isn't playing to the same rules and shouldn't be included in the competition.

.... as well as the FA Cup. Kick the bastards out and give Brum a bye.

[Eastcowzer]

The PL want rid of PFC..... End of

 

They will make whatever concesssion necessary to get them to the end of the season, but will also do everything possible to make sure they are relegated

 

The administrator comments are just negotiations

 

It will be a case of the PL releasing funding or whatever as long as they accept the points penalty

 

(can you imagine the bottom half of the table voting for no points penalty..... Turkeys..... Christmas.....

 

Pity we can't get rid of the Premier League as well.

A totally over-rated licence to print money, serving up dross, in the name of football

[hutch]

The funding has been sorted based on TV money & parachute payments.

vehicles already exist with PL approval for financing of clubs.

Phil, the first question was whether the PL would lend them money, or whether it would stand as guarantor to others to lend them money.

 

I'm fairly clear in my mind that it's the latter.

 

The follow up comment was that the banks aren't prepared to lend to Pompey. We know that PCFC (in administration) Ltd. is a completely different animal from the old PCFC Ltd.

 

 

So what does today hold in store? My guess is that Storrie will be summarily shown the door.

 

Statements that:

 

■ The administrators have asked me to work with them

■ I will work with the administrators to find a buyer

■ I'll stand down after a new buyer has been found

■ I'm prepared to take a pay cut

 

have all come from Storrie.

 

I've only seen or heard five words from the android on the subject:

 

"Peter Storrie's position is untenable"

 

Bye, Pete.

[CB Saint]

Inland Revenue Commissioners v *Wimbledon FC (2004), challenged football creditor rule and lost

 

In that case, the Inland Revenue will have to do what it usually does in these situations and change the law, banning this type of creditor. Maybe too late for Pompey, but it should be in time for one of the big ones like Liverpool

[NickG]

getting boring now!

 

Administrator on solent at 9.20

[pedg]

Think the funniest thing would be that, after pompey delayed going into admin to see if their league position could make them more saleable, they now win enough games so that they would have stayed up if not for the 9 point deduction.

 

Also don't know if this has been mentioned from Saturday's news.

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/newshome/Experts-were-shocked-at-club39s.6109933.jp

Nick O'Reilly, client partner at Vantis business recovery services, was given unlimited access to Pompey's financial affairs.

 

He told The News he was shocked at the poor financial management at Fratton Park. And he also warned of redundancies and wage cuts for staff at the club.

 

Mr O'Reilly said: '

It's clear that the club was insolvent

because it would have been wound-up on Monday if they had not gone into administration.

[JustMike]

so, why hasnt the -9 been applied yet?

[Matthew Le God]

so, why hasnt the -9 been applied yet?

 

Because it has to be ratified at a Premier League board meeting on Tuesday. As is the case for every team that has had a points deduction it isn't applied as soon as they go into administration, the Premier League or Football League have to confirm it.

[Viking Warrior]

Just supposing the PL renage on giving the skates a -9 point dedudction

does that mean saints and others can sue the footballing authorities for inequality eqaully if they are given leave to appeal then surely we would have a prima facia case against the FA league etc. You cannot treat one club differently from another even if they are in the premier league

[JustMike]

Because it has to be ratified at a Premier League board meeting on Tuesday. As is the case for every team that has had a points deduction it isn't applied as soon as they go into administration, the Premier League or Football League have to confirm it.

 

ah ok thanks, im looking forward to sending screenshots of the new table to my skate friends :-)

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Just supposing the PL renage on giving the skates a -9 point dedudction

does that mean saints and others can sue the footballing authorities for inequality eqaully if they are given leave to appeal then surely we would have a prima facia case against the FA league etc. You cannot treat one club differently from another even if they are in the premier league

 

Although I agree with you I don't think our case would hold water as the PL works under a different set of rules from the FL and this would be the main line of defence in any court case.

[rallyboy]

that'll be a long debate - all those in favour of the penalty?.....yep, that's everyone, next case.

 

So how long do we give Storrie, and how long before the administrator announces that he has called the old bill?

I give Storrie until Wednesday, and even then he will spin his sacking into a glorious exit.

 

Admin. 'Peter, I ought to advise you that I've spoken to the police and they are very keen to have a look'

Storrie. 'Fantastic news, I didn't even know Sting was a football fan, can I sit next to him in the director's box?'

[tony13579]

On Friday we heard the administrator tell everyone he would repay the £60 million dent and he could put portsmouth back on track. The club would suvive.

 

it is now £78million of debt, when raisung money the last bit of money is the hardest bit to find.

 

A lot has changed since Friday. £18 million of extra debt has been discovered. Do not be supprised if he pops up this week and states that he has to pre-pack the club and write off the debt.

Edited 1 March, 2010 by tony13579

[JackFrost]

Just supposing the PL renage on giving the skates a -9 point dedudction

does that mean saints and others can sue the footballing authorities for inequality eqaully if they are given leave to appeal then surely we would have a prima facia case against the FA league etc. You cannot treat one club differently from another even if they are in the premier league

 

I very much doubt that will happen for two reasons.

 

1) It would cause widespread uproar as it's as good as a public statement confirming it's one rule for PL clubs and another for FL clubs

 

2) The PL want to be rid of Pompey ASAP and want to hand the whole problem over to the FL. Pompey are an embarrassment to the PL right now

Edited 1 March, 2010 by JackFrost

[pedg]

I very much doubt that will happen for two reasons.

 

1) It would cause widespread uproar as it would be a clear statement that it would be one rule for PL clubs and another for FL clubs

 

2) The PL want to be rid of Pompey ASAP and want to hand the whole problem over to the FL

 

3) Fifa are just looking for a stick to beat the PL with and letting pompey off would provide them with a hefty branch with nails in it.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

On Friday we heard the administrator tell everyone he would repay the £60 million dent and he could put portsmouth back on track. The club would suvive.

 

it is now £78million of debt, when raisung money the last bit of money is the hardest bit to find.

 

A lot has changed since Friday. £18 million of extra debt has been discovered. Do not be supprised if he pops up this week and states that he has to pre-pack the club and write off the debt.

 

Sorry for my ignorance, what is 'Pre-pack' and how does that affect the creditors and benefit the club? Is it akin to liquidation?

[OldNick]

Sorry for my ignorance, what is 'Pre-pack' and how does that affect the creditors and benefit the club? Is it akin to liquidation?

No as I understand it is a convienient way of losing your debts, closing the business one-day and re-opening a few days later after wiping off the debts and starting again. It is excused by them saying it is to protect jobs. The directors can carry on and not lose their houses etc.it is a cheats charte, I think you will find a few people do it as a living ie many 3 piece suite shops have done it in the past.

[dubai_phil]

3) Fifa are just looking for a stick to beat the PL with and letting pompey off would provide them with a hefty branch with nails in it.

 

 

FIFA don't need a big stick, there's the small matter of the "We want the World Cup in England" machine at the moment.

 

The FA are heading that up, they need to be seen to be efficient and ethical in their treatment of PCFC and in their implementation of the rules.

 

Allowing this to continue in the front of global media (which means the Skates stay in the PL) won't happen.

 

In fact even IF they were to fluke enough points and get their debts written off, a financial irregularities clause is a catch all description that could be used to effect - oh you fiddled your business expenses by claiming for a meal you were not entitled to that'll be another -15 goodbye

[tony13579]

Pre-pack administration is where the viable parts of the bussiness are packaged off and sold off to the highest bidder (often some of the old directors) and the other assets sold off. the creditors are then paid x pence in the pound. the example on wiki cobra beer where 91million debt was written off and the firm continued and employees kept thier jobs.

[Merovingian]

Just supposing the PL renage on giving the skates a -9 point dedudction

does that mean saints and others can sue the footballing authorities for inequality eqaully if they are given leave to appeal then surely we would have a prima facia case against the FA league etc. You cannot treat one club differently from another even if they are in the premier league

 

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

[L1Minus10]

 

Fans of this thread may recognize some of this...

[OldNick]

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

Have you really no shame. In what morla grounds do you really think you should appeal?

No normal business risk it has no control over !!!!!! So trading whilst insolvent lol

and these problems were before the said 2 owners had arrived.

[hutch]

Pre-pack administration is where the viable parts of the bussiness are packaged off and sold off to the highest bidder (often some of the old directors) and the other assets sold off. the creditors are then paid x pence in the pound. the example on wiki cobra beer where 91million debt was written off and the firm continued and employees kept thier jobs.

That's administration.

 

Pre-pack is where the deal of what will be sold off, to whom and for how much (and who will be stitched up) is already agreed between the owners/directors and the (soon to be) administrator before the Company is even placed into administration.

 

Sharp practice, but apparently legal.

[stevegrant]

Given that Peter Storrie should, as the man in charge of running the club, have conducted due dilligence on the people he was bringing into the club as owners (and, in the case of Gaydamak, continued to do so on a regular basis), I would imagine the "officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event" bit won't count here.

[hutch]

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

That's not 2 means. That's 1 means, but you have to satisfy both tests to win. No chance.

[Lord Duckhunter]

 

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

 

 

You had 2 choices last week, admin (and the -9 that goes with it), or taking your chances in court today. You choose admin, and now seem to be complaining about the consiquences of that decision. From Grant, down to your supporters, you lot seem to think the rules dont apply to you.

 

The rules were in place when you decided not to pay the taxman.

[tony13579]

That's administration.

 

Pre-pack is where the deal of what will be sold off, to whom and for how much (and who will be stitched up) is already agreed between the owners/directors and the (soon to be) administrator before the Company is even placed into administration.

 

Sharp practice, but apparently legal.

 

you are right..

[dubai_phil]

You had 2 choices last week, admin (and the -9 that goes with it), or taking your chances in court today. You choose admin, and now seem to be complaining about the consiquences of that decision. From Grant, down to your supporters, you lot seem to think the rules dont apply to you.

 

The rules were in place when you decided not to pay the taxman.

 

Let's see.

 

The taxman agreed to let them pay in installments back before October time.

Pompey didn't

The taxman issued a WUO in December time.

Pompey said it didn't apply to them. It didn't happen. They appealed to get the law of the UK changed

They still could have negotiated a settlement, they didn't.

 

And then this no penalty stuff?

 

administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control'

 

They were forced into administration by a pending Court Case. The Court case was caused by a failure of the Club's Officers to comply with UK Law - ie pay your taxes.

 

Where EXACTLY did these taxes come form - Fecking La La Land?

 

Taxes = normal business risk. You could not pay them. Seeking investment is irrelevant. How many companies go bust every year because teh bank manager will not advance them a larger overdraft. Since when is THAT not "normal business risk".

 

Sorry Mero you debate well but this to me is just incredulous and you debase yourself by even trying to justify this as a defence.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

 

Now you are clutching at straws Mero! 'due diligence'! Who on earth, in the last few years at Nottarf, has exercised due diligence? Sorry mate, but you owe me for a new keyboard as mine is drowned in tea!

 

Oh! of course! We're back to blaming the PL again. FAPP.

 

You couldn't make it up.

 

Really.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

 

Fans of this thread may recognize some of this...

 

Love it! Now on FB.

[NickG]

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

 

lol!!!

 

Given that they have totally failed in managing the finances - no outsiders at fault - and continued signing players even in the latest window - I think its fair to say they have f.all chance of using that

[hutch]

It could be the PL FAPPT at fault. After all, PCFC have their own FAPPT, as part of their internal due diligence process:

 

1. Have you ever been accused, charged or convicted of Fraud? Yes. Good

2. Are there any outstanding arrest warrants for you in your home Country? Yes. Good

3. Have you got any experience of owning or running a football club? No. Even better

4. Have you got any money? No. Excellent

5. Do you have plans to invest in the club's infrastructure? No. Getting better all the time

6. Are you, in fact, a person? Well, I am part of an offshore Company in the British Virgin Islands. Does that count? Perfect

 

Welcome to Fratton Park, Mr. ..........

Edited 1 March, 2010 by hutch
an afterthought

[slickmick]

I've got a skate mate that wants to come with me and watch Saints v Walsall on Saturday.

Do I win a prize for the first conversion ?

 

 

After such a poor first 3 mins, I enjoyed the next 87mins taking the p1ss.

He found the Peter Storie song very amusing.

Fair play to him, he said it was unbelievable that we aren't in the top six, he even said he enjoyed it so much he might go again on Tuesday.

 

He asked me if I would do the same and go and watch the Skates and of course I said yes. Next season when you will be playing us.

[dingbattigger]

getting boring now!

 

Administrator on solent at 9.20

 

Anything interesting said????

[holepuncture]

My skate mate reckons the players have been fronting some of the staff wages, people like the tea lady, kit man etc...

 

No idea if true, but it fits with an article I read a while ago where a player (Hermet Hieridersson I think) was saying they players were running out of patience and were going to come clean about what is really going on with the players and staff payment.

 

Fair play to the skate players if true, shame on the club as per usual!

[rpb]

My skate mate reckons the players have been fronting some of the staff wages, people like the tea lady, kit man etc...

 

The kit man seems to earn far more than I ever did as a Deputy Head.

[Gorgiesaint]

The Premier League's own rule book provides that the nine point deduction is not mandatory and there are two means by which Pompey could well appeal.

 

Firstly if the administration was considered to have occured as a result of 'something that would not be categorised as a normal business risk over which it could reasonably be expected to have control' (Rule 62.1) and secondly that its 'officials had used all due dilligence to avoid the happening of that event' (62.2).

 

Given the suspicions outlined above and the fact that two of Pompey's three owners this season 'passed' the FAPL's 'Fit and Proper Persons' test, then the grounds for an appeal look reasonable at the very least.

 

In eighteen & half thousand posts, this is quite possibly one of the funniest things I have seen posted.

 

Mero, are you genuinely trying to say that Storrie could not be categorised as a 'normal business risk'? Four owners seem to think so!!!!