Pompey Takeover Saga

[Gingeletiss]

Say they sell a couple of players, would this then go some way in attempting to prove they are not insolvent to the HMRC?.

 

The directors must be extremely concerened being that they will be held liable and therefore face the consequences.

 

Would Tanya,whatever her name is,who used to be financial director be culpable now that she resigned that position and is now financial manager.

 

Not a dig, but My understanding (based on conversations with a Lawyer), is this whole Sof A, is for the now (Wednesday 1600hrs), not the future. Are they insolvent now, not will they be in two weeks time, or next season. The die have been thrown, all this is wriggle room, and Mr Storyteller, at his bullsh1tt1ng best.

[NickG]

Let me make a prediction here based on the above overnight stories of possible takeovers. The court will listen to the possibility of the insolvent club being saved by REAL investment prospects.

 

PFC say the buyers may need 28 days for due diligence which is not unreasonable from a purchasers point of view.

 

The court will look seriously at the evidence put forward. If the interest is genuine and documents to that fact lodged with the court before the hearing I am goint to punt on the club being given another 21 days to develop that REAL interest. My only caveat is that if they are so insolvent (ie FIFA refuse to let them sell assets) the court may wind them up there and then

 

The answer is for anyone wanting to undertake due diligence deposit a non returnable deposit not exceeding 1 month running costs so that period does not see a further deterioration in the insolvent position.

 

So it is takeover completed by 1st March, MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS or Wound up

 

Only thing is, after 4 owners and no payment, even if this takeover goes through - will the HMRC be confident that a new owner will pay? Guess no.

Will they be confident this deal will go through? Again guess no.

 

I am wondering whether the options will be;

1) wound up

 

2), most likely, given a deadline to pay and failure means automatic liquidation.

 

Although, arguing with myself, the comments of the judge that she did not want to allow them to trade and incur further debts hence short adjournment, if they are trading whilst insolvent how can she give them any more time at all?

[hypochondriac]

Agreed it's a shambles.

 

But IF it were to happen as you describe then I'm sure Hull would have been given chance to vote on the matter along with the other Prem clubs (-Pompey).

 

Their vote would have been noted and then in accordance with the PL rules on such extraordinary matters, the majority (whatever the ratio is) will win out.

 

I would imagine that hopefully it will have to be more than a majority and also the other clubs will insist on a points deduction guaranteeing their relegation.

[JackFrost]

Even if FIFA say yes this has to be agreed by the PL, does anyone know how many clubs it takes to push through a 'no' vote. Is it 5 or 6?

 

The BBC sports editor reckons the PL board could turn it down even if FIFA agree

[aintforever]

Could all this new owner nonsense just be to try and get the court to put the club into administration instead of liquidation?

 

From what I understand (not alot) administration is more likely if the court thinks a buyer can be found.

[JackFrost]

I would imagine that hopefully it will have to be more than a majority and also the other clubs will insist on a points deduction guaranteeing their relegation.

 

which could well be the telling factor that stops this request

[badgerx16]

You may find these links of use:

 

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/company-rescue/guides/trading_whilst_insolvent_guide.aspx

 

http://www.companyrescue.co.uk/company-rescue%5Cguides%5Cdirectors.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trading_while_insolvent_%28UK%29

Edited 19 February, 2010 by badgerx16

[beatlesaint]

does anyone know when the next tranche of Sky money is paid?

 

 

Its in 14 weeks time apparently.

[slickmick]

Presumably they will need to raise a fair chunk of the money owed to HMRC, plus enough to cover this month's wages, through sales in the next 10 days or else they aren't really any further forward.

 

Can anyone see £14M of sales?

 

Exactly, there is no way, who or how many they sell. It could be the middle of next week before this is given the green light and theres no way that money for wages and HMRC will be covered in time.

[Sour Mash]

The EPL will insist on a -9 penalty to ensure their relegation.

 

they're going down anyway, I don't see how this can be THAT much of a punishment.

[hypochondriac]

which could well be the telling factor that stops this request

 

I reckon it's pretty likely that they are going down. Perhaps if they lose to Stoke on Saturday then they will realise this and take the points deduction. Better that than see the club cease to exist surely?

[Um Bongo]

This is quite a good move.

 

I cannot see any other teams voting yes. Other teams fans are now ****ed off with Pompey, saying this is unfair. Pompey wont have a friend left.

 

I've got the popcorn ready, Could be the best ending yet!

[andysstuff]

Exactly, there is no way, who or how many they sell. It could be the middle of next week before this is given the green light and theres no way that money for wages and HMRC will be covered in time.

 

So it's dead in the water.

 

Just another smokescreen, like the request for next year's sky payments Monday, and the talk of new owners int he last couple of days.

 

Strikes me as a desparate bid to be seen to be doing something, without actally moving the situation forward to it's obvious conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Liquidation.

[hypochondriac]

they're going down anyway, I don't see how this can be THAT much of a punishment.

 

If they are OK in the CCC then it is unlikely that they will have much to spend once there. Admin will follow at some point I am sure. It's getting them out of the Prem which is the difficult part!

[rallyboy]

This is all about stalling for time until the next Sky money comes in - an appeal here, spin there, vague negotiations, due diligence, delay the case, next 48 hours, see what happens Friday.....

 

I would be astonished as I can't see how it could be possible in a fair competition but if PL grant a transfer period - Pompey would bring in £2-3M? but continue to strengthen their squad with a few more players magically 'freed' from their existing contracts elsewhere whacking their overheads up again.

The £2M will only go to the big two creditors or to pay clubs for these style of 'non-transfers' they are currently favouring, while the local builder/web provider can whistle and the taxman would be left stitched up awaiting the Sky cash.

 

And against the debts the amount raised by transfers would be like their first seven games - pointless.

 

If they were ever serious about trading legally or being accepted as a proper club rather than a bunch of criminals, they needed to clear the entire squad, the senior management needed to take pay cuts or to leave, give the players away, do deals to clear long contracts, and play on with a youth squad (shexy football!).

That would galvanise the support, they would still go down, but there would be some pride and honesty.

But to quibble over £100K on a £3M deal that also reduces your wage bill when you can't find £35 to pay a local supplier? Insane and insulting.

 

They have abused every chance they have been granted, this will be no different, but the court will ignore the pr and deal with the historical information put before them.

 

 

 

The only answer is for some lunatic to put a HUGE amount of money on the table, no talk, just cash.

Nowt else works, tis the only way forward.

 

And if the new South African can help himself by suggesting there is a keen buyer, he can push the court to put them in administration rather than winding up, thus giving him a bargain pick over the rotting corpse next month.

 

 

Everyone has their own agenda.

But we worked that out between us six months ago.

[View From The Top]

they're going down anyway, I don't see how this can be THAT much of a punishment.

 

It would take away all hope.

[slickmick]

So it's dead in the water.

 

Just another smokescreen, like the request for next year's sky payments Monday, and the talk of new owners int he last couple of days.

 

Strikes me as a desparate bid to be seen to be doing something, without actally moving the situation forward to it's obvious conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Liquidation.

 

 

Peter Storyteller is on his hands and knees begging for stay of execution as we speak.

 

One thing is for sure, we are going to see massive changes made to the PL once this has concluded.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

It would take away all hope.

 

exactly, further demoralise the barstards

[St Marco]

Also have to remember going into admin means certain relegation. Which makes them even less attractive for a proper takeover. They will go into the CCC with the exact same problems.

The difference being this would of been dealt with long ago by the FL. Their heavy handed punishments are what tries to keep clubs from going too far into debt. In the PL it now seems they are not doing that, which is wrong.

 

At least Storrie has admitted that their only chance to survive is to sell players. Which concludes there are no people about to buy the club.

[Winchester Red]

Peter Storyteller is on his hands and knees begging for stay of execution as we speak.

 

One thing is for sure, we are going to see massive changes made to the PL once this has concluded.

 

I'd really like to believe this, but it won't happen.

 

They are 20 teams self-governing, and whilst that's the case the only law is self-interest. People seem to forget the the PL is just 20 teams, not an organisation like the FA, Christ knows why is called the FA Premier League because the FA and PL spend most of their time at logger heads anyway.

 

Only government intervention could make a change and FIFA won't allow that.

 

So that leaves....... F*** knows :confused:

 

It's like an unstoppable plague. Just going to get bigger and worse until it kills everything (in football anyway). Their massive earning and even more massive spending has created an irreversible situation until it all goes bang...

Edited 19 February, 2010 by Winchester Red

[JackFrost]

I reckon it's pretty likely that they are going down. Perhaps if they lose to Stoke on Saturday then they will realise this and take the points deduction. Better that than see the club cease to exist surely?

 

But this is something that storrie appears to be deluding himself from. He's gone on record believing the club can still stay up, and it has puzzled many people as to why they haven't gone into administration already

[Panda]

"Chester City are facing expulsion from the Football Conference after pleading guilty to five breaches of its rules."

 

If it only takes FIVE breaches of the rules to be expelled from the Conference, how many does it take to get expelled from the Prem? The hypocracy of the football authorities stinks.

[Saint Keith]

just wanted to clarify one thing about the wuo, to cut through the bull**** that storrie will inevitably come out with

 

once the judge has granted the wuo, there is no right of appeal. a liquidator is appointed immediately, and from that point, the directors cease to become directors or officers of the company

 

we will probably hear storrie on the steps of the high court "we will appeal, we are confident an appeal will be successful" etc etc.

 

Its all bull****. there is no appeal. once a judge grants a winding up order, thats it, game over, finito

[Matthew Le God]

The hypocracy of the football authorities stinks.

 

How? When the Conference and Premiership are ruled by completely different governing bodies!

[ART]

If the Premiership go ahead and allow them to raise money, it will be an absolute disgrace. However I have a excellent proposal to all other Premiership clubs on the pay back should it be approved.

 

1) Pompey to be relegated no matter, and all points gained this season confiscated.

 

2) All clubs in the Premiership are to be awarded 6 additional points for games either played or to be played. ( or the points gained be deducted accordingly on any games already played against the Skates.)

 

3) Requirement on satisfying the Premiership by the 31st of March on their future financial solvency and ability to operate next season in the Football League.

 

It must hit hard, very, very hard should they be assisted to stay alive.

 

It was the other clubs that effectively punished Leeds by a collective vote, despite the rules not being in place prior to their Administration.

 

Let's face it, the powers that be in Football bend and twist the rules to fit whoever crosses their palms with silver. Money talks and in football today this is the only consideration.

[pedg]

I hate arguments like this one off the BBC page:

 

"The argument put to Fifa would say it's the integrity of the competition at stake here - if Portsmouth go under all their points would be cancelled and the league table would be falsely affected," said Ferquhar

That's like saying those caught cheating with drugs in athletics should keep their medals because otherwise the results would be falsely affected.

 

Sooner they realise that keeping pompey in the tables is more falsely affecting the table than having them removed the better (not that I hold out much hope).

[Gorgiesaint]

"Chester City are facing expulsion from the Football Conference after pleading guilty to five breaches of its rules."

 

If it only takes FIVE breaches of the rules to be expelled from the Conference, how many does it take to get expelled from the Prem? The hypocracy of the football authorities stinks.

 

To be fair - they have failed to play two of their matches. But I do agree with your sentiment. I'm not sure there is anything that a club can do to get expelled from the PL as the leagues 'integrity' is the most important thing. The irony of this is obviously lost on the PL bigwigs.

[JackFrost]

How much do the PL clubs receive from Sky?

[The9]

Frankly the only decision the PL should be making at this point "to preserve the integrity of their competition" is to expel the Skates from their League. They're not going to do that, and the FIFA thing is a smokescreen for PR purposes, unless what they're actually requesting is the right to waive registration rules.

 

I still can't see FIFA waiving those, or the Premier League voting to bail them out. For every West Ham who'd lose 6 points from the loss of the Skates there's a relegation rival who would be marginally better off for there only being 2 relegation places.

 

To be honest, if they go ahead with this totally unfair and preposterous charade I'll probably never watch a Premier League game again, even if we win the CCC in the next few years.

 

It will of course hasten the rush to the closed-shop of self-interest that the owners are so desperate for - when the only REAL solution is joint ownership WITH SHARED REVENUES. And they'll never agree to that.

 

Hi btw, first post on this thread .

[Panda]

How? When the Conference and Premiership are ruled by completely different governing bodies!

 

I am well aware of that! However, as we have seen, there is no consistency, there is one rule for some, other rules for others and some where they make up the rules as they go along. Sometimes they are heavy handed and then other times bend the rules ever so slightly when it suits. I guess that is why we have at least three governing bodies, each has derived from dissatisfaction with the other. Some big clubs did not like the FL so joined up with the FA to form the Prem and then they didn't like the FA Prem so set up alone. At the bottom of the structure where it hardest to survive we kick people when they are down, at the top when rules are broken we can over look it if it suits our agenda. There many examples of hypocracy, one rule for some and other rules for others, even within the same administrative structure. Money corrupts and it has certainly corrupted football, especially the Prem.

[Delmary]

http://www.championshipmanager.co.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.1594

[toofarnorth]

To be fair - they have failed to play two of their matches. But I do agree with your sentiment. I'm not sure there is anything that a club can do to get expelled from the PL as the leagues 'integrity' is the most important thing. The irony of this is obviously lost on the PL bigwigs.

 

If only the pompey players weren't so stupidly rich from years of inflated wages then maybe they'd go on strike too.

[Elmore]

Even as a Saints fan, I probably don't really want to see them completely dissappear but if this is allowed to happen it will be an absolute outrage.

 

The rest of us can operate within the rules, why can't they FFS.

 

I'm not opposed to this if it keeps them going to the end of the season, but it should go hand in hand with a substantial points deduction and an automatic win for Birmingham in the cup as they have only amassed the points they have and their progress in the cup with players they could not afford.

[Pancake]

How? When the Conference and Premiership are ruled by completely different governing bodies!

 

Wrong. The FA is the governing body of all Association Football in England.

[OldNick]

If it gets to the courts Pompey will be seen as trading whilst being insovent and so the PL will not have a team to fulfill those games. If they pay the revenue then the PL will have a team to finish the games. I suspect the Pl will give the option on the vote that they will help Pompey but give them a 9point pealty. That will appease the other clubs around them and also keep the fixtures played. As soon as Pomey have been relegated then the knives will be out in the summer. This to me seems as iof it will run and run, much to our frustration. No club will have the b#### to stand up and say anything.

I assume that the courts will not get a chance to say whether they are tradin whilst insovent

[Delmary]

Interesting debate on 606:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A63481016

 

If the club were allowed to sell their half-decent players they would be left with an even worse team than they played the first half of the season - this would give an advantage to teams yet to play them... Whereas, when Gordon Ferquhar said "if Portsmouth go under all their points would be cancelled and the league table would be falsely affected", he has failed to back that up with any logic - surely if all points were cancelled then everyone gets zero - and this is totally fair.

 

It happens in many other leagues at lower levels, and other sports - because it's 'fair'.

 

Ask anyone that has played FA grass roots football and they'll confirm that if a team drops out the points are cancelled for all.

[Gingeletiss]

http://www.championshipmanager.co.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.1594

 

Arse an all, are in need of a goalkeeper and striker, Liverpool in desperate need of a striker, Man City need to buy players in all positions;)...so if the PL via the FA via FIFA, allow Poor smouth to trade, they will have to allow all to trade. If not....BOOM!!!!!!! the sh1te will well and truly hit the fan.

[SO16_Saint]

so does anyone know whether the judge will make his decision reference the WUO today or not?

[JackFrost]

Brian Laws and "a number of PL managers" are against the idea

 

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11708_5959361,00.html

[pedg]

so does anyone know whether the judge will make his decision reference the WUO today or not?

 

Short answer: Not today for the judge.

 

Longer Answer: As I understand it HMRC should say today before 4pm if they will abandon the WUO order because of the information in the SoA. The judge will not rule till the 1st.

[NickG]

says 100% of prem league would be against it!

[Pancake]

Ask anyone that has played FA grass roots football and they'll confirm that if a team drops out the points are cancelled for all.

 

Very true.

[Foxstone]

Interesting debate on 606:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A63481016

 

If the club were allowed to sell their half-decent players they would be left with an even worse team than they played the first half of the season - this would give an advantage to teams yet to play them... Whereas, when Gordon Ferquhar said "if Portsmouth go under all their points would be cancelled and the league table would be falsely affected", he has failed to back that up with any logic - surely if all points were cancelled then everyone gets zero - and this is totally fair.

 

It happens in many other leagues at lower levels, and other sports - because it's 'fair'.

 

Ask anyone that has played FA grass roots football and they'll confirm that if a team drops out the points are cancelled for all.

 

As indeed happened to Excelsior Mouscron already this season in the Belgian top flight!

All records expunged after their liquidation and the league goes on.

 

No its only to do with saving face in the eyes of world football, but given the high profile of this shambles the face has already drooped !

[Katalinic]

http://www.fansonline.net/portsmouth/mb/view.php?id=238324

 

An interesting post on one of their boards. It is speculation...of course....but interesting.

[pedg]

I think the other thing that the PL should consider is that by letting pompey continue till the end of the season then they are likely to be front page news for almost the whole time till then. Every week at the moment there is an embarrassing story (or 3) about pompey going round the globe and maybe they should balance out that long term drip feed of bad publicity against a short sharp solution now.

[Winchester Red]

Actually, the answer has just become blindingly clear

 

Portsmouth are obliged to fulfil their fixtures, but have run themselves in a way which makes them unable too.

 

The answer is the following: -

 

1) Instant expulsion from the league (goodbye to the currupt owners in one easy action)

2) The PL issues a statement reminding teams of their obligations to the League, their supporters and game in general. They maintain the moral high ground and look as though they're doing the right thing. They could even put a proportion of PFC's parachute money into a trust to help reform a new PFC (even more good PR)

3) The PL states than any other club threatening legal 'stupidities' because they got 6 points against PFC that they're now going to lose can sue PFC directly if they choose because PFC failed in their obligations

4) The league table is just as meaningful with 19, 20 or 21 teams

 

The rest of their parachute money could go on refunding all 19 clubs season ticket holders for 1/19 of their season ticket for the 1 game they won't see

 

Simple.....isn't it?.....

Edited 19 February, 2010 by Winchester Red

[Gingeletiss]

http://www.fansonline.net/portsmouth/mb/view.php?id=238324

 

An interesting post on one of their boards. It is speculation...of course....but interesting.

 

 

As below................

 

 

 

HMRC want the club wound up NOW because their exposure is worsening as each day passes and because they are no longer qualified as a preferential creditor but must rank pari passu (on equal footing) alongside all other unsecured creditors.

 

I believe the only way around this is if the PL were to deposit the Sky parachute cash into an "Escrow account" for them until the payment becomes due to PFC and other Prem league clubs simultaneously. However, such escrow would HAVE to have the written agreement of the other creditors otherwise it could be overturned by a court that determined HMRC was being given preferential treatment over other creditors because, without new investment, subsequent administration now is inevitable.

 

So, you might ask, why aren't we put into administration now? Well here I think we need to understand the power of HMRC. If they can prove we've been trading while insolvent, which shouldn't be too difficult, then the DIRECTORS become PERSONALLY liable specifically for the PAYE portion and HMRC can pursue them for recovery.

 

Therefore, we now have the logic for trying to open up our ability to sell players outside the transfer window. If the directors have this route open they could use this to argue that we are NOT insolvent.

 

Meanwhile, Tanya having resigned her directorship within the 6 month prior to our final demise will almost certainly be personally exposed as well as Al Fahim who is now contemplating his own resignation. This stated, HMRC usually only go after the deep pockets and they would consider Tanya "a woman of straw" and NOT pursue her. However, they'll realise she could help their case against Storrie et al and they'll put the squeeze on her for sure.

[pedg]

As below................

 

 

 

HMRC want the club wound up NOW because their exposure is worsening as each day passes and because they are no longer qualified as a preferential creditor but must rank pari passu (on equal footing) alongside all other unsecured creditors.

 

I believe the only way around this is if the PL were to deposit the Sky parachute cash into an "Escrow account" for them until the payment becomes due to PFC and other Prem league clubs simultaneously. However, such escrow would HAVE to have the written agreement of the other creditors otherwise it could be overturned by a court that determined HMRC was being given preferential treatment over other creditors because, without new investment, subsequent administration now is inevitable.

 

So, you might ask, why aren't we put into administration now? Well here I think we need to understand the power of HMRC. If they can prove we've been trading while insolvent, which shouldn't be too difficult, then the DIRECTORS become PERSONALLY liable specifically for the PAYE portion and HMRC can pursue them for recovery.

 

Therefore, we now have the logic for trying to open up our ability to sell players outside the transfer window. If the directors have this route open they could use this to argue that we are NOT insolvent.

 

Meanwhile, Tanya having resigned her directorship within the 6 month prior to our final demise will almost certainly be personally exposed as well as Al Fahim who is now contemplating his own resignation. This stated, HMRC usually only go after the deep pockets and they would consider Tanya "a woman of straw" and NOT pursue her. However, they'll realise she could help their case against Storrie et al and they'll put the squeeze on her for sure.

 

Think the third comment is also of interest...

 

I have heard from a normally reliable source that certain people connected with this club who are going through tax court proceedings are in deep trouble.

 

Allegedly they were taking cuts of almost every transfer deal done & ongoing wage payments as well.

 

HMRC have the details but cannot prove these were other than 'gifts.' Therefore, the lack of tax paid on these 'gifts' is the only chargeable offence likely to stick.

 

So rather than being a small charge of forgetting to pay a small amount of tax - it is a lot more serious.

 

As said this is only speculation and is not proved or my opinion, but does come from creditable viewpoint

[hutch]

so does anyone know whether the judge will make his decision reference the WUO today or not?

Not.

[Gorgiesaint]

http://www.fansonline.net/portsmouth/mb/view.php?id=238324

 

An interesting post on one of their boards. It is speculation...of course....but interesting.

 

If its correct, and it cetainly seems to make sense, then it would explain why the HMRC are so keen to liquidate rather than allow administration. Just makes me want the HMRC to win the WUO even more, its the only way that justice will be done against the likes of Storrie.