Matthew Le God Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 (edited) How can they justify this...? Should be youth players and development squad players, not a "very competitive budget for League One". This money for a "competitive budget" Mr Brown talks of should be going to the creditors! The PST still don't "get it". Edited 2 August, 2012 by Matthew Le God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Alternately: Chinney will cut & run once he's milked the PPs leaving the PST up a creek sans paddle & more empty seats than LOCOG Up a creek sans paddle? They were washed back out to sea sans boat a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/tickets/season-tickets.aspx According to this they'd sold 4,000. No date on that article but I believe it was released about mid/end of July. First season back in the Championship 9,200 were sold, and that reduced to about 8,000 last season. So I'd also be very surprised if they sold 8,000 being a division lower. What with being rooted to the foot of League 1 for at least the first 4 or 5 games (and that's being generous), I predict their average home ticket sales will no more than 9.5-10k next season. Understand Pompey season tickets are on sale at an average of around £200 So IF 8,000 have been sold this provides a £1.6m revenue pot Our season tickets average around £600 so the equivalent revenue is 3 times as much Also Bradford city have consistently sold 10,000 or so season tickets at around the same price as Pompey's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Also Bradford city have consistently sold 10,000 or so season tickets at around the same price as Pompey's In the bottom half of League Two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Have to say 3000 pledges is excellent (anything above 1000 is good imo), far better than I'd have expected. Thought GM said it was only £700k? Excuse my maths (bottle of red well dented whilst playing catch up on here!!) ........ but the demented 3000 probably think that they only have to pay 40p, not a 1000 quid each, (or is it 20p as per CVA2) as is the normal (non)payment schedule in that part of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 can't believe they spent months coming up with that load of eyewash and the way they were carrying on, it was like watching a bunch of all-day drinkers sat in a wetherspoons talking a load of rambling arse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 can't believe they spent months coming up with that load of eyewash and the way they were carrying on, it was like watching a bunch of all-day drinkers sat in a wetherspoons talking a load of rambling arse :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvaughanwilliams Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Your forgetting the £14m odd worth of parachute payment we are technically due. We alread have in escrow £1.6m (season ticket sales 8,000 @ £200 average) £1m from 4 HNW individuals £2m from from pledges (I assume 33% reduction due to gameplaying or no money now) £1.45m bridging loan from council. Total £20.05m Known Expenditure Chainrai £2.75m Loan payback £1.8m (working on the basis we will pay interest) Players £2m Staff £0.85m Expected Wage Budget for 2012/13 £4m Transfer Budget £0.5m (to pay for player loans primarily) Total £11.9m Delta £8.15m Extras to be paid, transfer fees, non playing staff Extra income sponsorship, crowds above 8k, shirt sponsorship Rough breakdown So, let's imagine that your figures are accurate (I don't think they are). You propose to spunk one-off payments such as pledges and Parachute payments in the first season. What happens in season 2? Admin again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 So, let's imagine that your figures are accurate (I don't think they are). You propose to spunk one-off payments such as pledges and Parachute payments in the first season. What happens in season 2? Admin again? Presumably they're gambling everything - again - that they'll bounce straight back up the league(s) with their unaffordable overpaid team - wait - isn't there a pattern here ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 A loan from a council already facing a deficit to a company with a shockingly bad credit rating is by no means guaranteed. I do so like British understatement, although down The Gordon Arms or similar they'd probably say "no ****ing chance"... As for the £4million wage bill: you're in financial trouble for goodness sake! Overpaying is how you got into it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 FFS these ****s from Portsmouth never let the facts get in the way of their stupidity. 1) Southampton FC were never in administration so all debts were paid in full. 2) The £7m paid to Aviva was the ****ing asking price given to Mark Fry by Aviva in the first week of the SLH administration. He quoted it to me in the first week along with the remark 'there will be change out of £15m for everything'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Thomas Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Any idea how far POL's crackdown has gone? I just popped over to read their take on the trust's rambling and found I'd got banned. Given I had a sum total of zero posts to my name, I'm quite impressed that they caught me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 So it'll be interesting to see if the FL are happy with this proposed £4m wage bill fresh out of admin having stated some sort of financial restrictions. From a moral point of view, £0.5m for the creditors and £2m above the league one average is quite sickening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Any idea how far POL's crackdown has gone? I just popped over to read their take on the trust's rambling and found I'd got banned. Given I had a sum total of zero posts to my name, I'm quite impressed that they caught me! Reckon your name might have been a giveaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danish Saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Presumably they're gambling everything - again - that they'll bounce straight back up the league(s) with their unaffordable overpaid team - wait - isn't there a pattern here ... Isn't the definition of insanity something along the lines of doing the same thing again and again, but expecting a different result each time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RingySFC Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 From one of the Skates site.Anyone what to add thier answers to Appy's question??? Appy Pompeii Isn't it a little worrying that the Trust need a loan and get into debt straight away ? I STILL CAN'T BELIEVE THERE HAS BEEN NO OTHER INTEREST IN OUR CLUB ! Why hasn't there been ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 (edited) Your forgetting the £14m odd worth of parachute payment we are technically due. We alread have in escrow £1.6m (season ticket sales 8,000 @ £200 average) £1m from 4 HNW individuals £2m from from pledges (I assume 33% reduction due to gameplaying or no money now) £1.45m bridging loan from council. Total £20.05m Known Expenditure Chainrai £2.75m Loan payback £1.8m (working on the basis we will pay interest) Players £2m Staff £0.85m Expected Wage Budget for 2012/13 £4m Transfer Budget £0.5m (to pay for player loans primarily) Total £11.9m Delta £8.15m Extras to be paid, transfer fees, non playing staff Extra income sponsorship, crowds above 8k, shirt sponsorship Rough breakdown Also, don't forget the good old deferrals - conservatively 30 weeks of 12 X £12,000 week is £4million plus over 4 years, which means £1million/season has to be found just to pay off the deferred wages, never mind any others deals done with the high earners. How is it these Skates always overlook the little financial details? Edited 2 August, 2012 by sidthesquid spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiesaint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 So it'll be interesting to see if the FL are happy with this proposed £4m wage bill fresh out of admin having stated some sort of financial restrictions. From a moral point of view, £0.5m for the creditors and £2m above the league one average is quite sickening. Other than FMPR, has anyone in with the trust (which FMPR isn't to my knowledge) actually said or even indicated that they'll have a near £4m budget for wages for players? Let's not read too much into the situation too early. Hopefully the council have valued Krap Nottarf at £2m so the trust already need to find another £750k even if the council agree to lend & Chinny agrees to sell - that puts a massive hole in the budget, as would renting the tip if Chinny refuses to sell. That's not to mention Kanu's £3m claim, with lawrence & Kitson still on the books. Still lots of work to be done & I can see another administration looming over the horizon even with a much smaller budget for wages of £4m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Munster Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Stick to your guns, TBH..... Not likely, I'm afraid. Handy Andy and some of his friends paid him a visit last night, and I hear he is now very close to agreeing to a "compromise". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack rill Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 A Old Nicky boy, can we put the toaster away now? looks like we're gonna need a bit more space on the work top:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Have your name on a plaque with Pompey Legends!!! They still can't seem to make up their minds whether Kanu et al. are 'tainted memories' or LEGENDS: http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/walloffame/index.htm WALL OF SHAME Fans & Legends Together Forever Pompey We're building a new landmark at Fratton Park; the Wall Of Fame. Made up of panels of personalised engraved stones within the Fratton End, North and South stands, it will be a place where you and your loved ones will be side by side with the legends. With a choice of blue or white, this is your chance to buy one of the stones and to personalise it with your own name and message. A perfect gift for your Pompey supporting friends and family or a treat for yourself, the stones will celebrate your love for Pompey. Play Up Pompey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Lightjaw Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 some interesting tweets and a thread on the conference forums. likely to be rubbish, but I enjoy reading them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 some interesting tweets and a thread on the conference forums. likely to be rubbish, but I enjoy reading them Not possible due to rule 6.3 and others found here... http://www.footballconference.co.uk/rules.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Is it fame or infamy, this wall, it changes every week? [For our older readers "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me" seems quite appropriate for Pompey fans..] My onw wording would probably be Tal Ben Haim Saints Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Is it fame or infamy, this wall, it changes every week? [For our older readers "Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me" seems quite appropriate for Pompey fans..] My onw wording would probably be Tal Ben Haim Saints Legend You maybe on your own regarding himas a SAINTS legend, but if he doesn't bow down to the bullying and threats from all things Skatesmuff then he certainly deserves Nutjob Legend Status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmore Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 1. If I had an inkling on the value I would have put it down but I dont 2. Yea it would be the ethical, moral and right thing to do. But as that world generally doesnt exist I suspect we and others will pass. For example with Clyne you did not pay what Palace wanted and agreed a compromise. That is what one failed CVA and another one has done. Not right I know but its happened. Your club is disgusting and you know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 How can they justify this...? Should be youth players and development squad players, not a "very competitive budget for League One". This money for a "competitive budget" Mr Brown talks of should be going to the creditors! The PST still don't "get it". fuk me, they are still going to spend competitive money....what a disgusting club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 fuk me, they are still going to spend competitive money....what a disgusting club. 'The leopard doesn't shange its shorts, my lad' (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 'The leopard doesn't shange its shorts, my lad' (Terry Pratchett) I am just stunned at what I just listened to. its just the same disgusting path just a different year.....incredible...I bet they are in admin again within 3 years IF the PST take over....they seriously do not have the funds to mount a promotion push Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Assumming that is correct (I happen to think it it incredibly optomistic) I am sure Lawrence, TBH, Kitson and Kanu (Noted you have made any allowance for him) Will be delighted to hear there is an 8 million pound pot floating about. Paying off the low cost creditors ie 2000 quid and below, plus charities, schools and St Johns Ambulance from CVA 1 at CVA 1 rates from the "spare" (LOL) 8 million would be a start to rehabilitation into earning some form of respect from the rest of the sporting community. Menwhile Salary Budget of 4 million - I'd love to see other L1 budgets. I know ours was probably high but we actually had finances to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Thomas Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Reckon your name might have been a giveaway Got a few more brain cells than that, was just my initials over there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmore Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Your forgetting the £14m odd worth of parachute payment we are technically due. We alread have in escrow £1.6m (season ticket sales 8,000 @ £200 average) £1m from 4 HNW individuals £2m from from pledges (I assume 33% reduction due to gameplaying or no money now) £1.45m bridging loan from council. Total £20.05m Known Expenditure Chainrai £2.75m Loan payback £1.8m (working on the basis we will pay interest) Players £2m Staff £0.85m Expected Wage Budget for 2012/13 £4m Transfer Budget £0.5m (to pay for player loans primarily) Total £11.9m Delta £8.15m Extras to be paid, transfer fees, non playing staff Extra income sponsorship, crowds above 8k, shirt sponsorship Rough breakdown Hope you are planning to pay your tax bills this time. Remember they are not supposed to be optional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Got a few more brain cells than that, was just my initials over there! Dunno if they can lookup your IP address & see its from a non-PO postcode? They may not be that crude of course, but I'd be *surprised* if they have many takers in, say, SO postcode areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Hope you are planning to pay your tax bills this time. Remember they are not supposed to be optional. I did have a big ROFL moment at the Heading "Known Expenditure". Tax - WTF is that? CVA's and promises to pay off charities that we stole from and creditors with less than 2000 quid owed - Will check that later (cross my heart and hope to die) (but null and void as I didn't actually cross my heart) Deferred Salary payments of the famous 8 - stay deferred presumably. Clearing Fat from waterpipes and hot water in ladies tiolets plus functioning clock - no need - our move to The Habourdome is imminent FFS. etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 So after this masterful business plan is put into operation, will Gaydamak still own the car park? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Dunno if they can lookup your IP address & see its from a non-PO postcode? They may not be that crude of course, but I'd be *surprised* if they have many takers in, say, SO postcode areas Yes they can and they do do that. Probably haven't twigged that there are Portsmouth supporters who live in Southampton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 I am just stunned at what I just listened to. its just the same disgusting path just a different year.....incredible...I bet they are in admin again within 3 years IF the PST take over....they seriously do not have the funds to mount a promotion push It's pathetic. What is wrong with saying "we will have one of the lowest wage bills until our legacy issues are sorted out. It may mean we get a lower class of player than some teams in the division but we feel that the club is a big one for league one and so will be able to attract players anyway. In a few years if we can build sensibly and only spend what we have and what we can make from transfer dealings, then we may be in a position to push on and go for promotion." If they had said something like that then I would respect their bid and that they are trying to start afresh. What they came out with was an utter disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Dunno if they can lookup your IP address & see its from a non-PO postcode? They may not be that crude of course, but I'd be *surprised* if they have many takers in, say, SO postcode areas They really should stay off the wacky backy if they are that paranoid FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 got a few more brain cells than that, was just my initials over there! sfc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 So after this masterful business plan is put into operation, will Gaydamak still own the car park? I thought his company that owned those had gone into admin and they were trying to sell the land. Maybe the council will spare the trust a bit more to buy that as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Got a few more brain cells than that, was just my initials over there! Pretty sure St is an abbreviation for something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 It's pathetic. What is wrong with saying "we will have one of the lowest wage bills until our legacy issues are sorted out. It may mean we get a lower class of player than some teams in the division but we feel that the club is a big one for league one and so will be able to attract players anyway. In a few years if we can build sensibly and only spend what we have and what we can make from transfer dealings, then we may be in a position to push on and go for promotion." If they had said something like that then I would respect their bid and that they are trying to start afresh. What they came out with was an utter disgrace. I may be in a minority here, but I don't think what he's said is too bad. The CVA has already been agreed; creditors have agreed to 2p in the pound. Yes, that's of course a disgracefully low amount, but they agreed to that with Portpin's bid, so the Trust have matched that. Once the CVA is agreed (and paid) then, rightly or wrongly, the club start from a clean slate. And the fact is that, even with their sh*te attendances, they'll still be one of the bigger clubs in the division, so can pay higher than average wages. The biggest disgrace in all this has been only docking 10 points for a failed CVA. Its an absolutely scandalously low points total to dock, especially in comparison to other clubs who have had a similar fate. If they do survive and don't get relegated it will still feel a bit like've got away with it. Still, that's a long way from happening yet, so fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 I may be in a minority here, but I don't think what he's said is too bad. The CVA has already been agreed; creditors have agreed to 2p in the pound. Yes, that's of course a disgracefully low amount, but they agreed to that with Portpin's bid, so the Trust have matched that. Once the CVA is agreed (and paid) then, rightly or wrongly, the club start from a clean slate. And the fact is that, even with their sh*te attendances, they'll still be one of the bigger clubs in the division, so can pay higher than average wages. The biggest disgrace in all this has been only docking 10 points for a failed CVA. Its an absolutely scandalously low points total to dock, especially in comparison to other clubs who have had a similar fate. If they do survive and don't get relegated it will still feel a bit like've got away with it. Still, that's a long way from happening yet, so fingers crossed. Yeah good point. It just feels like such an injustice to talk about paying decent wages after everything that has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Mr Fanshawe said today there is £1M in escrow. I was also surprised when the bloke on the top table announced that 'it's difficult getting people to pay £1000, which they will never see again' More cash into a black hole? No real benefit for coughing up cash? the following analysis is for hardcore nutjobs only so if you struggle with concentration, or fear talking to girls, rather than reading on you might be better off playing computer games or watching tennis ...... Their plans seem to involve spreading ALL debt longterm, so let's budget for three seasons. They want to spend £2.75M on the ground, plus maybe £500K keeping it legal and full of fat - all well and good if Chinny wants to write off £15M knowing that there is still £11M out there somewhere. The council will want maybe £300K in interest on that one year loan - even though they confirmed that they don't do loans of that sort. Players have to agree £2M - which they won't. Transfer payments still due I would estimate at £3M to tie up with Birch claims re PPs. Deferred wages deals already agreed that need servicing - £2M? Let's say the ruling, when it comes, gives Kanu £1M. CVA £850K. Wagebill, to cover all staff and loan fees - £4M x 3? Utilities, overheads and travel etc for three years - £3M? Tax and NI - £1.5M. That's approx £9M a season. Let's assume the Trust put ALL problems aside and take control, the fans are happy and come back in some number, maybe they could sell 7,000 season tickets and have 12k gates? With that, plus TV and sponsors, they could have an income of maybe £7M a year? Income = £21M + £11M in PP + £3M in pledges (their claimed figures today) This dream scenario where all people take a massive hit gives them a profit. But 6000 season tickets and 10K gates will put them firmly in the red and trading insolvently. So as long as players are happy to give their PP money to the club, and the fans half-pack the park, they will be fine. What could go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Yeah good point. It just feels like such an injustice to talk about paying decent wages after everything that has happened. Its probably because its a feeling of injustice, they've got away with so much previously (and still whine about how unfair it all is) that we all want them to get their just desserts. I'd like nothing more than to see them on a tiny budget; but they won't be the first team who pay a pittance on a CVA (Crystal Palace recently paid 1p in the pound and didn't even get relegated). It just highlights (yet again) for me that the rules for clubs going into administration just aren't tough enough. If there was a Rangers-esque outcome every time then a hell of a lot of clubs would surely be less likely to overspend so far beyond their means. 10 points is really nothing for turning £130M into £500,000, plus whatever CVA 2 was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Is there a link to the PST proposal brochure? I may have missed it. Or is there a PDF available to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Reading this thread and the comments I have this image stuck in my mind of the PST "Board Meetings" You older posters will know exactly what I mean when I say... PST - just think of Citizen Smith & the Tooting Liberation Front. Power to the People. I bet one of the geniuses that came up with this plan wears a cardigan, smokes a Pipe, has a beard and wears Brown Suede Hush Puppies as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Yes they can and they do do that. Probably haven't twigged that there are Portsmouth supporters who live in Southampton. How would they cope with my FY post code ? Or even better, maybe we could get Dubai Phil, EofA, Tokyo Saint, and Ohio acting as agents provocateurs, ( if they aren't already ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Thomas Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Dunno if they can lookup your IP address & see its from a non-PO postcode? They may not be that crude of course, but I'd be *surprised* if they have many takers in, say, SO postcode areas Doubt it, I'm a Londoner who travels down for the matches, I'm sure the bestest can't all come from PO, I thought they had the most fans in the country? Reckon they've got paranoid enough to start spying on everyone who signs up? Oh well, seems strange to limit your own message board quite that much, but guess it's up to them how draconian to be. Or maybe I shouldn't use that word, a mod there probably had his ancestors killed by Draco of Athens and will need to go have a lie down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 2 August, 2012 Share Posted 2 August, 2012 Doubt it, I'm a Londoner who travels down for the matches, I'm sure the bestest can't all come from PO, I thought they had the most fans in the country? Reckon they've got paranoid enough to start spying on everyone who signs up? Oh well, seems strange to limit your own message board quite that much, but guess it's up to them how draconian to be. Or maybe I shouldn't use that word, a mod there probably had his ancestors killed by Draco of Athens and will need to go have a lie down. They do. The owner of the site has talked about it on a number of ocassions. It's why they just banned the laughing man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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