Pompey Takeover Saga

[pedg]

The pompey case has made it clear there is a loophole whereby the votes of creditors to accept a certain level of a CVA can be got round by going into admin again before any payments and relying on the the fact that the company in charge of the first CVA effectively have to accept whatever they are offered. I would not put it past the league to make up a new rule to make sure this is covered (something like, the golden share can only be retained on administration as long as any CVA from a previous administration have been paid in full). Question is would they apply retrospective punishment?

 

Also interesting that the situation with one CVA payments being included as debt in another is not something that is limited to football clubs so I assume it has happened before in normal companies? You would have thought it is something that should be legislated against as with normal companies there is not the points deductions that at least provide some punishment for football clubs on administration.

[Truckasaurus]

I imagine the statue will end up looking something like this. To really bring the essence of the fans

 

 

Not enough fingers.

 

God bless "swipe season tickets"

[70's Mike]

of course the FA could step in , refuse PFC membership so the Football League could not include them in their competition.

Grounds would be bring the game in to dis repute by perpetual financial irregularities

[Weston Saint]

Is that not what the £20m+ PFA debt is for? If liquidated the PFA pay the players. So Ben Haim, Kanu etc may as well sit tight.

Can you show me where PFA will agree to continue to honour contracts including future payments? I thought it was only payments to date of liquidation.

[dronskisaint]

£30k wouldn't go that far for a statue, the original Ted Bates statue cost £112k and look how that turned out.

 

A figurine perhaps, an ornament...a gargoyle from a small church roof?

[hutch]

Is that not what the £20m+ PFA debt is for? If liquidated the PFA pay the players. So Ben Haim, Kanu etc may as well sit tight.

The PFA claim isn't £20m, it's £0. The £20m+ claim is described as Professional Football Players Claim

[Matthew Le God]

Can you show me where PFA will agree to continue to honour contracts including future payments? I thought it was only payments to date of liquidation.

 

The PFA claim isn't £20m, it's £0. The £20m+ claim is described as Professional Footballers Claim

 

"Professional Footballers’ Association, which is claiming £26 million for past and future payments."

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/true-blue-ian-to-be-voice-of-pompey-s-local-businesses-1-3810306

[trousers]

The players will agree a compromise pay off and leave. There will be more pressure put on them during the next 28 days but they will be aware that if PFC 2010 is liquidated they will no longer be a football creditor but unsecure creditors like everyone else other than Chainrai. There is no money if liquidation.

 

Forget the parachute payments if liquidation. The moment PFC 2010 cease to exist the payments cease to be due.

 

PFC will continue under Chainrai or the Trusts hands in Div 1. If it is Chainrai it will be under a CVA and no points deduction. If under the Trust it will be with Birch going to court to take away Chainrai’s charge and the new CVA vote will fail. PFC will carry on but with a points deduction

 

All in my opinion, of course.

 

Isn't the whole point of the parachute payment system to help clubs deal with the very situation Pompey now find themselves in?

 

i.e. to cushion the blow between lower league income versus higher league wages.

 

(ok, I know Pompey are an extreme example of this scenario but you get my drift...)

 

Ergo, how come the parachute payments aren't ring-fenced to pay off the players (as per the intention of said payments) rather than the club and administrator bleating on about how the players need to forego what they are due from this very same safety net?

 

I'm probably missing something simple here but for Pompey to effectively be saying: "We're not going to use the remaining parachute payments for the purposes for which they were designed" is surely breaking the Premier League's own terms and conditions of use?

 

Shirley?

Edited 25 June, 2012 by trousers

[hutch]

"Professional Footballers’ Association, which is claiming £26 million for past and future payments."

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/true-blue-ian-to-be-voice-of-pompey-s-local-businesses-1-3810306

Page 63 of TB's CVA proposal, which is probably more accurate than The News

[Weston Saint]

"Professional Footballers’ Association, which is claiming £26 million for past and future payments."

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/true-blue-ian-to-be-voice-of-pompey-s-local-businesses-1-3810306

Looks like you are relying too much on the PFA representing the players in an Administration senario as is. If liquidation that is a totally different situation.

[Danbert]

And where would it go? Can't see Gaydamak agreeing to this. Maybe it could go in the waste ground behind the Fratton End - that would be apt.

 

If famous Pompey fans are in the running to be "models" for the statue can I suggest the youngest female to ever receive an ASBO?

 

EDIT: Apologies, it was a boy. Aged 10. Nice

 

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/articles/football040604/

 

The youngest pompey female to receive an ASBO was a boy?

[Weston Saint]

Isn't the whole point of the parachute payment system to help clubs deal with the very situation Pompey now find themselves in?

 

i.e. to cushion the blow between lower league income versus higher league wages.

 

(ok, I know Pompey are an extreme example of this scenario but you get my drift...)

 

Ergo, how come the parachute payments aren't ring-fenced to pay off the players (as per the intention of said payments) rather than the club and administrator bleating on about how the players need to forego what they are due from this very same safety net?

 

I'm probably missing something simple here but for Pompey to effectively be saying: "We're not going to use the remaining parachute payments for the purposes for which they were designed" is surely breaking the Premier League's own terms and conditions of use?

 

Shirley?

Parachute payments are to assist the club and not limited to paying wages.

[Truckasaurus]

JUST WIND THE FU**ERS UP FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

 

YOU TREVOR BIRCH ARE A COMPLETE C**T. WHO IS BRIBEING YOU THEN ?

 

God bless swear words

[trousers]

Why did the PFA have a representative at the CVA meeting today?

[Weston Saint]

Why did the PFA have a representative at the CVA meeting today?

Representing their members.

[trousers]

Parachute payments are to assist the club and not limited to paying wages.

 

Agree, but I would venture the players wages are the largest most significant portion of running costs that the PPs were intended to cushion?

[trousers]

Representing their members.

 

Did they get a vote?

[Matthew Le God]

Can you show me where PFA will agree to continue to honour contracts including future payments? I thought it was only payments to date of liquidation.

 

"Professional Footballers’ Association, which is claiming £26 million for past and future payments."

 

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/true-blue-ian-to-be-voice-of-pompey-s-local-businesses-1-3810306

 

Page 63 of TB's CVA proposal, which is probably more accurate than The News

 

Looks like you are relying too much on the PFA representing the players in an Administration senario as is. If liquidation that is a totally different situation.

 

I'm confused then, because Portsmouth News sports reporter Neil Allen called me...

 

@pn_neil_allen: @MatthewLeGod Consistently and embarrassingly ill-informed. Goodbye!

 

Edited 25 June, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Weston Saint]

Did they get a vote?

Assume so, by proxy.

[trousers]

Assume so, by proxy.

 

Now I'm confused. The players got to vote on the CVA? (albeit via the PFA). I wonder which way they voted....?

[eurosaint]

Is it possible that Chanrai has 'ceded exclusivity' on the assumption that the Trust's bid will be dependent on them making an acceptable offer either for the ground or to compensate for his debt (or both!) ?

If this is the case then he is still firmly in the driving seat and under no obligation to accept or even negotiate if he so chooses !

Fair enough that TB gets the final say but if the trust cannot satisfy Chinny's demands, then the main creditor is shortchanged and that is not what the administrator is required to do !!

[trousers]

Is it possible that Chanrai has 'ceded exclusivity' on the assumption that the Trust's bid will be dependent on them making an acceptable offer either for the ground or to compensate for his debt (or both!) ?

If this is the case then he is still firmly in the driving seat and under no obligation to accept or even negotiate if he so chooses !

Fair enough that TB gets the final say but if the trust cannot satisfy Chinny's demands, then the main creditor is shortchanged and that is not what the administrator is required to do !!

 

Even IF the Trust manage to satisfy Birch that they have a viable CVA proposal, which Birch then convenes another meeting to vote on, doesn't Chainrai simply vote against it given he holds enough cards to sway the vote?

 

All seems a bit pointless to me.

 

Literally.

[Dark Munster]

Today wasn't a surprise. The thing they have failed to do over the past weeks, months and years (shift the hig wage earners) is still hanging around their neck like a pair of Thai hookers on Avram's nuts.

 

Unlile Kanu, this thread has legs.

 

 

A nice rallyboy impersonation in the aforementioned absense.

[trousers]

@TonyHusbandBBC: #pompey All the news and analysis of today's creditor's meeting. http://t.co/8l98gvk0

[pedg]

The PFA thing is quite confusing as they are mentioned in the document as stating they are owed 26 million but that is the one and only time in the document where its mentioned. One assumes the position is that TB refuses to accept it in which case they would only get to vote relating to the outstanding football debts owed to players which chinny is going to pay in full (allegedly).

[hutch]

I'm confused then, because Neil Allen called me...

 

@pn_neil_allen: @MatthewLeGod Consistently and embarrassingly ill-informed. Goodbye!

 

 

Should he be looking closer to home?

The CVA clearly lists the PFA claim as £0. There are 4 “Professional Football Players Claim Elements” listed totalling £26m, and these are referenced ”c/o PFA”, but that's not quite the same thing is it? I guess the PFA are acting as ”agents” on behalf of the players, rather than claiming themselves.

 

I'm not convinced the players won't get their money from the PP's if the club is liquidated. We've only got TB's word for that, AFAIK. The PL rules aren't clear on the issue, and I doubt they were written with this scenario in mind. It's never happened before. If the full value becomes due at the point of liquidation, then depending on who is liable to pay, they could get their money. The FL, for example, is defined as a football creditor in that situation. So, as I see it, if the FL have to cough up if they are liquidated, they could get the money back from the PP's.

 

As I say it hasn't come up before, but I doubt that the PL would redirect remaining PP's back to PL clubs while FL football creditors go unpaid.

[Gemmel]

The PFA thing is quite confusing as they are mentioned in the document as stating they are owed 26 million but that is the one and only time in the document where its mentioned. One assumes the position is that TB refuses to accept it in which case they would only get to vote relating to the outstanding football debts owed to players which chinny is going to pay in full (allegedly).

 

It's the one piece of "Fact" that is alluding us. ..... Will the PFA pay up the contracts?

 

There absolutely was an article in the News with the PFA representative claiming it would cost the PFA 16 million if pompey were liquidated. That article does not exsist any more.

[Winchester Red]

@TonyHusbandBBC: #pompey All the news and analysis of today's creditor's meeting. http://t.co/8l98gvk0

 

That report nicely ignores the key point.

 

The FL asked for the statement saying that there would be no points deductions be removed

 

The report (in the side comment) suggests that todays meeting makes it more likely there will be no points deductions

 

2 + 2 = 5

[Verbal Kint]

It's the one piece of "Fact" that is alluding us. ..... Will the PFA pay up the contracts?

 

There absolutely was an article in the News with the PFA representative claiming it would cost the PFA 16 million if pompey were liquidated. That article does not exsist any more.

 

From the CVA proposal:

 

"13

On appointment the playing staff had a net book value of £7.1m. Three players have been realised during the administration at an aggregate value of £1.6m.

These realisations have been included in the trading account for the administration. The transfer value of the remaining players is uncertain.

These assets will be excluded from a CVA. On a liquidation the playing contracts revert back to the League."

 

Last sentence says it all surely?

[hutch]

For half a million quid Chainrai gets the freehold of FP and 4 or 5 million from the PP's. What have the Trust got to offer him?

 

If the players won't walk, he gets the freehold on liquidation.

[Doctoroncall]

As corpy is visiting, I'll put up one of my posts that made him mad:

 

...and let's not forget they are not even servicing the CVA.

[trousers]

From the CVA proposal:

 

"13

On appointment the playing staff had a net book value of £7.1m. Three players have been realised during the administration at an aggregate value of £1.6m.

These realisations have been included in the trading account for the administration. The transfer value of the remaining players is uncertain.

These assets will be excluded from a CVA. On a liquidation the playing contracts revert back to the League."

 

Last sentence says it all surely?

 

When it says the playing contracts revert to the League, does that mean that they revert 'intact' or that they revert to some other default / lower contract value?

[trousers]

For half a million quid Chainrai gets the freehold of FP and 4 or 5 million from the PP's. What have the Trust got to offer him?

 

If the players won't walk, he gets the freehold on liquidation.

 

Is it feasible that the players and Chainrai could somehow be in 'collusion' here?

 

I.e. Chainrai would prefer liquidation but doesn't want to be seen to be the plug pulling villain. He therefore tells the players that he'll set them an 'ultimatum by media' which they should then ignore. The players play along, the 28 day deadline passes and Chainrai 'reluctantly' throws in the towel picking up the ground in the process. The players meanwhile fall into the Football League contract safety net and, after the liquidation dust has settled, move onto other clubs on free xfers. Over time, Chainrai gets permission to develop the land. Meanwhile, the trust have set up a Phoenix club free of Chainrai's influence.

 

Win, win, win?

 

Or far-fetched clap trap?

[Matthew Le God]

Is it feasible that the players and Chainrai could somehow be in 'collusion' here?

 

I.e. Chainrai would prefer liquidation but doesn't want to be seen to be the plug pulling villain.

 

Why would he care about being seen as the "villain"? He could pull the plug and never be seen in the UK again. At the moment he isn't making personal appearances in the city and is sending his brother to meetings in the UK.

[John D]

When it says the playing contracts revert to the League, does that mean that they revert 'intact' or that they revert to some other default / lower contract value?

 

Neither - it means the players registration reverts back to the League i.e. the liquidated club cannot claim it as an asset. The players can therefore sign for any other club without any fee due to the liquidated club as part of the asset sell off as they are no longer assets of the club.

 

In a liquidation scenario, the outstanding payments to players are treated as any other debt as our any remaining contractual payments they are due.

 

The PFA or football league or FA are under no obligation to make a payment to any payments

 

However they may chose to withhold the golden share to any shell of the club that remains as a punishment

[trousers]

Why would he care about being seen as the "villain"? He could pull the plug and never be seen in the UK again. At the moment he isn't making personal appearances in the city and is sending his brother to meetings in the UK.

 

Yeah, fair point....as you can probably tell, I've gone into straw clutching mode again!

[trousers]

Neither - it means the players registration reverts back to the League i.e. the liquidated club cannot claim it as an asset. The players can therefore sign for any other club without any fee due to the liquidated club as part of the asset sell off as they are no longer assets of the club.

 

In a liquidation scenario, the outstanding payments to players are treated as any other debt as our any remaining contractual payments they are due.

 

The PFA or football league or FA are under no obligation to make a payment to any payments

 

However they may chose to withhold the golden share to any shell of the club that remains as a punishment

 

Cheers for that clarification John

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17859429

 

PFA claim they are owed 26 million if they are liquidated.

 

That suggests that tehy will pay the contracts.

 

Now we know that that figure has come down as players have left and my guess is that the PL will divert the pp to cover the costs.

 

It's the only way they can protect their "Football Creditors" rule.

[pedg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17859429

 

PFA claim they are owed 26 million if they are liquidated.

 

That suggests that tehy will pay the contracts.

 

Now we know that that figure has come down as players have left and my guess is that the PL will divert the pp to cover the costs.

 

It's the only way they can protect their "Football Creditors" rule.

 

You wonder if the 26 million is just a speculative thing from the PFA so that if pompey are liquidated and there is some money left over to go to the unsecured creditors that their members might see some of it?

[Frank's cousin]

You wonder if the 26 million is just a speculative thing from the PFA so that if pompey are liquidated and there is some money left over to go to the unsecured creditors that their members might see some of it?

 

Dont think so, I suspect its the full value of paying off all the remaing player contracts should the club be liquidated - and I suspect this includes payments still due to payers from the last admin who have since left but are still owed - (including the remaining image right payments) - eg teh full cost of a golden share being granted to a pheonix club without a hideous points deduction...

[Gemmel]

You wonder if the 26 million is just a speculative thing from the PFA so that if pompey are liquidated and there is some money left over to go to the unsecured creditors that their members might see some of it?

 

It's a nice thought pedg, but I think this is a case of "everyman for himself".

[Jimmy_D]

I'd imagine the change to the CVA put through at the request of the FL is so that they can hit them over the head with a points deduction if they choose to, and hold their golden share as blackmail against them appealing it, the same as they did with us.

[sidthesquid]

When you look at the Magnificent Ten, none of them are going to get close to what they are on at Pompey. Most of them are 30+ and playing for a team that got relegated - who in the Championship has got the sort of money they are after? And for Mokoena, Kanu and Kitson, the prospect of getting even a modest wage is slim.

I read that Mokoena wants to go back to South Africa, but if he does he will be on next to nothing. It got me thinking and made me quite angry. He is being villified for holding out for what he is due, but that £500k he is owed makes him and most of his relatives secure for life in what is a very poor country. He signed a contract in good faith when there were other offers and at his age and his background that is a life-altering sum for many people. Same applies to Kanu.

But all of those players are near the end of their careers and Pompey encouraged them to take one last big payday and now want to renege on the deal. Birch and Appy seem to have been infected by the Skate virus. It is rotten to the very core.

[pedg]

Dont think so' date=' I suspect its the full value of paying off all the remaing player contracts should the club be liquidated - and I suspect this includes payments still due to payers from the last admin who have since left but are still owed - (including the remaining image right payments) - eg teh full cost of a golden share being granted to a pheonix club without a hideous points deduction...[/quote']

 

Yes it is the full amount on those but if it was accepted it would have to have been accepted as a football debt which would have made selling pompey impossible. Also it does not disprove my 'theory' as what the PFA are doing is saying "This is the absolute maximum our players would get out of pompey if it had survived" so is an obvious choice for a figure to throw in even if the throwing in is speculative. Just because TB excluded it from the CVA it could be seen as a marker in the sand for the debt calculations on liquidation.

[trousers]

@brianhowe01: I will support who I believe will do the best job for Pompey as owners..someone experienced in running a football club. Someone with money

[cryoman1965]

Why would he care about being seen as the "villain"? He could pull the plug and never be seen in the UK again. At the moment he isn't making personal appearances in the city and is sending his brother to meetings in the UK.

In Hong Kong it is considered very bad in business circles to own or manage a failed company. This route his CVA will fail because the players won't walk. The cva fails because of the "greedy players" but he has put forward a workable business plan. So not his fault, club fails and he has the ground circa £5million profit, because it was never proven that he lent the club any money in the first place.

[trousers]

When you look at the Magnificent Ten, none of them are going to get close to what they are on at Pompey. Most of them are 30+ and playing for a team that got relegated - who in the Championship has got the sort of money they are after? And for Mokoena, Kanu and Kitson, the prospect of getting even a modest wage is slim.

I read that Mokoena wants to go back to South Africa, but if he does he will be on next to nothing. It got me thinking and made me quite angry. He is being villified for holding out for what he is due, but that £500k he is owed makes him and most of his relatives secure for life in what is a very poor country. He signed a contract in good faith when there were other offers and at his age and his background that is a life-altering sum for many people. Same applies to Kanu.

But all of those players are near the end of their careers and Pompey encouraged them to take one last big payday and now want to renege on the deal. Birch and Appy seem to have been infected by the Skate virus. It is rotten to the very core.

 

All of which make you wonder why the Professional Footballers Association hasn't kicked up a huge stink about their members being so poorly treated and emotionally blackmailed. Maybe they have but behind closed doors?

[dubai_phil]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9354466/Rangers-rejected-from-SPL-after-Aberdeen-become-fifth-club-to-oppose-newcos-application.html

 

 

.........St Johnstone soon added their weight to the opposition to Green’s bid despite warning of a “serious impact” on the club’s finances.

 

A statement read: “Notwithstanding the potentially damaging financial implications, the board believes

that sporting integrity should not be sacrificed in favour of economic expediency.

“Over the last few weeks there has been a mounting groundswell of opinion amongst our fans which has clearly shown that the vast majority of our supporters would not favour an application by newco Rangers to the SPL. This has simply reaffirmed the board’s position.

 

 

........Earlier Caley Thistle chairman Kenny Cameron said: “The past few weeks have been extremely hectic in terms of our supporters and season ticket holders making their views known in great numbers to the club, as is their right.

“It is fair to say that in excess of 95 per cent of them raised the issue of sporting integrity as the reason why they don’t want the newco to be admitted and had not yet renewed their season tickets.

 

 

 

“We have also been contacted by supporters of various other SPL clubs, saying they would not be back to Inverness if we did not accept that sporting integrity was what mattered,

 

 

 

 

Scottish Football fans (and I never thought I would say this) I salute you.

 

Now FL there is a precedent

 

 

(IF they all hold their nerve up there)

[St Chalet]

Have #club24 got a goalkeeper yet?

[trousers]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9354466/Rangers-rejected-from-SPL-after-Aberdeen-become-fifth-club-to-oppose-newcos-application.html

 

 

 

 

Scottish Football fans (and I never thought I would say this) I salute you.

 

Now FL there is a precedent

 

 

(IF they all hold their nerve up there)

 

The time is definitely ripe for this thread's regular Football League correspondents to ask them to explain the difference in the overall conduct of Rangers and Pompey. It'll no doubt give rise to the usual standard generic reply but it'll register on their radar nonetheless.