Shrek Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Of course Kanu will not budge. They could invest in a zimmer frame to get him moving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Red Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 So nasty player with 1 year left of the final contract he's going to get won't walk away for nothing or take less BIG F*CKING SURPRISE No other club would have been stupid enough to give a player that old a contract that long. Why should he accept less anyway - he'll get his money one way or another. What makes the Kanu situation really really really funny and ironic is that he scored the goal that won them the FA Cup that all the DFCSB Few say made it all worth it. Well you celebrated the goal and the cup, now pay the piper or F*ck Off Rant over.... for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 I really really can't understand why there is no more talk now of the FL witholding the golden share. I know Chainrai has said he wll not let them be liquidated, but he is apparently also saying he will not buy them unless/until the high wage earners leave. Birch is admitting they are not leaving. Ergo Chainrai will notgo ahead with the purchase --certainly not in time for the start of the season. Ergo they cannot guarantee now, for the FL AGM, that they will fulfil all next season's fixtures. So why should they have the golden share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Perhaps TB could try and set an example to those players who won't give up their legal rights by working for free himself. That might get the players to play for free instead of getting all their money and therfore save the club.? Yeah Right and pigs will fly towards the sun and everyone will get free roast pork. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Red Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 I really really can't understand why there is no more talk now of the FL witholding the golden share. I know Chainrai has said he wll not let them be liquidated, but he is apparently also saying he will not buy them unless/until the high wage earners leave. Birch is admitting they are not leaving. Ergo Chainrai will notgo ahead with the purchase --certainly not in time for the start of the season. Ergo they cannot guarantee now, for the FL AGM, that they will fulfil all next season's fixtures. So why should they have the golden share? ...because the magic envelope containing the photos of the FL board and prostitutes at Horton Heath is still in the Fratton Park safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 So at the moment Chainrai appears to be in a "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" position? He may say he intends to get all his money back but its hard to see at the moment how that is going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 In fact, to be fair to Kanu, I believe he re-negotiated his contract a year or two ago, from a one-year contract with a huge wage, to one paying roughly the same total money over 3 years. If he'd stuck to the orignal contract he'd have already received the remaining £300k by now. So this is typical portsmouth behaviour. In effect ask the bloke to defer his wages, to spread them over 3 years, then try to renege on the third year of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Why should any player renegotiate his payments to a lower level when presumably he is guaranteed them from the football creditors rule? The only reason any of them would accept deferral which again is covered by the same rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Why should any player renegotiate his payments to a lower level when presumably he is guaranteed them from the football creditors rule? The only reason any of them would accept deferral which again is covered by the same rule. This. This is why TBH isnt going anywhere. He knows PFC can't pay so his best chance of getting his hands on what most of us would consider a sizeable Lottery win lies in seeing them go bust and the insurance of the football creditors scheme paying out the jackpot. It's a straight stare out between Birch/ Chanrai and TBH/Zahavi. And every day the situation gets worse for Creditors. I know where my money is. Cheerio DFCSB's. Big sigh of relief heard from Portugal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Remind me of how many players we managed to 'git rid of' when we were in this position. As I remember it's zero. I'm sure Lowe would have loved to get Rasiak, Saganowski, Euell, Skacel, Thomas etc all off the payroll, but we couldn't. We sent some on loan, like they did and didn't play them. We had to keep at least Thomas for another season in Lge 1, luckily the others came to the end of their contract, or we shipped them out on frees (Rasiak, Saganowski). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Red Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 This. This is why TBH isnt going anywhere. He knows PFC can't pay so his best chance of getting his hands on what most of us would consider a sizeable Lottery win lies in seeing them go bust and the insurance of the football creditors scheme paying out the jackpot. It's a straight stare out between Birch/ Chanrai and TBH/Zahavi. And every day the situation gets worse for Creditors. I know where my money is. Cheerio DFCSB's. Big sigh of relief heard from Portugal. Ha They need to be able to out stare one of the greatest (within his field!) football agents in the world Good luck with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 they're obviously at a stalemate and have as predicted, ground to a halt over the wagebill. Put yourself in Ben Haim's position. You've been kind enough to defer wages yet you're still owed loads, you've also been made out as the villain, and you still have a year of guaranteed future income that they want to thieve off you. But the club was GIVEN money by the Premier League to cover these costs - shedloads of it. If the club has spent that on other stuff, why is it the player's fault? He has every right to stand his ground, so I don't expect to see any ripping up of contracts - this also goes for Kanu who was a hero one minute and is then being described as a greedy moneygrabbing ba$tard the next. The only way to break the stalemate may be to draw up new contracts. Ben Haim is released, byebye! - but the next parachute payment gives him a lump sum, ditto the next one - as the old expression goes, he will get all of his money, mush. The minor problem with this would be that the parachute payments don't cover all the contracts, and there is a small queue of secured creditors with first shout on the remaining £4M-£7M.... If they get liquidated Ben Haim will still get paid for central PFA or league funds, he is more secure than Chanrai - for that reason alone Birch cannot threaten him with anything, other than a visit from CSI. His blinged-up, over-chromed Range Rover might less look cool with 100 jagged holes in the driver's door. But to get this business at least looking like it's solvent, Birch has got to pull a humpback whale out of a hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 This situation is absolutely hilarious. My list They cannot buy players as there is an embargo and they have no money. They cannot sell or give away current players as they are too expensive and the club may go pop anyway. They cannot sell season tickets to get money in. They cannot sell the club because of the high earners. The high earners don't want to leave as they are guaranteed the money. Even if the club is saved, preseason will be a shambles with too little time to prepare the players. Also I think Truckasaurus should add God Bless the FCR at the end of his posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 The Football League need to put them out of their misery and use the parachute money to pay the players what they are owed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjwills Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Person in "wanting to be paid what he's contractually owed" shocker. I know it's a bit of a new concept to people down there, but when you promise to pay someone a certain sum of money, you're actually obliged to pay them that sum of money. Thats not the Pompey way it's 20% of 20% is all they expect to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 (edited) Birch is trying a bit of moral blackmail by naming and shaming those who wont leave - which is in itself immoral imo. Effectively he is asking them to write a cheque for hundreds of thousands of pounds (or £2m in TBH case) in order that a dodgy moneylender and son of arms dealer can have an easier ride. Why the **** should they? Edited 1 June, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Made me cry - in fact I was rofl so much I couldn't stop Benjani earned 15 grand a week on his non-event of a second spell with Pompey Just staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Red Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 The players are entitles to have their contracts paid up PKF are entitled to be paid for handling the administration. Perhaps they both ought to give up what they're due - They could then take the Few adulation for both saving the DFCSBs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 So this is typical portsmouth behaviour. In effect ask the bloke to defer his wages, to spread them over 3 years, then try to renege on the third year of the deal. Hiring Kanu on the never-never. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 This situation is absolutely hilarious. My list They cannot buy players as there is an embargo and they have no money. They cannot sell the club because of the high earners. The high earners don't want to leave as they are guaranteed the money. And that Yossarian is Catch 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Birch is trying a bit of moral blackmail by trying to name and shame those who wont leave - which is in itself immoral imo. Effectively he is asking them to write a cheque for hundreds of thousands of pounds (or £2m in TBH case) in order that a dodgy moneylender and son of arms dealer can have an easier ride. Why the **** should they? Is TB shareing personal data a breach of the law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Is TB shareing personal data a breach of the law? If not then he must be getting close to it. A real breach of confidentiality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Benjani earned 15 grand a week on his non-event of a second spell with Pompey Just staggering. And Corp Ho was utterly incredulous at the suggestion his wage level was anywhere near that; he just wouldn't have it and ridiculed anyone for suggesting it. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 I hope they put the comments section back on the News soon. It gives me great enjoyment and reactions to today's articles would have been superb entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint si Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Is TB shareing personal data a breach of the law? Not only that, he is arguably inciting hatred against TBH (for having the audacity to request his contract be honoured) with the fans.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Lightjaw Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 I'm assuming that if poopey go under after the football fixtures are announced, then the other 23 league 1 clubs would be entitled to compensation? After all, they would lose a Saturdays income (hefty even for league one) So who would pay that? Football league or PKF (if they gave assurances fixtures could be met)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Lightjaw Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 They've just announced season tick prices http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/LatestNews/news/Season-Ticket-Prices-Slashed-3453.aspx “Until we have more clarity on the club’s long-term future, all the money from season tickets will be ring-fenced and released as games are played, so that funds are protected if the club fails to fulfil its fixtures next season.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsbridge Saint Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 This was meant to be the week of all weeks as some promised. But instead what has transpired is Birch having the confidence and cheek to not even show up AND STILL claim that they will be allowed to compete in League 1 and without a points deduction and all. The Football League continue to be trampled on, abused, mugged and even accused while the other clubs seemingly pretend nothing is going on. Conspiracy? Likely. Something isn't right that's for sure. Any other business, any other football club, and you could be sure that punishment would be more severe. What is it that Portsmouth has over the FL? Video footage of Lord Mahwinney sexually assaulting his pet cat? A document that proves the FL are secretly hiding weapons of mass destruction on behalf of an unnamed middle eastern country? A photograph of Kony bringing his child soldiers into Football League HQ for some 'work experience'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Lightjaw Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 the confidence and cheek to not even show up AND STILL claim that they will be allowed to compete in League 1 This is what I don't understand .... There are financial implications for all other league one clubs .... the football league seems happy ... but Birch couldn't have given them assurances if he uses a statement like "if the club fails to fulfil its fixtures next season” Do the other league one clubs even know what ****e poopey are in? (if not, can somebody tell them please!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stev2001 Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 This is what I don't understand .... There are financial implications for all other league one clubs .... the football league seems happy ... but Birch couldn't have given them assurances if he uses a statement like "if the club fails to fulfil its fixtures next season” Do the other league one clubs even know what ****e poopey are in? (if not, can somebody tell them please!) I gave up trying to understand how they keep getting away with this months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 (edited) Season tickets can be bought with a cheque made payable to ‘Portsmouth Football Club (2010) Ltd in Administration’. Loools if i was buying something and they was making me write "in Administration" on the cheque, I think I'd be like nah I'll leave it then thanks. Also, if they can't spend the money till the matches are played what is the point of selling season tickets at a discounted rate? Edited 1 June, 2012 by Bearsy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 They've just announced season tick prices http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/LatestNews/news/Season-Ticket-Prices-Slashed-3453.aspx “Until we have more clarity on the club’s long-term future, all the money from season tickets will be ring-fenced and released as games are played, so that funds are protected if the club fails to fulfil its fixtures next season.” So, in the very same week that Birch has to give the Football League a cast iron guarantee that they are in a position to complete their fixtures next season, he makes a statement that puts 'reasonable doubt' on that happening.... Wake up Football League.....FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedg Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Loools if i was buying something and they was making me write "in Administration" on the cheque, I think I'd be like nah I'll leave it then thanks. Also, if they can't spend the money till the matches are played what is the point of selling season tickets at a discounted rate? Well if the bestest fan's rushed to buy them it might help them sell the club as would indicate to the buyer how much of the running costs would be covered by the season tickets. unfortunately for them the opposite is also true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 (edited) http://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/LatestNews/news/Season-Ticket-Prices-Slashed-3453.aspx "Supporters renewing their seat can avoid long queues by filling in their form in the Chimes Lounge on Wednesday, June 6, Thursday, June 7 or Friday, June 8 (9am-5pm) and then hand it in with a cheque or credit/debit card details" Long queues....? Edited 1 June, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Why you lot are still bleating about the football league kicking them I have no clue. Watching their slow death, their desperate attempts to off load players so they can be bought is much more fun. They are fu.cked up beyond belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 "Supporters renewing their seat can avoid long queues by filling in their form in the Chimes Lounge on Wednesday, June 6, Thursday, June 7 or Friday, June 8 (9am-5pm) and then hand it in with a cheque or credit/debit card details" Long queues....? The mobility scooter user and helper get in for £99 per year. 2 punters that will pay TBH wages for approximately 5 mins based on his £50k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Under Weststand Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Unbelievable in any other walk of life, but not in basket town! Once again Birch freely admits to insolvency, can't pay wages once again. But still nothing from the FL. Haven't we been assured by Corpy Ho Ho Ho in the past about ring fencing money at farton. I'm sure he claimed the parachute payments were RING FENCED to pay CVA1? Just another scam ( ring fencing selason ticket sales) to use the money to keep staggering on paying (said in the loosest sense of the word) Players they neither want now or can afford. Please make season ticket cheques payable to "Chear on Appys Super Hero's" or C.A.S.H for short. You will definitely get your money back when we fail whoops if we fail to fulfil our fixtures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastcowzer Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Unbelievable in any other walk of life, but not in basket town! Once again Birch freely admits to insolvency, can't pay wages once again. But still nothing from the FL. Haven't we been assured by Corpy Ho Ho Ho in the past about ring fencing money at farton. I'm sure he claimed the parachute payments were RING FENCED to pay CVA1? Just another scam ( ring fencing selason ticket sales) to use the money to keep staggering on paying (said in the loosest sense of the word) Players they neither want now or can afford. Please make season ticket cheques payable to "Chear on Appys Super Hero's" or C.A.S.H for short. You will definitely get your money back when we fail whoops if we fail to fulfil our fixtures! From today's Daily Telegraph: 'another conternder for the position of Manger of Swansea City is the well thought of Michael Appleton, the Portsmouth manager'. You know, the one that got them relegated Now that should help the situation no end ,especially on the financial side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stev2001 Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 There has to be everything riding on this meeting? Why was it Birch gave the meeting date as the date they run out of money? It cant be just coincidense. If he knows they will be fulfilling all fixtures next season then why wait to sell the club to chinny or the fans after the meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Good news at last for Pompey..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18298740 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 "Supporters renewing their seat can avoid long queues by filling in their form in the Chimes Lounge on Wednesday, June 6, Thursday, June 7 or Friday, June 8 (9am-5pm) and then hand it in with a cheque or credit/debit card details" Presumably thick wax crayons will be available to help them do this. You know, the ones that make them stick their tongues out of the corner of their mouths when they use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 (edited) Good to see they're making decisions on the important stuff at the Football League AGM today then.... http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/football-league-to-return-to-seven-subs-1-3910761 Football League clubs have voted to return to using seven substitutes next season. Edited 1 June, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 (edited) http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/kanu-wants-full-pay-off-to-leave-pompey-1-3907765 Published on Friday 1 June 2012 13:06 KANU has refused to leave Pompey unless he is paid the full amount owed to him for the remainder of his 12-month contract. That is the claim from Blues administrator Trevor Birch, who insists the veteran striker’s agent is demanding the total worth of Kanu’s deal for him to leave Fratton Park early, despite the club still fighting to stay alive. The sum is believed to be in the region of £300,000 for a player whose current deal has already been lowered by a relegation clause. That has dealt another blow to Birch’s efforts to drive down the club’s current £9.5m wage bill, which is crucial in finding a new owner. Kanu, the scorer of Pompey’s FA Cup-winning goal in 2008, is among several players who the Blues are seeking to reach compromise agreements with. Now aged 35, a back problem contributed to restricting his availability to just 12 matches this season. Tal Ben Haim is another refusing to lower his sights following talks with Birch last week. That will cost Pompey close to £2m for him to leave this summer. Both players accepted wage deferrals towards the end of the campaign along with their team-mates to alleviate the club’s financial problems. Now more money needs to be saved as the administrators strive to slash the club wage bill in half ahead of life in League One. And Birch is growing ever-frustrated with their stance. He said: ‘The club is in the players’ hands . ‘On one hand, them agreeing to defer wages gave the club a lifeline – but at the same time they need to take big cuts in the long term to enable it to survive. ‘Draconian wage cuts and deferrals among the players is the only way the club can go forward. That is why it is in everybody’s interests we get compromises or they sign reductions on what they are playing for. ‘The ones we are having problems with are Kanu and Ben Haim. You cannot strike a deal with them. ‘Kanu’s agent wants the full amount and at the moment he is going nowhere. ‘His agent is digging his heels in as well, making demands, and it is very difficult to solve. ‘As for our friend Ben Haim, he just won’t budge. The deal he wants is not achievable. We have not got the means to do it. ‘There are players at this club who are sat there. They are not coming to me and writing it all off saying they will leave straight away. ‘We have to get them off the wage bill and I cannot say any of them are making it easy for me to get them to leave.’ Deferrals agreed by players have meant that, since May, there has been a weekly wage cap of less than £10,000. This agreement is open-ended and any player leaving will receive the money owed as part of any compromise. And Birch stressed the players will not lose out. He added: ‘The deferrals will be paid back. ‘Asfootball creditors, the players have to be paid in full, albeit spread over a period of time. That could be four years but they will get the money back. ‘They are keeping the club afloat at the minute with those deferrals. ‘But when I come to talk to them about their future contract or future entitlements they will have to compromise to help the club going forwards.’ Edited 1 June, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Good to see they're making decisions on the important stuff at the Football League AGM today then.... http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/football-league-to-return-to-seven-subs-1-3910761 Football League clubs have voted to return to using seven substitutes next season. Those sorts of decisions are exactly why they have the AGM in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Those sorts of decisions are exactly why they have the AGM in the first place. Yes, I know....but this is the Pompey Takeover Saga thread..... where us nutjobs ...©SWF 2012... are obsessed with more important matters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 Yes, I know....but this is the Pompey Takeover Saga thread..... where us nutjobs ...©SWF 2012... are obsessed with more important things.... Ah, of course. Damn you Football League :x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durleyfos Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 So Kanu and TBH have already helped the club out by defering their wages once, and now Birch is whinging and whining that they won't do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stev2001 Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 the players have to be paid in full, albeit spread over a period of time. That could be four years but they will get the money back. So all they are doing now is racking up more debt that needs to be paid back later. Something's never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiesaint Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/kanu-wants-full-pay-off-to-leave-pompey-1-3907765 Published on Friday 1 June 2012 13:06 ‘Draconian wage cuts and deferrals among the players is the only way the club can go forward. That is why it is in everybody’s interests we get compromises or they sign reductions on what they are playing for. Hate to say it TB, but it's not exactly in everyone's interest is it? He added: ‘The deferrals will be paid back. ‘As football creditors, the players have to be paid in full, albeit spread over a period of time. That could be four years but they will get the money back. The deferrals will be paid back said TB looking for some magic beans to pay them back with.... oh but it'll take 4 years (if you're lucky) to get back what you've deferred already so why on earth would they want to defer any more? TB really is getting more & more desperate by the day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigShadow Posted 1 June, 2012 Share Posted 1 June, 2012 http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/kanu-wants-full-pay-off-to-leave-pompey-1-3907765 Published on Friday 1 June 2012 13:06 ‘There are players at this club who are sat there. They are not coming to me and writing it all off saying they will leave straight away. Love this line.......how unreasonable of them not to walk away for free. WTF does Birch expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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