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Pompey Takeover Saga

Fitzhugh Fella

By Fitzhugh Fella,
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Sevvy

Sevvy

Posted
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Comment From Ian Limb Ian Limb : ]

With the cva will it be the HMRC who holds the cards? they always vote against any CVA so is it likely we will get overall creditor agreement?

Friday April 13, 2012 13:56 Ian Limb

13:57 Trevor: They will vote against the CVA because they vote in principle against the football creditor rule. But they are only owed £2m and therefore will not be able to stop a CVA

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trousers

trousers

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[TD]Comment From Albert Road

Given the state if the ground, and the lack of investment when we had money, are we really an attractive proposition for a buyer ..even ignoring the debts ? [/TD]

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[TD]Trevor:

I think this is a good question Albert Road because undoubtedly if the £100M of debt across the two administrations had been invested in infrastructure, the club would have been a far more attractive proposition [/TD]

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Pugwash

Pugwash

Posted
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Comment From Ian Limb Ian Limb : ]

With the cva will it be the HMRC who holds the cards? they always vote against any CVA so is it likely we will get overall creditor agreement?

Friday April 13, 2012 13:56 Ian Limb

13:57 Trevor: They will vote against the CVA because they vote in principle against the football creditor rule. But they are only owed £2m and therefore will not be able to stop a CVA

 

He hasn't answered my two questions asking if CVA1 was a major creditor large enough to block a second CVA...

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted (edited)
He hasn't answered my two questions asking if CVA1 was a major creditor large enough to block a second CVA...

 

Likewise...I asked him if Baker Tilly were still custodians of the old CVA (and whether that reverted to the original 100% amounts) and what part they might play in agreeing the new CVA.....

 

Completely ignored...which, again, probably tells us something....

Edited by trousers
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mickn

mickn

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[TD]Comment From Jane from OPL

Hi Mr Birch, as one of your creditors (OPL - owed £5k) I must say how frustrated I am that the club has let me down so badly, only for you to flippantly brush off debt 'like a dividend'... You owe me five thousand pounds and that amount could destroy my family business, but you carry on signing players eh? [/TD]

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[TD]Trevor:

I feel incredibly sorry for creditors and I didn't in any way try to be flippant. I was just trying to state what I think might happen and stick to the facts without any emotion. But it is just terribly sad for those affected [/TD]

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Community club of the year, my arse

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trousers

trousers

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[TD]Comment From Josh

Would you put some of the blame on the Football League for Portsmouth being in this financial position?[/TD]

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[TD]Trevor:

No [/TD]

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[TD]Trevor:

Thank you all ... I have to go now and I am sorry I have not been able to answer all the questions. But I have tried to pick out the main themes. I'll look at all the questions I have not got to immediately and will give answers to The News to be published later. [/TD]

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

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[TD]Comment From Fred

Surely reneging on the old CVA will cost us another points deduction?

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[TD]Trevor:

Another good question. It's not certain, but I don't think so. It will be up to the Football League board

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Hmmm....that's less definitive than he said before....

 

That was me. I thought the no more points claim earlier was a bit far-fetched. In short , he doesn't know but is just hoping.

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Thedelldays

Thedelldays

Posted
Posted
Ok, so what do we make of all that in a nutshell then? None the wiser?

they have just enough to see them over the summer

they need to get rid of many players ASAP

they really need a buyer ASAP

the FL AGM is 2 June...and they could vote in favour of stuffing pompey

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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

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[TD]Comment From King

With this big debth - how much money will it cost to buy the club?

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[TD]Trevor:

The debt is written off, so it is whatever a buyer is willing to pay for the club and then the old debt will just receive a dividend, like the old CVA

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They'll receive a dividend like they did in the old CVA?

 

Sounds like an attractive offer.

:facepalm:

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

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[TD]Comment From Albert Road

Surely the fans trust buyout scheme will not be able to raise more money than the creditors would get from liquidation? If so it's hopeless isn't ?

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[TD]Trevor:

Not necessarily. I think you are being unduly pessimistic

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Me again. And I think I am right!

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
Bloody hell so HMRC are only owed 2 million so cannot block a CVA? They are going to get away with it again...

 

How the **** have HMRC gone from being owed "double figure millions" (old CVA + new debt) to a measly £2m?

 

Even Ocean ****ing Finance aren't that good at consolidating debts FFS

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Wurzel

Wurzel

Posted
Posted
Likewise...I asked him if Baker Tilly were still custodians of the old CVA (and whether that reverted to the original 100% amounts) and what part they might play in agreeing the new CVA.....

 

Completely ignored...which, again, probably tells us something....

 

I asked several including a similar one, if it reverts to 100% aren't HMRC owed far more than the £2m in his previous answer. Also, in his opinion, why did judge not wind them up 2 years ago when she admitted they were insolvent. And, with what he knows now, would they be better off if they HAD been liquidated back then. Also, is there any possible scenario that could see them not fulfilling this seasons fixtures.

 

All ignored. I think that little episode was a good lesson in reading between the lines, the "overlooked" questions say more than those that were answered

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Stepgar

Stepgar

Posted
Posted

The way I see it, if no one else comes in and someone offers peanuts say 3million then the creditors agree (or not) then the club and its assets are yours? THey can literally turn £50million of debt in to 5 million or 3 to use my example. CRAZY just CRAZY.

 

This is how so many car sales companies do it..........buy **** loads of cars, go in to debt, go in to admin, create another car company and buy the stock etc for a fraction of the price whilst still selling cars at market prices.

 

Something is seriously wrong with this country. No wonder we all in the ****.

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted

So for me, firstly Birch seems a decent enough bloke trying to put as postive spin on an awful situation as he can without actually lying. Secondly they may or may not get a further points deduction for failing to pay the old CVA. Thirdly they're stuffed unless they get a buyer in the next month or so, who will have to pay c£5-10 million up front and then also fund a loss (because of the wages) for the next year or two. And even that depends on how the charge on the ground is interpreted by Chainrai and his lawyers.

 

I got through as Fred, Bluey and Albert Road, but strangely my posts from Russell Hobbs, R O'Wenta and B.Reville all failed!

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
How the **** have HMRC gone from being owed "double figure millions" (old CVA + new debt) to a measly £2m?

 

Even Ocean ****ing Finance aren't that good at consolidating debts FFS

 

This is cut and pasted from the PKF document:

 

HM Revenue &

Customs (PAYE / NIC)

ICHU, Benton Park View, Longbenton, Newcastle

Upon Tyne, NE98 1ZZ

 

9,861,653.22

 

 

 

HM Revenue &

Customs (VAT)

Insolvency Operations, Queens Dock, Liverpool,

L74 4AF

 

506,435.92

 

So that's over 10 million listed in his document that is owed. How does that become only 2 million?!?

 

--

 

unless he was referring to the HMRC share due on the original CVA implying that section should not vote against a new one??

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted (edited)

If , as Birch says, HMRC have no effective say in whether CVA2 is approved or not, why were HMRC seemingly content in February for the judge to put the club into administration again? It would seem, by supporting Birch's appointment, that they have shot themselves in the foot? They would surely have been better off campaigning for liquidation than going along with the administration option again?

 

Unless I've not fully understood or recalled what the options were in January/February after HMRC petitioned for a winding up order?

Edited by trousers
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andysstuff

andysstuff

Posted
Posted
This is cut and pasted from the PKF document:

 

HM Revenue &

Customs (PAYE / NIC)

ICHU, Benton Park View, Longbenton, Newcastle

Upon Tyne, NE98 1ZZ

 

9,861,653.22

 

 

 

HM Revenue &

Customs (VAT)

Insolvency Operations, Queens Dock, Liverpool,

L74 4AF

 

506,435.92

 

So that's over 10 million listed in his document that is owed. How does that become only 2 million?!?

 

At a guess, the majority is from cva1 at 20p in the pound

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
The way I see it, if no one else comes in and someone offers peanuts say 3million then the creditors agree (or not) then the club and its assets are yours? THey can literally turn £50million of debt in to 5 million or 3 to use my example. CRAZY just CRAZY.

 

This is how so many car sales companies do it..........buy **** loads of cars, go in to debt, go in to admin, create another car company and buy the stock etc for a fraction of the price whilst still selling cars at market prices.

 

Something is seriously wrong with this country. No wonder we all in the ****.

 

But if the creditors think they will get more than the £3 million from liquidation, they will not agree. If they don't agree then either Birch has to liquidate and sell off the assets, or it's gets complicated, and they certainly get a further points deduction.

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted

the FL AGM is 2 June...and they could vote in favour of stuffing pompey

 

I suspect it may be that each club has to confirm it believes it is able to make its fixtures for the following season. So it may not even need the FL to vote against them as Birch would have to admin that he could not make such an undertaking so they would then, one assumes, lose their golden share?

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pedg

pedg

Posted
Posted
At a guess, the majority is from cva1 at 20p in the pound

 

The PKF document includes the debt of 16 million due on the original CVA so can't see how any of the original debt should be included separately?

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Saint_John

Saint_John

Posted
Posted

He seem to ignore any questions he didn't want to answer.

 

I asked a number about the Football League statement made when they were given back the Golden Share (24 Oct 2010)

http://www.football-league.co.uk/championship/news/20101024/pompey-exit-administration_2293322_2193579

and especially the final paragraph.

"The Football League will now work with the club to encourage it to operate in a sustainable manner. This includes increased financial reporting requirements and restrictions on player signings that will help the club live within its means going forward, as well as meeting the commitments made to the creditors of Portsmouth Football Club in accordance with the agreed CVA."

 

(a) "ENCOURAGE to operate in a sustainable manner" - surely the FL will do more than "ENCOURAGE" this time.

(b) "RESTRICTIONS on player signings.. live within its means" - yet the Club signed Lawerence & Kitson on big wages, surely the FL is going to come down hard this time on any signing because the Cheats appeared to have ignored their requests last time.

© "meeting the commitments made to the creditors" - words fail me on that one ....."COMMITMENT" !!!!

 

 

But he refused to answer questions on "ENCOURAGEMENT", "COMMITMENT" or "living within its means" and what the FL actions will be.

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted

basically Chanrai will be back, throwing good money after bad, there is no way he will allow the 17m to be written off and so may buy the club in the last minute as TB is about to liquidate. By then the players with high wages will be shown the door by Birch.

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bridge too far

bridge too far

Posted
Posted
basically Chanrai will be back, throwing good money after bad, there is no way he will allow the 17m to be written off and so may buy the club in the last minute as TB is about to liquidate. By then the players with high wages will be shown the door by Birch.

 

But Birch has already said repeatedly that he can't show the players with high wages the door. Their contracts are protected. So BC would have to honour those wages even if he did step in again.

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FloridaMarlin

FloridaMarlin

Posted
Posted

Thank you Ian Dury

 

 

"Just cos I ain't never said, no, nothing worth saying

never ever, never ever, never ever

things 'ave got read into what I never sad, 'till me mouth becomes me 'ead

which ain't not all that clever

and it's not not saying one thing nor another

neither, either is it anything I haven't said, whatever

and it ain't not proving that me mind ain't moving

and I answer to the name of Trever, however.

 

knock me down with a feather

Clever Trevor

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TopGun

TopGun

Posted
Posted
Ok, so what do we make of all that in a nutshell then? None the wiser?

 

Didn't learn anything new - except silence speaks volumes!

 

That's the key point. The questions not answered are those that will cause Trevor trouble.

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Clapham Saint

Clapham Saint

Posted
Posted
I would like to know ( Clapham ? ) who decides how Baker Tilley decide to vote if CVA2 is put forward ?

 

Do they have a vote of all the unpaid creditors of CVA1 ? If so HRMC have almost half of the vote on that ( 7/16th ) .

 

The liquidator will decide (Geoff Carton-Kelly). He'll vote for whateve he thinks will result in the old co receiving the most money for the creditors of the first CVA (now a Liquidation).

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Micky

Micky

Posted
Posted
He seem to ignore any questions he didn't want to answer.

 

I asked a number about the Football League statement made when they were given back the Golden Share (24 Oct 2010)

http://www.football-league.co.uk/championship/news/20101024/pompey-exit-administration_2293322_2193579

and especially the final paragraph.

 

 

(a) "ENCOURAGE to operate in a sustainable manner" - surely the FL will do more than "ENCOURAGE" this time.

(b) "RESTRICTIONS on player signings.. live within its means" - yet the Club signed Lawerence & Kitson on big wages, surely the FL is going to come down hard this time on any signing because the Cheats appeared to have ignored their requests last time.

© "meeting the commitments made to the creditors" - words fail me on that one ....."COMMITMENT" !!!!

 

 

But he refused to answer questions on "ENCOURAGEMENT", "COMMITMENT" or "living within its means" and what the FL actions will be.

 

Quite damning really.

 

Personally I think there are many, many more people than those just associated with PCF who are simply sticking two fingers up at everybody who questions this whole sorry mess.

 

From what I gather today - we have a business that has seen fit to twice enter administration, run up debts of nearly 200 million pounds - but are happy (as appears are the administrators) to simply 'right off' the debt and carry on as normal.

 

And I was worried about my poxy mortgage.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
The liquidator will decide (Geoff Carton-Kelly). He'll vote for whateve he thinks will result in the old co receiving the most money for the creditors of the first CVA (now a Liquidation).

 

Do you know what percentage of the vote he will have? Cheers

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Foxstone

Foxstone

Posted
Posted
He refused to answer any questions from Izgorio Kruh on the 'saga', or indeed the 65% wages / turnover cap they might be facing next season - perhaps his Croatian is better than I thought.

 

Great Try !:)

 

Literal translation of burnt bread if anybody other than Trev is interested.

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angelman

angelman

Posted
Posted

No doubt some chancer will come along with £5-6m and buy them. However, their hopes of finding some super-rich guy might well be affected by their now very tarnished reputation regardless of how cheap they might be.

 

Still, if someone did buy them, they'd get a **** ground, no infrastructure and TBH and Kanu.

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Winchester Red

Winchester Red

Posted
Posted

I wonder if now the 'age' thing has come to light (Kanu is actually 42 - is that for real?), can they cancel his contract which would have been signed under false pretences / false information?

 

Not even the Skates would be stupid enough to give a long contract taking an outfield player up to their 43rd birthday...... would they?

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