Jump to content

Pompey Takeover Saga


Fitzhugh Fella

Recommended Posts

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=class: chatmsgtime, bgcolor: #F6F6F6]13:36[/TD]

[TD=class: chatmsgtext viewer_text, bgcolor: #FFFFFF][TABLE=width: 100%]

[TR]

[TD]spacer.gif[/TD]

[TD][Comment From Noel Blake Fan Club: ]

When will the clock be fixed? Do we still have fat in the pipes? Will Fratton pass its H&S test this year? Will we install toilets? Will we get hot water?

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The club are like a shot-ridden WWII bomber returning to base. Limping in on one engine, almost out of fuel, everybody bailing out whilst they have enough altitude, the control tower give them clearance for a straight in approach, sighs of relief as they touch down... and then the undercarriage collapses and the unreleased bombs go up in a spectacular explosion.

 

So yes, they'll get to the end of the season, but without a buyer or even season ticket money for the following year they are so, so um.. polite language fails me..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still reckon there was a good reason why they've chopped and changed the admin announcement on a couple of occasions though.....the second time they added "trading as Portsmouth FC" to the company description....which made me wonder if Birch had a trick up his sleeve....

 

definitely something fishy going on

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except the Football League can apply and vary their own rules at their ultimate discretion where they feel appropriate.

 

I would imagine they never envisaged that a club who had been so royally ****ed would carry on where they left off having (somehow) managed to get a CVA agreed and then make no attempt to pay any of that money back.

 

Just like they never envisaged that a football club would put their parent company into administration rather than the football club in an attempt to avoid the statutory 10-point deduction.

 

It's a logical assumption that the creditors of the old Portsmouth FC wouldn't have agreed to a CVA comprising a total payout of 0p in the pound, which is now what they're likely to receive. If they'd attempted to exit administration on those terms two years ago, they'd have been hit with at least another 15-point deduction, so why should that not apply retrospectively?

 

True, Understand the logic of why a descretionary points deduction or retrospective action should be taken, but seems the FL have said they wont do it if Birch is to believed... I suspect in part because its still very unclear as to whether Pompey will find a buyer or even if they do whether the creditors will agree a CVA... I get the impression that the FL want to be seen to be supporting the club for some reason - which does go against the integrity of the competion, yet if relegated they can at least say, that ''we supported the club in avoiding liquidation, but our rules on fair competition have worked as the club was relegated and thus did not gain any sporting advantage through this administration....''

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True' date=' Understand the logic of why a descretionary points deduction or retrospective action should be taken, but seems the FL have said they wont do it if Birch is to believed[/quote']

Birch will say what he has to say to keep people interested. Clearly the whole talk about the club only having enough money to last another two weeks was a complete red herring, and then they only had until the end of March, and oh look, they'll comfortably make it through to the end of the season now, despite only having managed to get agreement to defer 25% of the wages until the summer.

 

In theory, CVA1 hasn't yet "failed". The Football League - if they were keeping on top of the situation - could have taken Birch's words that it won't be paid literally and imposed a sanction there and then, but they can't just go on the spoken word of an administrator whose job it is to make the company as attractive to an investor as possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=class: chatmsgtime, bgcolor: #F6F6F6]13:28

[/TD]

[TD=class: chatmsgtext viewer_text, bgcolor: #FFFFFF][TABLE=width: 100%]

[TR]

[TD]spacer.gif[/TD]

[TD][Comment From jkimbell jkimbell : ]

I am speaking to the club about potentially helping them use GroupOn to distribute tickets at rock bottom prices [/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

Groupon:

 

"They give loans to small businesses at a very steep rate (the price of the discount plus Groupon’s commission)."

 

and

 

"Groupon is essentially a sub-prime lender that does zero risk assessment."

 

Very appropriate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Birch will say what he has to say to keep people interested. Clearly the whole talk about the club only having enough money to last another two weeks was a complete red herring, and then they only had until the end of March, and oh look, they'll comfortably make it through to the end of the season now, despite only having managed to get agreement to defer 25% of the wages until the summer.

 

In theory, CVA1 hasn't yet "failed". The Football League - if they were keeping on top of the situation - could have taken Birch's words that it won't be paid literally and imposed a sanction there and then, but they can't just go on the spoken word of an administrator whose job it is to make the company as attractive to an investor as possible.

 

So classic brinkmanship from Birch... ironically not saying a whole lot different to the sort of stuff AA used to come out with... maybe the only difference being that AA bigging up the club for sake of single creditor Mr Chanrai, versus Birch actually looking after them all...so some improvemnet , granted ;-)

 

What's your take then Granty on the end game and any further punishment?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The FL won't apply any penalty for the failure of CVA1 until it is confirmed, to everyone's satisfaction, that no money will be paid into it. Despite Birch saying it's failed, in reality all that has happened to date is that they're late with the first payment (par for the course, you might say).

 

Should the club be taken over and all debts paid in full, including CVA1, there's no reason for any points penalty - so the FL can't penalise them now.

 

The fate of CVA1 has yet to be decided and until it is, the FL can't act. But you can bet your arse they're watching very carefully. PFC123 and TB can claim there'll definitely be no further penalty all they like, they don't that for sure.

 

Remember that any CVA2 will need HMRC and BakerTilley to vote for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Groupon:

 

"They give loans to small businesses at a very steep rate (the price of the discount plus Groupon’s commission)."

 

and

 

"Groupon is essentially a sub-prime lender that does zero risk assessment."

 

Very appropriate.

 

So, so many posts on this thread have me laughing out loud...

 

Trousers piccy one as well. That looks like the top end of Commercial Rd in Pompey?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The FL won't apply any penalty for the failure of CVA1 until it is confirmed, to everyone's satisfaction, that no money will be paid into it. Despite Birch saying it's failed, in reality all that has happened to date is that they're late with the first payment (par for the course, you might say).

 

Should the club be taken over and all debts paid in full, including CVA1, there's no reason for any points penalty - so the FL can't penalise them now.

 

The fate of CVA1 has yet to be decided and until it is, the FL can't act. But you can bet your arse they're watching very carefully. PFC123 and TB can claim there'll definitely be no further penalty all they like, they don't that for sure.

 

Remember that any CVA2 will need HMRC and BakerTilley to vote for it.

 

Sounds about right. There is no way the league could give Birch a statement that there would be no points deduction whatever happens. They probably said that there would be no immediate deductions but there might be depending on how the situation turned out but he decided to 'paraphrase' them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"...literally hundreds have paid their £100 deposits." That £8m looks a long way off.

 

Maybe we should all chip in? They say if you can't afford the sum on your own you can join a syndicate. Just think, a group of Saints fans holding shares in the Skates, they'd f**kin hate that!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Golden Share is the be-all and end-all as far as Football League clubs are concerned - without it, you can't start the season, so it's possible that the FL could basically blackmail them into accepting a points deduction at the start of next season in exchange for the share (if they can get that far), after all that's essentially what they did with us and Leeds.

 

This is spot on. Nobody, knows what the FL will do regarding terms for the transfer of the Golden share to the new company.

 

The last thing the FL will want to do is announce a -15 (for example) too early. 1) it could put potential owners off, and 2) The new owners might come in and settle CVA 1 ( unlikely, but you never know). They basically use the Golden Share as a bribe to close loopholes. There's no doubt legally we had a case to pursue leagl action against the -10, they simply closed that avenue using the Golden Share. Remember Fry was adament we were going to get our points back, so Birch can insist that there's going to be no more deduction ,but that doesn't make it so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so through all the bluster we've got a bit sidetracked. How does PFC2010 Ltd (or whatever the **** they're called now) move forward?

 

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/insmanual/ins3217.htm

 

5 ways to exit Admin:

 

1 - CVA or similar agreed with creditors

2 - Dissolution

3 - Creditors Voluntary Liquidation

4 - Compulsory Liquidation

5 - Return to Directors

 

Looking at each of these:

 

1 - A CVA would need to be agreed by HMRC and Baker Tilley. Unlikey to accept less than 100%. Chances of that? ......

2 - PFC2010 is toast. Given that there's no CVA, the FL might allow the football club golden share to be transferred to a new company but with a hefty points deduction. Of course, they might not Plan B required.

3 - PFC2010 is toast. Given that there's no CVA, the FL might allow the football club golden share to be transferred to a new company but with a hefty points deduction. Or they might not - Plan B required.

4 - PFC2010 is toast. Given that there's no CVA, the FL might allow the football club golden share to be transferred to a new company but with a hefty points deduction. Or maybe not - Plan B required.

5 - Likely means debts to have been paid in full. Given there's no chance of them being able to do that on their own, it needs a massive cash injection. A takeover, essentially. Cost? Astronomical. Value to new owners? Minimal. Chances of that? .....

 

For all that's been said about trusts, supporters groups, old CVA's, consortium takeovers and Tal Ben Haim, not much has changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Groupon:

 

"They give loans to small businesses at a very steep rate (the price of the discount plus Groupon’s commission)."

 

and

 

"Groupon is essentially a sub-prime lender that does zero risk assessment."

 

Very appropriate.

 

I believe Derby County have been using Groupon to shift tickets this season, though to be fair their base support is somewhat more than those down the road.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"...literally hundreds have paid their £100 deposits." That £8m looks a long way off.

 

If "literally hundreds" means about 360 people, then they've raised just enough money to pay Tal Ben Haim's salary for one week.

 

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMWWWWWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Comment From Mike Hall

Every one get involved with the Pompey Supporters Trust. You can take out a credit deal/loan to pay for your share. Interest only 9.4%!

 

Love it :lol:

 

Really enjoyed the pompey web chat today, great fun and everything was getting through. The responses are never good enough though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right - I'll put this one back out there.

 

Speaking to future son in law about Spuds and footie and stuff, an interesting Supposition came out.

 

TB is not sure of the Validity of Chanrai's Debt/Charges.

 

So the question is WHAT is he not sure about? The Mortgage is Registered all legit. What else could he be not sure about?

 

Add in the ex trolls rants "Chinny never put no money in"

 

So the supposition is. What happens if someone finds out that the Chinny Charge is invalid because he did not pay any Consideration to Acquire the club in the first place?

 

Rule 1 Contract Law = Consideration. If the Legal Charge is valid and registered BUT TB is questioning it then SURELY logic dictates that the reason for it's existence is being questioned.

 

Now, just follow the line of thought and speculate for a moment.

 

Chinny never "legally" bought the club......................

 

ooooooh ouch

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the supposition is. What happens if someone finds out that the Chinny Charge is invalid because he did not pay any Consideration to Acquire the club in the first place?

 

Rule 1 Contract Law = Consideration. If the Legal Charge is valid and registered BUT TB is questioning it then SURELY logic dictates that the reason for it's existence is being questioned.

 

So even if he did loan them _some_ money that may not be a "Consideration"? What would be needed for it to be so considered?

 

Clapham et al have been remarkably quiet....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, just follow the line of thought and speculate for a moment.

 

Chinny never "legally" bought the club......................

 

ooooooh ouch

 

Which would mean that PFC is still owned by....erm....the previous owner.....? Or, given it was "bought" out of administration, it would revert back to UHY Hacker....?

 

All seems a bit far fetched even for me...!

 

Indeed, I'm thinking this could upset the space time continuum if Pompey are infact still owned by the previous administrator whilst being administered by the current administrator!

Edited by trousers
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right - I'll put this one back out there.

 

Speaking to future son in law about Spuds and footie and stuff, an interesting Supposition came out.

 

TB is not sure of the Validity of Chanrai's Debt/Charges.

 

So the question is WHAT is he not sure about? The Mortgage is Registered all legit. What else could he be not sure about?

 

Add in the ex trolls rants "Chinny never put no money in"

 

So the supposition is. What happens if someone finds out that the Chinny Charge is invalid because he did not pay any Consideration to Acquire the club in the first place?

 

Rule 1 Contract Law = Consideration. If the Legal Charge is valid and registered BUT TB is questioning it then SURELY logic dictates that the reason for it's existence is being questioned.

 

Now, just follow the line of thought and speculate for a moment.

 

Chinny never "legally" bought the club......................

 

ooooooh ouch

 

A I understood it ...does it matter either way? I thought the charge on the ground was levied because he was not paid in full when he 'sold' the first time round? and then he had a charge on CSI as they were paying him in installments - so in effect he has these charges because he has not been paid in full for his sale, not because he 'put money in' ???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right - I'll put this one back out there.

 

Speaking to future son in law about Spuds and footie and stuff, an interesting Supposition came out.

 

TB is not sure of the Validity of Chanrai's Debt/Charges.

 

So the question is WHAT is he not sure about? The Mortgage is Registered all legit. What else could he be not sure about?

 

Add in the ex trolls rants "Chinny never put no money in"

 

So the supposition is. What happens if someone finds out that the Chinny Charge is invalid because he did not pay any Consideration to Acquire the club in the first place?

 

Rule 1 Contract Law = Consideration. If the Legal Charge is valid and registered BUT TB is questioning it then SURELY logic dictates that the reason for it's existence is being questioned.

 

Now, just follow the line of thought and speculate for a moment.

 

Chinny never "legally" bought the club......................

 

ooooooh ouch

 

Birch is on record saying that Chinny did put money in.

 

As for challenging the validty of the charge, that is just standard practice by administrators.......

 

But the liquidator or other appointee will usually challenge your retention of title clause, even if it is valid. If you accept this, you become an unsecured creditor of the debtor – which often means you get nothing when the proceeds of sale of the business are distributed – leaving the liquidator with more for secured creditors (and his own fees).

 

http://www.lawdonut.co.uk/law/commercial-disputes/debt-recovery/getting-your-goods-back-if-you-aren-t-paid

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny webchat - some subtle posts! :lol:

 

 

Despite it looking blatantly unfair, I can understand if the failed CVA1 is no longer classed as a CVA, but is now just classed as a new creditor.

That means that punishment hasn't been avoided, it's just been suspended pending further enquiries.

 

Should creditors of CVA1 approve of being included in CVA2 under new terms, then there is perhaps no punishment to dish out, after all the creditors will have agreed to it, so pompey will be down the seafront celebrating with jellied eels and lucky heather.

 

But if CVA2 fails to get off the ground then a points penalty for CVA1 comes in like a tsunami and Birch will be picking up bits of fratton park in Paulsgrove.

Is that how we think it might work now?.....

 

And I ignore all claims by Birch or the Trust re points or debts being wiped off, nothing has been decided yet, they are just trying to plead for mercy - the old keep saying it, it might come true policy.

 

 

 

Now that we have this £8M target, let's play guess the figures again....

 

What do you reckon for a hardcore number of fans prepared to put up £1000 - up to 3,000?

Add on a handful of rich individuals and I reckon they're still approx £5M short of the target.

 

Which would suggest that the current business is beyond salvation - what a bombshell! :scared:

 

On a brighter note, let's imagine that a consortium might be able to find £1.5M - that leaves them needing maybe 3,000 hardcore support plus another 15,000 clubbing together to buy shares - then they hit the target and the champagne flows!

 

That buys the club with all of it's ongoing problems, but it leaves a consortium wanting major control, and 18,000 fans feeling they have put their cash in but they don't have a say.

 

Cue internal disputes over business direction, I would give it a month before it starts to fall apart, then again I am cynical about these things so it might be six weeks. :)

 

 

 

It's over, it really is - even when I take my little bitter blinkers off, I still can't see a way forward that works for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Yes.... It was a serious post....don't ya just love em

 

http://fansonline.net/portsmouth/mb/view.php?id=424462

 

 

This PST grand share for the club thing. What happens when we get to a F.A Cup Final again ?

 

1. do these one's that have paid a grand in to the club get all tickets rather than the season ticket holders come that time ?

 

 

 

If you dont cough up a grand and you go to Pompey Home & Away where does this leave you ? :x

 

This is a devide of rich and poor fans. Sorry but this is a bad move and cant see 8 Mill lasting long @ PFC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And Yes.... It was a serious post....don't ya just love em

 

http://fansonline.net/portsmouth/mb/view.php?id=424462

 

 

This PST grand share for the club thing. What happens when we get to a F.A Cup Final again ?

 

1. do these one's that have paid a grand in to the club get all tickets rather than the season ticket holders come that time ?

 

 

 

If you dont cough up a grand and you go to Pompey Home & Away where does this leave you ? :x

 

This is a devide of rich and poor fans. Sorry but this is a bad move and cant see 8 Mill lasting long @ PFC

 

Well to be fair - its VITAL that despite the current challenges that they look forward and try now to resolve such issues as how to distribute fairly the 25000 odd tickets they will get between the 200,000 fans who attend regularly and are to be seen clubbing together right now to save the club. TBH 8m DEVIDED by 200,000 is only £40 each - less than the price of the cheapest cup final ticket so really cant see how they will fail to raise the necessary cash.

 

Surely therefore, the fairest system right now would be to allocate a cup final voucher on a first come first served basis - eg the first 25000 who donate their £40 get to go to the next one they are in - the next 25000 the final after that and so on. Given size of the club, infrstructure and spending history, it cant be more than 20 years before all 200,000 have had their cup final?

 

Also they would in effect be a true community club with 200,000 members all having and equal vote on the serious business matters to hand - first item on the agenda must surely be fat removal from the pipes - I feel confident that within such a democratic system, they might be able to complete this vital operation by the 2018-2019 season and naturally those fans helping out with teh fat removal could qualify for the meat raffle but and one of the lucky heather concessions?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Be fair pompey are apparently in talks with 3 parties, which just leaves one tyre than need kicking.

 

Apparently the 3 parties are believed to be....:rolleyes:

 

Mr Jackson;)

 

Mr Fialka:p

 

AND

 

Parties are us:?........or is it Toys R us?:blush: that funny chap..Corp:smug: who appears from time to time:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok ... question time... If by some miracle they found a Liebherr type who invested 50 from the off to clear all current debt and existing CVA... would we consider this the end of cheating and wish them good luck in L1? :scared::uhoh:

 

No..........they are still cheats, you can't airbrush the last 13 years out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They have, and we've had 10 points deducted for going into administration, so as Birch has confirmed, no more points deductions...

 

Pointless (!) deducting points from a liquidated club perhaps? However were the 'club' to survive there are far too many precedents for this not to happen despite what the man who's trying to find a buyer for the club might say...I mean he'd have no reason for saying it would he...and of course that statement has been confirmed by the FL hasn't it?

 

Oh..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No..........they are still cheats, you can't airbrush the last 13 years out.

 

Oh have a heart Ginge join me:

 

Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high,

200,000 fans are singing, pompey till I die.

 

twas not our fault,

twas evil men

said they had

much cash to spend

 

So we spent

so much on players

with Strorrie tellers

like Dorothy Sayers (well only thing I could get to Rhyme)

 

We won the cup

its what we likes (sic)

but still no cash

to clean the pipes

 

We all now suffer

from PST

the saviour

will bring ecstacy

 

No punishment

says Birch our friend

no FL rule

no sticky end

 

We dance around

in fits glee

laugh at scum

'cos we cant see

 

The lessons that have not been learned

and why we got our fingers burned

 

We're stupid cheats, we're thick as ****

and we dont care one little bit

 

Sod them all, the ones we owed

its time we reap what we have sowed (poetic license clained for 'sowed')

 

Gord Bless Em

Edited by Frank's cousin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok ... question time... If by some miracle they found a Liebherr type who invested 50 from the off to clear all current debt and existing CVA... would we consider this the end of cheating and wish them good luck in L1? :scared::uhoh:
maybe wish them luck, but not good luck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Birch is on record saying that Chinny did put money in.

 

As for challenging the validty of the charge, that is just standard practice by administrators.......

 

But the liquidator or other appointee will usually challenge your retention of title clause, even if it is valid. If you accept this, you become an unsecured creditor of the debtor – which often means you get nothing when the proceeds of sale of the business are distributed – leaving the liquidator with more for secured creditors (and his own fees).

 

http://www.lawdonut.co.uk/law/commercial-disputes/debt-recovery/getting-your-goods-back-if-you-aren-t-paid

 

 

 

TB is on record as saying Chinny put money in.. But when?

 

Putting a few hundred grand in a few years after you did the purhcase unless that is linked in the Sale Agreement

 

It is just an entertaining train of thought that lets you examine each step along the way. Pick any single one and a what if comes roaring in like a ton of lawsuits.

 

Who first brought the club from whom and how?

 

What if AA made a Compliance error in CVA1 Brown trousers at UHY if HMRC found a gem - lawsuits for the 30 odd mil...

 

Did Chinny actually even PAY one pound to BUY the club "legally speaking" or is the possible challenge because of the leverage.

 

So Al Fahim never bought the club of Sacha or Chinny from AA so what then happens to everything that happened after that point? Illegally appointed Directors?

 

The list of possibilities is endless

 

And the people at risk from HMRC going after the money rises.

 

It may not just be PST who await the Chanrai security issue.

 

What a lovely Catch-22 that would be "Well PST we can let you have the club for 1 pound as that is all it is worth" But to do that we have to admit the past 4 years have been the greatest breach of Corporate Compliance the UK has ever seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

from all the guesswork and disinformation dressed up as facts by the pompey Trust I wouldn't have much confidence in their ability to operate an exclusive lucky heather franchise at Wickham fair.

 

I'm sure they do all have high powered dayjobs - but from their business plan I suspect for some it involves the comedic delivery of a cumbersome piano up a spiral staircase, with regular breaks for cups of PG Tips.

 

Buyout for a quid?

Play hardball with arms dealers and loan sharks and shoo them away with a sh1tty stick?

I think you're getting into the realms of fantasy there Jones.

 

The dreamers and tyre-kickers are now IN the building, they might have good intentions, but the Trust is raising hopes and misleading the fanbase just as much as previous regimes.

It may just be desperation, or it may be the lack of a proper business plan or a blend of the two, but either way it makes little sense and many of the few have noticed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...