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Pompey Takeover Saga


Fitzhugh Fella

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Should they come out of admin without a CVA then there will be more points taken off, but I seriously doubt points will go for any other reason.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. Points deductions aren't given solely for administration and insolvency events - just ask Luton Town.

 

Now that there is an independent and professional administrator in place, a thorough investigation of the goings on of the last few years might actually take place and if 'irregularities' are found then they might find themselves hit with further deductions.

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I wouldn't be so sure. Points deductions aren't given solely for administration and insolvency events - just ask Luton Town.

 

Now that there is an independent and professional administrator in place, a thorough investigation of the goings on of the last few years might actually take place and if 'irregularities' are found then they might find themselves hit with further deductions.

 

Good point, but why would the administrator reveal irregularities that would hand the club a greater points penalty thereby making the club less attractive to purchase and provide creditors, which it is acting for, with less return? What is Birch's motivation there? If the FA sent in a team of investigators and found something then yes of course, but in all this time has the Premier League, Football League, FA, or even the police actually sent anyone in to look at the books and reveal anything?

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to me...it seems we were punished in a harsher way....we both got -10 yet our hit us in the very next season and probably cost us an immediate return to the NPC

 

they are ridiculously in debt (again) had no intention of playing by the rules and their points deduction (thus far) does not even put them in the bottom 3!!!!

 

I really hope there is more to come for them

 

Even though the -10 points hit us hard in our first season in league 1, I believe in the long run it has done the club good as it gave us time to rebuild confidence and team morale and prepare us for the assault on the Championship this season. I wonder if we would have been suitably prepared had we got promoted in our first season in league 1 and would we have had NA as manager?

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Easy to just make the distinction between the secured and unsecured creditors. Then you can say categorically that not a penny has been paid to the unsecured creditors via the CVA.

 

Not to mention that the reason why they have paid the football creditors is that they did not have a choice.

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Interesting comment by the judge, as reported in todays Times:

 

"Mr Justice Norris criticised the football creditors’ rule, which is subject to a separate legal challenge by HMRC. “People who do pay their energy bills and the ordinary traders who provide services would wonder why they should subsidise the club’s wage bill. Why it is that they’re involuntary loans to the club of their outstanding bills and why they will only get back pence in the pound for the services they have provided?” he said.

He questioned whether directors were guilty of wrongful trading. Despite the demise of CSI, which the judge said had provided a “blood transfusion” to a bleeding business, the club paid its players in full for November and December knowing it could not cover the £812,790 monthly PAYE bill."

 

He must have been following this thread...

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let's get to the detail here.

 

1. The penalty for their Premier League administration didn't cost them a single league place.

2. This time their punishment thus far, is to drop three league places. :?

 

 

I'm not sure that a one and a half places drop per administration is that harsh - the places to £millions stolen ratio is quite hefty in their favour and would suggest that crime does pay.

 

This time it might be different in that the punishment will come slowly through an administrator trying to drag the business back from the criminality of deliberate and blatant insolvent trading.

 

If he has the intention and acumen to reduce the squad, then we will start to see justice.

 

In the last two days plucky pompey has told us that their injury crisis is so deep that they need emergency loans because they might not be able to fulfill the fixture today.

All part of the plea for mercy from the football authorities - and it worked.

 

So I await their team sheet with interest...just 11 fit players was the number quoted the other day, we'll see if they can muster up a sub or two from the yoof.

 

Or perhaps we'll see some miraculous recoveries and a nice away win for their expensively-assembled squad?

As an annoyed Lord Sugar Tweeted it, business as usual.

 

I'll consider sympathy when the leopard demonstrates that it has changed it's spots because I reckon they have conned the FL this week.

But I'm cynical like that. :)

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That's not the way I see it. The new admin either must pay the first installment when it is due, or liquidate them, unless the CVA creditor's representative agrees to postpone it. He cannot add anything to the list of creditors. So if Baker Tilley (HMRC) demand their money in April, they must pay it.

 

Significantly, yesterday's result puts HMRC in complete control of their fate. That's what AA was trying to tell the skate. They will get their pound of flesh or PFC will be gone. Their pound of flesh is what they are owed under the old CVA c.£5m plus 100% of the current debt. And all their tax will be paid in the meantime.

 

I've got a feeling HMRC won't be as bullish now they've got "their man" in place as administrator.

 

I think their main beef with Pompey was with the dubious people running the joint - it was not just about the debt per se.

 

Now they've got AA out of the way (to a certain degree) and they start to see PFC being run in a mote professional manner I believe HMRC will be more inclined to give Pompey some space and time.

 

We'll see. All good fun nonetheless

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Good point, but why would the administrator reveal irregularities that would hand the club a greater points penalty thereby making the club less attractive to purchase and provide creditors, which it is acting for, with less return? What is Birch's motivation there? If the FA sent in a team of investigators and found something then yes of course, but in all this time has the Premier League, Football League, FA, or even the police actually sent anyone in to look at the books and reveal anything?

 

We're given to understand that TB is a fresh face and has integrity. Displayed in court by his reluctance to work with AA because of their 'differing views on compliance'. However, the previous example of integrity, no less than the ex FA Head Of Integrity, proved that Integrity may be a subjective view.

 

On the one hand TB will be looking to gain the best return to the creditors. However, if he uncovers any financial impropriety then, as a man of integrity, he will be duty bound to report it, not the least than to protect his very self!

 

I felt disappointed at the level of points deduction but I am bouyed by TB's appointment. I think the scramble in the court for the Administrator's role, specifically on AA's part, gave away the fact that there may be a lot of 'uncompleted work' with the DFCSB empire. Happily he will not be around to cover his tracks!

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Interesting comment by the judge, as reported in todays Times:

 

"Mr Justice Norris criticised the football creditors’ rule, which is subject to a separate legal challenge by HMRC. “People who do pay their energy bills and the ordinary traders who provide services would wonder why they should subsidise the club’s wage bill. Why it is that they’re involuntary loans to the club of their outstanding bills and why they will only get back pence in the pound for the services they have provided?” he said.

He questioned whether directors were guilty of wrongful trading. Despite the demise of CSI, which the judge said had provided a “blood transfusion” to a bleeding business, the club paid its players in full for November and December knowing it could not cover the £812,790 monthly PAYE bill."

 

He must have been following this thread...

he appears to be making strong suggestions but to what end? No formal investigation was put in place or were his hints to be headed by someone else who would have been in court?

 

It's all very well him saying the football creditors rule is ridiculous, but that case has been heard.

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I've got a feeling HMRC won't be as bullish now they've got "their man" in place as administrator.

 

I think their main beef with Pompey was with the dubious people running the joint - it was not just about the debt per se.

 

Now they've got AA out of the way (to a certain degree) and they start to see PFC being run in a mote professional manner I believe HMRC will be more inclined to give Pompey some space and time.

 

We'll see. All good fun nonetheless

 

Why?...HMRC are not in the football game! they collect taxes for the Government. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, that HMRC is footballs worst enemy at the moment. So sorry Trousers, I beg to disagree here, I still feel that they are out to give the football elite a bloody nose.

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Good point, but why would the administrator reveal irregularities that would hand the club a greater points penalty thereby making the club less attractive to purchase and provide creditors, which it is acting for, with less return? What is Birch's motivation there? If the FA sent in a team of investigators and found something then yes of course, but in all this time has the Premier League, Football League, FA, or even the police actually sent anyone in to look at the books and reveal anything?

 

Of course Mr Birch will be wanting to make the club as attractive an investment as possible, that's a given. But to do so he must thoroughly review the accounts and determine the extent of the company's financial situation first, and if he were to cover up anything he found that could be viewed as either against FL rules or, worse, against the law then he would be just as guilty as the shysters that have placed the club in its current position. Perhaps I am being naive, but considering he has been placed there by the court at the request of HMRC, I don't believe he would risk his credibility in that way.

 

Edit: I see ESB has already made exactly the same point.

Edited by Sheaf Saint
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They almost certainly won't be able to sell players. However, the "emergency" loan window is open until mid-to-late March, so there's the option for players to go out on loan for up to 93 days, and clubs may or may not be willing to pay a loan fee as well as cover all or part of the wages. The other option for them would be to ask the players to take wage deferrals.

 

"Dear player, if you don't go or accept the deferral I'll have no choice but to liquidate, and so the golden share and the football creditors rule will be irrelevant. You'll take your chance as a creditor with all the rest...."

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Ok SWFers - It's PTS Game Time, and todays question is.........

 

In the event of liquidation, what is PFC (2010) Ltd's greatest salable asset, ignoring anything that would fall inside the football creditors rule?

 

My answer is the accounts departments Fax Machine, but that's only because I think the Photocopy is leased.

 

Any other takers?

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It's all very well him saying the football creditors rule is ridiculous, but that case has been heard.

 

But a decision has yet to be announced. Another judge saying in open court that he disagrees with it can't hurt HMRC's case.

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I wouldn't be so sure. Points deductions aren't given solely for administration and insolvency events - just ask Luton Town.

 

Now that there is an independent and professional administrator in place, a thorough investigation of the goings on of the last few years might actually take place and if 'irregularities' are found then they might find themselves hit with further deductions.

 

Isn't there a conflict of interest with that scenario as far as the administrator is concerned?

 

In other words, if the administrator unearths said "irregularities" he has two options: (a) declare them and make the club less attractive to a buyer or (b) keeps them under his hat to preserve the saleability of the club.

 

Yes, I know (b) is somewhat dubious practice but why would an administrator reveal bad stuff that he's not legally obliged to do so if it jeopardised the number of potential buyers coming forward.

 

As I say, conflict of interest?

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Good point, but why would the administrator reveal irregularities that would hand the club a greater points penalty thereby making the club less attractive to purchase and provide creditors, which it is acting for, with less return? What is Birch's motivation there? If the FA sent in a team of investigators and found something then yes of course, but in all this time has the Premier League, Football League, FA, or even the police actually sent anyone in to look at the books and reveal anything?

 

Ah, should have read your post first!

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Meanwhile in Scotland....

 

The Scottish Football Association have confirmed they will conduct a full independent inquiry into the activities of Rangers.

 

Last night, it emerged that Rangers and Mr Whyte could face a criminal inquiry after Strathclyde Police confirmed it was looking into what had gone on behind the gates of Ibrox – and former club chairman Alastair Johnston called for a Crown Office investigation.

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102605/Glasgow-Rangers-face-criminal-investigation-missing-24m-loan-fans.html#ixzz1mjGuerUa

 

The authorities seem more interested to find out what was really going on up there.

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Isn't there a conflict of interest with that scenario as far as the administrator is concerned?

 

In other words, if the administrator unearths said "irregularities" he has two options: (a) declare them and make the club less attractive to a buyer or (b) keeps them under his hat to preserve the saleability of the club.

 

Yes, I know (b) is somewhat dubious practice but why would an administrator reveal bad stuff that he's not legally obliged to do so if it jeopardised the number of potential buyers coming forward.

 

As I say, conflict of interest?

 

TB's standing in the game is so high that there is no way he will cover anything up. He is a 'Professional'.

 

Also, bear in mind that he is there due to HMRC and they don't have a whole lot of interest in getting any money out. In my view they want to make an example. They won't agree with a CVA and will still quite happily see PFC go to the wall. Finding irregularities won't bother his sponsor in the slightest.

Edited by Winchester Red
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Interesting comment by the judge, as reported in todays Times:

 

"Mr Justice Norris criticised the football creditors’ rule, which is subject to a separate legal challenge by HMRC. “People who do pay their energy bills and the ordinary traders who provide services would wonder why they should subsidise the club’s wage bill. Why it is that they’re involuntary loans to the club of their outstanding bills and why they will only get back pence in the pound for the services they have provided?” he said.

He questioned whether directors were guilty of wrongful trading. Despite the demise of CSI, which the judge said had provided a “blood transfusion” to a bleeding business, the club paid its players in full for November and December knowing it could not cover the £812,790 monthly PAYE bill."

 

He must have been following this thread...

 

So, whose job is it to prosecute the PFC management/director(s) for trading whilst insolvent? I assume this is why Akers left when he did...?

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Why?...HMRC are not in the football game! they collect taxes for the Government. In fact, I'd go as far as to say, that HMRC is footballs worst enemy at the moment. So sorry Trousers, I beg to disagree here, I still feel that they are out to give the football elite a bloody nose.

 

Maybe. But I think we underestimate the "plucky old Pompey" tag that they've built up and the strings that politicians (led by Money Penny and Portsmouth Council) can pull.

 

My working assumption is, and always has been, that they'll "get away with it".

 

I'd be delighted to be proved wrong of course!

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Good point, but why would the administrator reveal irregularities that would hand the club a greater points penalty thereby making the club less attractive to purchase and provide creditors, which it is acting for, with less return? What is Birch's motivation there? If the FA sent in a team of investigators and found something then yes of course, but in all this time has the Premier League, Football League, FA, or even the police actually sent anyone in to look at the books and reveal anything?

 

Am I mistaken, or as there not to be a forensic investigation of PFC's account when Oldco was liquidated? There seems to have been a deafening silence about anything being unveiled there, so why would another administrator turn up anything that had hitherto not been uncovered?

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Am I mistaken, or as there not to be a forensic investigation of PFC's account when Oldco was liquidated? There seems to have been a deafening silence about anything being unveiled there, so why would another administrator turn up anything that had hitherto not been uncovered?

 

Baker Tilly were carrying out the examination of PCFC's books following its liquidation; they were also administering the CVA. I've no idea what's happened with this investigation, but I'd imagine that these things move very slowly. It's also possible that little remained by way of paper trails once the Oldco went into liquidation, which would slow any investigation pretty significantly.

 

PKF will be examining the books of PFC2010, which is a totally different company, so they won't turn up anything from the old company. There won't be so much to go through at PFC2010, as the company has only been in existance for a relatively short period. However, they'll have plenty to get their teeth into I'd have thought; not least of this will be the question of insolvent trading, given that the business paid its staff two months running without paying HMRC. As administrators, they are duty bound to report on all that they find; unlike Mr Andronikou, they're likely to take this duty seriously.

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"Dear player, if you don't go or accept the deferral I'll have no choice but to liquidate, and so the golden share and the football creditors rule will be irrelevant. You'll take your chance as a creditor with all the rest...."

 

"Dear Mr. Birch. We'll take our chances. Worst case is that our contracts are ripped ud and we score a hefty sign-on fee somewhere else"...

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This is Pompey's third admin

 

Shouldnt theyget some sort of recognition for this along with some of the other persistent offenders which, to be fair, are generally to be found in the lower leagues?

 

It really should be three strikes and you're out

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We're given to understand that TB is a fresh face and has integrity. Displayed in court by his reluctance to work with AA because of their 'differing views on compliance'. However, the previous example of integrity, no less than the ex FA Head Of Integrity, proved that Integrity may be a subjective view.

 

On the one hand TB will be looking to gain the best return to the creditors. However, if he uncovers any financial impropriety then, as a man of integrity, he will be duty bound to report it, not the least than to protect his very self!

 

I felt disappointed at the level of points deduction but I am bouyed by TB's appointment. I think the scramble in the court for the Administrator's role, specifically on AA's part, gave away the fact that there may be a lot of 'uncompleted work' with the DFCSB empire. Happily he will not be around to cover his tracks!

 

I *wonder* what UHY were doing at Farton Krap yesterday then?

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Could someone pitch why legitimate owners will now be interested in PFC?

 

This is their only hope of survival yes? A proper administrator will do everything to get them running as a proper business, not cheating and not breaking the law, right? They have no real assets, the fanbase thing is a myth. Legitimate owners weren't interested in the past, it still needs massive investment just to get started, before the huge investment needed to get infrastructure even up to average championship standard. So it'd probably be 100m or more required with little hope of return on investment.

 

Why are they confident this will happen? I'm open to any ideas.

 

All I can see is a club in turmoil that's been hiding as much as possible and a new administrator about to investigate every little detail. Yet they're all celebrating. I must have missed something. Whether things are going to get better or not though, I don't know many people that would have the nerve to celebrate 'getting away with it' yet again. Some won't ever believe it, but I'd be embarrassed and 100% would have taken my support elsewhere long ago. PFC and their actions have put me off football more than anything in the last few years, if it had been Saints I really couldn't face it anymore. There comes a point when surely you have to question 'just what the hell is it I'm supporting?'.

 

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusion

"A delusion is a belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence.[1] Unlike hallucinations, delusions are always pathological (the result of an illness or illness process).[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, poor memory, illusion, or other effects of perception."

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Could someone pitch why legitimate owners will now be interested in PFC?

 

I could imagine Cortese being interested - not in the football club itself, which will close, but in the right to put, in very small letters, 'incorporating Portsmouth FC' under the club logo.

 

The only difference we'd notice is that St Mary's would be the only major football stadium in the country with two way ends.

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Ok SWFers - It's PTS Game Time, and todays question is.........

 

In the event of liquidation, what is PFC (2010) Ltd's greatest salable asset, ignoring anything that would fall inside the football creditors rule?

 

My answer is the accounts departments Fax Machine, but that's only because I think the Photocopy is leased.

 

Any other takers?

Their spirit.

 

I think there's half a bottle of Bells left in Lampitt's office.

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I could imagine Cortese being interested - not in the football club itself, which will close, but in the right to put, in very small letters, 'incorporating Portsmouth FC' under the club logo.

 

The only difference we'd notice is that St Mary's would be the only major football stadium in the country with two way ends.

Dont even joke about it, we'd never get the fishy smell out before our game

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ANDREW Andronikou wished Pompey ‘the very best’ for the future after losing out as the club’s administrator.

But Mr Andronikou, who works for UHY Hacker Young – administrators of Pompey’s parent company Convers Sports Initiatives – claims some large creditors will oppose PKF’s appointment as Pompey’s administrators in the short-term.

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs yesterday challenged the appointment of Mr Andronikou on the grounds it would be a conflict of interest and not in the best interests of Portsmouth taxpayers.

Mr Justice Alastair Norris appointed PKF as administrators instead.

Mr Andronikou said: ‘The club’s immediate future is at least secure.

‘We wish the club the very best and hope a new purchaser comes forward to bring the stability the club deserves.’

He added: ‘I am aware that a number of large creditors will be making an appeal to have PKF removed in the short term.

‘As far as UHY is concerned, we have always acted in the best interests of the club and had opened up, over the past few months, a number of dialogues with various parties, which we should have been allowed to bring to fruition.

‘Nothwithstanding we will always be here to support the club going forward.’

 

 

Chinny to appeal PKF appointment ......

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ANDREW Andronikou wished Pompey ‘the very best’ for the future after losing out as the club’s administrator.

But Mr Andronikou, who works for UHY Hacker Young – administrators of Pompey’s parent company Convers Sports Initiatives – claims some large creditors will oppose PKF’s appointment as Pompey’s administrators in the short-term.

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs yesterday challenged the appointment of Mr Andronikou on the grounds it would be a conflict of interest and not in the best interests of Portsmouth taxpayers.

Mr Justice Alastair Norris appointed PKF as administrators instead.

Mr Andronikou said: ‘The club’s immediate future is at least secure.

‘We wish the club the very best and hope a new purchaser comes forward to bring the stability the club deserves.’

He added: ‘I am aware that a number of large creditors will be making an appeal to have PKF removed in the short term.

‘As far as UHY is concerned, we have always acted in the best interests of the club and had opened up, over the past few months, a number of dialogues with various parties, which we should have been allowed to bring to fruition.

‘Nothwithstanding we will always be here to support the club going forward.’

 

 

Chinny to appeal PKF appointment ......

 

Given that he is the administrator of csi and has never had a formal appointment over the current company, my first question would be to as why he has had the best interests of the club in mind and not the best interests of csi's creditors...

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IF(and it is an if) Thorne has signed on loan and WBA are paying all of his wages that's exactly what Pompey should be doing

 

I don't think they should be allowed to sign anyone to strengthen their position. They need to be punished and I cannot see any punishments happening. At the moment just a messily 10 point deduction and the ability reopened to sign players. It's mental.

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