Sheaf Saint Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 It's been at least 3 hours now since the court approved Pompey's request for administration. Why haven't the FL deducted the 10 points yet? I realise they may be waiting to see if they can deduct any more, but they have rules that must be followed and there can be no doubt whatsoever that Pompey have now enacted an insolvency event which should immediately trigger a 10-pt deduction - regardless of what further deductions there might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 (edited) Yep, brilliant result and at last a chance to get Chainrai out at a price a new owner can afford. Brian and vince, come on down! Yep, the day that a Pompey fan is happy to see the organisation that wanted to wind them up getting their way in court is a reminder of just how entertaining this thread has been and will continue to be. It's what is known in the trade as a 'win win' Edited 17 February, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 AA. AA has now been released from PFC Admin, so he can now resume his rescue of the Greek Economy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 It's been at least 3 hours now since the court approved Pompey's request for administration. Why haven't the FL deducted the 10 points yet? I realise they may be waiting to see if they can deduct any more, but they have rules that must be followed and there can be no doubt whatsoever that Pompey have now enacted an insolvency event which should immediately trigger a 10-pt deduction - regardless of what further deductions there might be. As you allude to, they are probably in discussions right now as to whether they should deduct more than 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 As you allude to, they are probably in discussions right now as to whether they should deduct more than 10. But I want to see the revised table with the little asterisk next to Pompey NOW!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 all very interesting CSI own PFC so not quite sure how Birch can find a new owner for PFC without CSI administrator agreeing, if AA does not agree to potential new owners he mounts a legal challenge. CSI biggest Creditor is Portpin(BC) who will want his money from somewhere this thread could run for another 1000 pages in a few months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony13579 Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 PFC (the debt junkie) has just entered rehab. Can it suvive cold turkey... watch this space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 AA has now been released from PFC Admin, so he can now resume his rescue of the Greek Economy still administrator of CSI who own PFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Clare Semke@pn_clare_semke Quote from David Lampitt: "The club needs a new owner. All the fans wd agree that having the right owner rather than the one with the biggest wallet is what we need. That wd be the best outcome for the football club." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 The FL might just be concerned about setting a precedent for the future that multiple administrations, in this case 2 in less than 2 years, only attracts the standard 10 point penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 should be at least 20. remember that last points deduction made f-all difference to them in the end anyway as they still would have finished bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 CSI biggest Creditor is Portpin(BC) who will want his money from somewhere How about the £17m that Portsmouth Football Club (2010) Ltd owe CSI.....? You know, the loan from Portpin that the judge thought sounded a bit dubious..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Anyone have a brief summary of their (PFC) alledged debt? £xxM to CSI £xxM to Chanrai for the Fratton mortgage £xxM to HMRC £xxm to other creditors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Emma Judd@pn_Emma_Judd Football League says #Pompey points loss will be discussed at its next disciplinary meeting, date to be arranged. Statement will be issued. This can only mean that it's not a simple case of "-10" then. Of course, that's not to say it won't end up being -10 but this tells me there is a desire for a greater punishment IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Debt to CSI is £16.8m, according to today's hearing. Debt to OldCo liquidators (Baker Tilley) is 16.5m HMRC only £2m. Other trade creditors £2m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 CSI owe Portpin £18m, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 @ollybirchpfc Reply Retweet Favorite · Open Judge questioning why it has taken so long for Pompey to go into admin when we've had no money ollybirchpfc Reply Retweet Favorite · Open Pompey and judge discussing conflict of interest Presumably a cynical judgement of what the market would bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 In other news, another potential suitor for Pompey has been thwarted.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17076378 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Debt to CSI is £16.8m, according to today's hearing. Debt to OldCo liquidators (Baker Tilley) is 16.5m HMRC only £2m. Other trade creditors £2m. CSI owe Portpin £18m, IIRC. Is this additional to your first numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Yep, the £18m is what CSI owe(d) Chinny for PFC. Payable in installments, secured against Fratton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 @pn_neil_allen: Seems there were actually UHY staff at Fratton today when news filtered in of chosen #Pompey administrator. Oh dear, pack up your files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 all very interesting CSI own PFC so not quite sure how Birch can find a new owner for PFC without CSI administrator agreeing, if AA does not agree to potential new owners he mounts a legal challenge. CSI biggest Creditor is Portpin(BC) who will want his money from somewhere this thread could run for another 1000 pages in a few months CSI being the shareholder of the company and Andronikou being the administrator of the shareholder is no more in a position to determine the buyer than Lowe and co were when SLH was in admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfc123 Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigShadow Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 @pn_neil_allen: Seems there were actually UHY staff at Fratton today when news filtered in of chosen #Pompey administrator. Oh dear, pack up your files. Hmmmm - perfectly placed to remove evidence in case things didn't go their way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? Best ask Corp as he is the font of all knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marsdinho Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? Who gives a f&ck, you still need an owner sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toomer Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 IMO this is just a stay of execution, if Birch can keep PFC afloat till the end of the season he will and he has not got a buyer to come in by July he could well turn the lights out for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 all very interesting CSI own PFC so not quite sure how Birch can find a new owner for PFC without CSI administrator agreeing, if AA does not agree to potential new owners he mounts a legal challenge. CSI biggest Creditor is Portpin(BC) who will want his money from somewhere this thread could run for another 1000 pages in a few months I agree Mike, there is much rejoicing down the road that they have rid themselves of BC and AA but of course they have not. PFC is a wholly owned subsidiary of CSI and CSI is admin under the control of AA and owing, it is believed, £17m to BC. CSI has no other meaningful assets so BC can only recover his money from CSI if AA can sell PFC or if TB can find a buyer that AA agrees to sell to! AA can veto any sale TB wants and can enforce any sale that TB does not want. TB cannot sell what is not his to sell! If TB can cut costs to a point where PFC is of a sustainable size and structure that its 12k gates can support, presumably in L1, and get the main creditors paid off, or at least satisfied, then PFC can exit administration but they will still be a wholly owned subsidiary of CSI under the control of AA! AA can now let TB do the hard work for him so that he and BC can the profit from it. I am sure this was not BC's preferred scenario but one he will happily go along with if TB looks like delivering the goods. BC still can't really lose. If TB turns PFC round and it makes a profit (!!!!) then the profits go to the owners, CSI, who can replay BC. That is more likely to happen than profits being re-invested in PFC. If TB finds a buyer, the proceeds go to CSI who pay off BC. If PFC cannot be rescued and is liquidated then BC has ownership of Farton and if there was anything left over from the liquidation it will go to the owners CSI who can use to pay BC! So, to all those PFC 'fans' celebrating a victory today, I would say remember celebrating your cup final win? Well, enjoy it now because BC is still there and still wants his money and one way or another he will get it. The added problem now is that the lion is injured and is therefore even more dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? According to Lampitt & AA (*chortle*), I thought Pompey had a cashflow problem, not a debt problem per se....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 as long as they lose tomorrow, they are guaranteed to be in the bottom 3 (with the -10 of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Taking off my red and white glasses, this is the best solution all round. It might not mean the end of Chinny, that depends on whether his £17mil is secured. But it will mean a proper orderly admin, where his debt will be dealt with in the correct manner. With advanced parachute payments, they should be able to struggle on and complete the season, something that is important to the league and most non Saints football supporters. It is best not to have clubs fold in the middle of the season. I just feel that the whole future of their club will boil down to the leagl position of Chinny's debt. If they can walk away from that, or pay 10p in the £, then they may have half a chance of getting out of this. With it still hanging over them, there is no way anybody is going to invest unless they are complete and utter loons, or a potless chancer/mafia. Bearing in mind they now have a proper admin, there's no way anything shady will be allowed to happen. We are reaching the end game, whther it is the end of the club or the end of their problems only time will tell. But had AA been allowed to become admin, we'd be in the same boat this time next year as AA keeps the club on life support until Chinny gets all his money back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 I feel happy about this because it'll stop the rampant cheating that we all despise so much about PFC. Not sure whether they will survive because both Chinny and Birch can still reach for the off switch but at least the festering corruption has been removed. It will be interesting to see how the Blue Few react to the inevitable player reductions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katalinic Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 (edited) IMO this is just a stay of execution, if Birch can keep PFC afloat till the end of the season he will and he has not got a buyer to come in by July he could well turn the lights out for good. Agreed, worse case scenario for them they still go under. Best case, they get an owner and remain a small club flitting around League One at best with no infrastructure behind them i.e. where they were pre-Mandaric. One thing is for sure, our supremacy as the Hampshire's top club will be unchallenged for many many years to come, their brief moment out of our shadow has well and truly passed and it just shows what happens when idiots get ideas above their station. Edited 17 February, 2012 by Katalinic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? Well I guess that just leaves : £16.8m to CSI £16m to Baker Tilley for the old CVA £1.8m to HMRC £1.8m to the players and staff. £3 or £4m??? to Gaydamak Plus ongoing costs of circa £2.6m per month ALONE for wages, NI and TAX!!! So, not a lot then, and certainly makes the club MUCH more saleable than it was Looks like you'll be alright after all....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 PFC is a wholly owned subsidiary of CSI and CSI is admin under the control of AA and owing, it is believed, £17m to BC. But doesn't the ownership change when in admin? I thought the shares became worthless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Surely the administrator of PFC is effectively now the independent owner of PFC and the shareholders have now lost control. If there is a sale then if there is a balance available it will go to the administrator of CSI. Initially there will have to be a CVA and a sale with the present debt cancelled, or no CVA and the probable liquidation of the club unless a buyer takes the debt on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Emma Judd@pn_Emma_Judd Football League says #Pompey points loss will be discussed at its next disciplinary meeting, date to be arranged. Statement will be issued. This can only mean that it's not a simple case of "-10" then. Of course, that's not to say it won't end up being -10 but this tells me there is a desire for a greater punishment IMO Satisfied with the impending minus ten now trousers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 (edited) http://www.pompeytrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=373:pst-statement-170212&catid=34:demo-category POMPEY SUPPORTERS TRUST STATEMENT ON PORTSMOUTH FOOTBALL CLUB ENTERING ADMINISTRATION Following the decision from Judge Alistair Norris to allow Portsmouth Football Club to enter Administration the PST will seek to meet with the Administrators from PKF, Brian Jackson and Trevor Birch, as soon as possible to discuss the way forward. The Judge, in making his decision, has stood up for local and small business' that have been badly affected by successive Administrations. We are pleased that PKF have been appointed as they have a proven track record of successfully working with football clubs in trouble. Penny Mordaunt wrote to HMRC asking them to oppose UHY as Administrators this time round, this is what she had to say and in particular about the PST. "It is vital that the administrator appointed makes use of all the opportunities to provide the maximum return to creditors, including HMRC. This must include engagement with the Pompey Supporters’ Trust and the wider community. PST, ably supported by Supporters Direct, has much to offer: it has built a huge network of support and it has the capacity to rapidly survey its contacts in order to raising funds for a community buy-out. At other clubs supporters’ trust members have volunteered to fulfil roles vacated by staff so that games can proceed and revenue is not lost. I have no confidence that UHY Hacker Young would properly or genuinely work with the Trust. This has been demonstrated by UHY Hacker Young’s refusal to allow the Trust access to the Club’s financial information to enable it to prepare a bid to buy a stake in the Club unless it could demonstrate that it had access to £100m." The PST believe that the time has come for Portsmouth Football Club to be owned by the City and Community, and a new model of ownership should be developed which will make sure the shameful events of the past few years are not repeated. Pompey fans never want to see their club in court in these circumstances again. ENDS Edited 17 February, 2012 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Well I guess that just leaves : £16.8m to CSI £16m to Baker Tilley for the old CVA £1.8m to HMRC £1.8m to the players and staff. £3 or £4m??? to Gaydamak Plus ongoing costs of circa £2.6m per month ALONE for wages, NI and TAX!!! So, not a lot then, and certainly makes the club MUCH more saleable than it was Looks like you'll be alright after all....... I do not in any way, profess to know what the hell is going on, it seems that the die come down double six every time, where Poopey are concerned. However, did someone not post on here, what seems like years ago, that the whole of the old CVA debt now becomes liable. So many theorys posted as fact, it's a job to keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Satisfied with the impending minus ten now trousers? Yes thanks. That horse I was on was far too high for my liking.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 (edited) In other news, another potential suitor for Pompey has been thwarted.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17076378 Yes I saw that, big scale fraud huh! Meanwhile back at the French Central Bank they're about to definitively shift the 500 million euros in unclaimed euros/francs exchanges to the + column of our national budget. Means that 3 billion + in old franc notes have just gone missing or are being hoarded up by collectors (and silly old ladies) somewhere.But people do hoard stuff don't they, especially if some of it is ill-gotten, the other day they found a million euros worth of old gold coins in the suspended ceiling of an old workmans cottage. Pompey should start up rooting floor boards and stuff. Edited 17 February, 2012 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/lampitt_sees_his_future_at_fratton_1_3535891 Is this the best quote ever: 'I absolutely see my long-term future being with Portsmouth Football Club, to get the club to where we are today after what happened in 2010 and with everything that has been going on in the background recently is quite an achievement.’ Erm Mr Armpit, you have been nothing other than a disaster to date . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 But doesn't the ownership change when in admin? I thought the shares became worthless? I guess this is difficult because we are not party to the governing documents but it is my understanding, and I am happy to be wrong, that if PFC was a stand alone limited company with shares then, yes, the shares would be worthless and the administrators would be in control just as they are at CSI under AA. However, PFC was not independent and is part of CSI so I imagine as the administrators are in control of CSI assets and they are 'owners' of PFC. As with everything at PFC nothing is straight forward. I still say PFC fans should be wary of the wounded lion licking his wounds and looking for his meal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 I think PFC own Fratton Park but there is a charge on it. Now it is in Administration that is another debt that can't be actioned until there is a final reckoning. The CVA could be a bunfight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_John Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Even if the Court Case isn't going to take place on Monday it is still nice to see Winding Up order in the High Court. THE DAILY LIST COMPANIES COURT Monday 20th February 2012 Court 30 Fifth Floor The Rolls Building Before MR REGISTRAR NICHOLLS ROBED .... Not before 11.30am .... 24 /2012 Portsmouth Football Club (2012) Limited http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/hearing-lists/list-companies-winding-up.htm Who is the 2012 Club ? Did I miss the 2010 club being WU already and this is the next one being WU. (? if they hadn't gone into Admin today would that winding up order have been actioned as it lists the wrong Company name ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowllyd Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 So then, how much of the total debt is now secured bearing in mind the judge said there was no evidence to support Chainrai's claim to a £17m debenture? What will happen regarding Chainrai's debenture remains to be seen. If it can be shown to be invalid (which will mean that proof would have to be found that no money passed from Portpin to PFC in 2009) then presumably it is simply struck out. However, I have no idea of the niceties of such things. The other issue, as far as PFC and Portpin are concerned, is the charge over Fratton Park held by the latter. Can this simply be removed, always assuming that it was taken out in return for no money passing the other way (or no debt being incurred from PFC to Portpin)? Presumably the owners/management of PFC were willing to grant this charge at the time, but given that the owner was Al-Faraj and either Storrie or Azougy was running the show, that's not saying very much. Beyond this, there's the question of other debt - the payments to Baker Tilly, the money owed to CSI and so forth. Plus, of course, the ownership of the land around Fratton Park, which is indisputably owned by Gaydamak. And the question of whether the business can be run on a solvent basis until a buyer can be found, which itself begs the question of whether a buyer can be found. Even if the purchase price comes down to a level which looks reasonable, any buyer will have to either invest massively (ground, training ground and other facilities for starters) or simply run a lower League 1/League 2 club with what's there now. Are there any potential buyers? If there are (you've mentioned Brian Howe as a possibility in an earlier post) do they have the funds or indeed the will to part with many tens of millions in addition to the purchase price? All in all, quite a tangled mess for Birch et al to sort out - and what I've listed here may only scratch the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waterside.saint Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-past/lampitt_sees_his_future_at_fratton_1_3535891 Is this the best quote ever: 'I absolutely see my long-term future being with Portsmouth Football Club, to get the club to where we are today after what happened in 2010 and with everything that has been going on in the background recently is quite an achievement.’ Erm Mr Armpit, you have been nothing other than a disaster to date . As far as I can see his only 'achievement' is to catch a terminal dose of the delusiuonal illness thats endemic over there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromdayone Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 I do not in any way, profess to know what the hell is going on, it seems that the die come down double six every time, where Poopey are concerned. However, did someone not post on here, what seems like years ago, that the whole of the old CVA debt now becomes liable. So many theorys posted as fact, it's a job to keep up. I thought the old CVA had been reduced (secretly) to 10p/pound ie. £8m now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 17 February, 2012 Share Posted 17 February, 2012 Lord Sugar@Lord_Sugar Portsmouth FC goes bust 2nd time . Bet they will be playing on Sat, business as usual. Strange insolvency laws for football. JOKE ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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