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Pompey Takeover Saga


Fitzhugh Fella

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I'm sure the Skates will squeal about this, and claim they should be afforded the same treatment. However, did Kettering also screw the Taxman out of £30m just a year ago or so? I know it's all OldCo. NewCo bulsh!t, but surely this has to be taken into account?

 

You see, they can't claim the Old Co is nothing to do with them, but also claim the trophies of the past as part of their glorious heritage; that would just be hypoctitical.

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@pn_neil_allen: RT @FootballNotices: According to http://t.co/ Kettering Town FC granted payment extension by HMRC

 

I notice that some of their players gave 2 weeks notice follwong breach of contract by the club in not paying their wages, and have now left as free agents. Maybe that's what Ward and Pearce are waiting for ...to get a bigger contract on a free than Ipswich would have given them on deadline day.

 

Of course Portsmouth tried to force this on Ben Haim last year, but he hung on grimly and got paid in the end. No one else would pay him £40 k a week even on a free, so there's no way he'd give notice!

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Hey Ho ... some more questions for you, not for you to answer but to avoid like many others. You are very keen to try and draw parallels between our two financial states after our respective relegations from the Prem and subsequent administrations; now remind me ... how much did you lot get in parachute payments? How much did we get in parachute payments? What was you level of debt? What was our level of debt?

 

With those four figures written down on a piece of paper, just sit and look at them for a while then dare to come back on here and try and tell us that you are no worse than we were. Better still, just don't bother to come back!

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Which doesn't address my argument in the slightest. What I said was that if the Liebherr's pulled their investment out of the club now you'd be in trouble. i se nothing in your post to change that view. A loan repayable in not less than 5 years becomes payable now? Wages being subsidised no longer subsidised? Would you be in trouble? Yes, you would. Of course the circumstances are different, they always are because no two cases are the same but both clubs were being funded above their natural means by owners. I fail to see the essential difference

 

OK... in simple terms

 

1. The figures quoted to date are for 2010 - which include the 12/13 mil Markus paid for the club clearing its debts - approx 1.5 on infrasttructure refurbs and around 5mil on transfers and operating cost support.

 

2. If the club were sold 13 mil would come off that as a return of the original loan in effect the net debt if sold at end of 2010 would have been around 5mil with assets of players, ground, training ground and Jacksons farm - estimated conservatively around say 25mil - so no issue there

 

3. We do not yet have the figures for 2011, but given the increase in revenues, the income from player sales (12mil), increase in TV reveue and commercial sponsorship (aap3) etc, I would hazzard a guess that the figure reamins at around 20 mil all owed to the Liebherr estate, and that we are running very close to 'within our means', certainly not reckless, certainly not stupid, certainly within a sensible business framework.

 

4. If the Leibherr's pulled out tomorrow, what would the prospectus show?

 

Purchase price? 20-25 mil (lets assume)

 

Liabilities - range between 0 and 5 mil dpending on whetrher the Leibherrs want to take a profit or not

Assets - players approx 4-8 mil, ground and stadium 5 mil, staplewood and training centre? Jacksons Farm?

Well run club living within its means, pushing for promotion to the premier league

 

Now, even with all that we know how hard it is ti find a decent buyer/investor... yet i would suggest that we would be in a far better position than most, and that because we have have a serious ethical business leadership, we might find it a tad easier... afterall, teh only incvest needed is the purchase price, no significant debt and no increasng liabilites as a result of ridiculous player contracts..... so I suggest we would be fine. Maybe not as lucky as we are now as we know ML left provision for if we are promoted to teh PL and further investment is likely, but I would say we woudl not be in any diffficulties as we dont rely on major annual injection of funds to keep on an even keel... NC would simply not allow it.

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I'm sure the Skates will squeal about this, and claim they should be afforded the same treatment. However, did Kettering also screw the Taxman out of £30m just a year ago or so? I know it's all OldCo. NewCo bulsh!t, but surely this has to be taken into account?

 

Not at all.

 

HMRC are not tyrants wishing to destroy every business that gets into trouble.

 

I'm sure if PFC put forward a realistic payment option, backed up with proof of funds - which presumably Kettering have done - then HMRC will be more than willing to drop the WUP.

 

I'm guessing that since they have no money and no realistic way to raise the funds, then they are unable to present a plan for repayment to HMRC. HMRC then only have one option, to get them wound up ASAP so as to reduce their losses....

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He will get off and become the next England manager. Not sure I will be able to stand that... :(

 

I hope he gets the england job because it`s a "no win" job as England will never win another tournament imo

 

If he wins a few he will get praise but when he and England screw up again and the "harry is a football genius manager" will

be exposed as a myth and his friends in the media will come down on him hard as they always do with England managers

 

Redknapp is some kind of "hero" in the newspapers/sports reporters eyes and taking the Englad job will take that away....

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Heart say's Guilty!...head say's Guilty!...evidence say's Guilty!, so it really depends on the jury, and how many are 'arry fans. IMHO he should never manage again! there was a shocking stat a few pages back, on his transfer dealings at Poopy, and he got a cut off all of them?......no wonder he lives in Sandbanks.

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"The mystery is why this dispute is being heard by a criminal court and not a tax tribunal" and unless we are told something after the verdict is delivered , we still will be none the wiser.

 

Presumably because Shilton delared the amount but disputed that it was taxable. Redknapp hid his.

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Are you suggesting we need to win a tournament for a manager to be a success?? Most country's do not win tournaments, even the good ones. All and England manager needs to do is come back from a tournament with his team having played vaguely near potential. That never happens, but let's not pretend the bar is that high.

 

I don't like Harry, but it seems quite likely he would do a good job, with many england players not the smartest bunch, they're exactly the sort who'd buy into his reputation and play well for him. He'd at least care more than recent managers, and pick Scott Parker.

 

And would also pick his nephew.....

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Well, AA said he was progressing it last week. Not sure why I should disbelieve him.... :lol:

 

A validation order is only issued if the Court is satisfied that there is enough money in the account to pay outstanding debts. I suspect that even if AA or Lampitt has tried to obtain an order it has been turned down and will only be granted if Chinny pays HMRC in any case. I think the "waiting for a validation order" is another red herring in an attempt to cover up the real situation.

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Are you suggesting we need to win a tournament for a manager to be a success?? Most country's do not win tournaments, even the good ones. All and England manager needs to do is come back from a tournament with his team having played vaguely near potential. That never happens, but let's not pretend the bar is that high.

 

I don't like Harry, but it seems quite likely he would do a good job, with many england players not the smartest bunch, they're exactly the sort who'd buy into his reputation and play well for him. He'd at least care more than recent managers, and pick Scott Parker.

 

Not nessasarily win but as you say do well,having said that the media/country expectation is for England to win,

unrealistic in my view but thats how its looked upon sadly.

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A validation order is only issued if the Court is satisfied that there is enough money in the account to pay outstanding debts. I suspect that even if AA or Lampitt has tried to obtain an order it has been turned down and will only be granted if Chinny pays HMRC in any case. I think the "waiting for a validation order" is another red herring in an attempt to cover up the real situation.

 

Good grief! Really!

 

(is there an emoticon for sarcastic gasp shock/horror?)

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If you can't see the difference between an honest responsible owner, and the crooks and money launderers that have been running your club, then you must be some sort of idiot.

 

Hey Ho ... some more questions for you, not for you to answer but to avoid like many others. You are very keen to try and draw parallels between our two financial states after our respective relegations from the Prem and subsequent administrations; now remind me ... how much did you lot get in parachute payments? How much did we get in parachute payments? What was you level of debt? What was our level of debt? With those four figures written down on a piece of paper, just sit and look at them for a while then dare to come back on here and try and tell us that you are no worse than we were. Better still, just don't bother to come back!

 

Why not tak the trouble to actually read what I wrote. i didn't say there was any similarity between our owners, nor did I draw any parallels between the levels of debt. What I said was that we're in trouble because our latest owner cannot fund us to the level he agreed with the FL (see that "agreed with the FL) and that if your owners could no longer fund you then you would be in financial trouble too. Nothing about levels of debt, not comparing the owners but comparing hypothetical situation. Sorry if that's too mntally taxing for you

 

1. The figures quoted to date are for 2010 - which include the 12/13 mil Markus paid for the club clearing its debts - approx 1.5 on infrasttructure refurbs and around 5mil on transfers and operating cost support.

 

2. If the club were sold 13 mil would come off that as a return of the original loan in effect the net debt if sold at end of 2010 would have been around 5mil with assets of players, ground, training ground and Jacksons farm - estimated conservatively around say 25mil - so no issue there

 

3. We do not yet have the figures for 2011, but given the increase in revenues, the income from player sales (12mil), increase in TV reveue and commercial sponsorship (aap3) etc, I would hazzard a guess that the figure reamins at around 20 mil all owed to the Liebherr estate, and that we are running very close to 'within our means', certainly not reckless, certainly not stupid, certainly within a sensible business framework.

 

4. If the Leibherr's pulled out tomorrow, what would the prospectus show?

 

Purchase price? 20-25 mil (lets assume)

 

Liabilities - range between 0 and 5 mil dpending on whetrher the Leibherrs want to take a profit or not

Assets - players approx 4-8 mil, ground and stadium 5 mil, staplewood and training centre? Jacksons Farm?

Well run club living within its means, pushing for promotion to the premier league

 

Now, even with all that we know how hard it is ti find a decent buyer/investor... yet i would suggest that we would be in a far better position than most, and that because we have have a serious ethical business leadership, we might find it a tad easier... afterall, teh only incvest needed is the purchase price, no significant debt and no increasng liabilites as a result of ridiculous player contracts..... so I suggest we would be fine. Maybe not as lucky as we are now as we know ML left provision for if we are promoted to teh PL and further investment is likely, but I would say we woudl not be in any diffficulties as we dont rely on major annual injection of funds to keep on an even keel... NC would simply not allow it.

 

FC, I know the figures I quoted are from 2010 because those are the latest actual accounts available so anyone posting anything (you included) is hypothesising. I agree with you that your revenues for 2011 will have increased, including the money for Oxlade – Chamberlain but I still think you’re being wildly optimistic with some of your claims. The last published accounts (from your first year in L1) showed that you made losses of £7.7m on the football side of things (so whoever posted that you’ve been trading within your means since Liebherr took over was patently wrong) and overall, including everything under the holding company umbrella you made losses of £9.0m. Your turnover for that year was £14.2m. Your average gate has increased since that year (according to Granty, I haven’t checked) from 21K to 26K – so +25%. So let’s say your turnover this year will have increased by 50% from the last accounts – a generous assumption? That would give you a turnover of £21.3m.

Now, in the last accounts your operating costs for the year were £22m. Wages alone accounted for £12.3m and given the signings you’ve made since them plus the increases that would have been in players’ contracts for achieving promotion that figure must have increased fairly substantially. What about other operating costs? Must have increased from two years ago, wouldn’t you say? So what are they now - £25M? Pushing £30m? Not only that but the accounts showed that you needed to repay £7m to creditors last year so that’s got to be added in too. Not to mention loans from Liebherr that are eventually due totalling over £20m. Of course, you got the £12m transfer money but £3.5 - £4m of that has been spent on Fox and Sharp and Oxlade – Chamberlain would have been on low wages as a youth player, unlike the two who have come in who wouldn’t have come cheap (are those rumours about Sharpe being on £30K a week true?) so that’ yet more money onto the wage bill. What about the rest of the transfer money. You’ve no idea if it went back into the club or if the Liebherr.

As for your valuation of the club, do you really believe that the Liebherr’s would sell for £20 -25m when a loan that needs repaying alone is for £20.4m? I’m sure they’re lovely people but they’re not a charity. I’m pretty sure they’d be looking to make a tidy profit on their investment. So I think your valuation is woefully short of what they’d be looking for. Of course you have the stadium, academy etc. (but I must point out that you only own half your training ground), I understand all that but your price seems low.

So, do we still think you’re living within your means with no need for input from the Liebherr’s or not?

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Corporate Ho seems to think if the Liebherr's pulled out then no-one would want to buy the club. Can he explain why he thinks this?

 

The club would be extremely attractive to anyone wanting to buy a football club...

 

- large and strong squad in auto promotion place in the Championship

- large average crowds of circa 25k+ in the 2nd tier

- new large modern stadium

- large piece of land at Jackson's Farm

- strong staff infrastructure in place

- state of the art training ground under construction

- one of the best academies in England which will be category 1 under new regulations in 2012/13

 

Which of those things do Pompey have in place? None is the answer and is the reason your club has been passed from crook to crook since 1998. Hard to get out of that loop.

 

(I bet he doesn't attempt to answer my first question)

Edited by Matthew Le God
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Well, AA said he was progressing it last week. Not sure why I should disbelieve him.... :lol:

 

Wasn't there a tweet from an insolvency lawyer (quoted a few pages back on this thread) who said he'd rung the high court and they had no record of an application for a validation order having been made?

 

As Sussexsaint says, no point in unfreezing an empty account - much easier to blame a "slow" court process (even though, I am told, validation orders can be obtained same day if necessary) than admit you have no cash.

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So, do we still think you’re living within your means with no need for input from the Liebherr’s or not?

 

What's this "we" you mention? As far as I can see, it's only you, p*ssing in the wind with your Department of Guesswork statistics. I can now see why it took you so long to respond to requests for something concrete to base your premise on, that we would be in trouble if the Liebherrs were to pull out. Let's just have a short look at how you phrase it all and pull out a few words and phrases, which is instructive:-

 

Given, would have been, must have, what about, wouldn't you say, so what are they now?, would have been, wouldn't have come cheap, rumours, what about, do you really believe?, so I think....

 

So what sort of opinion might contain those sorts of words and phrases?

 

Yes, conjecture.

 

Our reading of the situation regarding the Skates is at least backed up by the parlous situation that you find yourselves in, when any Skate fan with half a brain cell is getting a bit worried that you might go out of existence. Your little theory is based on nothing concrete at all.

 

And you signally failed to answer several posters who have asserted that should the Liebherrs pull out, that Cortese has sufficiently good enough contracts to take over from them. Mind you, we are not talking the sort of people that were attracted to your rotting carcass like flies to sh*t, but more probably decent businessmen, who prefer to go about things in a correct manner, rather than by utilising the proceeds of wealth acquired through gun running, or money-laundering.

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Hmmmm, could imagine those 12 lucky jury members receiving a nice padded brown envelope shaped surprise through their letterbox tonight ;)

 

Like others have said it'd be just that twitchy ****ers luck to be found not guilty, Capello to quit over the Terry saga, and twitchy to take the England job part time alongside the Spurs job for the Euros, then take it on full time.

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