Pompey Takeover Saga

[Sheaf Saint]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

Prosecution to Mandaric: Monaco money was "partly in relation to sale of Peter Crouch, isn't that right?" Mandaric: "Absolutely not"

 

Prosecution: "I'm saying Mr Mandaric that you paid a bung." Mandaric: "I don't understand where you are coming from"

 

Pros: "Your friend Harry Redknapp knew perfectly well the money was connected to sale of Crouch." Mandaric: "You'll have to ask him that"

 

I may be losing the plot, and/or will to live, here but I thought this was a case about whether Redknapp paid tax on the money not where is came from per se. In other words, in the context of this prosecution, does it matter whether it was a "bung" or a "gift" from a tax evasion perspective?

 

I'm no legal eagle, but I imagine that if they can prove Mandaric paid him the amount in such a way that he knew full well the tax would not be paid on it, then he is also guilty of the charge of 'cheating the public revenue'.

[Gingeletiss]

Where did that £400k go though? Aren't their accounts frozen? Are Fulham waiting for the validation order to be granted before paying for Williams? Or did one of Al-Fayed's flunkies drive down from West London with a briefcase full of used notes?

 

And Hutch - LOL at the silver lining comment

 

It is my belief, that all transfer moneys are paid via the FL, happy to be shot down on this hth.

[trousers]

I'm no legal eagle, but I imagine that if they can prove Mandaric paid him the amount in such a way that he knew full well the tax would not be paid on it, then he is also guilty of the charge of 'cheating the public revenue'.

 

Ah, yes, that'll be it. I'm obviously too focused on the Redknapp side of the coin for some reason.... :-)

[AK]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

Prosecution to Mandaric: Monaco money was "partly in relation to sale of Peter Crouch, isn't that right?" Mandaric: "Absolutely not"

 

Prosecution: "I'm saying Mr Mandaric that you paid a bung." Mandaric: "I don't understand where you are coming from"

 

Pros: "Your friend Harry Redknapp knew perfectly well the money was connected to sale of Crouch." Mandaric: "You'll have to ask him that"

 

I may be losing the plot, and/or will to live, here but I thought this was a case about whether Redknapp paid tax on the money, not where is came from per se. In other words, in the context of this prosecution, does it matter whether it was a "bung" or a "gift" from a tax evasion perspective?

 

Technically a "gift out of income" does not attract tax.

[trousers]

It is my belief, that all transfer moneys are paid via the FL, happy to be shot down on this hth.

 

In which case, how do the Football League intend forwarding the funds to 'Portsmouth Football Club (2010) Ltd' so that they can stage a game of football at the weekend?

[trousers]

Technically a "gift out of income" does not attract tax.

 

Ah, okey dokes. I'm beginning to grasp some of this malarkey (slowly)....

[Doctoroncall]

It is my belief, that all transfer moneys are paid via the FL, happy to be shot down on this hth.

 

Indeed that was my understanding as I remember that there were times money got diverted to other teams who were due payments.

[trousers]

David Brown @DavidhBrown #Mandaric in heated exchange as John Black QC, prosecuting, says: This is all about Mr #Redknapp, who is greedy”

 

#Redknapp trial.#Mandaric denies $150,000 "bung" was to mark Portsmouth victory ovr Manchester United in April 2004

 

BBC News (UK) @BBCNews Harry Redknapp was "not a happy bunny" after he only got 5% of Crouch transfer profit - Milan Mandaric bbc.in/ywsaJv via @pearcesport

[angelman]

If no buyer is forthcoming, which there seems not to be, and the club are trading while insolvent, even though there is a winding up order in place, wouldn't voluntary liquidation be the most realistic situation given that they must know that they are insolvent? Or do they now have to wait until compulsory liquidation?

 

I wonder how long they can reasonably continue to trade (while looking for a new owner) before they have to pull the plug?

 

I am also wondering whether HMRC want PFC 2010 to go bust in order to help with the football creditor's rule. If PFC2010 do go, then HMRC lose everything from the PCFC CVA. They could then possibly use this in their court case as an extreme example of what can happen and why they as a creditor have to take a back seat while football looks after itself. Frankly, if the football creditor's rule wasn't in place, then maybe selling clubs would be somewhat more circumspect about who they did/do business with and maybe Poopey would never have got into this position in the first place.

[bridge too far]

Technically a "gift out of income" does not attract tax.

 

Is that right? I thought there was an upper limit to gifts you can give without attracting tax. For example, when one of my daughters got married, my mother could give her no more than £x without attracting tax.

[St Jim]

It is my belief, that all transfer moneys are paid via the FL, happy to be shot down on this hth.

 

I don't know how transfer moneys are paid and you may be right about going through the FL which means they'll be holding it for them but it also depends on how the deal is structured. The offer could be to pay 400k as soon as the bank accounts are unfrozen. Then again it could be x (which could be zero) upfront with y later (depending on appearances etc). Who knows.

[St Jim]

Technically a "gift out of income" does not attract tax.

 

But only up to a certain amount isn't it?

[trousers]

Is that right? I thought there was an upper limit to gifts you can give without attracting tax. For example, when one of my daughters got married, my mother could give her no more than £x without attracting tax.

 

Rings a bell with me too - I've got an upper limit of c.£5,000 in my head (no idea where I got that from)

[bridge too far]

Rings a bell with me too - I've got an upper limit of c.£5,000 in my head (no idea where I got that from)

 

I think it depends on the situation. For example, I think you can gift your children £x a year without tax but for a wedding it's more.

[trousers]

If no buyer is forthcoming, which there seems not to be, and the club are trading while insolvent, even though there is a winding up order in place, wouldn't voluntary liquidation be the most realistic situation given that they must know that they are insolvent? Or do they now have to wait until compulsory liquidation?

 

There isn't a Winding Up Order in place yet, just a Winding Up Petition which will be heard by the court on 20th Feb. So, I guess that's when the fun and games will truely start.

[trousers]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

Prosecution say that Mandaric made second payment to Redknapp Monaco account of $150,000 just days after Portsmouth beat Manchester United

 

That was a Premier League match in April 2004. Mandaric asked why Portsmouth won. Mandaric: "Because we had a better team. Better manager"

 

Prosecution claim that second payment to Monaco was made as reward for Redknapp after the United win helped secure Premier League survival

 

Mandaric "For God's sake. He had contract over £4 million. Would be insult to say to Harry 'I'll give you £100,000 on top of your 4 million

[Minsk]

Is that right? I thought there was an upper limit to gifts you can give without attracting tax. For example, when one of my daughters got married, my mother could give her no more than £x without attracting tax.

 

That's what I thought too.

[pedg]

Mandaric "For God's sake. He had contract over £4 million. Would be insult to say to Harry 'I'll give you £100,000 on top of your 4 million

 

But you did give him 100,000!! or is it not insulting if its to "play at investing"?

 

-- edit --

 

Plus it was said the 4 million over 3 years so 100,000 would be a 7.5% bonus for the year which is not insubstantial

Edited 1 February, 2012 by pedg

[trousers]

I think it depends on the situation. For example, I think you can gift your children £x a year without tax but for a wedding it's more.

 

Maybe Harry and Milan were planning a civil partnership.....? They do sound like a bickering married couple half the time

[Ken Tone]

Just a thought.....What's the cut-off date for the points penalty being carried over into next season? Third week in March rings a bell. Perhaps they are looking to head off administration until then?

 

No. I think they'll have to go into admin before the WU hearing, so before 20th Feb.

 

Besides the points cut-off thing is to stop clubs gaining by waiting till they're definitely relegated regardless, before going into admin, and trying to lose 'pointless' points. So the FL can carry them over to next season instead if the deduction would have no real effect in the current season. There is no incentive for Portsmouth to try and wait longer than to the 19th Feb.

 

The 2 big questions for me are:

 

1. Will the FL only deduct 10 points, or will they do to them what they did to Bournemouth, Luton etc ? --the difference being that the previous deduction was by the PL, not the FL.

 

2. Will they get a proper administrator this time? Because if so he may well try to release players on frees who might otherwise have been worth a fee, because he'll need to reduce the wage bill immediately to get expenditure down to income. Clubs might take players like Pearce and Ward on a free even if they can't play until next season, because their "wasted" wages for the rest of this season would be less than the transfer fee would have been. (That won't apply to Tel Ben Haim of course!)

[Torres]

£4m over 3 years, no? £1.3m pa. So a £100k bonus on that is 7.7%. A 7.7% bonus for winning just ONE game out of 50+ is pretty significant!

 

Edit - pedg

[trousers]

But you did give him 100,000!! or is it not insulting if its to "play at investing"?

 

-- edit --

 

Plus it was said the 4 million over 3 years so 100,000 would be a 7.5% bonus for the year which is not insubstantial

 

Anyone got Mandaric's phone number? I've no problem with being insulted by him. He can insult me all he likes in fact....

[Wadge]

Rings a bell with me too - I've got an upper limit of c.£5,000 in my head (no idea where I got that from)

 

Its 5k for weddings, £3k per year for a gift.

 

But you can gift more than that in a year to get around inheritance tax, but that is tapered over a seven year period after the gift is made, until after 7 years no tax is due. But this is family to family.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Is that right? I thought there was an upper limit to gifts you can give without attracting tax. For example, when one of my daughters got married, my mother could give her no more than £x without attracting tax.

 

Sort of - you're geting a bit confused with Inheritance Tax rules. In theory you can give a gift to anyone with no limit (although, as we've seen with the Mandaric/Redknapp case, if your relationship is primarily professional then it could be viewed as a taxable bonus etc) but if the person providing the gift dies within a certain time frame (think its 7 years) then HMRC could view it as inheritance rather than a gift and then it would be subject to tax.

[Ken Tone]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

Prosecution to Mandaric: Monaco money was "partly in relation to sale of Peter Crouch, isn't that right?" Mandaric: "Absolutely not"

 

Prosecution: "I'm saying Mr Mandaric that you paid a bung." Mandaric: "I don't understand where you are coming from"

 

Pros: "Your friend Harry Redknapp knew perfectly well the money was connected to sale of Crouch." Mandaric: "You'll have to ask him that"

 

I may be losing the plot, and/or will to live, here but I thought this was a case about whether Redknapp paid tax on the money, not where is came from per se. In other words, in the context of this prosecution, does it matter whether it was a "bung" or a "gift" from a tax evasion perspective?

 

I think the gist of Mandaric's defence is....... This was not a payment or a gift as such. I was investing some money for my mate, as a loan, which I reminded him later he had to repay. (So the gift/income accruing tax would only be the profit on the investment, "which didn't do very well", ie it made no profit, so no tax due.)

 

This defence is however contradicted by Redknapp's earlier statements to the police denying it was a loan.

 

Meanwhile Redknapp's defence is basically ..." Eh ? What? I don't know nothing about no money. You having a laugh?"

[HK_Phoey]

Not sure of the exact legal situation where tax is involved. My wife's grandfather gifted us 25K GBP 10 years ago after he sold his house. No tax payable if he survived beyond 7 years ( he did by the way old bugger is 94years old in October.) I seem to remember if he died before the seven years was up could no longer be considered a gift and we would have to pay tax on it at 40% as overall estate was valued at over 250K which is not a lot for anyone owning a house.

[Ken Tone]

Not sure of the exact legal situation where tax is involved. My wife's grandfather gifted us 25K GBP 10 years ago after he sold his house. No tax payable if he survived beyond 7 years ( he did by the way old bugger is 94years old in October.) I seem to remember if he died before the seven years was up could no longer be considered a gift and we would have to pay tax on it at 40% as overall estate was valued at over 250K which is not a lot for anyone owning a house.

 

That's all related to inheritance tax rather than income tax. It's a sliding scale over the 7 yerars, so if he'd died after say 6 years you'd have only paid a small amount of tax.

[trousers]

David Brown @DavidhBrown

#Redknapp trial. Judge asks #Mandaric “what was trigger?” for $150,000 payment to manager's Rosie47 account in Monaco Post by @timesnewsdesk

 

#Redknapp. #Mandaric says manager “didn'twant to come to Leicester w/ me” whn he sold Prtsmth and bought Leicester City. Post @timesnewsdesk

[pedg]

I think the gist of Mandaric's defence is....... This was not a payment or a gift as such. I was investing some money for my mate, as a loan, which I reminded him later he had to repay. (So the gift/income accruing tax would only be the profit on the investment, "which didn't do very well", ie it made no profit, so no tax due.)

 

This defence is however contradicted by Redknapp's earlier statements to the police denying it was a loan.

 

Meanwhile Redknapp's defence is basically ..." Eh ? What? I don't know nothing about no money. You having a laugh?"

 

Mandaric's defence would have more weight if there was even a single shred of evidence involving "investment". Putting money into an account for someone that then sits there till its gets moved to their main account is not investing.

[positivepete]

Where is Clapham Saint when you need him?

 

Administration (voluntary or court ordered) is only an option for a company if it can be funded. In other words the company cannot trade at a loss during the period of administration. PFC 2010 are trading at a loss, so any administrator would have to sell assets to fund the administration. They own nothing except players contracts. Players cannot now be sold to raise cash, although in theory they could be loaned out to reduce the wages / outgoings, but who would take the wages on? The only other form of potential funding is from Chinny, and it is highly unlikely he will do that again. This is why even AA is saying administration is not an option

[angelman]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

Prosecution say that Mandaric made second payment to Redknapp Monaco account of $150,000 just days after Portsmouth beat Manchester United

 

That was a Premier League match in April 2004. Mandaric asked why Portsmouth won. Mandaric: "Because we had a better team. Better manager"

 

Prosecution claim that second payment to Monaco was made as reward for Redknapp after the United win helped secure Premier League survival

 

Mandaric "For God's sake. He had contract over £4 million. Would be insult to say to Harry 'I'll give you £100,000 on top of your 4 million

 

Hmmm. Very plain to see. He doesn't want to insult HR by giving him £100k bonus on top of the £4m, so instead insults him by loaning him £100k on top of paying him £4m. Yup - that makes complete sense.

 

And what about the $100k that went from Monaco to Florida, to a company owned by Mandy? If it was an investment, wouldn't it be easier to give HR the shares rather than loan HR the money to then give back to Mandy for shares? (Or am I mistaken there?)

[trousers]

Where is Clapham Saint when you need him?

 

Clapham?

[Gingeletiss]

Clapham?

 

[sussexsaint]

Clapham?

 

Genius

 

I suspect you are in trousers as well , I am most certainly in Sussex

[bridge too far]

Genius

 

 

I suspect you are in trousers as well , I am most certainly in Sussex

 

I've climbed down from the bridge but I'm still too far away

[holepuncture]

 

Struggling to keep up with this thread as it motors along, I must note my displeasure upon reading that potless underwater tycoon mr Krabbs has withdrawn his interest again.

 

Did he ever have his conference call with the Football League? I can picture him being wheeled into court to impress the judge, in a similar way Peter Storrie handed over his £38m squad valuation on the back of a fag packet... Testar must be on the bottle or something.

 

Im scratching my head as to why the footballing authorities are not acting on the skates after they have defaulted on the tax man three months in a row and have now not paid the staff and players. They did it to Plymouth last season IIRC? Plymouth did their best to raise money through firesales et al, Pompey just lie lie and then lie some more.

 

PMSL at Voldermort buying the bog roll for his players so they can take a dump. At least Lampitt dosent have this issue as the major refurbishment of nottarf including the installation of a toilet never got underway - the russians never had the chance to leave their legacy and fat still remains in the pipes.

 

I was washing my hands at SMS last night at HT and I have to say I thought of the skates as I lathered my soapy hands under the hot flowing water... fat in the pipes, i muttered and chuckled.

 

Hundreds of millions £££ flowing through the club and they couldnt get the fat out of the pipes FFS!

 

Really looking forward to the WUP and what angle Lampitt and AA might take to squirm out of it... Redknapp has already shotgunned the 'i cant read or write, im like a two year old' so thats off the list... the "600 employees" wont work either after Cotterils quality over quantity and AA making redundancies last administration.

 

 

P*ss taking aside, my sincere sympathies to the pompey staff who are not being paid, they are victims in all of this. Maybe the dignified Voldermort could encourage the players to put a fund together?

[pedg]

One option for selling players is that the Russian transfer window is still open till the end of feb (see ongoing sale of Pavlyuchenko) so the players could be rewarded for their loyalty by being sent to Siberia.

[Islander]

Yeah and guess where I am?

Back to the £4m contract which is £1.3+ a year but then deduct the tax at the higher rate and then see what is left? Makes £100k seem quite a generous bonus.

[trousers]

James Pearce @Pearcesport

 

Mandaric says he's spent his life "Paying taxes and doing things the proper way, like every proper person should"

 

More discussion in Redknapp/Mandaric trial about name of Redknapp's Monaco account. Mandaric "Rosie was a very cute dog"

 

Prosecution claim Rosie47 was secret account. Mandaric :"No, there was no secret account. There are no secrets about this at all"

 

Pros: "This was off record bonus paid to your manager offshore." Mandaric "That's nothing to do with truth. Sad I have to defend it"

 

Mandaric says "never in a million years" had he discussed with Redknapp trying to hide money in Monaco

 

Mandaric says entitled to be friends with his manager + make investment for him, in same way entitled to holiday and play tennis with him

 

Mandaric: "Being here (in Court) is not something that I deserve, but hopefully one day we can forget it"

 

Cross examination of Mandaric has finished. We wait to find out if his legal team will call other witnesses before Redknapp's defence begins

[trousers]

Portsmouth Penny Mourdaunt MP just asked a question in PMQs about Pompey!!!!

 

Cameron: "We must do everything we can do to keep this friendly rivalry (with Southampton) going"

 

Bloody CaMoron! Who the f*** am I going to vote for now!?!

[bridge too far]

Stupid Penny Mordant (sp?) Tory MP for P*mouth, asking David Cameron to intervene with HMRC. Dave says he knows some PFC fans and it's only right that the friendly warfare with Saints should continue.

 

FFS

[sidthesquid]

Meanwhile, in a courtroom in London.....

 

David Brown @DavidhBrown Milan #Mandaric made “modest profit” and recovered £17million loan when he sold Portsmouth FC to Alexandre Gaydamak, court told

 

Why does it always come back to that mysterious £17 million?

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16831798

 

Tory Penny Mordaunt urges the PM to tell HM Revenue and Customs to meet Portsmouth FC to discuss how to keep the club afloat. Mr Cameron promises to do all he can to keep the club afloat

[saint lard]

Holy ****e.....prime ministers questions........MP asked PM to look at the situation and not allow HMRC to punish PFC.....as PFC fans would not want to get season tickets at SFC....

 

PM" i know lots of PFC fans and i know they would not go to see SFC...i will look into the situation.

Quite a bit of laughter in the chamber...

I am gobsmacked at this....what the **** is going on.... bloody MP asking for forgiveness and help from the PM

[Ken Tone]

Genius

 

I suspect you are in trousers as well , I am most certainly in Sussex

 

I damn well hope he is in trousers. The mental image associated with the alternative is not one I wish to retain.

[trousers]

Ok. Time for someone to write to their MP to raise a question next week asking for the PM to protect the interest of UK taxpayers, local charities and businesses.....just for balance....

[pedg]

Mandaric says entitled to be friends with his manager + make investment for him

 

Again can the prosecution not hit this "make investment" thing on the head. Money paid from Mandaric to account only Arry has control of. How, in any stretch of the imagination, can that be investing??

[Ken Tone]

Holy ****e.....prime ministers questions........MP asked PM to look at the situation and not allow HMRC to punish PFC.....as PFC fans would not want to get season tickets at SFC....

 

PM" i know lots of PFC fans and i know they would not go to see SFC...i will look into the situation.

Quite a bit of laughter in the chamber...

I am gobsmacked at this....what the **** is going on.... bloody MP asking for forgiveness and help from the PM

 

Cameron knows lots of PFC fans?! Square that Dune!

 

(Or maybe they are people who work on one of his estates, and he likes to take an interest in 'the help')

[bridge too far]

Ok. Time for someone to write to their MP to raise a question next week asking for the PM to protect the interest of UK taxpayers, local charities and businesses.....just for balance....

 

Unfortunately, my MP is Dave and it looks like he's made his mind up already. Mind you, he does flip-flap sometimes

[Gemmel]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16831798

 

Tory Penny Mordaunt urges the PM to tell HM Revenue and Customs to meet Portsmouth FC to discuss how to keep the club afloat. Mr Cameron promises to do all he can to keep the club afloat

 

What a sad day. Not in keeping with this thread at all.