The "Appeal" issue is a red herring ...

[CB Fry]

Right......the rules state, that by going into administration, you seek to gain an advantage. What advantage did we gain, by cutting our costs so much including loaning out our best strikers, and getting relegated in the process.............I can't see that we have too much of an advantage!!

 

 

Of course we gain an advantage - in our case, primarily post admin. And anyway, the league can't just ignore clubs going into admin, there has to be a sanction otherwise all clubs would be p*ssing money up the wall forever.

 

Anyway it isn't me you need to rant at. Plenty of people on this forum were screaming for us to go into administration NOW NOW NOW throughout last season because "we'd be stronger for it".

 

Those people have now changed their tune.

 

Whether you think we've gained an advantage or not (I get what you're saying) we spent money we didn't have which is cheating.

 

We could talk all day about the ins and outs of it, but that is the fundemental rule we've been done by. Don't bother mentioning Liverpools, Pompeys and Man Us debt. I know.

[ItchenRob]

The regulations could have been drafted better in the sense that they make no specific provision for a situation where the club is owned by a group of companies. That, however, is by no means fatal to the FL's application of their regulations. As you doubtless know from your legal training, the Courts will bend over backwards to give business efficacy to contractual documents regardless of shortcomings with the drafting.

 

I don't think that fact that a QC has apparently (and wrongly in my opinion) rated the chances of an "appeal" being successful at 70% should dissuade you from trying to think the matter through for yourself.

 

After all, your solicitor's training presumably covered some law and, as you know, different QC's often come up with conflicting opinions on the same facts and issues. They are not Gods.

 

Having tried to think the matter through for myself and looked at the definition of "Club" again for the umpteenth time it could clearly be "drafted better" and is at best ambiguous. Quite what a court would decide is anyone's guess but it totally clear the matter is far from free of doubt and this would appear to be borne out by the lawyers for Begbies and for Pinnacle. However, my judgement is clearly totaly addled as I am discussing such matters on a football supporters forum at almost 11 pm !

[trousers]

However, my judgement is clearly totaly addled

 

Hmmmm.....There's another egg reference. There's something in this, of that I'm sure

[RinNY]

Of course we gain an advantage - in our case, primarily post admin. And anyway, the league can't just ignore clubs going into admin, there has to be a sanction otherwise all clubs would be p*ssing money up the wall forever.

 

Anyway it isn't me you need to rant at. Plenty of people on this forum were screaming for us to go into administration NOW NOW NOW throughout last season because "we'd be stronger for it".

 

Those people have now changed their tune.

 

Whether you think we've gained an advantage or not (I get what you're saying) we spent money we didn't have which is cheating.

 

We could talk all day about the ins and outs of it, but that is the fundemental rule we've been done by. Don't bother mentioning Liverpools, Pompeys and Man Us debt. I know.

 

 

How is it cheating to take out a mortgage to build a new stadium, and then get relegated and find you have trouble making the payments because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have players on Premiership contracts whom you have trouble paying after you get relegated because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have an overdraft facility (which most businesses have), and due to a massive economic downturn & crisis in banking and real estate, have the bank which has lent you the money call it in and tip you into administration?

 

Yes, we pushed the boat out a bit in our last year of parachute payments in a bid for promotion, just missed promotion, and found ourselves in fiscal hot water afterwards; but we went through massive cost-cutting to deal with that and played a whole season with essentially the youth team. Some cheating; some advantage!

 

There was NO F*CKING CHEATING!! Clubs who get relegated from the Prem and fail to go straight back up find themselves in crisis: we are not the first, nor will we be the last, and the FL's draconian attitude and unwillingness to distinguish between clubs behaving reasonably and having bad luck, and clubs (like Leeds & Luton) that genuinely behave utterly irresponisibly or borderline illegally, will only exacerbate the problem.

 

It will probably end in the Prem severing itself from the FL entirely, because the fiscal damage done both to clubs that get relegated, and to clubs which get promoted and (usually) cannot stay up for more than a season or two but still have to switch to a Prem cost basis in order to try to survive, is unsustainable.

[ITKSaint]

Leeds and Luton received more severe penalties.

 

The rules concerning Administration were crystal clear before we entered into it.

 

The 'cheating' is what those out of pocket by our Administration are feeling right now I should imagine.

 

Aren't these rules there to try and help protect, primarily the football community from exposure to bad debt and secondly the wider business community who do business with football clubs?

 

For sure there are big issues in English football right now with the gulf between the Premier and Football League but you can't lay those on the Football League.

 

It boils down to a numbers game, intentions and 'luck' are wholly irrelevant.

 

Our advantage could turn out to be a relatively free new stadium along with a debt-free rebirth. How we managed the exposure to Administration and the timing of it is really our fault isn't it.

 

I can't imagine the Football League are insensitive to the financial volatility at relegated clubs since they are comprised of many other clubs in similar situations.

[Saint Fan CaM]

How is it cheating to take out a mortgage to build a new stadium, and then get relegated and find you have trouble making the payments because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have players on Premiership contracts whom you have trouble paying after you get relegated because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have an overdraft facility (which most businesses have), and due to a massive economic downturn & crisis in banking and real estate, have the bank which has lent you the money call it in and tip you into administration?

 

Yes, we pushed the boat out a bit in our last year of parachute payments in a bid for promotion, just missed promotion, and found ourselves in fiscal hot water afterwards; but we went through massive cost-cutting to deal with that and played a whole season with essentially the youth team. Some cheating; some advantage!

 

There was NO F*CKING CHEATING!! Clubs who get relegated from the Prem and fail to go straight back up find themselves in crisis: we are not the first, nor will we be the last, and the FL's draconian attitude and unwillingness to distinguish between clubs behaving reasonably and having bad luck, and clubs (like Leeds & Luton) that genuinely behave utterly irresponisibly or borderline illegally, will only exacerbate the problem.

 

It will probably end in the Prem severing itself from the FL entirely, because the fiscal damage done both to clubs that get relegated, and to clubs which get promoted and (usually) cannot stay up for more than a season or two but still have to switch to a Prem cost basis in order to try to survive, is unsustainable.

 

 

Top post...well said.

[saintjay77]

Evidence, eh? Let me see now....

 

Christ.

 

We've gone into administration and the adminstrators and potential purchasers of the business have been renogiating with creditors. What do you think has been going on for the last three odd months?

 

Do you honestly think Pinnacle have negotiated with Aviva to pick up the mortgage precisely where SLH left it and just carry on paying the same amount against the same mortgage? Do you think Lynam, Fry and co are absolute idiots?

 

So sorry, I have no "evidence".

 

Actually, I think there was something from Le Tissier or Lynam, I think, very early on, about us being debt free. Can't remember. Doesn't matter though.

 

Take it as read the stadium mortgage will be massively renegotiated, and firmly expect it to be settled via an early lump sum or two.

 

Did I miss when Pinnacle said thy are taking on the stadium company too along with the mortage?

 

Fair enough the administrators will be working with all the creditors to find out what kind of deal they would take but I thought Pinnacle were just on record as being after the football company. I thought someone else showed interest in the stadium.

 

We could end up being charged rent which is double what the mortage payments should be so how is that gaining an advantage?

[Delmary]

I bet the football league use one standard contract which was never intended to be used for our situation (Eg holding company going into admin & no CVAs). It's like trying to fit something square into a round hole, you can't do it. I'm sure this is the case and therefore I'm not surprised the lawyers are jumping all over it.

[saintjay77]

Leeds and Luton received more severe penalties.

 

The rules concerning Administration were crystal clear before we entered into it.

 

The 'cheating' is what those out of pocket by our Administration are feeling right now I should imagine.

 

Aren't these rules there to try and help protect, primarily the football community from exposure to bad debt and secondly the wider business community who do business with football clubs?

 

For sure there are big issues in English football right now with the gulf between the Premier and Football League but you can't lay those on the Football League.

 

It boils down to a numbers game, intentions and 'luck' are wholly irrelevant.

 

Our advantage could turn out to be a relatively free new stadium along with a debt-free rebirth. How we managed the exposure to Administration and the timing of it is really our fault isn't it.

 

I can't imagine the Football League are insensitive to the financial volatility at relegated clubs since they are comprised of many other clubs in similar situations.

 

Just to twist this a little,

 

Chelsea were in a big finacial hole as they massivly overspent on there village and there team.

 

Along came a Billionare who cleared all there debt and spunked loads of money into the team.

 

If Pinnacle had come along just before we went into admin and taken us over, maybe just restructured the debt on the stadium and cleared the overdraft, then spunked a load of dosh on the team would that be cheating?

 

It seems to me like its the same thing happening but just the other side of administration. I would understand if all the people that were owed money out of this got bugger all and we became the next chelsea but thats not going to happen. those owed money will get there money and at the most will cut some of the interest off the top.

[saintjay77]

I bet the football league use one standard contract which was never intended to be used for our situation (Eg holding company going into admin & no CVAs). It's like trying to fit something square into a round hole, you can't do it. I'm sure this is the case and therefore I'm not surprised the lawyers are jumping all over it.

 

Thats my thinking too. The back and forth is probably just to try and get the wording of the contracts right so there is no come back for either side. Both will want to get as much as they can get out of it though.

 

Lets say they agree on the -10 and no more? There is probably a thousand points in the contract that have to be worded very carfully that covers us without the CVA and covers the league should anyone else try and go this route.

[trousers]

How is it cheating to take out a mortgage to build a new stadium, and then get relegated and find you have trouble making the payments because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have players on Premiership contracts whom you have trouble paying after you get relegated because of lower revenues? How is it cheating to have an overdraft facility (which most businesses have), and due to a massive economic downturn & crisis in banking and real estate, have the bank which has lent you the money call it in and tip you into administration?

 

Yes, we pushed the boat out a bit in our last year of parachute payments in a bid for promotion, just missed promotion, and found ourselves in fiscal hot water afterwards; but we went through massive cost-cutting to deal with that and played a whole season with essentially the youth team. Some cheating; some advantage!

 

There was NO F*CKING CHEATING!! Clubs who get relegated from the Prem and fail to go straight back up find themselves in crisis: we are not the first, nor will we be the last, and the FL's draconian attitude and unwillingness to distinguish between clubs behaving reasonably and having bad luck, and clubs (like Leeds & Luton) that genuinely behave utterly irresponisibly or borderline illegally, will only exacerbate the problem.

 

It will probably end in the Prem severing itself from the FL entirely, because the fiscal damage done both to clubs that get relegated, and to clubs which get promoted and (usually) cannot stay up for more than a season or two but still have to switch to a Prem cost basis in order to try to survive, is unsustainable.

 

Best post on here in a long while IMO.

 

The Football League are using rules that were created to stop blatant attempts at "cheating" for other scenarios.

[Beer Engine]

Recent non-events indicate that Pinnacle have been playing the FL and we fans off against each other to disguise the fact that they are mere wannabes.

 

Anybody still think that the FL business was a genuine issue?

[Shroppie]

Recent non-events indicate that Pinnacle have been playing the FL and we fans off against each other to disguise the fact that they are mere wannabes.

 

Anybody still think that the FL business was a genuine issue?

 

No. Agree with you, Beer. I think the money, if it was ever there, vanished and this was all stalling to try to find alternative finance.

[Gingeletiss]

Recent non-events indicate that Pinnacle have been playing the FL and we fans off against each other to disguise the fact that they are mere wannabes.

 

Anybody still think that the FL business was a genuine issue?

 

As it happens...yes, it is a real issue. Time will prove this to be a fact.

[saintwarwick]

Recent non-events indicate that Pinnacle have been playing the FL and we fans off against each other to disguise the fact that they are mere wannabes.

 

Anybody still think that the FL business was a genuine issue?

 

So why would Pinnacle spunk of £500k+ for no apparent reason?

[Beer Engine]

So why would Pinnacle spunk of £500k+ for no apparent reason?

 

First off - did they spunk £500K - some here have suggested not. I don't know.

 

The whole FL thing is astonishing. The FL statement back in April, yes April, after a forensic enquiry, explicitly set out that the "club" is comprised of three inextricably linked companies.

 

The FL said that the 10 points deduction automatically applies and that the rest of the FL's insolvency policy also applied.

 

From April, it was obvious to everyone who cared to look that the club faced a possible minus 25 points scenario in League 1 or relegation to League 2.

 

How can Fry have not understood the possible ramifications of putting SLH plc into liquidation without first having exited administration with a CVA?

 

What level of fees is he charging for this apparent lack of awareness?

 

And how can anyone whose professed intention is to spend millions of pounds on acquiring and developing the club not have known this.

 

My instincts tell me that an investor has dropped out and there is not enough funding in the Pinnacle Consortium.

 

If I were MLT, I'd distance myself from this lot at the earliest opportunity.