The "Appeal" issue is a red herring ...

[Whitey Grandad]

So, I ask you Fry and Engine; why do you feel that SFC should have their right to appeal taken away? Im not talking about IF the point deduction is fair or not, Im talking about the fairness of taking away the right to appeal.

Especially when their chairman has explicitly stated that there was a right to appeal, no that there was a right to appeal but it would be withdrawn as soon as the club had a new owner. Nobody in the League has stated that the time limit for an appeal had expired which would have been the first response if that were the case.

[SP Saint]

Sometimes I really do wonder if some pf the posters on here actually support SFC at all.

 

The points deduction may or may not be fair; that I don't know about as I am not clued up on the whole ins and outs. But what I am sure of is that I personally fell that the FL asking us to sign away our right to appeal against the points deduction is out of order.

 

IF Pinnacle feel that THEY have sufficient evidence to argue their case, why not let them? It isn't about if the points deduction is correct or not, as so far we have only heard the official FL view on this (that the points are fair). What we haven't heard officially are teh reasons that Pinnacle believe that the points are unfair. Without the "right to appeal" we will, probably, never hear this and therefore will not be able to make full judgement.

 

So, I ask you Fry and Engine; why do you feel that SFC should have their right to appeal taken away? Im not talking about IF the point deduction is fair or not, Im talking about the fairness of taking away the right to appeal.

 

I understand your point Pancake but even if an appeal was allowed I don't believe the FL would rescind their decision any more than turkeys vote for Christmas.

 

That being the case, why don't Pinnacle simply do the deal, appoint the new manager, get the side sorted out and start preparations for the most important season ever for Saints?

 

Or has the mystery man forgotten his PIN number?

[saintjay77]

Saints 2009 will be a new company/club applying to join the Football league.

 

Southampton FC is the same Southampton FC as was here last year and the year before. Only the owners of Southampton FC will have changed so by rights we will be joining the league that we are supposed to be in on merit and merit alone.

 

It will have picked up the assets of Southampton Football Club for less than the value of the club's debts at the expense of unpaid creditors.

 

No-one knows what the creditors have agreed to take as a settlement. By all acounts Southampton Football Club's only debt seems to be the over draft which is meant to be around 6 million. Wages and transfer payments are all up to date although for how much longer remains to be seen. So its concievable to believe that out of the payment for SFC the creditors will be completly satisfied. The Stadium is a seperate company so has nothing to do with SFC's creditors and as such should not count with the administration process concerning SFC

 

The FL are offering us 2 concessions (1) league membership other than through promotion via the non-league pyramid and (2) automatic promotion to the third tier.

 

No they are not. They are offering us our ticket back into the league that we should be in but they are holding that ticket to ransom by way of wanting us to waive our right to appeal. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

In return for those concessions and by way of offsetting the competitive advantage that the club obtained by living well beyond its means in the recent past and becoming insolvent, the FL is imposing a relatively small points deduction in the first year of membership - a deduction that is automatic in accordance with the Regulations agreed by all league members as recently as 2004.

 

Not far off there IMO but the league rules have a hole in them by way of holding companys going into administration rather than the football club its self. We have been in this situation since before the FL created this set of rules. Its nothing that we have tried to get into in an attempt to get out of any punishment so it seems the league created the rules to protect clubs like us then changed there minds at the last minute. Morally I think we may be taking the ****** out of the system but thats not our fault. The rules are there and have been followed by all except the league. They can see this problem and have known about it for a long time. Our holding company has been going down hill for years and has been selling off its other assets long before Administration was considered.

 

If we accept the FL's offer of membership then the FL will need to be certain that these arrangements are not going to be overturned and subsequently cause chaos - so we either accept this deal by waiving our appeal rights or we join another league.

 

Morrally I doubt many would argue that accepting the -10 is fair enough. The whole company has been mis-managed and a punishment is maybe deserved. But then dropping down 2 leagues may be punishment enough and it should also show other clubs that if they do things wrong they risk dropping like a stone and putting there club at risk of administration. I dont see how a further -10 points or more will get that message accross any more. We dont know what is in the terms that have been going backwards and forwards between Pinnacle and the league but neither side will want further action being taken so while one side wants to hold the -10 points the other will want to make sure there is no more. What ever way this gets resolved the league or us will probably be open to further legal fights from other clubs that have various ad-hoc punnishments put on them by the FL

 

Put simply - we fans get a new club, a club that is being effectively subsidised by our unpaid creditors - we also get league membership and automatic promotion to the third division.

 

All in all agreeing once and for all to a 10 points deduction sounds fair to me.

 

We dont get a new club, we get a fresh start, without the baggage of the past several years. We wont be subsidised by anyone other than our owner who will still have to pay rent for use of the stadium or pay wages of our wonderful players. We will get league member ship that we were relegated too so there will be no promotion party until at least next year.

 

If all parties can agree that the -10 is the maximum punnishment and we can move on then I will be happy. I couldnt give a stuff if the league have to then fight with Luton or Leeds as we got away with less than they did blah blah blah.

 

I just want us to have a club to support and will be happy if all parties can agree on something.

[Pancake]

Hi Pancake

 

My feeling is that our right of appeal is not being "taken away".

 

It's more a case that we are trading it away in return for Saints newco being granted (a) league membership without having to treck up through the non-league pyramid (b) automatic promotion to League 1 © the aquisition of the old club's assets at a fraction of their market price (d) the ability to trade at the expense of the old company's unpaid creditors.

 

I have to say that it seems like a very good deal for us.

 

Interesting concept, but surely SFC are still a Football League club; after all, even if the "takeover" doesnt happen we could, in theory still play our fixtures this season whislt in Administration - a la Bournemouth (IIRC)

[Beer Engine]

When was that 'announced'? I always understood it would be the existing (solvent) Football Club that the new owner will be buying. Where does a 'new club' come into it.

 

Advanced apologies if I've missed a statement to this effect somewhere...

 

 

No I haven't heard this announced either - but either way the entire business of the entire football club is going to be under new ownership.

 

Either all those assets and liabilities will be transferred to an entirely new company or those assets previously under the control and ownership of SLH plc and the stadium company etc will be hived down into SFC Limited.

[Pancake]

I understand your point Pancake but even if an appeal was allowed I don't believe the FL would rescind their decision any more than turkeys vote for Christmas.

 

That being the case, why don't Pinnacle simply do the deal, appoint the new manager, get the side sorted out and start preparations for the most important season ever for Saints?

 

Or has the mystery man forgotten his PIN number?

 

I dont feel that Pinnacle stand much of a chance of getting it sorted either; but I dont know all the fact, I haven't read all the legal docs, the ins and outs, the clauses and caveats, the confidential notes, and signed contracts.

[Whitey Grandad]

We dont get a new club, we get a fresh start, without the baggage of the past several years. We wont be subsidised by anyone other than our owner who will still have to pay rent for use of the stadium or pay wages of our wonderful players. We will get league member ship that we were relegated too so there will be no promotion party until at least next year.

That's an interesting point. It could be that the footabll club will have to continue paying a commercial rate for the stadium. Who knows what the new owners of the stadium might charge? If it's the same as before then where is the advantage gained?

[saintjay77]

Excellent, excellent post.

 

The whiners and whingers making out how hard done by we are and how unfair it all is are conveniently forgetting the club will be a hell of a lot stronger post admin than pre and will have a significant advantage over their competitors - namely they've got a stadium at a ridiculous knock down price.

 

 

I'm sure Yeovil, Gillingham and Brighton would love a £30m stadium for a third of the price. Brighton have just comitted £90m to their new one.

 

That's why there is a ten point penalty to offset our considerable advantage against our competitors*.

 

But you people just won't listen. Just keep whinging about fairness because Southampton are the most hard done by football club in the world.

 

 

*oh, one more thing - the fact that would be stronger post admin was the reason king divs like Alpine and SaintRichmond were screaming for us to go into admin NOW NOW NOW last season. They seem to have forgotten that argument now.

 

The stadium is a seperate company though and SFC will have to rent it off of either the mortage holder or who ever buys it. If our new owner also buys it and at a knock down price then we have gained an advantage but thats life and it doesnt matter if you go into admin to make it happen or take advantage of someone who cant keep up with there payments.

[eurosaint]

Saints 2009 will be a new company/club applying to join the Football league.

 

It will have picked up the assets of Southampton Football Club for less than the value of the club's debts at the expense of unpaid creditors.

 

The FL are offering us 2 concessions (1) league membership other than through promotion via the non-league pyramid and (2) automatic promotion to the third tier.

 

In return for those concessions and by way of offsetting the competitive advantage that the club obtained by living well beyond its means in the recent past and becoming insolvent, the FL is imposing a relatively small points deduction in the first year of membership - a deduction that is automatic in accordance with the Regulations agreed by all league members as recently as 2004.

 

If we accept the FL's offer of membership then the FL will need to be certain that these arrangements are not going to be overturned and subsequently cause chaos - so we either accept this deal by waiving our appeal rights or we join another league.

 

Put simply - we fans get a new club, a club that is being effectively subsidised by our unpaid creditors - we also get league membership and automatic promotion to the third division.

 

All in all agreeing once and for all to a 10 points deduction sounds fair to me.

 

A very articulate and convincing argument I must admit !

Your original post seemed a bit provocative to me but your follow up has been rational and sensible !

I do hope however that you are wrong re. Pinnacle funds etc...

[John Smith]

Saints 2009 will be a new company/club applying to join the Football league.

 

It will have picked up the assets of Southampton Football Club for less than the value of the club's debts at the expense of unpaid creditors.

 

The FL are offering us 2 concessions (1) league membership other than through promotion via the non-league pyramid and (2) automatic promotion to the third tier.

 

In return for those concessions and by way of offsetting the competitive advantage that the club obtained by living well beyond its means in the recent past and becoming insolvent, the FL is imposing a relatively small points deduction in the first year of membership - a deduction that is automatic in accordance with the Regulations agreed by all league members as recently as 2004.

 

If we accept the FL's offer of membership then the FL will need to be certain that these arrangements are not going to be overturned and subsequently cause chaos - so we either accept this deal by waiving our appeal rights or we join another league.

 

Put simply - we fans get a new club, a club that is being effectively subsidised by our unpaid creditors - we also get league membership and automatic promotion to the third division.

 

All in all agreeing once and for all to a 10 points deduction sounds fair to me.

 

The definition of a "football club" under the FL Regulations is essentially circular. A "club" is an "association football club" or words to that effect.

 

If the assets and liabilities that comprise and are essential to the continuance of a "club" are spread out over a number of companies within a group under the control of a holding company then it is entirely reasonable for the FL to treat an insolvency event occuring at one or more of those companies as one that affects the "club" and brings the sporting sanctions into play.

 

Whatever the deficiencies in the FL's drafting of the Regulations there is nothing in those Regulations to support the contention that they only apply to "clubs" which are 100% owned by a single entity.

 

The FL's statement on the points deduction is bombproof both technically and morally IMHO - essentially what they were saying is that if all the assets and liabilities of Southampton Football Club had been vested in a single trading entity such as SFC Limited then that trading entity would have been insolvent.

 

No tribunal is going to support an argument of dubious technical and moral merit in order to overturn a sanction that itself has greater technical merit and undoubted moral merit.

 

To take the point further:-

 

There is an appeal mechanism which is specific to the 10 points deduction. The sole ground of appeal is "Force Majeure" - ie the club would need to prove that the insolvency event was caused by an unforeseen event beyond the club's control - an example of such an event is given in the Regulations - being a situation where a club goes bust because another "club" has defaulted on payments due to it. What if Saints insolvency were due to the default of another club and that other "club" were set up like Saints and it was the holding company rather than one of its trading companies that technically owed Saints the money - if we apply the Fry/Pinnacle argument to that situation then that holding company is not a "club" within the meaning of the Regulations and so we would be denied an otherwise legitimate ground for appeal on the same technicality that we're trying to invoke now to avoid the imposition of the 10 point penalty.

 

The postman always knocks twice ..

 

Your summation is exactly the conclusion that my ramblings the other day, were coming to. I agree with the majority of what you have stated and this is exactly the reason Fl and Pinnacle are at loggerheads.

 

The one interesting point that has drawn my attention is your very last point above, relating to payments due from other clubs, would this also be the case in revers, be it that another clubs demand for 'payment' puts another club into 'admin'? Eg. Dave McGoldrick payments?

 

If this cannot be included, then I totally agree with you as to why we cannot and should not appeal the 10 points or even consider the 'right' to appeal. It is stone cold wrapped up, done and dusted, move on...

[Deano6]

1. The FL's decision is entirely lawful on technical grounds.

 

2. The FL's decision is fair on moral grounds.

 

3. The right to "appeal" against a decision that would be upheld on "appeal" is worthless.

 

4. Even if we waive our right to appeal in our membership contract we can still go to arbitration under Paragraph K of the FA Rules, as Leeds did in similar circumstances.

 

5. If we do go to arbitration, our claim to have the points deduction overturned will not be allowed.

 

6. If the "appeal" issue is so important why was it not addressed with FL at the outset rather than at the end of the exclusivity period?

 

7. Any further delay in preparing for next season will probably cost us 10 points anyway.

 

 

It's obvious that the "appeal" is issue is a red herring which has been introduced either: (a) to sort out more fundamental problems with the deal or (b) because Pinnacle haven't raised the money.

 

So what do you kick Mr L - ass or tyres?

 

What a load of rubbish.

[tpbury]

I'm enjoying the informed, educated and civil debate - I'm learning a lot. What's gone wrong?

[Beer Engine]

Whatever the outcome of our discussions on here - I have to say that it's all gone very quiet on the official announcements front.

 

I have a feeling that Pinnacle will complete the takeover this afternoon ...

 

Usual disclaimers.

[Red Stripe]

Sorry but are Pinnacle trying to negotiate no extra deductions other than the -10 points? My head is in a spin!

[saintjay77]

I understand your point Pancake but even if an appeal was allowed I don't believe the FL would rescind their decision any more than turkeys vote for Christmas.

 

That being the case, why don't Pinnacle simply do the deal, appoint the new manager, get the side sorted out and start preparations for the most important season ever for Saints?

 

Or has the mystery man forgotten his PIN number?

 

I doubt they would get very far but then the league could have just said that the new owners are welcome to appeal. Its there league and they can make the rules as they wish. They could have heard the appeal and then decided that effectivly the club were in administration due to there holding company being in administration and the -10 points stand now move on.

 

As they tried to take the appeal process away it makes it all look very suspicious and where Pinnacle once thought they had a fairly solid case to get it overturned, they now think the FL are crapping it because Pinnacle have a cast iron case to get it overturned.

 

The league have made the mess worse IMO and keep backing themselves into a corner that they dont want to fight there way out of.

[saintjay77]

Whatever the outcome of our discussions on here - I have to say that it's all gone very quiet on the official announcements front.

 

I have a feeling that Pinnacle will complete the takeover this afternoon ...

 

Usual disclaimers.

 

I think the contract that they keep passing back and forth is as thick as my waiste and it all goes quite on either side while they read. I wouldnt be suprised if they all find something else to argue about though so guess there will be another tomorrow.

[saintjay77]

Sorry but are Pinnacle trying to negotiate no extra deductions other than the -10 points? My head is in a spin!

 

As far as we know its just about the -10 points. But who knows what is in the contracts? We are all guessing as to if they are negotiating no further punnishment or not.

 

Its better than argueing about previous knobs though

[Navysaint]

Your summation is exactly the conclusion that my ramblings the other day, were coming to. I agree with the majority of what you have stated and this is exactly the reason Fl and Pinnacle are at loggerheads.

 

The one interesting point that has drawn my attention is your very last point above, relating to payments due from other clubs, would this also be the case in revers, be it that another clubs demand for 'payment' puts another club into 'admin'? Eg. Dave McGoldrick payments?

 

If this cannot be included, then I totally agree with you as to why we cannot and should not appeal the 10 points or even consider the 'right' to appeal. It is stone cold wrapped up, done and dusted, move on...

 

If my memory serves me correct the Football League held some of the payment from Swansea for Nathan Dyer to pay our debts to other clubs i.e Notts County.

[Saint Keith]

Sorry but are Pinnacle trying to negotiate no extra deductions other than the -10 points? My head is in a spin!

 

well both we suspect. the rules say you cannot come out of administration without a CVA, if you do you get a further penalty, as per leeds. our problem is, we cannot comply with that, as we cannot get a cva, as the club itself isnt in adminsitration

[Mole]

Notice how all the old Lowe Luvvies have joined together in hating Pinnacle. Pathetic, but totally predictable.

[INFLUENCED.COM]

I have to say that it's all gone very quiet on the official announcements front.

 

'very quiet' ?? we had one yesterday !! and that was criticised for the lack of new information..a re-hash some claimed..All I want to hear is that a takeover has happened, hopefully by Pinnacle bit if not then hey ho we'll see who really is full of sh1te

[Gordon Mockles]

Well thats that solved then. Someone call Tony and Matt and tell then to get the lawyers to stand down.

 

You comments are always quite patronising but that one was funny. I'm astounded by the sheer level of supposition and ridiculous theories people come up with on here. They're laughable! All unfounded cynicism & ludicrous conjecture. 90% not ever remotely plausible.

 

People need to:

1. Keep the faith
   
2. Trust Pinnacle and realise buying a football club is not straight forward. Would they be as blasé with their own money?
   
3. Be patient
   
4. At least give a little bit of respect to the Pinnacle Lawyers. If they work for a man estimated to worth several million, you can rest assured they're probably fairly astute with legal issues & contractual law.
   

 

Still, the self-professed TSW posters/wanna be lawyers may have another idea....

[Pancake]

Notice how all the old Lowe Luvvies have joined together in hating Pinnacle. Pathetic, but totally predictable.

 

Apart from GM, I cant see anyone "hating" Pinnacle. A few are getting fed up with the delays (with reason IMHO), but I cant see a groundswell of anti-Pinnacle postings on here.

[Graffito]

Hi Pancake

 

My feeling is that our right of appeal is not being "taken away".

 

It's more a case that we are trading it away in return for Saints newco being granted (a) league membership without having to treck up through the non-league pyramid (b) automatic promotion to League 1 © the aquisition of the old club's assets at a fraction of their market price (d) the ability to trade at the expense of the old company's unpaid creditors.

 

I have to say that it seems like a very good deal for us.

 

I don't follow your logic here. Saints are not in a position to trade the right of appeal for any of these things even if they wanted to because the punishment applied by the league (rightly or wrongly under league rules) is the 10 point deduction and not demotion to the non league etc. The right of appeal has been removed.

[BARCELONASAINT]

I honestly think we don't deserve a football club to support or the likes of Pinnacle that are trying their best to rescue us.

 

We have got to have the worst set of moaning and complaining fans i have ever come across.

 

I wouldn't blame TL and Pinnacle for turning round and saying "sorry but we have decided to not go ahead".

 

If tthe bloke does take time out to read the rubbish on hear he must be very disillusioned with some of the fan base!!!!

[Mole]

Apart from GM, I cant see anyone "hating" Pinnacle. A few are getting fed up with the delays (with reason IMHO), but I cant see a groundswell of anti-Pinnacle postings on here.

 

I'm frustrated too. With GM it's personal imo and he's hoping pinnacle fail so he can smugly say he was right.

[saintjay77]

Notice how all the old Lowe Luvvies have joined together in hating Pinnacle. Pathetic, but totally predictable.

 

Missing your old arguments so thought you would try and stir them up again or something?

 

Cant see who your aiming that at though to be honest as I havnt seen many hating the Pinnacle group.

[SP Saint]

Notice how all the old Lowe Luvvies have joined together in hating Pinnacle. Pathetic, but totally predictable.

 

You're getting very protective of Pinnacle all of a sudden Tris. Are you hoping to join The Farmer on an all expenses paid pre-season tour?

[Pancake]

I'm frustrated too. With GM it's personal imo and he's hoping pinnacle fail so he can smugly say he was right.

 

Totally agree about GM...

[saintjay77]

I'm frustrated too. With GM it's personal imo and he's hoping pinnacle fail so he can smugly say he was right.

 

there were a few that were wanting admin for the same thing IMO lol

[saintjay77]

You're getting very protective of Pinnacle all of a sudden Tris. Are you hoping to join The Farmer on an all expenses paid pre-season tour?

 

Are you suggesting Mole is Keith?

[Mole]

You're getting very protective of Pinnacle all of a sudden Tris. Are you hoping to join The Farmer on an all expenses paid pre-season tour?

 

So long as Legg wasn't also on the invite list i'd be up for it.

[djg]

If pinnacle accept to waive the right of appeal to the -10 points, what happens if the league suddenly whack us with another -15. Would that mean that we have no right to appeal that either?

 

Surely if it could be agreed that we only get -10 and no more then it is time for pinnacle to sign on the dotted line, move on and start preparing for next season, otherwise they may not be a next season for us!

[Eyes k8]

1. The FL's decision is entirely lawful on technical grounds.

 

2. The FL's decision is fair on moral grounds.

 

3. The right to "appeal" against a decision that would be upheld on "appeal" is worthless.

 

4. Even if we waive our right to appeal in our membership contract we can still go to arbitration under Paragraph K of the FA Rules, as Leeds did in similar circumstances.

 

5. If we do go to arbitration, our claim to have the points deduction overturned will not be allowed.

 

6. If the "appeal" issue is so important why was it not addressed with FL at the outset rather than at the end of the exclusivity period?

 

7. Any further delay in preparing for next season will probably cost us 10 points anyway.

 

 

It's obvious that the "appeal" is issue is a red herring which has been introduced either: (a) to sort out more fundamental problems with the deal or (b) because Pinnacle haven't raised the money.

 

So what do you kick Mr L - ass or tyres?

 

I.ve been thinking about No6 and how you've ended up with this set of events:

 

a) RL and co realise admin is a poss and hope under those circumstances to buy cheap. They realise there is a poss of using the clubs structure to try and avoid points penalties.

 

b) The administrator when appointed naturally buys into this idea because the club is worth more without penalty points.

 

c) But Fry can scarcely appeal within the 7 day limit. Dear FL we appeal on the grounds we are not in administration signed M Fry Joint administrator. So he puts it in the new owner pending box

 

d) New potential owner inheriting this doubt has to be seen to be earnestly appealing this lost cause.

 

e) Having appealed to be allowed to appeal and now knowing that having tried really hard there will still be 10 points and maybe more. The club is worth less, so how about taking a lesser offer Mr Fry

 

f) Mr Fry: I'm talking to middle east representatives

 

g) Meanwhile back at the ranch payday tomorrow

 

h)FL watch developments with interest

[CB Fry]

So, I ask you Fry and Engine; why do you feel that SFC should have their right to appeal taken away? Im not talking about IF the point deduction is fair or not, Im talking about the fairness of taking away the right to appeal.

 

Hi Pancake

 

My feeling is that our right of appeal is not being "taken away".

 

It's more a case that we are trading it away in return for Saints newco being granted (a) league membership without having to treck up through the non-league pyramid (b) automatic promotion to League 1 © the aquisition of the old club's assets at a fraction of their market price (d) the ability to trade at the expense of the old company's unpaid creditors.

 

I have to say that it seems like a very good deal for us.

 

 

I'm with him above. The right of appeal if you like is part of a negotiated settlement to grant us entry to the league.

 

I likened it to a "compromise agreement" where you pay someone off and they agree not to contest the decision to challenge it.

 

I signed one when I got made redundant. I "waived my rights to appeal". It is pretty common practice which is what the "it's unfair!!! it's illegal!!" brigade don't seem to get.

 

But if I wanted to go to court and appeal, of course I still could - how could my previous company stop me? I'd probably lose though.

 

And that's what Saints could do. They'd probably lose, but then they'd probably lose even if the League wrote them a letter saying "please, please please appeal".

 

 

And one more thing - the "waiver" preventing appealing is not there because "the league know they are in the wrong :rolleyes:" its so the league can get on with running a football competition with the clubs involved having some idea of how many points the teams have.

 

The league would win 100 appeals out of 100.

[Saint Keith]

I.ve been thinking about No6 and how you've ended up with this set of events:

 

a) RL and co realise admin is a poss and hope under those circumstances to buy cheap. They realise there is a poss of using the clubs structure to try and avoid points penalties.

 

b) The administrator when appointed naturally buys into this idea because the club is worth more without penalty points.

 

c) But Fry can scarcely appeal within the 7 day limit. Dear FL we appeal on the grounds we are not in administration signed M Fry Joint administrator. So he puts it in the new owner pending box

 

d) New potential owner inheriting this doubt has to be seen to be earnestly appealing this lost cause.

 

e) Having appealed to be allowed to appeal and now knowing that having tried really hard there will still be 10 points and maybe more. The club is worth less, so how about taking a lesser offer Mr Fry

 

f) Mr Fry: I'm talking to middle east representatives

 

g) Meanwhile back at the ranch payday tomorrow

 

h)FL watch developments with interest

 

best post from a skate i have ever read

[Fan The Flames]

Excellent post, which will be ignored by the lunatics screaming about "human rights" and "the FL are breaking the law!!!!!!" and other such garbage that is being churned out day in day out on here.

 

And anyone saying the non appeal ruling is a "last minute spanner in the works" is utterly deluded. It was plain as day to anyone eighty days ago when this all started.

 

You are equally as much of a lunatic, you have clearly made up your mind whilst knowing as little as everybody else. Lunatic.

 

The level headed on here will wait until the facts are known.

[saintjay77]

I'm with him above. The right of appeal if you like is part of a negotiated settlement to grant us entry to the league.

 

I likened it to a "compromise agreement" where you pay someone off and they agree not to contest the decision to challenge it.

 

I signed one when I got made redundant. I "waived my rights to appeal". It is pretty common practice which is what the "it's unfair!!! it's illegal!!" brigade don't seem to get.

 

But if I wanted to go to court and appeal, of course I still could - how could my previous company stop me? I'd probably lose though.

 

And that's what Saints could do. They'd probably lose, but then they'd probably lose even if the League wrote them a letter saying "please, please please appeal".

 

 

And one more thing - the "waiver" preventing appealing is not there because "the league know they are in the wrong :rolleyes:" its so the league can get on with running a football competition with the clubs involved having some idea of how many points the teams have.

 

The league would win 100 appeals out of 100.

 

It shouldnt be about the league winning anything. they provide a competition in which its there duty to make sure all clubs in said competition have a fair crack at competing in said competition.

 

We should have the right to appeal to the league to have a look at our case again to judge weather or not they made the correct decission in deducting us -10 points.

 

We are NOT trying to fight the league, we are just asking them to double check there decission as we believe there has been an error.

 

That is what the appeal process is for at any level and removing that process is something that is more likly to be done by a dictator than a bunch of suits running a competition.

[yorkie]

well both we suspect. the rules say you cannot come out of administration without a CVA, if you do you get a further penalty, as per leeds. our problem is, we cannot comply with that, as we cannot get a cva, as the club itself isnt in adminsitration

 

Is this it in a nutshell?

 

The league will have to add another 15-point penalty as we have not done what they want in getting a CVA to come out of administration (just like Leeds). But then we aren't in administration so we can't get the CVA. If the FL acknowledge this then the first 10-point deduction is invalid too!

 

The FL has a right dilemna on it's hands.

 

I personally hope the Pinnacle bid is as upfront and above board as it appears with no smoke and mirrors. Why do so many on here (and the Echo forum) seem intent on undermining all they have tried (and trying) to do?

 

At the end of the day we are just soppy football fans - or more specifically Saints fans! We are threatened with extinction so we react by biting the hand that could possibly feed!

 

It will come out in the wash as the saying goes - but we don't need any more dirty laundry next season.

 

Say Pinnacle get the position, and the FL climb down or compromise - what then? The club will be branded as cheats - nothing to do with now or the fans - but we'll be the ones on the road getting it in the neck week in and week out. The fact the National media has not jumped on this story makes me believe no one really cares except us...the FL remain very quiet after all the interviews at the time of the 10-point penalty with the laughing Malwhinney (sorry if this is not the correct spelling)!

 

There is a problem with making the rules up as you go along - someone clever enough will find a loop hole and wiggle their way out of the penalty. Can you imagine if this was any of the big four? The press would be hounding for more information! Then again if it was Man U I expect 95% of the country would love to see them demoted to the Blue-Square!

 

We need to get a grip - this is Southampton FC. A provincial club with a small time attitude and a bigtime pedigree established since the mid sixties. We do not have the history of clubs like Wolves and Preston - but we were in the right palce at the right time and believed we were Premiership quality! The truth of the matter is we missed out on the big time by not investing. All we can hope is whoever ends up in charge sees the club's potential.

 

Just believe and it will happen - but as often happens unless you get up of your ar$e and do something things remain in the same state! Pinnacle are doing their level best I'm sure - all we can do is press F5 all the time for an update!

[CB Fry]

I don't follow your logic here. Saints are not in a position to trade the right of appeal for any of these things even if they wanted to because the punishment applied by the league (rightly or wrongly under league rules) is the 10 point deduction and not demotion to the non league etc. The right of appeal has been removed.

 

 

They are in a trading position. This is a negotiation about membership of the league and is being carried out in a similar fashion to a trading negotiation or a union dispute etc. Lots of legalese but a fundemental argument.

 

At the moment SFC is not in the league.

 

The FL extreme position is to refuse us entry.

 

SFC's extreme position would be to then sue the league for restraint of trade.

 

Neither of those are likely to happen, but the bits in between might be, as with Leeds (look up Um Pahar's posts on it).

 

The bits in between hover around:

 

Entry granted to L2

 

to

 

Entry granted to L1 with -10

 

and including

 

Yes, you can appeal, but find another league to play in in the meantime.

 

 

and entry granted on condition that the points will not be contested, the books are clean, football debts covered, fit and proper person test etc.

 

 

So it is something to trade if we want to be in the League next season.

 

Not illegal whatsoever, just a negotiation.

 

 

Entry granted to L1 with -10 is our best bet and we should bite their hand off.

[The Incongruous Monk]

It's also worth remembering that Tony Lynam has stated that the appeal issue is not one that can't be overcome and it wouldn't stand in the way of completion. It seems that there are other undisclosed conditions on the league entry that he's not happy with. Whatever they are seems to be more the problem.

[Mole]

You are equally as much of a lunatic, you have clearly made up your mind whilst knowing as little as everybody else. Lunatic.

 

The level headed on here will wait until the facts are known.

 

Exactly, well said.

 

Pinnacle are paying lawyers and taking their professional advice.

 

Who are they to listen to?

 

a) The Lawyers, or

b) Some gob****e on a forum

[London Nick]

Far from being a red herring

 

Club with right of appeal = price A, club without right of appeal = price B

 

Seems a simple play by Lynam to knock the terms with Fry

[Chez]

But surely the way out is to say "I'm sorry but, having looked further into it, we no longer want to purchase SFC." They don't need to concoct artificial obstacles. There's no contract. They paid for exclusivity and that has now expired. If they don't want the club all they have to do is say "no".

 

rather than wanting topull out perhaps they see this as an opportunity to now reduce the amount offered to the creditors.

£14M + right of appeal

£13M without it?

[Pancake]

At the moment SFC is not in the league.

 

Sorry, my understanding is that at present SFC are in the Football League, and are currently at -10 points in League One. As long as SLH does not go into liquidation, SFC will start the League season in League One and can continue all season if needs be. if SLH go into liquidation before the "asset" of SFC is sold, the they (the club) cease to exist and drop out of the FL structure.

[CB Fry]

It shouldnt be about the league winning anything. they provide a competition in which its there duty to make sure all clubs in said competition have a fair crack at competing in said competition.

 

We should have the right to appeal to the league to have a look at our case again to judge weather or not they made the correct decission in deducting us -10 points.

 

We are NOT trying to fight the league, we are just asking them to double check there decission as we believe there has been an error.

 

That is what the appeal process is for at any level and removing that process is something that is more likly to be done by a dictator than a bunch of suits running a competition.

 

 

Don't you think SLH made a humoungous mistake when they seriously thought they could dump SLH into admin and not get points deducted.

 

The league haven't made a bloody mistake, and don't you think the FL "checked their decision" again on Monday and didn't they "check their decision" when they sent their accountants in after the first week or so.

 

Stop going on about dictators, for christ's sake. Don't any of you work in the real world?

[CB Fry]

Sorry, my understanding is that at present SFC are in the Football League, and are currently at -10 points in League One. As long as SLH does not go into liquidation, SFC will start the League season in League One and can continue all season if needs be. if SLH go into liquidation before the "asset" of SFC is sold, the they (the club) cease to exist and drop out of the FL structure.

 

Has any party got the golden share? I'm not sure anyone has.

 

All my points still stand because in the trade off, refusing entry to Pinnacle and anyone else that refuses to accept the terms will drive us into liquidation anyway.

[suewhistle]

Totally different circumstances though, the non-appeal clause for Leeds was for the 15-point deduction they were handed for failing to exit administration in accordance with the Football League's requirements. They did not seek to appeal the statutory 10-point deduction for going into administration.

 

Perhaps that's what's happening here, given the Catch-22 over the CVA.

[Pancake]

Has any party got the golden share? I'm not sure anyone has.

 

All my points still stand because in the trade off, refusing entry to Pinnacle and anyone else that refuses to accept the terms will drive us into liquidation anyway.

 

Im pretty sure that the "Golden Share" in held by the SFC Board rather than by the SLH Board.

[Sheff Saint]

Or, shock horror, we as fans are not aware of all the inner workings.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the FL discussions are wider than just the -10 points? What's the ramifaction of taking the appeal away?

 

I don't know what they are, hey there might be none, but i reckon there's a fair chance the conversation is more about if we start in League 1 on -27 or in League 2 on 0. If that's the conversation, i can appreciate why it's taking a bit longer to iron out.