Email campaign to expose what the slithery snake Mawhinney has done

[Mole]

OK Folks, we are all quite rightly mightly pi**ed off with the FL, but let's turn that anger and rage to good use. Let's have a new threat / sticky for a call to action and make sure the FL are fully aware of the fans feelings.

 

I have emailed FL, Sky, SFC to express my anger and disapointment at the injustice - don't have a problem with the final outcome but even a child molester, murderer and terrorist has a right of appeal, so just who the f**k do the FL think they are?

 

Let's get a campaign going and I am sure we will get wide spread support - the FL are like a bully, they will only get away with it if we let them. In this day and age is there any other institution that could get away with this???

 

I am not a full member and so cannot start a new thread, but please can someone do so - let us not suffer in silence. A lot of the traditional highly respected institutions (politicians, clergy, police etc etc.) have been "outed", and it is high time for the FL.

 

It is amazing how effective everyone on this site emailing their MP, Sky, FL, SFC, Echo, Pinnacle, Mark Fry, Gordon Brown, Jeff Stelling etc. etc. will achieve.

 

If you care for your club, justice and screwing the FL - GET EMAILING (AND THE STICKY SET UP).

 

I will send an email to the football league and to sky in the morning.

[Give it to Ron]

Will the other 91? clubs in the Football League start an email campaign to Mawinney about the snake that tried to slither through the back door of its rules?

Ok say we win what are the repercussions of this....the FL will be taken to court by every club that has had a penalty imposed.

Everytime we come up in front of them in the future we will get slaughtered.

The FL makes up its own rules as it goes along everyone knows this and if you want to play in their league you HAVE to accept that.

[Saint in Paradise]

Here is my e-mail to the F.L.

Dear Sirs,

 

As a Saints fan for 54 years I am very dismayed to see that you are

refusing to allow new owners of Saints just because they will not sign

away their legal and moral right to appeal your decision to deduct 10 points.

 

Without even going into whether the F.L. are correct or not I cannot believe

that you are refusing the right to challenge your decision.

 

I feel that in your hearts you know that you have made a mistake, well in

my long lifetime I have come to know that it takes a Real Man to admit that

he has made a mistake.

 

I now pose the question are YOU all MEN enough to admit YOUR mistake

and allow an appeal or are YOU as spineless as the U.K. M.P.s with their

expence claims ?

 

Yours Faithfully

[70's Mike]

Will the other 91? clubs in the Football League start an email campaign to Mawinney about the snake that tried to slither through the back door of its rules?

Ok say we win what are the repercussions of this....the FL will be taken to court by every club that has had a penalty imposed.

Everytime we come up in front of them in the future we will get slaughtered.

The FL makes up its own rules as it goes along everyone knows this and if you want to play in their league you HAVE to accept that.

 

agreed Ron

arguing with the football authorities, at all levels of the game, is bad news

[Thedelldays]

we knew the rules and all that.....

[chocco boxo]

Rules are to be broken. **** the Sweet F.A

[the boy from saints]

I sent an email last night discussing the fact that Malwhinney clearly stated we had a right to appeal, but that right seems to have been rescinded out of fear that we will contest the points reduction and win.

 

I also mentioned the fact that the culprits that put us into admin. didn't get punished and it's the club and supporters that take the hit.

[Delmary]

I will send an email to the football league and to sky in the morning.

Sent mine.

[Toadhall Saint]

Where are the direct quotes from the FL? Please someone point me in the right direction.

[Wade Garrett]

Do we actually know it's about the ten points?

[Mouldy Coat]

The football league have deducted 10 points for ethical reasons, not legal grounds. We want to appeal based on legal grounds. Why are we bothering?? the Footbal League will always win. If Pinnacle wont sign the agreement to agree that we wont appeal, then the FL will withhold our registration. The stand off will be to the point that Pinnacle will soon realise we wont have a club unless FL accept our registration and Pinnacle will eventually give in before it's too late for them to buy the club.......why can't they see this?? Just take the punishment and lets get on with it. This is not a legal matter, this is an ethical situation.

[saintwarwick]

we knew the rules and all that.....

 

As far as I'm aware we didn't break any rules, did we?

[alpine_saint]

we knew the rules and all that.....

 

What rules have we broken ?

 

You are beginning to sound like an attention-seeking stuck record like GM, do you know that ?

[VectisSaint]

A campaign against the FL when we don't even know any facts. Brilliant. We don't know for sure that the appeal against the 10 points is even an issue, we hope it is because the alternative scenario which no-one wants to contemplate is that Pinnacle have either been found wanting or have been completely naive. I don't believe for one minute that the only blocking issue is the right of appeal against the 10 point deduction, if it was an Pinnacle were confident they would take the 10 point deduction on the chin and plan to get promotion anyway, 10 points is not that much.

 

No there is more to this than meets the eye.

[Master Bates]

http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theyworkforyou.com%2Fpeer%2Flord_mawhinney&who=31769

[bjk]

Pinnacle must accept that they cant appeal even though i want them to.Why put all this effort in to buy the club only for it to fail at the very last minute.Right or wrong they must go along with what the FL says its just not worth the risk.

[Panda]

I think that without the full facts available it would be foolish, and potentially damaging, for any fan to interfere with any form of protest against the Football League. At present there are no published facts that confirm anyone one party is responsible for this mess and a hot-headed response will only entrench attitudes when delicate negotiation is what is needed.

 

KEEP OUT OF IT!

[Burger]

A campaign against the FL when we don't even know any facts. Brilliant. We don't know for sure that the appeal against the 10 points is even an issue, we hope it is because the alternative scenario which no-one wants to contemplate is that Pinnacle have either been found wanting or have been completely naive. I don't believe for one minute that the only blocking issue is the right of appeal against the 10 point deduction, if it was an Pinnacle were confident they would take the 10 point deduction on the chin and plan to get promotion anyway, 10 points is not that much.

 

No there is more to this than meets the eye.

 

Agreed.

[Perennial Underachiever]

I think that without the full facts available it would be foolish, and potentially damaging, for any fan to interfere with any form of protest against the Football League. At present there are no published facts that confirm anyone one party is responsible for this mess and a hot-headed response will only entrench attitudes when delicate negotiation is what is needed.

 

KEEP OUT OF IT!

 

I agree. While I hate Lord Hawhaw and the FL and I think that this last minute hitch could have been dealt with far earlier in proceedings, I don't think that firing off angry (and no doubt abusive emails in some cases) is going to help the club's cause, tempting though it is.

 

If the whole thing fails and the club goes under, then let's let Hawhaw and cronies know exactly what we think of them directly, but until then we'd be best served keeping our thoughts on the forums.

[bridge too far]

Whilst I have no doubt that they're both aware of the situation, surely there's some mileage in getting the local MPs involved?

 

I know MPs are personae non grata ATM but they can bring pressures to bear that we mere mortals can't.

[Springhill]

I sent the following EMail to the FL before this thread appeared...."..You appear to be pursuing a course of action against Southampton FC of which the worst scenario could be that the City of Southampton is completely deprived of its Football team. In case you have not noticed the world in general and this country in particular is undergoing a great financial trauma which is causing massive unemployment. You presumably exist to promote the game of football in this Country........how does that equate to enforcing some rule that would be laughed out of Court if it got there but which will inevitably if pursued result not only in the loss of a long established club but a significant loss of jobs. The government has bailed out the banks but you take a completely opposite approach and simply worsen financial problems on the spurious excuse that you are protecting the integrity of football. Please get into the real world! ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, A Southampton season ticket holder"

I suspect that if the worst scenario did occur there would be Government and/or judicial intervention

[Fan The Flames]

I agree. While I hate Lord Hawhaw and the FL and I think that this last minute hitch could have been dealt with far earlier in proceedings, I don't think that firing off angry (and no doubt abusive emails in some cases) is going to help the club's cause, tempting though it is.

 

If the whole thing fails and the club goes under, then let's let Hawhaw and cronies know exactly what we think of them directly, but until then we'd be best served keeping our thoughts on the forums.

 

Emails to the FL will do no harm. At the very least people let of steam at the very most it influences the decision making process and the truth is the effect will lie somewhere in between.

 

The whole ruling on the points deductions need to be looked at, because it is a mess. Its a one size fits all policy when each case is different.

 

The FL/FA allows criminals and murdering dictators to own clubs, but a honest consortium that just wants the right of appeal is not allowed. You would think this was a banana republic not 21st century England so lobby away if you think it will do any good.

 

The sooner we get back in the prem away from these amateurs the better.

[Wade Garrett]

It isn't the football league's fault that the dopey Lowe left admin a too late.

 

To be perfectly honest, it would probably look like we are the slithery ones to the outside world for trying to lose the punishment on a technicality.

 

We need to accept our punishment and move on. As I've said before, win our first ten games and send Mawhinney a bottle of bubbly to thank him for galvanising the club and support. The perfect retort.

[Whitey Grandad]

I would wait until after Monday before protesting too much. It may not be as simple as 'accepting 10 points and moving on'.

[VectisSaint]

Emails to the FL will do no harm.

You want to bet. Abusive emails wil galvanise the FL view, especially if the FL is not the problem, as is possibly the case. By the way the murderers and dictators are more associated with the FA Premier League which you seem to wish to return to rather than the mere amateurs we are currently dealing with. There are far more amateurs in the FA, the FL was always the professional side of the game at least until 1992, thats why they have a grudge against teams that kicked them in the teeth in 1992, which of course includes Saints

[CWD]

Here's mine:

 

Dear Lord Mawhinney,

 

As a life long fan of the Saints, I am writing to you with concerns for my beloved club. Southampton FC is not just a football team, but a central figure at the heart of a thriving community. By possibly refusing to allow the proposed takeover of the club you will stop the heartbeat of the city of Southampton. Surely your primary obligation is to protect the clubs of the football league, and you must agree that it would be a sad day when a club with such a glorious history as ours ceases to exist. I implore you not to make this happen.

 

Yours sincerely,

[OldNick]

The injustice was that we were going to get the -10 last season if we had stayed above the relegation zone and if not -10 this season. that is totally unjust.

The FL should have relegated the day the PLC went into admin.That would have been fairer and also saved this situation.

[Burger]

Here's mine:

 

Dear Lord Mawhinney,

 

As a life long fan of the Saints, I am writing to you with concerns for my beloved club. Southampton FC is not just a football team, but a central figure at the heart of a thriving community. By possibly refusing to allow the proposed takeover of the club you will stop the heartbeat of the city of Southampton. Surely your primary obligation is to protect the clubs of the football league, and you must agree that it would be a sad day when a club with such a glorious history as ours ceases to exist. I implore you not to make this happen.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

Dear CWD,

 

I have the primary obligation to make life fair for all teams, hence the 25 point penalty for SFC benefitting from Admin. If there is no-one willing to take over the club on these terms then I am truly sorry.

 

Lord Malfunction

[CWD]

Dear CWD,

 

I have the primary obligation to make life fair for all teams, hence the 25 point penalty for SFC benefitting from Admin. If there is no-one willing to take over the club on these terms then I am truly sorry.

 

Lord Malfunction

 

Oh i see, my apologies my lord. How dare I be so impertinent;)

[ART]

Sincerely, what good did the 30,000 signatures on Leeds petition or the 10,000 odd on Luton's do. Everyone but the clubs and League know that it's wrong but nothing changes. We've more chance appealing to Gordon Brown and getting action that MacWhinney and his muppets.

[CWD]

Sincerely, what good did the 30,000 signatures on Leeds petition or the 10,000 odd on Luton's do. Everyone but the clubs and League know that it's wrong but nothing changes. We've more chance appealing to Gordon Brown and getting action that MacWhinney and his muppets.

 

Fair point Art, but at least this way it feels like we're doing something to help!

[stevegrant]

The football league have deducted 10 points for ethical reasons, not legal grounds. We want to appeal based on legal grounds. Why are we bothering?? the Footbal League will always win. If Pinnacle wont sign the agreement to agree that we wont appeal, then the FL will withhold our registration. The stand off will be to the point that Pinnacle will soon realise we wont have a club unless FL accept our registration and Pinnacle will eventually give in before it's too late for them to buy the club.......why can't they see this?? Just take the punishment and lets get on with it. This is not a legal matter, this is an ethical situation.

I'm generally of the same view, that to the letter of the rules we shouldn't have had the deduction but in the spirit of them we deserved it.

 

However, regardless of whether it is seen as a spurious appeal, for the Football League to attempt to withdraw our basic right to appeal it is scandalous.

 

Surely if they were that confident of the decision they came to originally, they wouldn't be too bothered if we appeal as it would be pointless. They're clearly far from confident that they made the right decision.

[Fan The Flames]

The injustice was that we were going to get the -10 last season if we had stayed above the relegation zone and if not -10 this season. that is totally unjust.

The FL should have relegated the day the PLC went into admin.That would have been fairer and also saved this situation.

 

That is, as I see it, the way out of this mess. Southampton accepts that -10 is valid and the FL accepts that the points should be applied to last season. We are not materially affected and the FL maintains its authority.

 

It would be a fudge and a missed opportunity to look at the ruling, but it could move the situation on.

Edited 20 June, 2009 by Fan The Flames

[buctootim]

However, regardless of whether it is seen as a spurious appeal, for the Football League to attempt to withdraw our basic right to appeal it is scandalous.

 

I dont think they have. As far as I understand any club has 7 days to appeal against a points deduction and that the appeal has to be heard within 21 days. As we apparently didnt appeal within the 7 days, we have only ourselves to blame - although its understandable given the lack of board and direction following admin.

Edited 20 June, 2009 by buctootim

[OldNick]

That is, as I see it, the way out of this mess. Southampton accepts that -10 is valid and the FL accepts that the points should be applied to last season. We are not materially affected and the FL maintains its authority.

 

It would be a fudge and a missed opportunity to look at the ruling, but it could move the situation on.

I would be happy for them to penalise us -30 for last season, it is not right to carry it over.

The decision basically made us give up the ghost as with the best will in the world

the club knew we were down. im doubt we would have stayed up anyway but I do believe that it must have made some impact on the final outcome.

[Mole]

As far as I'm aware we didn't break any rules, did we?

 

Precisely. The law may be an ass, but it's still the law. If the rules are not in place it's everyone legal right to exploit loopholes etc. It's corrupt of Mawhinney to withdraw our right of appeal just because he's scared of losing.

[supaimpy_returns]

the 10 points is the smoke screen, the real problem is Pinancle are buying assets not SLH and not paying the full debt value.

the FL want to see all the debt paid despite the fact the creditors are happy with say 40p in the £

If they accept the deal then the arguement over the 10 points is lost as it proves SLH and SFC are two seperate entities.

I've said it before SLH won't have a CVA as it will be wound up and no longer exist, SFC don't need a CVA as they have never been in admin.

The FL have just realised this when Pinancle applied for the transfer which they couldn't do until all the other legal hoops had been crossed,

No one else will be buying the club under the FL eyes as they would have to pay the full value of the debt and buy SLH.

Monday is the biggest day in the clubs history and it could well be the end of the club as effectively the club will have no value.

[OldNick]

Monday is the biggest day in the clubs history and it could well be the end of the club as effectively the club will have no value.

Are you saying whatever happens that is the case and so we may be re-named.If so that would give the FL anoter bargaining chip, as they may be albe tosay you are a new club, start at the bottom?

[Fan The Flames]

the 10 points is the smoke screen, the real problem is Pinancle are buying assets not SLH and not paying the full debt value.

the FL want to see all the debt paid despite the fact the creditors are happy with say 40p in the £

If they accept the deal then the arguement over the 10 points is lost as it proves SLH and SFC are two seperate entities.

I've said it before SLH won't have a CVA as it will be wound up and no longer exist, SFC don't need a CVA as they have never been in admin.

The FL have just realised this when Pinancle applied for the transfer which they couldn't do until all the other legal hoops had been crossed,

No one else will be buying the club under the FL eyes as they would have to pay the full value of the debt and buy SLH.

Monday is the biggest day in the clubs history and it could well be the end of the club as effectively the club will have no value.

 

So the FL could accept that we are an anomaly and back down. Look at their rules again and draft them properly next time.

[buctootim]

So the FL could accept that we are an anomaly and back down. Look at their rules again and draft them properly next time.

If they back down every club in the country will rejig their structure to gain the same benefit as Saints - and you'd be back to clubs borrowing money, going into admin and reappearing in a diffrent giuse with their debts wiped out.

[Fan The Flames]

Are you saying whatever happens that is the case and so we may be re-named.If so that would give the FL anoter bargaining chip, as they may be albe tosay you are a new club, start at the bottom?

 

I dont think thats what hes saying, but if the FL accept the deal they have to admit that SFC and SLH are not linked. This they don't want to do becasue the -10 wont be applicable. This is why the FL is trying to pass the -10 on to SFC.

[Fan The Flames]

If they back down every club in the country will rejig their structure to gain the same benefit as Saints - and you'd be back to clubs borrowing money, going into admin and reappearing in a diffrent giuse with their debts wiped out.

 

Not if they re-draft the rules to suit, which they will have to do anyway now this situation has highlighted the hole.

 

Are we the plc structure to go into admin since the -10 rules came in?

Edited 20 June, 2009 by Fan The Flames

[Supersubpuckett]

I can't believe its the 10 pt issue thats suddenly appeared to prevent the take over - its not exactly been a hidden matter!!

 

I dearly hope with every bone in my body that Matt and Pinnacle are successful, however lets go into the new era with a shred of pride and stop sending the FL these emotional, pleading emails which will achieve nothing but make us look like a bunch of naive ****s.

[Cowesboy]

It's corrupt of Mawhinney to withdraw our right of appeal just because he's scared of losing.

Mahwinney "scared of losing" . You are having a laugh. If we take on Mahwinney there is only going to be one winner. Ask Ken Bates.

[Springhill]

Dear Mr Young

 

Thank you for your email, the content of which has been noted.

 

It may help if we clarify The Football League’s role in relation to football clubs.

 

The vast majority of football clubs (and all Football League clubs) are companies incorporated under English Law. The Football League has no jurisdiction over those companies (or their owners) save where it relates to the participation in our competitions.

 

Put simply, provided the owner operates within the law of the land he/she is free to operate the business as he/she sees fit. If he/she operates outside the law of the land then that is a matter for the legal authorities of the country in question. The owner is free to use the assets of that business as he/she sees fit, provided any actions are legal.

 

What The League provides is a national membership organisation and administers competitions within which the member clubs participate and it is these Clubs that make up the ‘membership’ of The League. They vote in Rules and Regulations which The League then administers.

 

We do not “run” the member clubs. That is done by the owners and directors of those member clubs. For example, we have no legal jurisdiction to dictate who can or cannot own a business, but The League does have the ability to determine whether that company should be able to participate in our competitions.

 

We also have rules and regulation in relation to membership and participation in our competitions with relevance to directors. In particular the Fit and Proper Person Test disqualifies people from operating as directors of a club if they fall into any of the following categories:

 

• Anyone subject to a ban from a Sports Governing Body relating to the administration of that sport.

• Anyone with an unspent conviction relating to fraud or dishonesty.

• Anyone that is disqualified from acting as a director of a UK registered company.

• Anyone currently subject to a Bankruptcy Order.

• Anyone who has been a Director of a club that has been in administration twice during a five-year period or a Director of two different clubs that have each gone into administration in a five-year period.

 

The Fit and Proper Persons Test can only operate within the constraints of the law of the land and cannot be used to cover any grievance against an owner or director of a club. Its relevance is limited to legal issues.

 

Provided League Rules and Regulations are observed that private company is entitled to be a League member and participate in our competitions.

 

When a private company suffers an insolvency event or encounters financial problems it falls under the remit of the insolvency law that operates in this country. The League is there to offer advice in relation to our policies and regulations. We are not there to “bail clubs out” or take over the running of the clubs. That is a matter for the owners or, should they be appointed by the court, the administrators. The League is a not-for-profit organisation that generates revenue and distributes it to the member clubs.

 

When a club is looking to exit administration or administrative receivership and move into the hands of new owners The League has a degree of control in terms of assuring the new owners can support the club going forward (The League does not have the same control when a private sale takes place as it has no legislative control over a private business in this regard).

 

The League operates an insolvency policy, part of which includes the Sporting Sanctions Regulation. This Regulation sees clubs that suffer an insolvency event deducted 10 points. This Regulation was voted into place by our member clubs in September 2003 and came into force on May 10, 2004. Clubs recently amended the Sporting Sanction regulation to try and ensure that any Club who was likely to be relegated by virtue of their playing record could not manipulate the 10point deduction to their advantage.

 

This sanction seeks to restore the competitive balance that would otherwise be distorted by the use of insolvency proceedings, in the first instance to prevent creditors of the club being able to recover sums lawfully due to them and, thereafter (in the majority of cases) seeking to settle the amounts due to those creditors other than by way of payment in full.

 

The sanction is designed to have a deterrent effect and to make Directors more accountable to supporters for the way they have run their clubs. In time, this should foster a more sustainable approach to managing football clubs and, hopefully, reduce the number of clubs needing to go into administration.

 

The ten-point deduction itself is not intended as a punishment but rather as an attempt to balance the competitive advantage clubs receive by ridding themselves of debt.

 

An appeal against the sanction is allowed under League Regulations where insolvency events have occurred due to circumstances which are deemed to be unforeseeable and unavoidable.

 

We assure you The League does not wish to lose any Club.

 

 

Patricia Brown

Customer Service

The Football League

http://www.football-league.co.uk

 

Response from FL !!l

[stevegrant]

Very wordy reply from the FL there but offers absolutely no response to the actual issues raised...

[Mole]

Very wordy reply from the FL there but offers absolutely no response to the actual issues raised...

 

Cheers Steve, i expected it'd be waffle and didn't bother reading it for that reason.

[benjii]

Standard response of no use whatsoever.

 

TBH, I'm surprised they even bothered sending that though.

 

I like the reference to the Insolvency Policy applying when "clubs" suffer an insolvency event though. As we all know, SFC has not "suffered an insolvency event".

[trousers]

Response from FL !!l

 

Thanks. Keep us posted re: the answer to your follow up email...i.e. "Dear Football League. Thank you for your email. I would be grateful if you could actually address the specific points I raised in my original email. Thank you."

[Alain Perrin]

Cheers Steve, i expected it'd be waffle and didn't bother reading it for that reason.

 

Glad to see you are keeping an open mind and I am sure they said the same about your email.

 

I think there are a number of facts people are missing here, technicalities aside.

 

We (Southampton - the club, regardless of how it was structured) had £20m of debt. This debt was built up buying and paying players, building a stadium and a training ground, and financing world class catering.

 

Post administration we still have all of those things except the debt has been reduced to say £5m. Regardless of the rules, that's not fair on the other clubs.

 

As a fan, I'd love for us to escape the 10 point penalty, but if you look at it objectively we would gain an unfair advantage from it.

 

I don't blame Pinacle for trying, they're just trying to maximise the value of their investment, but we shouldn't turn it into a moral crusade. We're trying to bend the rules / cheat the system - if it works, great, but we shouldn't hold our heads up high about it.

 

(figures are examples only)