eelpie Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 SSN have just stated that the delay is that the FL want Pinnancle to sign something saying they will not appeal 10 point deduction .... That is blackmail!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubsaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I cannot believe that swear filter. The word was S W @ N K Y. I thought you had said sh1tty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintpat Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Pinnacle are NOT buying the company that went into administration and that is the crux of the whole matter. It would seem that the FL want Pinnacle to give up any right of appeal- and that would seem to be a completely illegal stance to take. It seems to be against all principles of law in this country. Morally we should perhaps take the 10 point deduction- but legally I believe that we don't need to. The FL have got themselves in a VERY difficult position. I believe Pinnacle have EVERY right to insist on a 'right of appeal' and should NOT back down and I do not believe for a second that this situation arose today, Pinnacle will have been looking at the 10 point deduction from the moment they became interested in the club. It would seem that Pinnacle have decent finances behind them and therefore can probably pay for decent legal advice. The law may be an ass but it is 'the law' and has to be abided by. You cannot change the law to suit your argument and that is what the FL seem to be trying to do. And a BIG thank you to Tony for being so honest with the fans and letting us know the situation. It is a VERY welcome change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubsaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 For what it's worth.I taught Law for a considerable number of years and reliably inform you that 'The Right of Appeal' is sacrosant in English law. The FL know this but appear insistent that they will NOT negotiate over the Ten points deduction for next season. Whether or not they dig their heels in now is irrelevant as the Right of Appeal has to be recognised. Murderers have the right of appeal but it dosen't mean they always get off. The FL Lawyers are probably advising the Board at this very moment. THE RIGHT OF APPEAL IS A GOD GIVEN RIGHT THAT EVEN THE football league CANT TAKE AWAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evo Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 In the real world, if you have a loophole (or to put it another way a badly written rule/law) and someone exploits it, they get away with it. You say through gritted teeth "you got me this time old chap" and then promptly rewrite the rule/law to avoid it happening again. In the FL world they say "spirit of the law says no" and promptly add whatever slant they want to the rules to suit. I've read through the FL rules and they couldn't be clearer, we *shouldn't* have been given the penalty but conversely we *shouldn't* have any right of appeal under their rules. There are a few other rules in there that left me scratching my head wondering "can they really do that?" I suggest a thorough review of the system from the top down. Lots of politicians, lots of money, lots of time and lots of inaction.* * not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisobee Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Perhaps someone should remind Lord Mawhinney and co that this country is still a democracy and tin pot dictators are not generally tolerated. Regardless of whether anyone feels the points deduction is right or wrong, fair or unjustified the right of appeal should be a given and any attempt to prevent such an appeal would under most circumstances be illegal. So though it's hard for people not to want Pinnacle to just agree and complete the deal that's rather giving in to what is tantamount to blackmail. I'll be interested to see what develops over the next few days and though I would have loved the deal to have gone through today I also feel taking a stand on this issue is justified. I'm confident this deal will go through, I can't imagine so much time, money and effort being put in by all concerned only for them to allow the deal to collapse and there is also the much more emotive issue of whether MLT will allow it to happen bearing in mind the possible consequences. Anyway, fair play to Tony Lynam, it's so rare these days that the fans are considered to be important enough to be kept informed as to what is happening to THEIR club and at the end of the day all of us on here who have supported Saints be it for 40+ years like myself or just 40 days are the people who make the club possible and the lack of consideration given to the fans these days, the constant changing of dates for games on the whim of Sky etc ( though at least we won't have too much to worry about on that score !) is quite frankly disgraceful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mase Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Much appreciated for the update Tony. If… Or better yet, WHEN you complete this takeover, do us all a favour and sort out the Official Site. I got more of an update on the takeover reading the Sun today than the OS… Not good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Our case is very different to Luton's so that really doesn't come into it. You're probably right, but the Luton chairman said (in a very comradely though possibly sinister way) that he didn't want us to lose the points, but if we didn't, it was his view that Luton should not have been deducted their points, or some of them. He said this the moment 'we' (whoever 'we' are) went into admin. Speaking of 'we', I think 'we' (the fans) have a very clear idea of what 'we' are. When we say 'we', we mean the club, the team, the fans. This view isn't shared by the FL, and possibly not Pinnacle. Also, want to add my congrats to Tony L who I know nothing about but appears a sound bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokingFun Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Could it be the deal made with administrators was contingient on us being able to successfully appeal the 10 points, and that the administrators were so sure of this that pinnacle accepted the price on that basis? This could mean either the FL give in or a few quid gets knocked off the price. Pure speculation. Part of me thinks that the FL have underestimated the smarts of both the admins and the legal people that would have been employed by pinnacle, though it could just be admins and pinnacle trying their luck. I think both pinnacle and admins would have expected this reaction from the FL; knowing it would be challenged. So the fact that they put in all the paperwork at the 11th hour and current high media coverage (partly due to keegan rumor) does whiff of some sort of plan by the two groups to maximise the pressure on the FL. Again, all pure speculation. The interesting thing for me is that Fry specifically came out and said that there was a very strong case for the football club not to get a deduction as the football club was definitely not in administration and that was before the FL had the previous emergency meeting following their 'independent' accounting standards review. Now, a man in his position would surely not have gone public on that issue so readily unless there was a very strong legal case for not getting the deduction so this smacks of the FL not getting their rules watertight and then trying to save face with other clubs by hoping Fry and any new owners would simply forget about it and move on. It seems that is not the case and therefore I suspect the FL are on very dodgy ground. After all, why would they bother with an emergency meeting otherwise? Surely if they were not worried they would simply say 'go ahead boys and take your chances, we are watertight on this one and don't need no meeting to resolve it as we stick by our decision.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petts Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 The interesting thing for me is that Fry specifically came out and said that there was a very strong case for the football club not to get a deduction as the football club was definitely not in administration and that was before the FL had the previous emergency meeting following their 'independent' accounting standards review. Now, a man in his position would surely not have gone public on that issue so readily unless there was a very strong legal case for not getting the deduction so this smacks of the FL not getting their rules watertight and then trying to save face with other clubs by hoping Fry and any new owners would simply forget about it and move on. It seems that is not the case and therefore I suspect the FL are on very dodgy ground. After all, why would they bother with an emergency meeting otherwise? Surely if they were not worried they would simply say 'go ahead boys and take your chances, we are watertight on this one and don't need no meeting to resolve it as we stick by our decision.' Yeah, thats a good point about the emergency meeting and like you say it does suggest that the FL are very concerned about how to deal with this. For me, I just hope that this doesn't mean the takeover gets dragged out longer than Monday as we need to start preparing for the new season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Army Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I see it like this: everything is agreed but the parties need clarification / guarantees from The Football League which require an emergency meeting for ratification. That could not be held yesterday or today so Monday it will have to be. have a good weekend folks, see you all again next week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. From the report on SSN the FL only put in these demands today and they were not only unacceptable to Pinnacle but unacceptable to Begbies Taylor as well. Fry knows damn well that any of the one of the other consortia reportedly lined up, would not accept these demands either and if they are not removed, I fear everyone will walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildgoose Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 I see it like this: everything is agreed but the parties need clarification / guarantees from The Football League which require an emergency meeting for ratification. That could not be held yesterday or today so Monday it will have to be. have a good weekend folks, see you all again next week! I do hope you're right! That would be the best possible outcome right now! ...and thanks to Tony Lynam for taking the trouble to communicate with the fans. I hope you can resolve all this successfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Headed Jesus Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 fl@football-league.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwichsaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 'The FL have a duty to the club ... it's supporters ... blah blah blah' Do they fck! They would love to break the SFC butterfly on their greedy corparate wheel ... pour encourager les autres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red and White Army Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 From the report on SSN the FL only put in these demands today and they were not only unacceptable to Pinnacle but unacceptable to Begbies Taylor as well. If the FA went back on their word or changed their position in the three months then I can accept it is not Pinnacle's fault. If they simply didn't bother talking to the FA and not checking then it smacks of amateur hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwichsaint Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Where the fck has this come from? I'm ****ed, it's 12.30 in the morning, and yesterday I thought we had KK comin' as manager! Oh to be a Saints fan (and never get out of it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. Pinnacle should have been aware the the Football League were at the last minute going to demand a written statement saying that they would not launch an appeal, something which every club has the right to and which has already been previously confirmed by Mawhinny? Should they have found this out by using their crystal ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 Pinnacle are NOT buying the company that went into administration and that is the crux of the whole matter. It would seem that the FL want Pinnacle to give up any right of appeal- and that would seem to be a completely illegal stance to take. It seems to be against all principles of law in this country. Morally we should perhaps take the 10 point deduction- but legally I believe that we don't need to. The FL have got themselves in a VERY difficult position. I believe Pinnacle have EVERY right to insist on a 'right of appeal' and should NOT back down and I do not believe for a second that this situation arose today, Pinnacle will have been looking at the 10 point deduction from the moment they became interested in the club. It would seem that Pinnacle have decent finances behind them and therefore can probably pay for decent legal advice. The law may be an ass but it is 'the law' and has to be abided by. You cannot change the law to suit your argument and that is what the FL seem to be trying to do. And a BIG thank you to Tony for being so honest with the fans and letting us know the situation. It is a VERY welcome change. This is how i see it. I believe we need to fight the football league tooth and nail on this. Lord Mawhinney needs to be brought down a peg or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PixieHead Posted 19 June, 2009 Share Posted 19 June, 2009 If the FA went back on their word or changed their position in the three months then I can accept it is not Pinnacle's fault. If they simply didn't bother talking to the FA and not checking then it smacks of amateur hour. Speaking of amateur hour, it's the Football League we're dealing with and not the FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 OK Folks, we are all quite rightly mightly pi**ed off with the FL, but let's turn that anger and rage to good use. Let's have a new threat / sticky for a call to action and make sure the FL are fully aware of the fans feelings. I have emailed FL, Sky, SFC to express my anger and disapointment at the injustice - don't have a problem with the final outcome but even a child molester, murderer and terrorist has a right of appeal, so just who the f**k do the FL think they are? Let's get a campaign going and I am sure we will get wide spread support - the FL are like a bully, they will only get away with it if we let them. In this day and age is there any other institution that could get away with this??? I am not a full member and so cannot start a new thread, but please can someone do so - let us not suffer in silence. A lot of the traditional highly respected institutions (politicians, clergy, police etc etc.) have been "outed", and it is high time for the FL. It is amazing how effective everyone on this site emailing their MP, Sky, FL, SFC, Echo, Pinnacle, Mark Fry, Gordon Brown, Jeff Stelling etc. etc. will achieve. If you care for your club, justice and screwing the FL - GET EMAILING (AND THE STICKY SET UP). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint lard Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 I am tearful at the fact that we,the fans seem to matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Apparently you can send a personal message to Lordy at http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theyworkforyou.com%2Fpeer%2Flord_mawhinney&who=31769 I have sent the message below (you have to be polite etc. for it to be forwarded to the "new" dark lord - could he possibly be more hated than RL??? Maybe not yet??). Anyway, I think it's no harm to bombard him with our views (politely please, or they will not get forwarded to the dark side) prior to the Monday meeting. Feel free to copy/cut/paste/etc. but do please show the strenght of our feeling. p.s. not sure of the sentiments behind the previous poster's comments (saint lard), but sadly or otherwise, the fans do matter !!!! Dear Lord Mawhinney, Considering you have been an extremely successful and effective politician, campaigning for justice and the less fortunate, for which you are to be applauded, why on earth would you deprive anyone of their right to justice or appeal? Confused? Well so are all of the supporters of Southampton Football Club, otherwise known as “The Saints”, as opposed to Southampton Leisure Holding (SLH). It is our understanding, that the Football League and yourself in particular have issued an ultimatum, or rather a blackmail threat, that you will personally sanction the permanent elimination of a great community and family friendly football club for the sole reason of their not waiving every person’s god given right of a fair hearing? As a politician, public figure, Lord, but most importantly chair of the Football League, kindly extend us the courtesy of confirming your stance, and then justifying it. I wonder if the FL is the only and last institution that is not accountable to the rigours of the general public and common laws of the land – which would be quite ironic for an institution supposedly representing the game of “the common people”. I, respectfully look forward to your early reply. Yours sincerely, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 The interesting thing for me is that Fry specifically came out and said that there was a very strong case for the football club not to get a deduction as the football club was definitely not in administration and that was before the FL had the previous emergency meeting following their 'independent' accounting standards review. Now, a man in his position would surely not have gone public on that issue so readily unless there was a very strong legal case for not getting the deduction so this smacks of the FL not getting their rules watertight and then trying to save face with other clubs by hoping Fry and any new owners would simply forget about it and move on. It seems that is not the case and therefore I suspect the FL are on very dodgy ground. After all, why would they bother with an emergency meeting otherwise? Surely if they were not worried they would simply say 'go ahead boys and take your chances, we are watertight on this one and don't need no meeting to resolve it as we stick by our decision.' I think (and hope) that this is a good summary. Fry and Pinnacle would have received very good legal advice on all of this - and probably much better and more extensive legal advice than the FL has seen fit to pay for (after all, this is not a life and death matter for the Football League, but it is for us). Procedurally, I suspect it's the FL who are in a mess - but tactically, we are now days away from extinction and they aren't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. Whilst you gloss over all the incompetences of the Lowe years that brought us here. At least you arent shy about your luvviness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 The interesting thing for me is that Fry specifically came out and said that there was a very strong case for the football club not to get a deduction as the football club was definitely not in administration and that was before the FL had the previous emergency meeting following their 'independent' accounting standards review. Now, a man in his position would surely not have gone public on that issue so readily unless there was a very strong legal case for not getting the deduction so this smacks of the FL not getting their rules watertight and then trying to save face with other clubs by hoping Fry and any new owners would simply forget about it and move on. It seems that is not the case and therefore I suspect the FL are on very dodgy ground. After all, why would they bother with an emergency meeting otherwise? Surely if they were not worried they would simply say 'go ahead boys and take your chances, we are watertight on this one and don't need no meeting to resolve it as we stick by our decision.' Yep, the FL are taking their ball home. They've got it wrong big time, they know a legal challenge would succed and an appeal within their own system would make them look stupid, and it seems to me the only thing they've got to fall back in "its our competition".. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. Once again, this post shows the ability of people with little knowledge of fact to enjoy criticising. Where has it been said this was never discussed? All the information suggests that this issue has come from FL adding a condition of registration at the last minute - hardly Pinnacles fault. Fry has said this is not an issue about Pinnacle, it appears to be about how he has sold the club and the FL's take on that. Fry said any purchaser would be in the same boat. The fact that you have made up criticisms and ignored fact for the opportunity to slag off pinnacle is not impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wessex saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 To think 24 hrs ago I was in 7th heaven with a dream ticket of MLT as chairman, KK as manager, and an owner worth several hundred million. 10 point penalty or not Tony, please make this happen as I think the alternatives to the Pinnacle bid failing would leave us in a very poor position in comparison. I was 7yrs old when KK signed for Saints - went to my 1st game a couple of momnths later when we beat Boro 4-0 last game of the season. Following season me and me dad had season tickets in the Family Centre and saw every game KK played for Saints. Still had them when MLT started playing. For me they are the 2 footballers who were my idols as a kid - the idea of them joining forces to lift us out of the ****e we are now in has me wetting myself!! Before you all shoot me down - yes - I am a romantic who just wants to see something incredibly positive happen to our club. Would be the first time it has for many a year (aside from Lowe doing one). And yes - I'm writing this at 6.30am cos I can't sleep due to feeling sick over this whole thing. 10 point penalty or not I reckon we'd nearly fill SMS every wk if we had the 'dream ticket' at the helm. Bugger - not writing coherently due to sleep deprivation cos I'm so goddam worried about my club:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. This is just an appalling post. Attacking Pinnacle is one thing. Doing it by making supposition after supposition to show them in the worst light really brings your motives into serious question. How do you KNOW that there was no reason why this became a last minute issue? How do you KNOW that Pinnacle had not been in discussion with the FL (NOT the FA, by the way) How do you KNOW that Pinnacle ignored the issue and 'let it slip' past their exclusivity period. The answer to all of the above is that you don't. And yet each implicit claim to superior ITK is essential to your case that you appear to have known all along, at least in your own mind, that your 'doubts' would be realised. And all of the above are essential to your apparent belief that Pinnacle are exactly on a par with the cretinous Wilde. Surreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alehouseboys Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Apparently you can send a personal message to Lordy at http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theyworkforyou.com%2Fpeer%2Flord_mawhinney&who=31769 I have sent the message below (you have to be polite etc. for it to be forwarded to the "new" dark lord - could he possibly be more hated than RL??? Maybe not yet??). Anyway, I think it's no harm to bombard him with our views (politely please, or they will not get forwarded to the dark side) prior to the Monday meeting. Feel free to copy/cut/paste/etc. but do please show the strenght of our feeling. p.s. not sure of the sentiments behind the previous poster's comments (saint lard), but sadly or otherwise, the fans do matter !!!! Dear Lord Mawhinney, Considering you have been an extremely successful and effective politician, campaigning for justice and the less fortunate, for which you are to be applauded, why on earth would you deprive anyone of their right to justice or appeal? Confused? Well so are all of the supporters of Southampton Football Club, otherwise known as “The Saints”, as opposed to Southampton Leisure Holding (SLH). It is our understanding, that the Football League and yourself in particular have issued an ultimatum, or rather a blackmail threat, that you will personally sanction the permanent elimination of a great community and family friendly football club for the sole reason of their not waiving every person’s god given right of a fair hearing? As a politician, public figure, Lord, but most importantly chair of the Football League, kindly extend us the courtesy of confirming your stance, and then justifying it. I wonder if the FL is the only and last institution that is not accountable to the rigours of the general public and common laws of the land – which would be quite ironic for an institution supposedly representing the game of “the common people”. I, respectfully look forward to your early reply. Yours sincerely, This * http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theyworkforyou.com%2Fpeer%2Flord_mawhinney&who=31769 * needs to be made a sticky - BUT...good letter 'Red', only DON'T just copy-and-paste as suggested as it wont get through. Was just gonna add my twopenneth when read that on their 'do's and dont's'. Email away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 (edited) Having slept on all the shenanigans of yesterday some thoughts. The FL can do what they like. It's their ball, if we don't like it they just take it home. We don't agree, then they will not allow us to play in the League next season. Yes we will then go to court, but how long could that take? Sheff Utd's case took two years. Would we wait two years without football just to prove a point? The comments about the Right of Appeal - simplistic example - you cannot appeal a booking, and Darren Fletcher missed the CL final as UEFA rules on red cards are different from the PL rules, their rules. More to the point, going back over the past weeks, there were rumours of problems with the Pinnacle bid, they then ran out of time. I believe that those rumours could well have caused Fry to make the decision NOT to extend exclusivity. Now Pinnacle are faced with the possibility that Fry could accept a higher bid from somebody else, after ALL that work and cost, that is one HELL of a risk to take - WHY? Now THIS could be an interesting scenario to get out of this catch-22 - Pinnacle have spent a LOT of money, including their deposit. Their deal effectively falters because of the FL. Now IF Pinnacle then lose out, THEY are in the position where they are not bound by FL rules, BUT have been damaged by a decision which is effectively not justifiable under UK corporate law. IF they owned the club, and went to court claiming their letter was illegal, then the FL simply refuse to let them play in L1. BUT IF they are beaten by another bidder, then THEY would most likely have a REALLY strong case for damages in action against the FL..... Their court action then would not harm the club, they would likely win, which would then leave the FL in an even BIGGER mess of damages and suddenly the new owners of the club have a situation where the FL have been proven to have acted illegally (which CAN actually happen - remember the Bosman ruling). In this scenario, Pinnacle could claim their costs back and compensation and the 10 point deduction could be proven in court to be illegal, but WITHOUT the club facing sanctions itself. Now, THIS places the FL back into a very difficult position, and my guess would be that their lawyers may also work it out. Their ONLY solution would be to ensure that Pinnacle DO in fact complete the purchase on Monday and to PRAY that nobody else comes in before hand. Tactically it would mean that we could expect to see a whole set of media/PR/legal statements coming out over the weekend. Own the club - cannot sue - lose the club - sue and have a dead cert win... Simple summary - Pinnacle can do this, but we as fans should go find tin helmets and kevlar underwear, it needs to be a very hard-ars8d game of brinkmanship leading up to that meeting, and likely needs some help to play the bad guys to push the FL into a compromise. Interesting weekend. LAWYERS - Sharpen Your Pencils! Edited 20 June, 2009 by dubai_phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Pinnacle are NOT buying the company that went into administration and that is the crux of the whole matter. It would seem that the FL want Pinnacle to give up any right of appeal- and that would seem to be a completely illegal stance to take. It seems to be against all principles of law in this country. Morally we should perhaps take the 10 point deduction- but legally I believe that we don't need to. The FL have got themselves in a VERY difficult position. I believe Pinnacle have EVERY right to insist on a 'right of appeal' and should NOT back down and I do not believe for a second that this situation arose today, Pinnacle will have been looking at the 10 point deduction from the moment they became interested in the club. It would seem that Pinnacle have decent finances behind them and therefore can probably pay for decent legal advice. The law may be an ass but it is 'the law' and has to be abided by. You cannot change the law to suit your argument and that is what the FL seem to be trying to do. And a BIG thank you to Tony for being so honest with the fans and letting us know the situation. It is a VERY welcome change. i agree morally we should take the 10 point deduction ,but has leicester city and derby found loopholes in the past which helped those clubs. i think the football league know that they are in a sticky position and should allow the club a appeal against the points deduction and then tighten up their own rulebook , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewell Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 The letters to the football league are a great idea but many people won't bother doing this. How about setting up an online petition to the football league that can be published on this forum and others, the Saints OS, facebook and forward on to other football fans? Surely no person whether they think the point’s deduction is fair or not can agree with a person or entity not having a right to appeal? If the FL realise the strength of feeling it may just influence their decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 The letters to the football league are a great idea but many people won't bother doing this. How about setting up an online petition to the football league that can be published on this forum and others, the Saints OS, facebook and forward on to other football fans? Surely no person whether they think the point’s deduction is fair or not can agree with a person or entity not having a right to appeal? If the FL realise the strength of feeling it may just influence their decision. Agree, you'll probably get other clubs fans willing to sign too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW11_Saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 And yes - I'm writing this at 6.30am cos I can't sleep due to feeling sick over this whole thing. Me too - was awake before 7am (on a Saturday!) and even dreamt about the Saints situation!!! Let's hope this gets resolved - to lose Pinnacle, MLT et al now would be heartbreaking. To lose the club altogether doesn't bare thinking about. Anyway, gonna go to the pub later today and watch the Lions (the egg chasing game) and try to forget things for a bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 One things for sure,there are going to be a lot of rich lawyers come Monday. I also think we will come to regret p1ssing off the FL,if things don't go good for them then they will be gunning for us forever so our best form of defense is to get back to the Orem in 2 years and stay there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Having slept on all the shenanigans of yesterday some thoughts. The FL can do what they like. It's their ball, if we don't like it they just take it home. We don't agree, then they will not allow us to play in the League next season. Yes we will then go to court, but how long could that take? Sheff Utd's case took two years. Would we wait two years without football just to prove a point? The comments about the Right of Appeal - simplistic example - you cannot appeal a booking, and Darren Fletcher missed the CL final as UEFA rules on red cards are different from the PL rules, their rules. More to the point, going back over the past weeks, there were rumours of problems with the Pinnacle bid, they then ran out of time. I believe that those rumours could well have caused Fry to make the decision NOT to extend exclusivity. Now Pinnacle are faced with the possibility that Fry could accept a higher bid from somebody else, after ALL that work and cost, that is one HELL of a risk to take - WHY? Now THIS could be an interesting scenario to get out of this catch-22 - Pinnacle have spent a LOT of money, including their deposit. Their deal effectively falters because of the FL. Now IF Pinnacle then lose out, THEY are in the position where they are not bound by FL rules, BUT have been damaged by a decision which is effectively not justifiable under UK corporate law. IF they owned the club, and went to court claiming their letter was illegal, then the FL simply refuse to let them play in L1. BUT IF they are beaten by another bidder, then THEY would most likely have a REALLY strong case for damages in action against the FL..... Their court action then would not harm the club, they would likely win, which would then leave the FL in an even BIGGER mess of damages and suddenly the new owners of the club have a situation where the FL have been proven to have acted illegally (which CAN actually happen - remember the Bosman ruling). In this scenario, Pinnacle could claim their costs back and compensation and the 10 point deduction could be proven in court to be illegal, but WITHOUT the club facing sanctions itself. Now, THIS places the FL back into a very difficult position, and my guess would be that their lawyers may also work it out. Their ONLY solution would be to ensure that Pinnacle DO in fact complete the purchase on Monday and to PRAY that nobody else comes in before hand. Tactically it would mean that we could expect to see a whole set of media/PR/legal statements coming out over the weekend. Own the club - cannot sue - lose the club - sue and have a dead cert win... Simple summary - Pinnacle can do this, but we as fans should go find tin helmets and kevlar underwear, it needs to be a very hard-ars8d game of brinkmanship leading up to that meeting, and likely needs some help to play the bad guys to push the FL into a compromise. Interesting weekend. LAWYERS - Sharpen Your Pencils! Wow. An interesting angle. The FL are basically in a lose-lose situation if this pans out like this. Maybe they should have not gone forward with all the Rambo punitive punishments in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIGANSAINT Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 they could sign what the fa want and still appeal,as the piece of paper means nothing, did the fa forget the bosman ruling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Block 5 Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Having slept on all the shenanigans of yesterday some thoughts. The FL can do what they like. It's their ball, if we don't like it they just take it home. We don't agree, then they will not allow us to play in the League next season. Yes we will then go to court, but how long could that take? Sheff Utd's case took two years. Would we wait two years without football just to prove a point? The comments about the Right of Appeal - simplistic example - you cannot appeal a booking, and Darren Fletcher missed the CL final as UEFA rules on red cards are different from the PL rules, their rules. More to the point, going back over the past weeks, there were rumours of problems with the Pinnacle bid, they then ran out of time. I believe that those rumours could well have caused Fry to make the decision NOT to extend exclusivity. Now Pinnacle are faced with the possibility that Fry could accept a higher bid from somebody else, after ALL that work and cost, that is one HELL of a risk to take - WHY? Now THIS could be an interesting scenario to get out of this catch-22 - Pinnacle have spent a LOT of money, including their deposit. Their deal effectively falters because of the FL. Now IF Pinnacle then lose out, THEY are in the position where they are not bound by FL rules, BUT have been damaged by a decision which is effectively not justifiable under UK corporate law. IF they owned the club, and went to court claiming their letter was illegal, then the FL simply refuse to let them play in L1. BUT IF they are beaten by another bidder, then THEY would most likely have a REALLY strong case for damages in action against the FL..... Their court action then would not harm the club, they would likely win, which would then leave the FL in an even BIGGER mess of damages and suddenly the new owners of the club have a situation where the FL have been proven to have acted illegally (which CAN actually happen - remember the Bosman ruling). In this scenario, Pinnacle could claim their costs back and compensation and the 10 point deduction could be proven in court to be illegal, but WITHOUT the club facing sanctions itself. Now, THIS places the FL back into a very difficult position, and my guess would be that their lawyers may also work it out. Their ONLY solution would be to ensure that Pinnacle DO in fact complete the purchase on Monday and to PRAY that nobody else comes in before hand. Tactically it would mean that we could expect to see a whole set of media/PR/legal statements coming out over the weekend. Own the club - cannot sue - lose the club - sue and have a dead cert win... Simple summary - Pinnacle can do this, but we as fans should go find tin helmets and kevlar underwear, it needs to be a very hard-ars8d game of brinkmanship leading up to that meeting, and likely needs some help to play the bad guys to push the FL into a compromise. Interesting weekend. LAWYERS - Sharpen Your Pencils! Sleepless night Phil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 Once again, this puts Pinnacle in a terribly unprofessional light. There is absolutely no reason why this needed to be a last minute issue. This should be been discussed and resolved with the FA over the last 3 weeks, if not before. Transferring registration is hardly a surprise event that jumped out of nowhere to shock Pinnacle - they woulpd have known about this all along. The fact they ignored the issue and let it slip past their exclusivity period is not impressive. Once again, the doubts I expressed right at the start of this "takeover" are coming to the fore. I have exactly the same feelings as I did with Mike Wilde - I continue to wish with all my heart that I am wrong this time. 1, its the FL not the FA. 2, The FL sprung the "its yours if you drop the appeal" gem on them at the last minute. so no it does not put pinnicle in an unprofessional light at all, more so the FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrylove Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 This * http://www.writetothem.com/write?fyr_extref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theyworkforyou.com%2Fpeer%2Flord_mawhinney&who=31769 * needs to be made a sticky - BUT...good letter 'Red', only DON'T just copy-and-paste as suggested as it wont get through. Was just gonna add my twopenneth when read that on their 'do's and dont's'. Email away. Just did the same,don't copy and paste as said above,give him hell lads! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burger Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 1, its the FL not the FA. 2, The FL sprung the "its yours if you drop the appeal" gem on them at the last minute. so no it does not put pinnicle in an unprofessional light at all, more so the FL Do we actually know for a fact that the FL position is "drop the appeal"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 One of the problems with this, like other rumours, is that we do not know the full facts! We, like the media, are assuming that it is all to do with the 10 points deduction and the new owners signing away a right to appeal. This just does not fit. It is to simplistic and full of legal holes. What if it is all to do with the fact that the new owners are asking for confirmation that the golden share will be transfered to the new company but the football league not prepared to give that undertaking until the club is out of administration (puting aside the argument of whether it is the club or just SLH in Admin). A catch 22 but something that can be resolved following the FL emergency meeting on Monday. Tony Lynam seems to think the remaining issues can be overcome. It has to be something simpler than the signing away the right of appeal. Malwhinney has already gone on record on that point. Unless of course there was a time limit for the appeal which has passed or a deadline for coming out of Administration passed requiring a special meeting by the FL to sanction "readmittance" Plenty of speculation but no real knowledge of the facts! We need to wait and see what develops next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 One of the problems with this, like other rumours, is that we do not know the full facts! We, like the media, are assuming that it is all to do with the 10 points deduction and the new owners signing away a right to appeal. This just does not fit. It is to simplistic and full of legal holes. What if it is all to do with the fact that the new owners are asking for confirmation that the golden share will be transfered to the new company but the football league not prepared to give that undertaking until the club is out of administration (puting aside the argument of whether it is the club or just SLH in Admin). A catch 22 but something that can be resolved following the FL emergency meeting on Monday. Tony Lynam seems to think the remaining issues can be overcome. It has to be something simpler than the signing away the right of appeal. Malwhinney has already gone on record on that point. Unless of course there was a time limit for the appeal which has passed or a deadline for coming out of Administration passed requiring a special meeting by the FL to sanction "readmittance" Plenty of speculation but no real knowledge of the facts! We need to wait and see what develops next week. Well you have made me feel better, thanks, and gathering all the little scraps of info (Mr Lynam's post, MLT on SSN etc) that would certainly make a lot more sense than the right to appeal issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evo Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 That's my current thinking Weston, we've been swept along a bit by the media yesterday. Things are never exactly as they seem to us without all the facts, as I pondered yesterday. http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=336043&postcount=36 Having slept on all the shenanigans of yesterday some thoughts. Tactically it would mean that we could expect to see a whole set of media/PR/legal statements coming out over the weekend. Own the club - cannot sue - lose the club - sue and have a dead cert win... Simple summary - Pinnacle can do this, but we as fans should go find tin helmets and kevlar underwear, it needs to be a very hard-ars8d game of brinkmanship leading up to that meeting, and likely needs some help to play the bad guys to push the FL into a compromise. Interesting weekend. LAWYERS - Sharpen Your Pencils! Interesting thoughts Phil, though I'd be surprised if the FL were so foolhardy as to put any restrictive term requirements in writing! They may have given a verbal indication of what would be needed before permitting the transfer of the share/license. I note that the main FL rules say nothing about that, leaving me to conclude that they can basically say we don't want to give you a license and we don't have to explain why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITKSaint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 The FL can do what they like. I think this bit about covered it. Yes they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 I think this bit about covered it. Yes they can. No they are covered by European common law and statute like everyone else including the British Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopkins Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 I think alot of you underestimate how the media works. The reason they are talking about the 10 point deduction is because its about the 10 point deduction. One thing some of you need to know about the word "sources" when it is involved in the media...It normally means the person involved. In this example "Sky sources" would be Matt Le Tissier or Mark Fry. If "Sky sources understands that it is to do with the 10 point deduction" it means that Matty or Mark Fry has phoned up that guy outside St Marys and said "The football league are being ****s to do with this points deduction, however were not allowed to talk about it so just say its your sources that believe this is the reason" Its there communication with the fans without actually putting there name to it. Same goes for things like Peter and Jordan saga. When sources close to Jordan say "Peter is a *****" its Jordan saying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITKSaint Posted 20 June, 2009 Share Posted 20 June, 2009 No they are covered by European common law and statute like everyone else including the British Government. Does anyone seriously think the club would 'win' in any form of legal action against the FL? If you don't like what the FL league is offering, there is an alternative. Otherwise it's about compromising on the narrow options the FL would offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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