Message from Tony Lynam - 18:55

[sotonswan]

My understanding, which may be entirely wrong is that the league management consists of some paid employees and a group of other clubs chairmen. Hardly an independent, unbiased body in my mind to give us a fair hearing. It seems they can make up their own rules and revise the interpretation as they go along. If you don't agree they dock more points and or see you go bust.

 

I think you're pretty close there.

 

I have to say I'm very surprised that the FL seems to be denying a right of appeal. This is all looking very Leeds-ish, except worse.

 

IIRC Leeds were docked -15 points for not coming out of admin via a CVA, appealed and all the clubs voted (bar 2) that the penalthy be upheld. But there WAS an appeal.

 

Subsequently Leeds were asked to sign away their legal right to appeal through the courts agains the FL. They did so (under duress, so they claimed) and then set about appealing through the courts, which dragged on all season (and delayed Swansea being crowned L1 Champions). They eventually agreed to have the matter adjudicated by an independent tribunal, which found for the FL, basically saying it's a club of members and the members have voted. End of.

 

There are some differences here.

 

a) Are we REALLY talking about the -10 for going INTO admin or -15 for not coming out via CVA?

 

b) Leeds had a right of appeal through the FL, so why should Southampton not? I am not a lawyer, but all bodies have to abide by their own procedures, including appeals procedures. That's a basis for appeal through the courts which cannot be revoked.

 

c) If Southampton are granted an appeal, and it goes to a vote of all L1 clubs, what level of sympathy do you expect from the rest of the L1 clubs? Arguably Southampton FC (and its owners, and fans) are getting a s****y stadium for a super knockdown price, which would seem to indicate that there HAS been a material benefit for the club as a result of the holding company going into administration.

 

-10 I think would be absorbable and not affect a purchase. -25 (see point (a) above) is another matter. So which is it I wonder?

[um pahars]

I'm no legal expert but surely 'we' (the club/Pinnacle) have a legal right to appeal the FL's decision, so to try and prevent us doing so is potentially illegal?

 

If that's true about 'only if you don't appeal' then that has to be illegal doesn't it...

 

The League will do a Leeds and make us agree not to take legal action in return for transferring the Golden Share.

 

There's loads of articles relating to agreeing not to pursue legal action and the other member clubs voting against Leeds.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-474274/Leeds-slam-perverse-decision-uphold-points-penalty.html

 

This is not a normal business transaction "dispute", this is a totally different ball game and although I'm massively oversimplifying it, the general gist is if we want to play ball we have to abide by their rules ad ad hoc decisions, as made by the league and its members.

 

The League and the member clubs will quite clearly look at substance over form and see that although the Football Club never went into adminsitration, the parent company did as a direct result of the football club's trading position.

[sotonswan]

I cannot believe that swear filter. The word was S W @ N K Y.

[St Chalet]

If SLH is wound up it cannot exit via a CVA, thus putting the league into a whirlwind of contradiction!

[NickG]

I am relaxed about this and looking forward to MLT and the new season

[hasper57saint]

For what it's worth.I taught Law for a considerable number of years and reliably inform you that 'The Right of Appeal' is sacrosant in English law. The FL know this but appear insistent that they will NOT negotiate over the Ten points deduction for next season. Whether or not they dig their heels in now is irrelevant as the Right of Appeal has to be recognised.

Murderers have the right of appeal but it dosen't mean they always get off. The FL Lawyers are probably advising the Board at this very moment.

[Guided Missile]

This is not a normal business transaction "dispute", this is a totally different ball game and although I'm massively oversimplifying it, the general gist is if we want to play ball we have to abide by their rules ad ad hoc decisions, as made by the league and its members.

 

The League and the member clubs will quite clearly look at substance over form and see that although the Football Club never went into adminsitration, the parent company did as a direct result of the football club's trading position.

Bang on the money, Steve and correct me if I'm wrong, but this would have been known before Pinnacle made their offer, wouldn't it?

[um pahars]

I cannot believe that swear filter. The word was S W @ N K Y.

 

LOL. when I first read it, I read it as shtty and therefore thought you were contradicting yourself and couldn't understand your point.

 

But your premise with getting a swnky stadium on the cheap is spot on as there is no doubt that even if technically the Club has not gone into administratin, the football club will have benefitted by getting alot of debt knocked off.

 

Therefore I don't see why the member clubs would vote to treat us any differently than those that have gone into administration before us.

[Burger]

For what it's worth.I taught Law for a considerable number of years and reliably inform you that 'The Right of Appeal' is sacrosant in English law. The FL know this but appear insistent that they will NOT negotiate over the Ten points deduction for next season. Whether or not they dig their heels in now is irrelevant as the Right of Appeal has to be recognised.

Murderers have the right of appeal but it dosen't mean they always get off. The FL Lawyers are probably advising the Board at this very moment.

 

but is this really about the right of appeal or about the FL approving Prinacle contracts for SFC Ltd and not SLH. If the FL agree then they will be adding to weight to our appeal. Can Pinancle re-cut the whole deal to satisfy the FL view that both entities are linked?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The League will do a Leeds and make us agree not to take legal action in return for transferring the Golden Share.

 

There's loads of articles relating to agreeing not to pursue legal action and the other member clubs voting against Leeds.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-474274/Leeds-slam-perverse-decision-uphold-points-penalty.html

 

This is not a normal business transaction "dispute", this is a totally different ball game and although I'm massively oversimplifying it, the general gist is if we want to play ball we have to abide by their rules ad ad hoc decisions, as made by the league and its members.

 

The League and the member clubs will quite clearly look at substance over form and see that although the Football Club never went into adminsitration, the parent company did as a direct result of the football club's trading position.

 

Steve understand completely what you are saying but aren't the days of "cosy don't rock the boat or you can't join our League" over? Or am I totally niaive?

[View From The Top]

Bang on the money, Steve and correct me if I'm wrong, but this would have been known before Pinnacle made their offer, wouldn't it?

 

You appear desperate for it to all fall through so you can say "told you so".

 

I'm sure you're not as a Saints fan, but you certainly appear to be.

[surrey1saint]

Thanks Tony for the update,I felt really down after the SSN reporters negative take on todays events.

 

Feel better now.

[John Smith]

No it didn't, we were in the FA Premier League at the time, nothing to do with the Football League.

 

Silly me, and I apologise to the FL, they obviously weren't aware of what the PL allowed us to do and sanctioned it. I do find it ironic that their defence will be to plead ignorance though, because if they were aware of the situation, they should have a. kicked us out of the league when we got relegated or b. altered the rules to allow for this exact scenario. They didn't and therefore, with their actions, or lack of it, confirmed the PL's sanction and thus sanctioned it themselves by allowing us to continue playing. Oh, unless you're just saying that the FL are incompetent?

[Guided Missile]

You appear desperate for it to all fall through so you can say "told you so".

 

I'm sure you're not as a Saints fan, but you certainly appear to be.

So the correct approach is what you and Pinnacle are advocating, which is to stand firm, tell the league to f*** off and see them in court, then?

 

I'm suggesting they pay the money they agreed, for the club that had a 10 point deduction when they made their offer, which presumably had factored in the 10 point deduction and make the 10 points up on the back of the euphoria generated by our new, multi-millionaire owner and 5 year plan.

 

Remember the 5 year plan???? 10 points doesn't seem a lot over 5 years, does it?

[m735]

Best of luck and lets all hope it gets sorted soon.

[Matthew Le God]

 

Remember the 5 year plan???? 10 points doesn't seem a lot over 5 years, does it?

 

It could turn it into a 6 year plan if we don't get promotion due to -10 points in 09/10 season. So could well be a big deal.

[Wiltshire Saint]

I'm suggesting they pay the money they agreed, for the club that had a 10 point deduction when they made their offer, which presumably had factored in the 10 point deduction and make the 10 points up on the back of the euphoria generated by our new, multi-millionaire owner and 5 year plan.

 

I'm with you 100%. Pinnacle were absolutely aware of the situation when they came in with a bid. The deduction is not a surprise to them and it would be incredibly naive to think that the decison to deduct points would be overturned. Another point, though I am sure many will disagree, is that we deserved the deduction. Other clubs have suffered a similar fate and to be honest we have tried to dupe our way out of the whole thing.

 

There is no one to blame here apart from Pinnacle, as far I am concerned.

[Give it to Ron]

It could turn it into a 6 year plan if we don't get promotion due to -10 points in 09/10 season. So could well be a big deal.

 

Well it could also be done in 3 with the right investment and management team and they are as good as they say.

[exit2]

So the correct approach is what you and Pinnacle are advocating, which is to stand firm, tell the league to f*** off and see them in court, then?

 

I'm suggesting they pay the money they agreed, for the club that had a 10 point deduction when they made their offer, which presumably had factored in the 10 point deduction and make the 10 points up on the back of the euphoria generated by our new, multi-millionaire owner and 5 year plan.

 

Remember the 5 year plan???? 10 points doesn't seem a lot over 5 years, does it?

 

I'm with you 100%. Pinnacle were absolutely aware of the situation when they came in with a bid. The deduction is not a surprise to them and it would be incredibly naive to think that the decison to deduct points would be overturned. Another point, though I am sure many will disagree, is that we deserved the deduction. Other clubs have suffered a similar fate and to be honest we have tried to dupe our way out of the whole thing.

 

There is no one to blame here apart from Pinnacle, as far I am concerned.

 

Ill say it again, everything was in place, the money, the director listings etc etc. The problem came when it came to Pinnacle signing the football license. Of course they knew about the 10 points, what they didnt know about until last night / today was the clause of "NON APPEAL". We might even not appeal against the 10 points, or appeal and lose. The problem here is having the right to appeal, which by British law is a legal requirement. Me personally woult take the 10 points, and we have but surely would you like to be able to question it

[Saint Charlie]

But what if the league just say no "its this deal or no deal" will Pinnacle actually pull out just because they can't appeal?

 

Or are they just trying to get the best deal?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

At this stage we can really only speculate as to the exact nature of the stumbling block but if it is as it seems and the FA are potentially holding up the deal then one would seriously have to question their conduct. They should have a duty to be acting on behalf of Southampton supporters (and there are many of us) to do do everything possible to preserve our club. They have an opportunity to faciliate a deal that will see us return to full financial health and if they choose to scupper this then they are being negligent. Morally most of us know that we probably should be docked 10 points (again its us the fans who get punished but rules are rules) but surely the FL should have enough confidence in there own rules to not sabotage the rescue of a great football club. That would be irresponsible. As I say though we can only speculate at the moment as to why the deal has been held up but I really hope the FL are on the fans side.

[um pahars]

I don't have a problem with Pinnacle trying it on. After all it's definitely worth giving the League a fright and seeing if there's any chance of gaining 10 points before the season starts, but we have to face up to the fact that we are very, very, very unlikely to get the League to back track.

 

They have all the power given it is up to them to transfer the Golden Share to us.

 

Try it on by all means, but I would be very surprised, if not worried if this -10 is a deal breaker!!!!

[Give it to Ron]

Ill say it again, everything was in place, the money, the director listings etc etc. The problem came when it came to Pinnacle signing the football license. Of course they knew about the 10 points, what they didnt know about until last night / today was the clause of "NON APPEAL". We might even not appeal against the 10 points, or appeal and lose. The problem here is having the right to appeal, which by British law is a legal requirement. Me personally woult take the 10 points, and we have but surely would you like to be able to question it

 

If they are risking all this on an appeal they may even lose - and history tells us they will then sorry there is more to this than that.

 

This is not new..it happens in all sorts of football, an example not dissimilar of over zealous officialdom last year one boys team missed registration by a couple of days due to an admin oversight. The team were refused entry even after an appeal. The league would rather 14 boys not play than bend their rules.

Everyone knows the rules and consequences and so did Pinnacle at the outset that we would in all likelihood start -10 to refuse to go ahead with the deal because of this is fishy to say the least.

[VectisSaint]

Ill say it again, everything was in place, the money, the director listings etc etc. The problem came when it came to Pinnacle signing the football license. Of course they knew about the 10 points, what they didnt know about until last night / today was the clause of "NON APPEAL". We might even not appeal against the 10 points, or appeal and lose. The problem here is having the right to appeal, which by British law is a legal requirement. Me personally woult take the 10 points, and we have but surely would you like to be able to question it

Well Pinnacle are extremely naive then (I don't actually believe this is the case by the way, there is something more going on here). If it was they only needed to have looked back at what happened to Leeds to have realised that this would be the case, and so why leave it until the last minute. All of this crap about legal requirements is missing the point. This is not a criminal law case, or even a commercial law case. These are the rules of a members only club. The members only club can make whatever rules they like as long as they are agreed by the members, and do not require members to act illegally. In this case the FL have every right (however unfair it may seem) to impose rules and demand agreement to those rules before admitting someone (or Saints in this case) as a member. At this moment in time Saints do not have a leg to stand on and no amount of gnashing of teeth will change this fact.

[stevegrant]

Ill say it again, everything was in place, the money, the director listings etc etc. The problem came when it came to Pinnacle signing the football license. Of course they knew about the 10 points, what they didnt know about until last night / today was the clause of "NON APPEAL". We might even not appeal against the 10 points, or appeal and lose. The problem here is having the right to appeal, which by British law is a legal requirement. Me personally woult take the 10 points, and we have but surely would you like to be able to question it

When has this "non-appeal" stuff come into play?

 

Didn't Mawhinney state that we had a right to appeal when the sanction was first imposed?

[Saint Charlie]

Near the bottom, right to appeal:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1173127/Southampton-set-appeal-10-point-penalty-consigns-relegation.html

Edited 19 June, 2009 by Saint Charlie

[Whitey Grandad]

When has this "non-appeal" stuff come into play?

 

Didn't Mawhinney state that we had a right to appeal when the sanction was first imposed?

He went out of his way to say so, which usually means that whoever said it expects an appeal to succeed. What possible reason can they have for insisting on a waiver of the 'Right to Appeal'? What would they have to lose?

[NickG]

I'm with you 100%. Pinnacle were absolutely aware of the situation when they came in with a bid. The deduction is not a surprise to them and it would be incredibly naive to think that the decison to deduct points would be overturned. Another point, though I am sure many will disagree, is that we deserved the deduction. Other clubs have suffered a similar fate and to be honest we have tried to dupe our way out of the whole thing.

 

There is no one to blame here apart from Pinnacle, as far I am concerned.

 

where have we tried to deceive anyone?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I agree Um Pahars, it seems strange that having put half a million into the pot Pinnacle would give up just because there is an outside chance we could over turn the ten point deduction. They may have very good legal advice and believe we can. It is all speculation as I say but the FL should be working with us not against us.

 

I just want to be able to take my children to see Saints play when they are old enough.

[um pahars]

When has this "non-appeal" stuff come into play?

 

Didn't Mawhinney state that we had a right to appeal when the sanction was first imposed?

 

He certainly mentioned it the second round of interviews on the subject (it was not in the first statement).

 

Why are they now playing hardball and potentially denying our right to appeal??? Because they can???

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Just read his comments in the Mail. Unbelievable if these comments are being contadicted, he should have to explain them if the rumours are true

[exit2]

Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney acknowledged the club do have the right to appeal. Speaking on Sky Sports News, he said: 'There is an appeal mechanism and it's up to Southampton to decide whether they want to appeal and on what basis.'

[Whitey Grandad]

He certainly mentioned it the second round of interviews on the subject (it was not in the first statement).

 

Why are they now playing hardball and potentially denying our right to appeal??? Because they can???

Let me get this clear... The rules as agreed by all member clubs are that if a club goes into administration they may be deducted 10 points but they have a right of appeal, such right to be non-existent if said club finds a buyer? That would apply to every such situation.

[Give it to Ron]

Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney acknowledged the club do have the right to appeal. Speaking on Sky Sports News, he said: 'There is an appeal mechanism and it's up to Southampton to decide whether they want to appeal and on what basis.'

 

Agreed he did say that then...but now it seems they have decided they have withdrawn that and if we don't like it then we don't have to play in their league.

Sorry if that sounds too simple but this is the FL who don't want to be shown up to be wrong so have denied us the opportunity to do this..we have no choice.

What about the repercussions if we win....the next time one of our players or club have trouble in the ground or break any minor reggulation we will have double the usual penalty.

 

Sorry this stinks of something else.

[rallyboy]

reading between the lines could it be that Pinnacle made the bid looking to appeal, BUT they are now being advised that if they don't give up that right, there may be no league slot for their new club to play in?

That would be a big problem however much you had paid.

 

Sounds to me like the league are playing hardball to cover up their obvious mistakes, but if they are a private members' club they can do whatever they want..... until someone takes them to court.

 

 

And thanks to Tony for his info and time, tis refreshing to have some honesty from/about the top of the club.

[Saint-Fred]

Don't agree with all this "Pinnacle should have known".."Why last minute" stuff.

 

Obviously they did know whatever this issue is- but they had 21 days to resolve it- but it only becomes a real issue when that time runs out and there still is no resolution or movement.

 

IMO this is likely to be around further points deductions (How many teams end up with just the 10 points deduction in reality?) the FL is dreaming up which would effectively relegate us again...Would you want to buy a club virtually guarenteed Division 4 football next year?

A five year plan to get back to the prem then would be very ambitous!

[mcjwills]

Don't agree with all this "Pinnacle should have known".."Why last minute" stuff.

 

Obviously they did know whatever this issue is- but they had 21 days to resolve it- but it only becomes a real issue when that time runs out and there still is no resolution or movement.

 

IMO this is likely to be around further points deductions (How many teams end up with just the 10 points deduction in reality?) the FL is dreaming up which would effectively relegate us again...Would you want to buy a club virtually guarenteed Division 4 football next year?

A five year plan to get back to the prem then would be very ambitous!

 

Thats the worry

[Whitey Grandad]

Thats the worry

As a probable buyer you would certainly want this cleared up before coughing up the dosh. How about: 'we'll sign that we accept the 10 points but we want a guarantee that there won't be any more to follow'?

[lordswoodsaints]

Football League chairman Lord Mawhinney acknowledged the club do have the right to appeal. Speaking on Sky Sports News, he said: 'There is an appeal mechanism and it's up to Southampton to decide whether they want to appeal and on what basis.'

Am I right in saying that we have to apply to become a member of the league every season?

If so when mawhinny said we had a right to appeal we were members of the league but since that statement we have ceased to become members (end of the season) and it looks like to me that when we re-applied they thought they would try and fook us over with this 'no right to appeal' clause just to make sure that we don't challenge their stupidity.

[rallyboy]

is this additional hassle all because someone delayed admin by a week?

[Whitey Grandad]

is this additional hassle all because someone delayed admin by a week?

I think so, but if we had finished above third from bottom and then been relegated by the 10 points I expect the hassle would have been a lot greater.

[Guided Missile]

is this additional hassle all because someone delayed admin by a week?

I was waiting for someone to blame Lowe.....:badgrin:

[70's Mike]

I was waiting for someone to blame Lowe.....:badgrin:

 

the thought had crossed my mind

[EastleighSoulBoy]

Steve understand completely what you are saying but aren't the days of "cosy don't rock the boat or you can't join our League" over? Or am I totally niaive?

 

Not naive Duncan, more like Utopian in your outlook?

 

This is rock and hard place territory and I couldn't play hardball with what is our pride and joy, Struggling Southampton, so I'd take the points deduction and live to fight another day. Maybe build a case and then, from within, throw a few fecks at the FL?

 

However, I'm not a money man and haven't a clue as to how Pinnacle have structured their bid or how Begbies have arranged it either!

 

And I thought that the sad, crappy days were coming to an end.

[Amesbury Saint]

Perhaps Tony could give us another update before bedtime.

[supersaint316]

Fantastic, Someone taking the time out who is in the know makes such a differance! Still have faith in PLe Tiss and the rest taking over, maybe we should have guessed today would not have been so easy after the last 5 years we have just been though however heads up, we're going in the right direction and looks like we ae not backing down from the Football League! about time someone did and if we win watch the flood gates open!

[petts]

Could it be the deal made with administrators was contingient on us being able to successfully appeal the 10 points, and that the administrators were so sure of this that pinnacle accepted the price on that basis? This could mean either the FL give in or a few quid gets knocked off the price. Pure speculation.

 

Part of me thinks that the FL have underestimated the smarts of both the admins and the legal people that would have been employed by pinnacle, though it could just be admins and pinnacle trying their luck. I think both pinnacle and admins would have expected this reaction from the FL; knowing it would be challenged. So the fact that they put in all the paperwork at the 11th hour and current high media coverage (partly due to keegan rumor) does whiff of some sort of plan by the two groups to maximise the pressure on the FL. Again, all pure speculation.

[tpbury]

If we get the 10 points back, up rock Luton et al wanting compy. That's what's making the FL hardline, fear rather than pricinciple. I'd be happier if we took the ten points and the FL get their act together.

[saint_stevo]

Tony,

 

Thanks for your efforts, it must be massively frustrating to be in your shoes this evening.

 

Keep up the good work.

 

S_S

[Matthew Le God]

If we get the 10 points back, up rock Luton et al wanting compy. That's what's making the FL hardline, fear rather than pricinciple. I'd be happier if we took the ten points and the FL get their act together.

 

Our case is very different to Luton's so that really doesn't come into it.