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Clifford Nelson

Clifford Nelson

Posted
Posted
We have just raised £2m by the sale of players so why is it necessary to liquidate? As far as I know the administrator can continue to run us as a football club until a buyer is found - is that not what happened at Bournemouth or have I got that wrong?

 

Let's get it right. Mark Fry is running SLH, not, I repeat not, SFC. SLH is in Adminsitration, hence being rung by an administrator, i.e. Mark Fry. SFC is run by Dave Jones and Ken Tointon, because SFC is not, i repeat not in Administration. This is why there is an argument about the 10 points to start with.

 

I agree with FL that SLH and SFC are "intrinsically linked", but legally they are not the same thing. You will need a CVA to get the running of SLH under way, but you don't need it, in fact you couldn't even get it, for SFC.

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Fowllyd

Fowllyd

Posted
Posted
Something's been bothering me for some time.

 

What happened to Nicks A thru to F ??? Eh?

 

please, we don't mention them.

 

"Jeremy Sphincter sailed for Australia after the poultry scare. We won't mention him again."

 

Vivian Stanshall, Rawlinson End

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Saint J 77

Saint J 77

Posted
Posted
I've been told (by a creditor) that if no deal is done by Friday it's going to be wound up.

 

A bit weird that SFC might not exist in a couple of days time!

 

I can't see a deal going through in the next 48 Hours. It seems unreal to say it but It really does look like we will no longer exist come Friday :(

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SFC Forever

SFC Forever

Posted
Posted
"Inextricably" seems to have become "intrinsically" on this forum.

 

I sometimes wonder if some of my fellow posters speak English at all.

 

Maybe they're Swiss.

 

 

 

Or maybe they are so closely intertwined that it is nigh on impossible to separate them.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
I've been told (by a creditor) that if no deal is done by Friday it's going to be wound up.

 

A bit weird that SFC might not exist in a couple of days time!

 

How can anyone wind up a Limited company that is trading solvently?

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted

One of our biggest mistakes is that we never sold any season tickets

 

Indeed....and there's never been a satisfactory statement from Jones or Tointon as to WHY the club has not sold season tickets.

 

People go on about not being able to sell a commodity that you might not be able to fullfil. Didn't stop Woolworths selling me a f***ing dud barbeque a day before they went tits up, did it? No it flippin' well didn't

 

With a little imagination (e.g. including a consumer rights waiver in the season ticket terms and conditions or selling a 'voucher' to be redeemed later) season tickets could have been sold (IMHO).

 

Where is the actual wording of the law that prevented us selling season tickets? The actual wording....?

 

Rant over. Thanks

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Tamesaint

Tamesaint

Posted
Posted
Does anybody have any idea why they were never sold?

 

... and we still haven't sold any of them !!

 

Last weekend I was talking to a Birmingham City fan. He couldn't believe that we were in financial trouble and hadn't sold any season tickets for next season. As. he said, most clubs in the country would currently be in financial trouble if they hadn't sold any season tickets by the beginning of July.

 

Start to sell season tickets, start to sell tickets for the Ajax game, start to sell tickets for the other pre season friendlies , start to sell tickets for the first matches of the season and guess what .... we would have enough money to pay next month's wages ... and the next month ... and the next month ....

 

.

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CanadaSaint

CanadaSaint

Posted
Posted
Indeed....and there's never been a satisfactory statement from Jones or Tointon as to WHY the club has not sold season tickets.

 

People go on about not being able to sell a commodity that you might not be able to fullfil. Didn't stop Woolworths selling me a f***ing dud barbeque a day before they went tits up, did it? No it flippin' well didn't

 

With a little imagination (e.g. including a consumer rights waiver in the season ticket terms and conditions or selling a 'voucher' to be redeemed later) season tickets could have been sold (IMHO).

 

Where is the actual wording of the law that prevented us selling season tickets? The actual wording....?

 

Rant over. Thanks

 

You're really p*ssed off about that barbeque, aren't you? ;)

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
How is SFC trading solvently? It is only paying wages by selling assets and the assets have nearly run out......

 

How is SFC trading solvently?

 

Erm....by selling assets to pay wages per chance....?

 

I accept that when said assets run out that SFC Ltd will no longer be solvent but I was highlighting our present situation rather than the potential future situation.

 

Sure, if our assets run out on Friday then I can understand a statement about SFC Ltd being wound up on Friday, but my understanding is that we still have a few assets left....

 

Alternatively, it could just be me being (nice but) dim. I would never rule that one out TBH as I've been pretty dim once or twice before now when it comes to this takeover malarkey.

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Pip

Pip

Posted
Posted
I've been told (by a creditor) that if no deal is done by Friday it's going to be wound up.

 

A bit weird that SFC might not exist in a couple of days time!

 

That's ok then. We know nothing promised ever happens on a Friday.

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SFC Forever

SFC Forever

Posted
Posted

With drew sold today we should surely have more than enough to pay next months wages. ST sales would give us more time and allow us to pay other essential items such as police and matchday bills. Like Trousers I can see no reason for creditors foreclosing. Just as I could see no reason for Barclays doing it 2 months or so ago.

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aberdare

aberdare

Posted
Posted
How is SFC trading solvently?

 

Erm....by selling assets to pay wages per chance....?

 

I accept that when said assets run out that SFC Ltd will no longer be solvent but I was highlighting our present situation rather than the potential future situation.

 

Sure, if our assets run out on Friday then I can understand a statement about SFC Ltd being wound up on Friday, but my understanding is that we still have a few assets left....

 

Alternatively, it could just be me being (nice but) dim. I would never rule that one out TBH as I've been pretty dim once or twice before now when it comes to this takeover malarkey.

 

Fair play and not looking for an argument, but it isn't just about wages is it? Presumably SFC should be paying something for use of the training ground and the offices at SMS, and while we may still have a few silver gilt teaspoons left to sell, presumably our liabilities rack up every day. I have no idea what the terms of payment are on the two player sales, but I would hazard a guess that Wolves and Forest didn't send down a few million in cash bags on the spot, so there is liquidity as well as solvency to consider.

 

If SLH goes into liquidation on Friday, which does seem possible, where will the players train next week?

 

Boltcutters r us?........:confused:

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
With drew sold today we should surely have more than enough to pay next months wages. ST sales would give us more time and allow us to pay other essential items such as police and matchday bills. Like Trousers I can see no reason for creditors foreclosing. Just as I could see no reason for Barclays doing it 2 months or so ago.

 

Unless of course you look for conspiracy theories...........

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Noodles34

Noodles34

Posted
Posted

you cannot sell something that you can't guarantee to fulfil. A Season Ticket is a payment in advance for services owed, SFC cannot guarantee futures services (at the moment).

You walk away with a BBQ (even if it is crap) and theoretically you could contact the manufacturer or another supplier of the same product. If you have purchased it with a CC there is also some possible recuperation available.

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Evo

Evo

Posted
Posted
Indeed....and there's never been a satisfactory statement from Jones or Tointon as to WHY the club has not sold season tickets.

 

Where is the actual wording of the law that prevented us selling season tickets? The actual wording....?

 

Rant over. Thanks

 

OK, here goes. In my opinion there are several factors at play. The administrator will not wish to restrict his potential buyers by effectively fixing their pricing structure and hence their business plan for them. He will take the view that it's not for him to get involved with this and if he c*cks the pricing up he could end up in big doo doo. Jones and Tointon are accountants and will surely be there just to attend to day to day administrative matters - nothing more.

 

The other things I think are sticking points are that Fry will not be wanting to risk making a forward-looking viability statement, and he may not be able to provide adequate ring fencing to the season ticket money. We, as consumers, can't legally sign our consumer rights away. So, if a season ticket black hole is created and the company is wound up, BT could theoretically become liable to refund the missing ST money to ST holders. Not a game they will be entertaining I'd have thought.

 

As for black and white laws, I have none, so this probably hasn't answered your question. By the way WTF were you doing buying a BBQ at Woolworth's :eek:?

 

Some links of interest:

 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/4415333.CHERRIES__FANS__DISMAY_AT_SEASON_TICKET_DELAY/

 

Asked whether he had a message for the fans, Baker said: “It’s quite simple really. As the club is up for sale, it should be the decision of any new purchaser to decide the pricing structure. It’s not for me to make that decision for them

 

http://www.atradius.co.uk/creditmanagementknowledge/iod-extras/dealing-with-insolvent-customers.html

 

(Non-related info about administration and liquidation in general)

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
We, as consumers, can't legally sign our consumer rights away.

 

So my human rights to (potentially) throw my cash down the toilet are being infringed...isn't there an EU law that overrides such self-defeating laws?

 

As for black and white laws, I have none, so this probably hasn't answered your question. By the way WTF were you doing buying a BBQ at Woolworth's :eek:?

 

Fair point.

 

You've got to admit though that Woolworths were bloody great for Batman outfits and Val Doonican albums.

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trousers

trousers

Posted
Posted
you cannot sell something that you can't guarantee to fulfil. A Season Ticket is a payment in advance for services owed, SFC cannot guarantee futures services (at the moment).

 

I concur....I just can't believe there is a law that prohibits a consumer from saying "ok, I know the risk and accept that I may lose this cash, but I want to buy one anyway".

 

Surely consumer law is there to protect the consumer in a situation where they had no warning that a company was about to go tits up. If everything is transparent then surely the consumer has every right to waive his protection rights if he or she so chooses.

 

This ***** labour government has created a nanny state beyond belief.

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dubai_phil

dubai_phil

Posted
Posted
OK, here goes. In my opinion there are several factors at play. The administrator will not wish to restrict his potential buyers by effectively fixing their pricing structure and hence their business plan for them. He will take the view that it's not for him to get involved with this and if he c*cks the pricing up he could end up in big doo doo. Jones and Tointon are accountants and will surely be there just to attend to day to day administrative matters - nothing more.

 

The other things I think are sticking points are that Fry will not be wanting to risk making a forward-looking viability statement, and he may not be able to provide adequate ring fencing to the season ticket money. We, as consumers, can't legally sign our consumer rights away. So, if a season ticket black hole is created and the company is wound up, BT could theoretically become liable to refund the missing ST money to ST holders. Not a game they will be entertaining I'd have thought.

 

As for black and white laws, I have none, so this probably hasn't answered your question. By the way WTF were you doing buying a BBQ at Woolworth's :eek:?

 

Some links of interest:

 

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/sport/4415333.CHERRIES__FANS__DISMAY_AT_SEASON_TICKET_DELAY/

 

 

 

http://www.atradius.co.uk/creditmanagementknowledge/iod-extras/dealing-with-insolvent-customers.html

 

(Non-related info about administration and liquidation in general)

 

Personally I would disagree with you. IMHO, Fry himself set up the format of our admin and as such set the price levels that HE could accept in order to meet Creditor expectations. Personally I think that structur set the buy price too high for any sane businessman to invest in, so unless there is an ego issue or a marketing angle, ANY buyer would find us a bad deal.

 

Now IF Fry hadn't tried to be clever with the 10 points and had put SFC Ltd into admin on day one I think the cost of the club would have been lower and we would have been bought by now.

 

Whether that is Fry's fault or the SLH structure is open for debate I just think we are too expensive - AT the moment

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Evo

Evo

Posted
Posted

It's a tough call Phil. I would agree that on the face of it, the recent values mentioned are far too high.

 

If Fry had put SFC in administration too (SFC frankly fits about any definition of insolvent you throw at it), would Fry have become open to accusations of deliberately devaluing the sale package? With hindsight it would have been simpler for all of us - you're right we would have been more likley to have completed by now. It really depends on what is legal guys told him I suppose.

 

I realise from reading your posts that you have heard things (from the City?) that make you unhappy with Fry's performance but, personally, without those murmours I don't have any reason to lay into Fry at this stage.

 

Anyway, I still don't see how Fry can/will decide the ST prices.

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aberdare

aberdare

Posted
Posted
surely the price will now have come down somewhat. We have sold 2 players and lost Kelvin and now know that any buyer will have to curtsey to the FL.

 

The primary driver of price in this instance is real estate not players, and the value acceptable to Aviva for SMS and the value of the training ground have not altered.

 

I think most people have accepted an estimate of something in the region of 10-12m as being about right (excluding on going capital). That values the playing staff at two fifths of sweet foxtrot alpha....... because SMS isn't going to change hands for much under 8-10m and the training ground would probably raise a couple of million for housing.

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aberdare

aberdare

Posted
Posted
It's a tough call Phil. I would agree that on the face of it, the recent values mentioned are far too high.

 

If Fry had put SFC in administration too (SFC frankly fits about any definition of insolvent you throw at it), would Fry have become open to accusations of deliberately devaluing the sale package? With hindsight it would have been simpler for all of us - you're right we would have been more likley to have completed by now. It really depends on what is legal guys told him I suppose.

 

I realise from reading your posts that you have heard things (from the City?) that make you unhappy with Fry's performance but, personally, without those murmours I don't have any reason to lay into Fry at this stage.

 

Anyway, I still don't see how Fry can/will decide the ST prices.

 

It would be unusual in dealing with a holding company to bother going through the additional expense of putting subsidiaries into administration, there is nothing to gain by so doing, just expense and greater formality.

 

One instance I was involved with had a holding company and over 70 subsids, the subsids were just left to eventually fall off the Companies House shelves, as they were unable to trade without the holding company, but did not merit the expense of calling meetings, producing separate accounts and resolutions etc.

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aberdare

aberdare

Posted
Posted
complete tosh

 

Would you care to explain why or is it just an unpalatable truth?

 

What is the minimum you think Aviva could/would settle at for the 20+m mortgage?

 

What is the minimum price a purchaser would have to pay to secure the training ground in an auction against housebuilders.

 

Add the two together, deduct from the price you think needs to be paid.

 

What amount does that leave for players and other assets both tangible and intangible - the answer I come up with is very small perhaps even nil.

 

I'm open to persuasion.

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Gemmel

Gemmel

Posted
Posted
No it isn't.

 

No buyer gives a **** if Kelvin Davies and Drew Surman are still at the club or not.

 

 

No i'm sure they don't > paying 14 million for everything and 10% + of the assets have just walked out the door :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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buctootim

buctootim

Posted
Posted
No i'm sure they don't > paying 14 million for everything and 10% + of the assets have just walked out the door :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

As long as they were sold for a good price and the fee has also walked in the door then tbh they probably wont care that much.

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Fowllyd

Fowllyd

Posted
Posted
Trousers, is your avatar a picture of a guy plugging another guy...or is it something else?! Had to ask! LOL

 

Something else

 

It's Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark, aka OMD, isn't it? Or is my knowledge of 80's electro-pop stars deserting me? If it is OMD, it's a splendidly fitting avatar right now.

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Gemmel

Gemmel

Posted
Posted (edited)
Would you care to explain why or is it just an unpalatable truth?

 

What is the minimum you think Aviva could/would settle at for the 20+m mortgage?

 

What is the minimum price a purchaser would have to pay to secure the training ground in an auction against housebuilders.

 

Add the two together, deduct from the price you think needs to be paid.

 

What amount does that leave for players and other assets both tangible and intangible - the answer I come up with is very small perhaps even nil.

 

I'm open to persuasion.

 

It is irrelvant what figure they would settle for (Outside of getting a CVA)

The fact of the matter is that lock stock barrell was valued at 14 million by the administrator and seemed to acceptable to the creditors. 2.5 million plus a goalie, that would cost another 2 million to replace has walked out of the door. That means the value has gone down.

 

If you were buying a car fully loaded with all the extras , you wouldnt pay the same for a reduced spec.

 

The value has gone down (As a minimum) by the value of the players fees

Edited by Gemmel
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