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JustMike

JustMike

Posted
Posted
Big, big week ahead!

 

I have got the colly wobbles as I am almost convinced now that nothing will happen today and tomorrow we will get the 'why it went wrong speech'. It is almost like it is being set up to fail. Public announcements of the efforts being made so when it does go tits up, they can't say they didn't try.

 

nothing adds up anymore and unless the Swiss or dare I say it the MJ bid bail us out, we could all be devestated next weekend!

 

Sorry for the negativity, just a really bad feeling in the pit of stomach this morning!

 

If I am proved wrong fantastic, I trust Matt to do the right thing, just not sure about the unknown element. It has been touched on, but we don't need a new Wilde regime!

 

Have a good day everyone lol!

 

and there was me feeling all optimistic...thanks for bringing be back down to earth ;)

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doggface

doggface

Posted
Posted
I agree nothing will happen today - Matts statement clearly said a meeting with the FL today with a view to completing on Tuesday - noone else can surely trump them today

 

I heard they were looking to tie things up today, however in MLT statement he said tuesday latest, there is a chance they will wrap it up today - but this is saints............ so yeah Tuesday is more likely!

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sussexsaint

sussexsaint

Posted
Posted

The thing is 2 weeks ago when it all broke about 100's of Millions and Matty fronting it up , then the next day all the KK stuff. I was elated - I felt for the first time in ages tat we genuinely had our club back and we were going places and would have a long and secure future ahead of us.

 

Now, after all that happened last week, even if Pinnacle do clinch the deal I will now have that nagging little doubt in my mind - it may be unfounded and I hope it is but the gloss has gone

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eelpie

eelpie

Posted
Posted
oh the rise and fall off southampton football club, what else would we have to do with oueselves when this fiasco is over.

 

If you mean the fall and rise we'll be busy criticising the new manager for not getting us automatic promotion.

 

If you mean the rise and fall, we'll all have jumped off Southampton Pier.

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Under Weststand

Under Weststand

Posted
Posted
The thing is 2 weeks ago when it all broke about 100's of Millions and Matty fronting it up , then the next day all the KK stuff. I was elated - I felt for the first time in ages tat we genuinely had our club back and we were going places and would have a long and secure future ahead of us.

 

Now, after all that happened last week, even if Pinnacle do clinch the deal I will now have that nagging little doubt in my mind - it may be unfounded and I hope it is but the gloss has gone

 

That Sussesxsaint is because its going to be a Matt-Finish :D.

 

Sorry Coat & hat.

 

But seriously I have to agree with you there I'm just hanging on like everyone else not in the know hoping & praying we will have new owners by Tuesday, & if it is Pinnacle then they have serious money behind them.

Going to be another agonising week me thinks & I'm still not convinced its going to be a happy ending , being the pessimistic type.

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krissyboy31

krissyboy31

Posted
Posted
What i don't get is why will it take til tomorrow! If the points are agreed and Pinnacle sign, what would be the delay after that! Don't understand!

 

They didn't say that, They said that they were hoping to tie everything up today, Tuesday at the latest.

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
What i don't get is why will it take til tomorrow! If the points are agreed and Pinnacle sign, what would be the delay after that! Don't understand!

 

Becasue Matt's statement had a weasel phrase, something along the lines of 'there are still a few ambibguities to be clarifed in the contract'

 

Pinnacle seem to have been convinced that they could and would appeal the -10 on the technicality of the SFC/SLH split. (Even though most of us knew full well that the FL would not back down.) I'm worried that even now pinnacle are hoping for a phrasing of the contract that leaves them a legal loophole to go to court later and challenge the waiver clause. If so the FL's lawyers will be checking to make sure there isn't such a loophole and we could still end up with an impasse.

 

K.

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted

Now, after all that happened last week, even if Pinnacle do clinch the deal I will now have that nagging little doubt in my mind - it may be unfounded and I hope it is but the gloss has gone

 

 

Indeed. And all because they decided to ponce and posture over the ten point rule and some nebulous "human right to appeal" (Jesus wept), which did nothing except waste a week to ten days of time they could have spent owning the club and driving it forward.

 

It was plain to anyone with a brain that Pinnacle would never get to appeal, would never get the points back and would never ever win, and what the league were doing was not illegal in the slightest.

 

Funny I did say that several times on this forum over the last week or so and got dog's abuse.

 

 

 

So Pinnacle from being the do-no-wrong golden boys now have some serious ground to make up to regain faith.

 

And all because they decided to listen to their greedy lawyers with eyes on a prize and with zero understanding of how sport actually works.

 

That said, with MLT in tow, I think they can regain the faith, but they probably need to start acting on appointing a coach and sorting players futures PDQ.

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Wildgoose

Wildgoose

Posted
Posted
Indeed. And all because they decided to ponce and posture over the ten point rule and some nebulous "human right to appeal" (Jesus wept), which did nothing except waste a week to ten days of time they could have spent owning the club and driving it forward.

 

It was plain to anyone with a brain that Pinnacle would never get to appeal, would never get the points back and would never ever win, and what the league were doing was not illegal in the slightest.

 

Funny I did say that several times on this forum over the last week or so and got dog's abuse.

 

 

 

So Pinnacle from being the do-no-wrong golden boys now have some serious ground to make up to regain faith.

 

And all because they decided to listen to their greedy lawyers with eyes on a prize and with zero understanding of how sport actually works.

 

That said, with MLT in tow, I think they can regain the faith, but they probably need to start acting on appointing a coach and sorting players futures PDQ.

 

Very fair summary I think!

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted
Becasue Matt's statement had a weasel phrase, something along the lines of 'there are still a few ambibguities to be clarifed in the contract'

 

Pinnacle seem to have been convinced that they could and would appeal the -10 on the technicality of the SFC/SLH split. (Even though most of us knew full well that the FL would not back down.) I'm worried that even now pinnacle are hoping for a phrasing of the contract that leaves them a legal loophole to go to court later and challenge the waiver clause. If so the FL's lawyers will be checking to make sure there isn't such a loophole and we could still end up with an impasse.

 

K.

a very little i have found out is that it is not just the -10, but there is a document attached they need to sign and that basically has a list of things the FL require they do.Like in the Leeds case the FL basically have quite a bit of control for a couple of years and the requirements to be adhered too are something costly. This is a ramble but I only can remeber a little of what was said but I got the impression that the funding for Pinnalce may not be able to cover this.
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krissyboy31

krissyboy31

Posted
Posted
Indeed. And all because they decided to ponce and posture over the ten point rule and some nebulous "human right to appeal" (Jesus wept), which did nothing except waste a week to ten days of time they could have spent owning the club and driving it forward.

 

It was plain to anyone with a brain that Pinnacle would never get to appeal, would never get the points back and would never ever win, and what the league were doing was not illegal in the slightest.

 

Funny I did say that several times on this forum over the last week or so and got dog's abuse.

 

 

 

So Pinnacle from being the do-no-wrong golden boys now have some serious ground to make up to regain faith.

 

And all because they decided to listen to their greedy lawyers with eyes on a prize and with zero understanding of how sport actually works.

 

That said, with MLT in tow, I think they can regain the faith, but they probably need to start acting on appointing a coach and sorting players futures PDQ.

 

I still think there is/was something else, other than the 10 points holding up the deal. It may be that by playing hardball, the FL have now relaxed some other part of the contract (like the CVA rule, for example), therefore by accepting the 10 point penalty, the license will be issued without further sanction?

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
a very little i have found out is that it is not just the -10, but there is a document attached they need to sign and that basically has a list of things the FL require they do.Like in the Leeds case the FL basically have quite a bit of control for a couple of years and the requirements to be adhered too are something costly. This is a ramble but I only can remeber a little of what was said but I got the impression that the funding for Pinnalce may not be able to cover this.

 

Perhaps they're not allowed to build up fresh debts for a couple of years?

 

I recall that Fry implied at one stage that the pinnacle bid gave the creditors less intially than some others, but had bigger eventual payments if we were promoted, right up to additional payments if we make it back to the premiership.

 

That implies that there isn't a huge amount of cash sloshing around up front. Maybe the business plan invovles heavy borrowing to invest after the takeover and the FL won't allow that? Comlete speculation on my part I hasten to add. Am not (and I suspect never will be) ITK.

 

K.

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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted
What sort of conditions nick?
Hypo I wasnt told specifically, but it seems part of the agreement ties yuo close to the FL and you have to follow certain conditions they impose. The words were like Leeds have had to do. I know no more
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OldNick

OldNick

Posted
Posted
Perhaps they're not allowed to build up fresh debts for a couple of years?

 

I recall that Fry implied at one stage that the pinnacle bid gave the creditors less intially than some others, but had bigger eventual payments if we were promoted, right up to additional payments if we make it back to the premiership.

 

That implies that there isn't a huge amount of cash sloshing around up front. Maybe the business plan invovles heavy borrowing to invest after the takeover and the FL won't allow that? Comlete speculation on my part I hasten to add. Am not (and I suspect never will be) ITK.

 

K.

that may addup, if Pinnacle are using leverage to fund the buy out then the FL may well be saying no. Again speculation but would make sense.
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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
a very little i have found out is that it is not just the -10, but there is a document attached they need to sign and that basically has a list of things the FL require they do.Like in the Leeds case the FL basically have quite a bit of control for a couple of years and the requirements to be adhered too are something costly. This is a ramble but I only can remeber a little of what was said but I got the impression that the funding for Pinnalce may not be able to cover this.

 

Even to the extent (if one poster is to be believed), that the FL were only prepared to issue a 2 year licence......no good for a five year plan!!!

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ottery st mary

ottery st mary

Posted
Posted
Hypo I wasnt told specifically, but it seems part of the agreement ties yuo close to the FL and you have to follow certain conditions they impose. The words were like Leeds have had to do. I know no more

 

The requirement list includes cleaning the toilets at St Marys to a very high level..well at least as clean as the toilets at Football League HQ....

To help prospective purchasers.:rolleyes:.Mr Fry has had the staff at St Marys in the toilets instructing them on the finer points..He really earns his money.That administrator.:smt060..Maybe now that concludes the last of the requirements on the FL list...Let us get on and sign up Pinnacle.:axe:

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saint_stevo

saint_stevo

Posted
Posted
a very little i have found out is that it is not just the -10, but there is a document attached they need to sign and that basically has a list of things the FL require they do.Like in the Leeds case the FL basically have quite a bit of control for a couple of years and the requirements to be adhered too are something costly. This is a ramble but I only can remeber a little of what was said but I got the impression that the funding for Pinnalce may not be able to cover this.

 

So Pinnacle don't have a pot to p1ss in?

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Beer Engine

Beer Engine

Posted
Posted
that may addup, if Pinnacle are using leverage to fund the buy out then the FL may well be saying no. Again speculation but would make sense.

 

Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

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Channon's Sideburns

Channon's Sideburns

Posted
Posted (edited)
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

If it is a leveraged buyout...I wonder who will arrange the finance?

 

Kind of confused though how Pinnacle Asset Management would fit in..conflict of interest though if they were to be involved in that way. Then again, no different to S.I.S I suppose...

Edited by Channon's Sideburns
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aberdare

aberdare

Posted
Posted
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=343889#post343889

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CB Fry

CB Fry

Posted
Posted
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

 

If it turns out to be a Glazers/Liverpool style leverage deal then I think that will be a massive disappointment to a lot of fans.

 

I think that would have been the kind of "real world" deal we would expect a prospective purchaser to carry out for us a few weeks back, but after a fair few big noises from Pinnacle I think it will be something of a damp squib now.

 

It wouldn't be terrible (not least because the renogiated mortage or lump sum to close the debt completely will make things a lot easier) but it doesn't demonstrate genuine incremental investment, and certainly won't justify the hype attached to it.

 

 

PS - and yes, Liverpool and Man U do seem to be doing okay out of it broadly, but it is fairyland in the Prem.

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wild-saint

wild-saint

Posted
Posted
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

I doubt it somehow. who in thier right mind (in a credit crunch) is going to loan a whole bunch of money against a range of assests that are essntially worthless (stadium with no club) against a business that has already failed once. Borrowed money is not going to be available for football as its too high a risk.

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Beer Engine

Beer Engine

Posted
Posted
I doubt it somehow. who in thier right mind (in a credit crunch) is going to loan a whole bunch of money against a range of assests that are essntially worthless (stadium with no club) against a business that has already failed once. Borrowed money is not going to be available for football as its too high a risk.

 

Very true - hope you're right ...

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Evo

Evo

Posted
Posted

Commercial finance is always available, it just depends on terms of the deal. I can't see this being a gentle Barclays + 2% deal, it would be venture fund high risk/high return type stuff I'd imagine :(

 

I think the fact that the combined net book value of SFC Ltd and SMS Ltd was a whopping minus £1.1m according the last filed accounts was the only reason a leveraged debt deal didn't happen pre-admin.

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saint1977

saint1977

Posted
Posted
If it turns out to be a Glazers/Liverpool style leverage deal then I think that will be a massive disappointment to a lot of fans.

 

I think that would have been the kind of "real world" deal we would expect a prospective purchaser to carry out for us a few weeks back, but after a fair few big noises from Pinnacle I think it will be something of a damp squib now.

 

It wouldn't be terrible (not least because the renogiated mortage or lump sum to close the debt completely will make things a lot easier) but it doesn't demonstrate genuine incremental investment, and certainly won't justify the hype attached to it.

 

 

PS - and yes, Liverpool and Man U do seem to be doing okay out of it broadly, but it is fairyland in the Prem.

 

CL football every season and getting at least to the QFs and SFs is what keeps those two clubs out of trouble. One poor season and they would be right in it up their necks although Man U are such a global brand they'd probably get another buyer. Liverpool are a huge club but not quite as global as Man U and the politics are lot more complex. Look at how Newcastle have struggled once CL football stopped. Arsenal were very fearful of being pipped by Villa as the debt on the Emirates is immense.

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Clifford Nelson

Clifford Nelson

Posted
Posted
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

Beer Engine, It's hard to see who would provide the capital in the current market, like others have pointed out. A leveraged buy-out is based on future profits, which need to be substantial. When you think Man U or Liverpool, you might possibly be blinded to believe in future profits, but Saints?!

 

The Fialka fiasco needs to be explained whatever happens, since he is supposedly the prospective owner. The facts are pointing to him not having any money, but we are supposed to believe the opposite because Fry, TL and himself says so? Please give us some proper explanations, because if he was sent out as a front for others, hadn't they done their homework? That is worrying.

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Joesaint

Joesaint

Posted
Posted

People on here are worrying me again now. Really thought it would be a no debt situation again like when we were at the dell. I have to say I love MLT but I really just want whats best for the club and I don't know what that is now.

 

If there were several million pound of wealth within pinnical surly the investor/s will not want to pay any interest and pay the money straight out.

 

Hope that makes sence.

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Gingeletiss

Gingeletiss

Posted
Posted
People on here are worrying me again now. Really thought it would be a no debt situation again like when we were at the dell. I have to say I love MLT but I really just want whats best for the club and I don't know what that is now.

 

If there were several million pound of wealth within pinnical surly the investor/s will not want to pay any interest and pay the money straight out.

 

Hope that makes sence.

 

Why worry about someone's opinion.......wait until it's fact before you age yourself. It has been proven time and again on here....that rumour and opinion, are often wrong.

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Ken Tone

Ken Tone

Posted
Posted
Hi Nick

 

I don't know about you but I am sensing a leveraged buy-out here - that is a situation where Pinnacle use the assets that they are acquiring as security for a loan to buy those assets.

 

IMHO a leveraged buy-out will at best deliver a football club that can stand still - that is, its current receipts (gate money, merchandise, a little bit bit of TV cash, stadium events) cover its current expenses which will presumably increase by the amount of interest needed to fund the loan needed to buy the club in the first place. Once the loan has been serviced there isn't much left to spunk going forward.

 

Man Utd is an obvious example - I can't remember what the annual interest is on their reputed £850 million of debt - but I seem to remember that is consumed something pretty close to their annual operating profit last year.

 

I have no facts - but this is what worries me about the fact that Pinnacle didn't feel big enough to swallow the 10 points straight off and then start pumping cash in.

 

Since it was my speculation that appears to have started the leveraged buyout speculation, perhaps I should say that MY speculation was not that pinnacle had to borrow lots to buy us, more that maybe their business plan involved borrowing to invest *after* they'd taken over, and that the FL was restricting this so as to ensure a club that had overspent its means once didn't do so again. Think how it would look for the credibilty of the league, and of all other clubs seeking finance/credit in the future, if we went into administration again within say 2 years.

 

K.

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Beer Engine

Beer Engine

Posted
Posted (edited)
Why worry about someone's opinion.......wait until it's fact before you age yourself. It has been proven time and again on here....that rumour and opinion, are often wrong.

 

Well rumour and opinion are often wrong, but not always.

 

Although everyone here is feeling their way in the dark, between us we managed to figure out what the problem with the FL was (as subsequently confirmed by MLT) and also figure out that preserving a right of appeal would be at best a Phyrric victory (as finally accepted by Pinnacle according to MLT) as well as being a big financial headache for Saints staff in the meantime.

 

After last week's fiasco, I am sure that even you must have SOME misgivings about Pinnacle's ability to finance the deal and run the club effectively - even if those misgivings subsequently turn out to be unfounded?

Edited by Beer Engine
total incompetence
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Andyb1

Andyb1

Posted
Posted
People on here are worrying me again now. Really thought it would be a no debt situation again like when we were at the dell. I have to say I love MLT but I really just want whats best for the club and I don't know what that is now.

 

If there were several million pound of wealth within pinnical surly the investor/s will not want to pay any interest and pay the money straight out.

 

Hope that makes sence.

 

People on here are making things up becuase they have no idea what is happening. They also dont have the patience to jsut sit back and wait. Much more interesting to make something up and discuss than sit and wait after all.

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