Diabolus Ex Machina

Romeu would be the obvious choice, JWP in with a shout if he becomes a regular starter - almost guaranteed to be a future captain. Yoshida a possible candidate too. My dark horse pick would be Tadic - has a few seasons under his belt now and the extra responsibility may bring out the best of him on the pitch. Certainly seems vocal enough anyway with his team mates

2 seasons ago that £10-15m bought us a Van Dijk. I know prices are getting silly but I believe good players can still be found for that amount (or at least not a huge amount more). At the least it would help pay the wages of any 'quality' players we bought in. Besides, you just know after 1 season with a Pool/City/Chelsea that the Media will be proclaiming him to be worth £90m or £100m+ just for pulling on their shirt. We have to maximise the value if we sell because someone will pay it if they really want him bad enough and they know they can get a higher fee later.

While there's some truth that the market defines a players value you have missed the point that we do not actually want to sell. This is not a bargaining situation. We want to keep the player but there is a price we will sell at if it is met. No-one is willing to match this price hence we won't sell. Why is that so hard to understand? I repeat we neither want to or need to sell van Dijk and so any deal should be on our terms including the price of the player in question. The tapping up, the media speculation and the sulking/striking whichever it may be are all designed to get us to want to get rid of the player and to therefore reduce our asking price. If we really do want to keep the player we just need to stand firm. You seem to have decided that we want to get rid of Van Dijk at any cost which is the opposite we have heard rumoured.

Care to explain why you think we will back down on our asking price? Unlike previous examples we hold a lot more bargaining power as he is under a long contract. Do you think keeping him here will reduce his value significantly over the next 6-12 months? I'd argue no amount of sulking will change how talented a player he is and so his value shouldn't be affected. Alternatively maybe you think his disruptive attitude is a problem for the club? In which case is your answer to sell any players that don't want to be here to any club that wants them at whatever price they are willing to pay? That is a terrible business model and would be a horrific precedent to set. Honestly I only see 2 real options - pay us what we want and take him off our hands or he stays here. Whether he knuckles down and plays or keeps himself isolated until the next window is up to him. Only reason I think we may drop our price a little is if he does hand in a transfer request and foregoes his loyalty bonus and even then i'd still imagine our profit margin would remain the same on the deal.

I'd imagine the main reason is because no-one is willing to pay us what we think he is worth and we are in a position where we most certainly can set the asking price and have no need to take anything less. Don't think him not training with the team today really changes anything either. If we really are determined not to sell then he's not going anywhere and will have to knuckle down once the window closes. On the other hand if we are open to selling him someone needs to meet our asking price which also doesn't seem to be happening.

Reckon we can finish top half, probably no higher than 8th though potential to go higher if other teams falter (of which at least 1 'big' team normally under performs). Performances both individually and as a team to hopefully improve. The likes of Forster, Davis, Long and Boufal should all be expected to contribute more this season than they did last and if Austin and Gabbi can stay injury free we should have enough in the way of goals. Think this could be the season JWP makes good on his potential and nails down a starting place too. Also think a lot depends on how the new manager does which at the moment is the big x-factor for me. Cup runs would be good but are dependent on us taking them seriously - both the club and the players. No reason we can't emulate last season and perhaps even go one step further... Really what i'd like to see most is us fostering a good team spirit again - that above all is what I think helped push us so high in previous seasons, whether it was us wanting to prove ourselves as Prem standard after coming back up, to proving all the naysayers wrong when they said we'd be in trouble after losing our best players and managers it was that sense of togetherness that kept pushing us on. That seems to have eroded away under Puel and we need to get that spark back. Hopefully Pellegrino can foster that type of spirit within the team.

Will be a backlash no doubt and sets a very dangerous precedent. I'll wait and see exactly what the deal is but anything less than max price would be a slap in the face.

What stance is that? I'm not sure who we're supposed to be selling him to if no-one is making a bid? Or are you expecting us to give our players away whenever another team comes asking? I'm confident that if someone met our asking price he'd be on his way. The issue is really with Liverpools completely unprofessional manner of dealing with both the player and ourselves, the unprofessionalism which seems to have rubbed off on Van Dijk with his current behaviour. He's our player and he has a price like any asset and that is a price we, as his employer and holder of his contract are allowed to set, any player signing a contract should be aware of that and i'm sure it would be no different at any other club. This is of course negotiable but Liverpool have done their best to try and not deal directly with us leading to the current predicament. Besides, who out there is a better stepping stone club in the prem? I think our record of selling players to the top 6 teams speaks for itself. Even the players that stay tend to get International recognition.

The way I see it is we hold all the cards in regards to any possible negotiations - he's on a long contract and we've already made Pool publicly apologise once for their behaviour so it would be easy to get them in trouble for tapping up again if we so wished. If we were adamant about not selling him though you'd have thought we would have come out in public and made it explicitly clear he's not going anywhere. As we haven't i'd assume we'd be willing to do a deal for the right price. If that's the case then the only reason a deal hasn't already been made is because Liverpool won't match our asking price and all of the media talk from ex-players and the rumours about strikes and transfer requests is all just dirty tricks to try and get us to lower our demands. As I said though, we have an extremely strong position and have no need to sell. If the club were to cave in and accept any less than maximum price for him then we'd be admitting that we are a soft touch and can't hold on to any players if they want to go and would be open to any player being poached/leaving whenever they wish in future. I'd give them an ultimatum personally, tell them a price and a date - match it by then and he's your's, otherwise F*ck off. This has already been going on way too long already and we can't have it hanging over the club for the rest of the window, especially if we will need to get a replacement CB in.

So Van Dijk wants to go to a team that hasn't put in a bid for him and who has publicly said they would be ending all interest in the player. Wonder how he came to that decision? Talked into it perhaps? I mean it's not like Liverpool have a history of tapping up players and have had to already apologise for this sort of behaviour already this window....oh wait... And that's why he ultimately won't go to Liverpool - not because we are being stubborn or don't 'know our place' but because Liverpool seem to think the rules don't apply to them as they are such a big club. Well tough luck, you brought it on yourselves this time and if there's any chance at all of them getting him you better believe it will be on our terms.

How do sell-on clauses factor into things? Obviously come out of the transfer fee but don't know how they appear on our books so could potentially account for some discrepancy? (Haven't looked at any of the financials myself to see).

Well they thought a deal was close before but somehow forgot to tell the club about it leading to their grovelling public apology...honestly if we do sell him to Pool it better be under our terms. Personally i'd ask for £75mil + whatever sell on fee Celtic are owed, flat fee with no stupid add-ons and a nice big sell on clause.

And following that line of thinking the fact that Liverpool publicly said they were ending their interest in the player means he must be staying then yes?

You're probably right. The rumored previous interest in Sakho and Semedo made me think we may have thought about getting someone in but I think the way Stephens stepped up last season may have made them reconsider.

I'd kinda assumed Bednarek would mainly play with the U21's this season. Have VVD and *New* as starting CB's and have Yoshida and Stephens as the 2 back-ups. Gardos to be moved on as I think the injuries have basically cost him his chance here. With the assumption that VVD would be leaving next year you can move Bednarek to full squad season after with probably Stephens and whichever new guy we get this year starting. Of course Saints may have already decided we don't need another CB and we see Yoshida/Stephens starting with VVD but as others have said I think we still need a Fonte replacement (Stephens isn't there yet but shows a lot of promise).

Regarding Everton i'd say it really depends on how their new signings settle in and how the extra European games affect them. If (when?) Lukaku goes they are going to have to find those missing goals from somewhere as well and high scorers aren't exactly easy to come by nowadays. If we get a couple more in but keep a generally consistent squad I see no reason we can't finish above them, especially if the new managers tactics are bought into by the players and are effective. I can also see a couple of the 'big' teams struggling as well meaning 7th shouldn't be the limit (namely Pool and particularly Man U depending on how their transfer activity goes).

Will be good for him to get some game time (hopefully). Wonder if this is a sign we will try and sign a new DM to play/compete with Romeu?

I'm all for strengthening the first XI and getting someone else to start alongside VVD but I maintain that Maya is a very capable deputy and backup when called upon and I think a lot of others feel the same. I think people are taking umbrage more at the fact that some people are treating him as dead weight and would rather see him out of the club completely when he's done nothing but give his all for us and has shown to be able to do a job at this level (as noted earlier has played in over half our league games the past 3 seasons where we have finished top 8 each time). I'd also play him over Stephens pretty much every time at the moment - the lad did well when thrown in the deep end last season but is nowhere near the finished article in my opinion yet. Obviously needs game time to improve though so need to find him game time somewhere but as a regular starter? Not for me. Interestingly there's only been 5 players that are still here from our first season back in the Prem - Davis, JWP, Gazzanigga, Yoshida and Stephens. I'm wondering if them both being here together for that long helped when they were both needed as first choice centre backs last year?

He's played in over 20 league matches each season for the past 3 seasons where we finished 7th, 6th and 8th. That sounds exactly like top 10 premier league standard to me. That's not to say there aren't better defenders out there or that he should be starting every game but as someone that's been called on a lot to step up when others have left or been injured I think he's done a sterling job and we could do a hell of a lot worse.

Window isn't even officially open, we have just installed a new manager and there's still plenty of time left before the start of the window. If we have to wait a bit longer to get players in at a more reasonable price than the ridiculous amounts going around at the moment I have no problem with that. If in 3 weeks time everything is still as quiet as it is now then you may have a point (though you could make it better than some dummy spitting post and thread title). Until then try having some patience and a little bit of faith in your team FFS. I'd say we've done pretty well thus far since our return to the top tier and a bit of leeway is deserved. As for Bournemouth i'll admit their signings look good on paper at least but we won't really know their impact until the season starts proper. Personally I think King will struggle to do as well as last year anyway which by itself would probably be enough to keep them below us.

There's already other threads for other premier teams and our transfers or are you that desperate for attention? This thread is adding absolutely nothing to the conversation. (Rhetorical question by the way we all know you are that desperate for attention).

Is it just me that thinks our issue with Liverpool is less that they've talked with the player but more that they've seemingly blabbed to the press about it? Putting it out there that he wants to join Pool looks like an obvious way to deter other bidders plus the stated fee of around £50mil in these articles is significantly less than what we are apparently saying he's worth (£70mil?) and looks to me like Pool trying to set the fee without negotiating. I'm sure we're open to offers for him but it doesn't look like a fee has been agreed with the club and Liverpool are trying to force it down which understandably would annoy us!

Had a great career with us and if he wants to move on so be it, I just get the feeling him and the club are now moving in different directions. The club seems to have no issue with moving on our more 'senior' players - I always thought we were happy to let the likes of Lambert and Pelle leave due to age rather than selling for profit or need - and though i'm sure they weren't looking to move Fonte on just yet the fact that the two sides couldn't agree on a new contract (potentially because it didn't match what Jose thought he was worth after his summer exploits and his position and previous tenure with the club) meant this was always a likely outcome. Personally I thank him for all he has given us and wish him the best wherever he goes next (assuming he goes of course). Important thing is to get a replacement in ASAP though our recent record of finding centre backs has been bloody excellent if you ask me. Reckon we might get to see more of Stephens in the short term as well.

If true, then despite my support in another thread I’d say Puels position may soon become untenable. I can’t recall any time a manager has turned it around after supposedly losing the dressing room. Not even Mourinho could survive it last year with Chelsea. Do wonder which senior pro’s they could be talking about though. Long for being behind both Austin and JRod in the pecking order despite his record last season? A Bertrand or Davis not liking being rotated so much? My money would be on Fonte though, being benched or left out entirely for the Europa games and still not getting a decent run of games in the league must irk him something terrible especially being that he just came off such a great summer.

For me he has to be given until at least the end of the season barring some extraordinary losing run or a complete loss of the dressing room. His current win % as manager is actually pretty close to what Pochs was with us (Puels 37.93% to Pochs 38.33%) and if you compare the % of games lost he’s actually close to Koemans figures (Puel 34%, Koeman 33%). The difference between the two being the number of games drawn rather than won though it’s obvious we are struggling to get goals with the current squad. The lack of a Mane style x-factor and unfortunate injury to our top scorer obviously don’t help with this but maybe the January transfer window will help reduce some of this problem. The low points have had an impact on his perception I think – the dreary way we left Europe, our faltering home form and the current losses to our former managers in heavy defeats to Spurs and Everton haven’t endeared him and it’s true the style of play isn’t as entertaining as previous seasons and at times does look ineffective and can be extremely frustrating for fans. On the other hand though he has led us to a Cup semi-final (which included a win over Arsenal at the Emirates) and a historical victory over Inter Milan (strength of the teams notwithstanding – especially as we have constantly rotated all season). The re-introduction of our academy players to the first team has also been a much welcomed addition by myself and others with McQueen and Sims in particular showing they are up to the task. With the EFL semi-final to come and the F.A cup not even started yet for us, to remove the manager now would be to my mind ridiculous especially as the bottom teams still look to be at least as bad as us at our worst with a decent sized cushion still there. I say give the man a chance to re-enforce in the transfer window, see how the cup runs play out and go from there. I believe it's more a case of adjustments needing to be made rather than whole-sale changes. Also, to equal or better last season we would have to do better over a whole season than at least one of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool or Spurs and while certainly not impossible I’d say it was always the less likely possibility so it was always going to be an uphill struggle for Puel in my point of view.