anothersaintinsouthsea

errr, that's life isn't it? I'm not sure how gays getting married in a church that was happy to marry gays compromises the rights and choices of those against Gay marriage. You could just as easily invert all of your arguments: why, if you are against gay marriage, would you want to belong to a church that accepted gay marriage? Is it fair that the rights and choices of gays have to be compromised because of the views of others? I think this debate has gone nowhere for the last few pages. Can we agree on the following: 1. Gays should have the right to be "married" in the same way as hetero couples in civil ceremonies (registry offices, hotels etc)? My view - Yes. 2. Should religious institutions that want to offer gay marriages be allowed to do so? My view - Yes 3. Should religious institutions be forced by law to offer gay marriages? My view - No I think if someone were to say "ALL muslims are bigots" then that in its self would be bigotted. If someone were to say "some Muslims" are bigotted then that would be fair comment wouldn't it?

fak off u skummahs, its not about numbers its about pashun. we're the mostest pashunatist supportas in the world. your just jealous of us and our amazin potenshal.

Turkish, why are you still debating with people on this thread? Can't you except (sic) their views even if they are different to yours?

yes but he wasn't even the worst, Gervinho and Chamakh were absolute turd.

********, the Arse have just equalised. really tough on bratford.

Riquelme will be coach and Maradona will be in the ticket office providing a massive step up from the days of Liam Lawrence.

This is how different clubs go for "safe standing" in Germany: http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/view/what-does-safe-standing-look-like Dortmund have metal clips on the concrete which allows them to attach small seats for CL matches - I bet their fans carry on standing though.

You're right, it's a crying shame. It has meant that German clubs have been relatively uncompetitive in Europe but great for fans and it looks like they are starting to make a lot more money out of sponsorship and TV deals now so are catching up on the English teams.

Forgot to add: a season ticket for the terrace costs €225 and includes 3 Champions League matches. Now that is value.

As TDD has alluded to Dortmund manage to have 25k people standing in one terrace for domestic home matches. You don't hear of any problems with that. I'm not sure how to post photos directly into the page but this shot of the terrace when considerably less than full suggest that most of it isn't the "safe-standing" format shown earlier in the thread. I've no idea how they convert this to seating for CL matches. I believe the top third of the terrace is the "safe standing" style with barriers every second step. http://ligalinks3.beepworld.de/files/westfalenstadion3.jpg The main reason the police would be against it is that seating makes it easier to keep track of supporters and tends to break up group of likeminded fans who would more easily be able to congregate on a terrace.

That Banker chap sounds really switched on, he'd make a valuable addition to this thread I'm sure.....

He was the closest player to the City section but a reasonable view was the he was celebrating with the other players and the Utd fans.

To be fair to Cameron (which I'm not very often) he was making a pretty narrow point that Norway is subject to EU law but has no voice in setting that law. He wasn't making a wider socio-economic criticism of Norway. It's worth pointing out that Norway's oil and gas production are both around twice that of the UK and the money earned is spread over a population of 5m rather than 60m. Norway and the UK really aren't comparable.

He was with the other Manure players, it was in front of the UtD fans but not that far from the nearest home section.

wasn't he celebrating in front of his own fans?

wow, the paranoia from the CofE is coming through strongly. I guess they fear a lot of in-fighting if some its members opted in and some didn't.

Just had a little look. In terms of legal rights it is exactly the same with the somewhat bizarre exception that peerage titles aren't extended to civil partners in the same they are for 'married' spouses. I guess that those pushing for gay marriage want to be able to call it marriage, rather than civil partnership, as they feel they're not yet quite 'equal' to heteros - i.e. it is symbolic, they want to be able to say "marriage" rather than "civil partnership". You're right that it doesn't make sense to force religious institutions to offer gay marriage. Any new law should allow gay "marriages" to be conducted by any institutions that already offer hetero marriage and want to offer gay marriage as well (I don't know, but I'm guessing some more right-on churches will be happy to offer it). I guess its because there's been a history of discrimination and persecution and they just want to feel like normal citizens like everyone else. Isn't the more pertinent question why should anyone want to treat gays differently to everyone else?

You got there in the end well done you.

All perfectly valid points.

Oops, looks like Turkish has appointed himself forum police. If we're only supposed to stick to the points in the OP then why have you been debating with me about religious education? It's not me that's struggling. My question was about marriage in a civil ceremony. Are you going to answer or deflect again?

As I've already said, if people want to give their kids a Catholic education then should pay for it themselves. IMO it shouldn't be state funded.

I called you thick because you kept raising points that bore no reflection to what I'd said which was really quite simple. No where have I suggested that my opinion is held by everyone.

What have any of your deflecting questions got to do with my statement? Read it again doofus - I said marriage in a civil ceremony. Look you took offence when I said you were thick but come on.....

This really isn't difficult. I spell it for you again. My personal belief - I'll stress it again - personal belief - is that state funded education should be secular. That's it. Nothing complicated. I'm well aware that others think differently.

I'm sure all Saints fans like me a terrifically jealous of a club with a dwindling fan base, high probability of being relegated to L2, a dilapidated ground that it won't own even if successful in court, a totally unproductive youth system, and a club that might not survive to the end of the year. Yes all Saints fans are really scared and jealous of Pompey