van Hanegem

Charlie, I'm not saying that the political islam or islamism has the same influence as the catholic church once did. If I was a religious person myself I would thank God for that on my bare knees... But you have to admit that already islam is causing much more misery in Western Europe than christianity and judaism have done for decades while muslims only form around 5% of the population. And I don't mean the idiots who are willing to kill for ISIS... The muslim population in the UK has doubled in 10 years time due to immigration and the excessive birth rate compared to non-muslims. What do you think will happen if it doubles again in the next 10 years or so and your society doesn't bother to act on it? Do you actually believe they will blend in fine? Though I do not agree with it, the Dutch are known in the world for their "tolerance". Immigrants from Surinam, Indonesia, China and other European countries were all welcomed here and it didn't take long for them to integrate. Of course there were some problems with discrimination as there are always bigots who feel threatened by foreigners. However, those problems were absolutely nothing compared to those we have with immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa. Our liberal politicians are famous for "drinking a cup of tea" with people from the muslim communities for the last 30 years, like you they believe religion is a matter better left to the individual. Look where it got us: jewish schools and synagogues need to be protected by the police, muslim teenagers abusing and spitting on jews when they pass by, Amsterdam is the "gay capital" of Europe but gay couples wouldn't dare anymore to walk hand-in-hand because they will get molested for it, comedians and publishers are censoring themselves because they are scared for repercussions from muslims, there are no-go area's for women who don't dress themselves the way muslims demand them to dress as they are looked upon like "filthy whores" with whom you can do anything you want. I could go on but I told you all this before. These are all things we didn't have before the muslim population grew to it's current numbers so what will happen when their numbers will grow according to expectations? I'm sorry Charlie but I do not share your view on leaving matters to individuals as I'm feeling like being a witness of the self inflicted eradication of European civilization and I'm not looking forward at the upcoming Eurabia with high hopes for better times. You're right, in this matter I'm an old man who believes things were better before islam knocked on the door. However, I do have some valid arguments to so...

Why should it be "without sacrificing the liberal freedoms"? Our ancestors had to make sacrifices to get rid of the all too dominant presence of the catholic church in order to get the relative free and open society you and I are part of nowadays and I for one believe that muslims living in Europe should be willing to make some sacrifices too in order to adept to our societies. The main reason Islam is a threat to our societies is that this religion includes a very specific and detailed judicial system which doesn't agree with our national laws and our way of life in several ways. Make no mistake Charlie, enquiries showed that 45% of European muslims believe that sharia laws should have priority over national laws. That's far too many of them who apparantly can't cope with the liberal values and freedom Europe offers... Of course it's difficult to enforce a change within the muslim communities as there are too many muslims who tend to live together in their own areas where they can hold on to their way of life and their own convictions. However, if you don't try you can be sure there won't be a change before long so let's make a start with demanding that muslims in Europe distance themselves from the specific sharia laws which are alien to national laws and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. As they won't do it by themselves the national authorities will have to campaign to get the message through that the societies muslims live in are not accepting views about women, gay people, other religions, atheists etcetera etcetera which oppose the moral standards. I know, you can't enforce it by law so we'll have to make do with a continuous debate in which we'll have to give them a speed course on European history and show why their religion can't be part of the trias politica. This should be easy to explain looking at the mess most of the muslim countries are in, right? To show that we are serious about our demand we have to take measures like not allowing foreign imams to come to Europe but to endorse imams who had their education in Europe, withdrawel of subsidies to islamic organisations which do not accept our demand and to use positive discrimination on the job market for those who've seen the light. I could think of many more measures but that's where politicians are paid for so let them think for themselves shall we? I would like to see the current islam in Europe to evolve to a more private religion. Like christianity it needs a solid reformation to do so and to realise this I believe there has to be some kind of schism between non-political islam (or moderate islam) and political-islam (or islamism). Of course we need to get rid of the fanatics who sympathise with the latter, they don't belong in Europe agreed?

Charlie, methinks you're being naive when you really believe that the avarage European muslim isn't ruled by the laws of islam because he hasn't heard of the IOC and it's Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. In the Netherlands most mosques within the Turkish community are run by Diyanet, the Turkish Preasidium for Religious Affairs which is part of Erdogans Ministry of General Affairs. When Erdogan came to power the budget of Diyanet became more than one billion euro's, far more than the budget of many other Ministries. It's very clear Erdogan is using Diyanet to control his countryman in the Netherlands and in Germany. At the time of the general elections in Turkey the Diyanet imams told their flock to vote for Erdogan so 70% of the Turks in the Netherlands voted for him. A couple of weeks ago, after the failure of the coup against Erdogan, the Diyanet imams read out aloud a statement which said that the Gülen movement was to blame. It stated that this movement (of the former friend of Erdogan...) is a terrorist organisation like the Kurdish PKK and so the Erdogan fans in the Netherlands are harassing the Turks who sympathise with Fethullah Gülen. Regarding islamic affairs, you can look for yourself what Diyanet stands for, it's the same sh*t as I told you above. Only last month we had a Diyanet imam from a small town in Holland declaring he was not only willing to die for islam but also willing to kill for his faith. What do you think: would this idiot have any influence on the troubled minds of some of the youngsters or not? Then the Saudi's. The Dutch government knows which mosques are funded by Saudi Arabia but they are not willing to make it public like our House of Commons is asking as this would "damage" the relationship with this country. The imams sent from Saudi Arabia are often worse than those from Diyanet, prohibiting muslims in Europe to accept that national laws are above the sharia. I can hear you think that it's up to the authorities to take care of these idiots but they're immediately replaced by other idiots who don't have any connection with the way of life in Western Europe, the authorities are simply failing to get a grip on their muslim communities in this regard. It's a bit daft to state that sharia courts have no legal authority in UK law as your judges state that they're not capable to judge on islamic rules and refer muslim women who want a divorce to a sharia court. We have no sharia courts in the Netherlands so our judges are telling those muslima's they have to go to England to see if they have more luck in your country... Again Charlie, I don't have a problem with European muslims who believe their religion is a private matter and give the finger to the political islam and it's awful sharia laws. Alas there are many muslims in Europe who don't see it this way. There are far more idiot Suni's then there are kind Sufi's and you should wake up before you are caught between islamic fascists on the left and extreme right wingers on the other side because that's where Europe is heading fast when things don't change. As you're an amateur student in history I don't have to tell you the possible outcome of such a clash...

I don't agree SOG, islam is a clear and present danger to western societies. It's not just the nutters who use their religion as an excuse for killing innocents (other muslims included!), it's the whole concept of this faith. Whereas christianity and judaism in Europe were confronted with the Enlightenment which led to people practisizing their faith in a more private manner, islam is still intertwined with politics and legislative matters in a way we shouldn't allow to happen in European countries. Yet, we are allowing islam to get a grip on our societies, for example by tolerating sharia courts, the constraining of the freedom of speech due to islamic sensitivity or not preventing imams getting in who are educated and instructed by governments from countries like Saudi Arabia or Turkey. This way they keep control over their "flock" in Europe and this doesn't help to let these people integrate to say the least. Mind you, all muslim countries are members of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) and in 1990 they announced the Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, this is the islamic answer to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights from 1945. Of course there are some essential differences... The freedom of speech is a bit limited as your opinion has to be in line with the sharia. Article 10 excludes freedom of religion, as a muslim you are not allowed to leave the islam or to convert to another religion and there's even an article (6) that assures the fundamental inequality of women. Surely you will agree that it's not a good thing that muslim countries still control their citizens abroad through mosques in Europe they're eager to finance? Or do you really believe there's no threat at all? Of course I don't have a problem with a so called "moderate" muslim who considers his faith as a private matter and believes the sharia laws are for idiots. Then again I hear the words of Erdogan when he was told by a journalist that his AK party was described as "moderate islamic": 'These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that's it'.

I agree, it would be better to put Hillary in jail.

Oh I have met them too Charlie, one of them even believes I'm going to hell if I don't convert before I die. Who says you can't be a nice person when suffering from a mental illness? Well, maybe I was lucky to meet the ones with a sense of humour, at least they could laugh about George Carlin...

Correct, you need to have a mental illness to really believe the crap any religion will offer you. However, there's only one religion looking for expansion and abolishment from non-islamic laws and has an all-embracing and specific law system that violates basic human rights.

With the "theft of democracy" I was referring to the manipulation within the Democratic Party who favoured Clinton and the mess within the Republican Party which led to the nomination of Trump. There are an awful lot of people who don't want anyone of them... I won't blame you however...

Agreed, Trump is a vulgar man without any class. However, you don't have to worry that he'll make it to the presidency, when needed the outcome of the elections can always be manipulated. And if that doesn't work they can shoot the b*stard. They better do it before the 8th of november though, otherwise Mike Pence will replace him and nobody wants him either... I can imagine Americans - both democrats and republicans - feeling like democracy has been stolen from them. http://yournewswire.com/wikileaks-dnc-committed-election-fraud-against-bernie-sanders/

"Short people got no reason to live..." Hillary brings Steven Colbert in higher spirits too

It seems Assange has something more on Clinton, Michelle Obama coming from the bench to get ready? Well, let's wait and see if he is bluffing...

Who's the little guy he's referring to?

I know, it's a load of... But suppose - in a ideal world - that representatives who have to vote could follow their own heart instead of following orders from their party, don't you think a government would achieve more then they do now?

I know what you mean Sour Mash, you can link the current terrorism to islam but in fact it takes a sad imbecile to act upon some of it's darkest thoughts. The same goes for christianity and judaism, there's enough sh*t to be found in these religions too, there are just not that many christians or jews momentarily who believe it's needed "to spread the word in a violent way". Well, I suppose there aren't many of them but who knows what's lurking in the shadows... Like I said earlier, religion is like a gun. In the hands of the wrong person it can be deadly. Question is why there are so many sad imbeciles to be found within islam, willing to die for their faith and killing as much innocents (other muslims as well...) as possible. Undoubtedly a lack of education, lack of a future and so on has something to do with it but still, how is it possible that a third or fourth generation immigrant in the UK, Belgium or the Netherlands can change into a radicalised nutter so easily? In the Netherlands he gets pampered from the cradle to the grave and yet, it isn't enough? Why is it that there are just a few muslims willing to demonstrate against ISIS while a lecture by some radical imam on the "good works" of Osama Bin Laden is sold out and attracts a lot bigger crowd? How come muslim communities in Belgium or the Netherlands always say they didn't expect someone to leave for Syria to fight with ISIS as he was "such a nice chap"? There's definitely something wrong within those muslim communities but of course you're a racist bigot when you say this. It's the same lot who believe muslims are right when they protest against some cartoon of their prophet or against a comedian who makes a joke on them. Of course it's ok to make a joke of a catholic priest raping some child: "hey, it's satire man!" I know, it's funny but why do you think I'm islamophobic when I can also laugh about a joke on allah? The freedom of speech in the Netherlands is getting more and more limited due to sensitivity amongst muslims who can't adept to western society while being born here. There's just no comedian left who dares to make a joke about them and we can't secure them all like the idiot politician Geert Wilders who is protected all the time and never stays on one address for longer than two weeks. Nope, I don't blame islam itself. I blame the individuals who close their eyes for what's happening and are still tolerating muslim communities to have their own backward ways. Those individuals have blood on their hands.

You're better off without Hillary and Bill also... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LYRUOd_QoM#t=1926

I can understand that Ohio Saint, too bad there are no others to choose from in the States. Then again, in the Netherlands we have around 15 political parties we can choose from for the general elections so the government is always a mix from those parties who need to make compromises. So, in the end a lot of the promises during campaign time are broken as soon as they start to govern... Currently the Dutch government exists of the Dutch equivalent of the Democrate and Republican parties in the US (or the Tories and Labour in the UK), imagine how much they had to compromise... Yet, a government with both Republicans and Democrats in it might be a better thing in your country as there would be less party clutter, maybe then they would actually achieve something in the US...

Maybe this article will help you to get a better picture on the role of Saudi Arabia:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html Though Assad is a b*sterd I guess you can't get rid of him now, especially as the Russians own him: "Assad is a b*sterd but he is our b*stard, the next b*sterd won't be...". So there has to be a deal with Putin in order to proceed things in Syria. With the Clinton witch as President of the US this will be a problem as she already claimed that she would blow Russian jets out of the Syrian sky when she becomes President. The West and the Saudi's created a monster which they can't or do not want to control. There's no proof of course but it wouldn't surprise me if corporate America is involved in this mess. Just like they probably were in the downfall of Gadaffi: https://www.rt.com/news/economy-oil-gold-libya/

Ok, that's clear and I agree there has to be a comprehensive plan to end the war before you step in with troops on the ground. Bombing bridges and power stations could help the Kurds in their fight against ISIL which should eventually help to set free the civilian population. But as you said above, there's always collateral damage and the CIC must always ask himself if it's worth the risk. I don't have any information on that matter so I can't say if those 4.000 killed civilians you mentioned were the result of setting free far more others who were in danger. Can you?

So, it's a deadlock situation for both Clinton and Trump on domestic affairs? All the more reason to look at the foreign policy of the US which brought nothing but trouble with Hillary as Secretary of State... Btw, what's your opinion on Bernie Sanders now? During his entire campaign he was calling Hillary 'a corrupt and bought out corporist', now he is endorsing her... Just politics? Would you rather vote for this corrupt and bought out corporist with an agenda written by people who are really in control than you would vote for the '12-year old kid' who appears to be a free agent?

Point 1: I know, politicians usually lie so what else is new? Point 2: So you agree there's not much chance of Clinton changing things... Point 3: "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

So you agree with them military action against ISIL is needed but you don't want 'boots on the ground' aka we just keep on bombing which already led to 4.000 innocent deaths? I don't get it Tim...

Bolded point 1: I was referring to his remarks about things like the national debt (19 trillion dollars? ) infrastructure and education system. Surely you will agree these things are a mess in the US? Bolded point 2: We've seen the "change" from Obama, if there's any little sign, however small, that Clinton is really going to change things then, please let me know. I can only agree of course that Trump doesn't explain how he will achieve his goals, is Clinton doing any better and does it sound credible to you? Bolded point 3: No, I'm just hoping the FSB will give some credible information on Clinton which will make sure you can't even vote for Hillary as she won't be there anymore...

Yup, but how many innocent civilians have died by the hands of IS in Syria en Iraq so far? How many more need to die before you think we should really do something about it?

For a 12-year old Trump is saying some harsh truths about the deplorable state of the US after so many years of Bushes and Clintons and the likes of them. Surely that's not a guarantee he's going to put his money where his mouth is but on the other side, you know Clinton won't change anything for the better so why would you like to stay on a road going nowhere? As a Dutchman I'm more concerned about the way the US has acted and is acting in the Middle East and North Africa, the result of the policies of the Bushes and Clinton as Secretary of State are devastating for European citizens. If Hillary have her way we're facing another stand-off with Putin and really, Europe does have enough problems already thanks to her. Problems for which we don't even have the beginning of a solution so I hope you don't mind that I keep my fingers crossed and hope she won't be the next President. Putin said his FSB will publish the mails from Hillary to show what kind of monster she is and hopefully this will be something good. I know, Putin is a rotten chap also but as you say, politics is a nasty business.

Hmm, when there's no immediate intervention on the ground I'm afraid ISIS will last longer than we should allow, leaving innocent victims in the hands of these monsters and refugees fleeing to Europe with all the bad consequences following. There's a lot of hypocrisy for sure, the Dutch king went to Saudi Arabia not so long ago with a lot of Dutch companies in his wake, doing business with creeps far worse than the Assad's, Hussein's and Gadaffi's of this world. You don't read or hear much anymore about the situation in Libya for example, a country which is now a failed state any way you look at it. How different things were when Western politicians said Gadaffi had to go, all the controlled media were taking sides back then and the ignorants amongst us couldn't miss why this was a good thing, even after Iraq had fallen apart and had to deal with a civil war inflicted by the West. Gradually Europe is getting paid back for taking part in the so called 'War on Terror', too bad it's always the innocent who are the victims and not the responsible politicians...